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Bansheexero
2020-08-31, 10:43 AM
So, one thing I had been trying to work out in my head for quite some time is how to advance a character either into epic level or into a deity in pathfinder. I realize that there have been some conversions made in an attempt to adapt the 3.0 epic rules, but that was wonky even back in 3.0/3.5 days. There a number of issues that seem to arise from proceeding past level 20, that I feel need to be addressed.

1). Base Attack Bonus - in 3.0 Epic Level Handbook (ELH), regardless of which class you play, after level 20 the BAB slows down to 1/2 progression. While it may not seem significant at first, you can see just how wildly it would affect players who decide to multiclass based on the order in which they do so. A simple example would be a player who is a lvl 20 fighter and a lvl 20 wizard. Based on the order in which he takes said classes, his BAB could be either +30 (fighter first, then wizard) or +20 (wizard first, then fighter), despite both having access to level 9 spells and all fighter's feats. This is a simple example, but it gets even worse if you stagger levels or multiclass into more than 2 classes.

2). Saves - Saving throws suffer a similar fate, since past level 20 in the ELH, all saves gain good progression.

3). Capstones - In Pathfinder, these tend to elicit a strong degree of finality to any given class. Where do you go from there? Expand the capstone? If you set it that you can only reach level 20 in any single class, you are limiting possible character options quite noticeably.

4). Epic Spells - the system in the ELH is extremely messy and wonky, especially given that you not only have to create the spells as very expensive and difficult to craft magic items, you have to succeed on the Spellcraft DC used to create the spell every time you cast it. This might be somewhat remedied by taking spell levels above 9th, but there would need to be a much clearer understanding of the qualitative improvements of spells at each spell level, not merely quantitative improvements.

5). Skill Points - probably less obvious, but with the potential for infinite leveling comes the potential for infinite Intelligence, meaning at some point you will have more skill points than you could fit in all of the limited number of skills you have (outside of the potential variety of Craft, Profession, Lore, and Artistry, which seems like just throwing away skill points after a certain point).

That said, there are a few opportunities beyond character concepts that arise as well, such as the following -

1). Skill Unlocks - where most classes other than Unchained Rogues only get to pick one skill to unlock via the Signature Skill feat, this limitation could be mitigated based on overall character level. More than that, while extremely exaggerated, the ELH had some truly legendary potential skill uses (like swimming up a waterfall or hiding somebody your own size in the square in which you are standing). These could possibly be brought back.

2). Fighting Styles - an interesting example in one of the third party books was a progression past two weapon fighting called, surprise surprise, three weapon fighting which, from what I could ascertain from the description, worked like juggling. Also, there comes potential for expanded style-type feats, and possibly expanding into something akin to style feats for casters, which if somebody is creative enough, could be really interesting.

3). Epic Spells - While the ELH version is extremely wonky, it did have some very interesting and powerful spell ideas. I feel like this might work better if progressed a la Spheres of Power rather than the Vancian system, but finding means by which to create epic level magic talents seems like it could go sideways quickly.

These are just some of the issues and opportunities I've noticed, but no doubt that there are more. As for the other side of the coin, becoming a deity at some point seems like it has similar issues, but feels like a way to further define and develop character concepts. I realize that Mythic Tiers are sort of a compromise, purview specific abilities presented in 3.0 Deities and Demigods, can truly define deific powers (like Life and Death (and its Mass form), artifact crafting, portfolio sense (like Hades being able to sense a person's death 17 months prior and maintains the sensation 17 months afterward), and a bunch more). Interestingly, the Book of Immortals (3rd party) had an interesting way of powering up characters in a vein similar to Mythic Tiers, but also defined your character by removing aspects of free will, and as such created interesting mindsets that feel more specialized as might happen for gods. Still, that was an even messier ruleset than the already confusing epic rules.

Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

aimlessPolymath
2020-08-31, 11:09 AM
I'm a fan of Realms of Chaos's Epic-Level Prestige Classes, personally. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?247756-Librim-Eternia-Tome-of-Epic-Prestige-(Completed) They don't seem that hard to adapt to Pathfinder, though the epic level spellcasting likely needs to be changed.

Alternatively, look at Mythic tiers for a way to add extra oomph to an already level 20 character- as in, "whenever you gain a level while already level 20, gain a mythic tier instead".

The main issue with epic levels is encapsulated in point 3, and to a lesser extent 4. After you've hit 20, you're already functionally 'the best ever' at your class, and you've run out of 'ordinary' abilities to gain. It's difficult to find a 10th level spell that does something qualitatively new and better when Wish exists, so most epic level spells are instead quantitatively large-scale. Fundamentally, a level 20 character is already on the level of gods, compared to the average person, in terms of the effects they can do- so mythic tiers add increased reliability to those abilities, push up defences by adding more redundant save bonuses with surge, etc.

