3.X Monk Looking For Great Buffs / Feats / Etc for AB

[Darth Grall]

Hello all, I'm having an issue with a Monk that is actually the first PC I had ever built(Yes I was playing a 3.5 Monk, I was innocent back in the Mid Aughts!), which was built for a long running 3.5 game that was VERY slowly converted to Pathfinder 1E. At this point it's Pathfinder in all but name, with 3.5 skills and a bunch of 3.X feats that got grandfathered in. For instance I'm still a 3.5 Monk, not a PF Monk + there are a few some homebrewed mechanics(Like one mentioned below). So my PC was built for a different time and place than where it is now but by virtue of playing in this game for over a decade, doing a bunch of cool stuff, and getting very lucky my monk has survived to be level 17 and has 5 mythic tiers. The issue is that he's starting to show his age, he's poorly optimized(He's a MAD Monk to start + I rolled only okay stats) so his AB is lackluster compared to some of the other PCs. I can't re-train him(there just isn't the time for it in game, we're in a war vs some Mind Flayer-esque invasion) plus I had intended to make it all the way to level 20 Monk for RP reasons, so I wouldn't change my class anyways for flavor reasons.

However, what I do have is a bunch of Destiny points, a Meta resource meant to reward good roleplay, that I had been stockpiling for a while. I can use these points to do a lot of things(Spend not to die from a fatal blow, nat 20 on roll, etc), but specifically I can buy extra feats and I have enough that I can buy like 5-6 feats in a single go before the tank runs out. I also have access to a level 17 Mythic Wizard who can craft and a pile of gold/resources.

So I am looking for something to make my AB better(I think my AC is fine at 49, with the option to buff it higher with mythic combat expertise & mythic dodge). My WIS is only slightly higher than my STR/DEX so that doesn't help as much as one might think to switch to WIS with Guided or something. If I'd was a less MAD class I could have focused on DEX or WIS more but I lacked precognition here to account for Mythic Weapon Finesse a decade before it's conception. And the best buff I'm working with currently is using a Scroll of Transformation(I have a few) to get full BAB but what I really need is a buff/ability to add another stat to another stat a few times a day or a few +4 attack buffs. Anyone know anything that does that? Or maybe some item that isn't an AoMF/Belt Of Perfection that would help AB? I figure going for manuals might be the way to go but that's a lot of money for relatively little return right now, and maybe there is some chain of feats I'm just blanking on. I'm also considering taking Divine Source to get access to some more consistent buffs, but I'm open to anything.

TL;DR - Playing a Monk who needs a few good buffs to attack, feats/wealth are no object(within reason), 3.5 Material is allowed.

And link to my Monk for reference, so people can see what I'm working with(Yes I have way too many feats already, I am aware): (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15KxXVx9oytRCdOiBcb11_ypQldV4mIDcLNgzGPUqyLQ/edit?usp=sharing)

[Darth Grall]

Also for comparison there's a Dragon Disciple with 50 STR who has an attack suite along the lines of 41/41/41/35/35/35 in his form of the dragon with Mythic(that last for hours due to some polymorph mastery thing) while I'm looking at just 25/25/25/25/20.

I beat him in the AC department by 4 with a 49 AC(Higher with some nova options like Mythic Dodge & but that lag of 16 to hit hurts when the DM is throwing baddies with AC in the 50's to compensate. Saves are basically the same too to rub salt in the wound. I know Monks suck but like not sure what else I can do lol.

[liquidformat]

First off I would check with your DM to see if you can just upgrade to unchained monk from PF that would give you quite a big boost in and of itself without changing much besides using a better pathfinder version of monk. Besides that I would suggest taking snap kick and superior unarmed strike feats from TOB. Besides that depends on what you want to do here are some feat chains you might want to look at:

Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment

Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Dirty Fighting, Broken Fist Mastery I, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Lighting Fists, Broken Fist Mastery II
-If you pickup dodge and mobility then Elusive Target is a good choice too
-Aberrant Blood and Inhuman Reach are quite nice if you go tripping, Serpent Fang could be interesting too.
- don't have to take all of these I just listed all the prerequisites for Broken Fist Mastery I & II but even just improved trip +Knock-down are quite powerful to add.

Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance), Shadow Blade, Craven

Law Devotion, Animal Devotion, or Air Devotion

[Bronk]

TL;DR - Playing a Monk who needs a few good buffs to attack, feats/wealth are no object(within reason), 3.5 Material is allowed.

It looks like you're still just using your unarmed flurry of blows... You could pick up a pair of scorpion kama from the Magic Item Compendium (3.5 book), which let you keep your unarmed damage, but allow you to have weapon bonuses as well.

You could also get a necklace of natural attacks that allows you to directly modify your unarmed attacks (which count as natural attacks because you're a monk). There's a version in Savage Species (3.0 book) or a newer version online.

[liquidformat]

It looks like you're still just using your unarmed flurry of blows... You could pick up a pair of scorpion kama from the Magic Item Compendium (3.5 book), which let you keep your unarmed damage, but allow you to have weapon bonuses as well.

You could also get a necklace of natural attacks that allows you to directly modify your unarmed attacks (which count as natural attacks because you're a monk). There's a version in Savage Species (3.0 book) or a newer version online.

If you are going to use the scorpion kama you could take Weapon Focus (Kama) and Flensing Strike to give your enemies a -4 to most things for a minute.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not very familiar with Pathfinder approaches to this, but the classic 3.5 solution would be to go to your friendly neighborhood copy of the Tome of Battle, take Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance (there's a couple of other good Shadow Hand stances, but everybody likes getting Sneak Attack) and then Shadow Blade, which works as long as you're in a Shadow Hand stance using a Shadow Hand preferred weapon (Unarmed Strike is one, plus at least one other monk special weapon.) Shadow Blade explicitly adds your Dex to your hit bonus, not replaces Str with Dex. It's a bit worse for your typical full Dex focus, because it doesn't remove your -2 from being a 6 Str Halfling or whatever, but it would be better for your situation.

[Darth Grall]

First off I would check with your DM to see if you can just upgrade to unchained monk from PF that would give you quite a big boost in and of itself without changing much besides using a better pathfinder version of monk. Besides that I would suggest taking snap kick and superior unarmed strike feats from TOB. Besides that depends on what you want to do here are some feat chains you might want to look at:

Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment

Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Dirty Fighting, Broken Fist Mastery I, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Lighting Fists, Broken Fist Mastery II
-If you pickup dodge and mobility then Elusive Target is a good choice too
-Aberrant Blood and Inhuman Reach are quite nice if you go tripping, Serpent Fang could be interesting too.
- don't have to take all of these I just listed all the prerequisites for Broken Fist Mastery I & II but even just improved trip +Knock-down are quite powerful to add.

Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance), Shadow Blade, Craven

Law Devotion, Animal Devotion, or Air DevotionNoted, I think he'd allow the switch after some downtime but I think I'm locked in to 3.5 monk for now. But definitely something to look into later! Superior Unarmed Strike doesn't work for me as I'm level 17 and already maxed on monk's damage die on the progression for my size, I'll add Snap Kick to the list though.

Definitely a pile of feats, but I'll look through this list a bit later to see what overlap I have on some of these feats and what makes sense.

I actually already have a few ToB manuevers and stances, namely Cloak of Deception, Martial Stance(Giant Killer), & Martial Study(Counter Charge). If I make it to epic levels I was going to prestige into the sun-shadow monk class from their. I would totally pick up a few more though! I'm not sure if Craven's an option but I'll look into the other ones. IIRC I was interested in the flanking stance(Island of Blades) previously since it's more easily on.

Also I was not aware of the devotion feats previously! I think I'll definitely be going Law for the AB!


It looks like you're still just using your unarmed flurry of blows... You could pick up a pair of scorpion kama from the Magic Item Compendium (3.5 book), which let you keep your unarmed damage, but allow you to have weapon bonuses as well.

You could also get a necklace of natural attacks that allows you to directly modify your unarmed attacks (which count as natural attacks because you're a monk). There's a version in Savage Species (3.0 book) or a newer version online.I actually have some handwraps with the Amulet of Might Fists enhancement at +5, so I'm already getting an enhancement bonus. That said, Kama are cool but I also have a half a dozen feats for augmenting my unarmed attacks, can you use freezing the lifeblood or stunning fist though Kama? If no I think I'll have to pass there!

If you are going to use the scorpion kama you could take Weapon Focus (Kama) and Flensing Strike to give your enemies a -4 to most things for a minute.
That is rad, but I think I'd want to still emphasize my unarmed debuffs(for now!)