I can get behind adding new combat styles, feats, etc... but I don't think they should be epic-only. A level 18 fighter is serious business- if he wants to try juggling three (or even four) weapons, he should be able to try.

Bansheexero
2020-08-31, 04:30 PM
One of the epic seeds I wish that would have wished made the transition was Mythal. Creating a permanent AoE that grants powers (like flight, invisibility, haste, etc.) or penalties (like the one in Forgotten Realms that drive the dragons inside it insane so they killed each other). It was one of the few that presented a new qualitative difference, combining permanent and contingent spell effects at desired targets.

aimlessPolymath
2020-08-31, 04:34 PM
My read is that you do that by applying spell factors: "Change target/personal to area" (+10/+15), followed by selecting an area of a 20 foot radius (+2), followed by as many instances of "increase area by 100%" (+4 for every x2 factor, I think?), followed by "permanent duration" (x5 cost, always applied last).

Defining conditional targets (e.g. "only dragons") would also fall under spell factors, though in a way determined by the GM based on the type of condition.

Bansheexero
2020-08-31, 04:44 PM
Though, in an odd and rare situation of something being more elegant (but by no means objectively elegant), Mythal was its own Epic Spell seed. I'd have to delve through quite a bit to find the book on it, but it was in the one with Elven High Mages.

aimlessPolymath
2020-08-31, 04:47 PM
Lost Empires of Faerun, I think. A look through a pdf of the book indicates that the rules for one seem to be primarily built on magic item creation rules, rather than the spell seed structure that the Epic Level Handbook uses.

Bansheexero
2020-08-31, 09:24 PM
I also was trying to surpass Mythic Tiers as well, ass deific abilities are on a whole different level. Being able to kill or resurrect en masse like it's an average Tuesday, killing anything that looks at you, crafting artifacts, turning into anything at full power, able to deal full sneak attack damage the round after you hit with a sneak attack as a lingering effect, always rolling natural 20's, having max health for all hit dice, dealing max hit damage for all attacks (coupling with the natural 20 on all rolls, the only reason to roll dice is for the sake of confirmation and gods don't automatically fail on natural 1's), being able to use wish at will, etc. all go way beyond mythic. While I recognize there are some balance issues, as well as it being a sudden jump from mythic to deific, I was trying to find ways to gradually transform them instead of directly applying divine ranks. This is why I was looking to the Book of Immortals, which while clunky, provides a means of gathering energy in ways that it assigns portfolios (such as fire, chaos, life, death, darkness, charm, etc.). The ruleset itself is really . . . let's just call it bad, but the idea behind it is good. It occurs independent of character level or experience (the challenges explicitly provide no experience), but uses a weird skill check system when actually trying to apply your aura to different effects (like weapons or minions). I think refining it and gutting it's overall system to remove some tumors would leave an interesting chassis.

aimlessPolymath
2020-08-31, 11:41 PM
Interesting. I don't know that book, but I do like the idea of an equivalent of "even more mythic-y tiers" turning into deityhood- it feels like a reasonably logical extension. Could you roughly outline the mechanics you'd like to borrow?

Some notes:
-'Crafting' an artifact can be achieved by the Universal Path ability Legendary Item. It'll be irritatingly limited, but it does exist.
-Turning into anything at full power- That's functionally very close to Shapechange, from 3.5- but it got converted to function off the X Shape spells in Pathfinder, so it's more a victim of the edition change than something inherently special. I note that alongside Wish at-will, it feels like an ability that is just 'a 9th level spell, but at-will". It's an expansion in scope and ease of use, but not a fundamentally new power.

I can get behind maximising rolls (inc. damage and hit points) as an expression of divine perfection; note that due to the normal 'automatic success/failure" rules, forcing natural 1s and 20s means that someone with that ability is functionally unassailable except by someone who can negate it (though note the Godslayer feat in Librim Eternia to do just that...)

Repeating all SA damage does feel pretty properly epic.

Bansheexero
2020-09-02, 05:26 PM
Taking a look at Librim Eternia, I am assuming from a glance it is designed for 3.5 rather than Pathfinder. I note this when looking at his segment on piercing effects. Mind blank in PF no longer grants immunity, but +8 to Will saves, and there are piercing effects for non-epic characters as well via capstones, such as one that ignores fire resistance as well as fire immunity. Of course, I would probably halve fire damage vs immunity in that situation. Still, a lot to look over, thanks.