I'm not very familiar with Pathfinder approaches to this, but the classic 3.5 solution would be to go to your friendly neighborhood copy of the Tome of Battle, take Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance (there's a couple of other good Shadow Hand stances, but everybody likes getting Sneak Attack) and then Shadow Blade, which works as long as you're in a Shadow Hand stance using a Shadow Hand preferred weapon (Unarmed Strike is one, plus at least one other monk special weapon.) Shadow Blade explicitly adds your Dex to your hit bonus, not replaces Str with Dex. It's a bit worse for your typical full Dex focus, because it doesn't remove your -2 from being a 6 Str Halfling or whatever, but it would be better for your situation.
Oh! I didn't realize that there was Shadow Blade feat did that, I had it confused with the technique of the same name. I will look at getting that then as well! Are there any other feats that stack multiple stats? I have a pretty wide spread of decent stats but wanted to double check.

[Bronk]

I actually have some handwraps with the Amulet of Might Fists enhancement at +5, so I'm already getting an enhancement bonus. That said, Kama are cool but I also have a half a dozen feats for augmenting my unarmed attacks, can you use freezing the lifeblood or stunning fist though Kama? If no I think I'll have to pass there!

That is rad, but I think I'd want to still emphasize my unarmed debuffs(for now!)

Probably not, but are your debuffs any good if they can't hit?

I'd switch your Amulet of Mighty Fists, which only gives you an enhancement bonus, and switch it with a Necklace of Natural Attacks +5 (Unarmed Strike), because you can also add other weapon enhancements to that, even ones that further enhance your attack bonus like the banes. Additions like magebane affect quite a few people and monsters.

You can further enhance your stats by finding an artificer and hiring them to switch item's enhancement bonuses to other bonuses (sacred, etc.) so that they all stack instead of overlapping.

[tyckspoon]

I actually have some handwraps with the Amulet of Might Fists enhancement at +5, so I'm already getting an enhancement bonus. That said, Kama are cool but I also have a half a dozen feats for augmenting my unarmed attacks, can you use freezing the lifeblood or stunning fist though Kama? If no I think I'll have to pass there!


Adding the Ki Focus property to it would definitely allow this - the Pathfinder reprint version of it explicitly clarifies that you can apply any effects that can be applied via Stunning Fist. More generously, this could be argued that the intent is that any effects that you can spend Ki on could transfer through the weapon. (The original 3.5 version just says Stunning Fist, which could exclude things that consume Stunning Fist uses but aren't actually the Stunning Fist feat.) It's only +1, although unless you're going to be doing some further optimization I don't know if it's worth paying extra for the weapon over just getting some weapon properties for your existing wraps/unarmed strikes.

[emeraldstreak]

First step is to acquire a permanent source of Greater Mighty Wallop and always hit with the damage of a Colossal creature. You can do this via eternal wand, pearl of power given to an ally, etc.

You're of high enough level to have enough Use Magic Device to activate wands without issue. Still, get a spellcasting ring.

Divine Power can give full BAB.

[Seerow]

Is Psionics (either 3.5 or PF version) a thing in your games? Because Psychic Reformation is totally a thing that you can pay a trivial amount of gold (~5k for a 4th level power at manifester level 17, plus 5gp per exp for 850 exp spent) to have manifested on you and let you rebuild to at the very least a different iteration of the Monk class that better fits your groups current optimization levels. I understand not wanting to go into months of downtime for retraining, but at the levels you're talking about (17 with 5 mythic tiers?!), if you have the time available to craft a couple items, you have the time available to make this change.


I'm not very familiar with Pathfinder approaches to this, but the classic 3.5 solution would be to go to your friendly neighborhood copy of the Tome of Battle, take Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance (there's a couple of other good Shadow Hand stances, but everybody likes getting Sneak Attack) and then Shadow Blade, which works as long as you're in a Shadow Hand stance using a Shadow Hand preferred weapon (Unarmed Strike is one, plus at least one other monk special weapon.) Shadow Blade explicitly adds your Dex to your hit bonus, not replaces Str with Dex. It's a bit worse for your typical full Dex focus, because it doesn't remove your -2 from being a 6 Str Halfling or whatever, but it would be better for your situation.


Shadow Blade adds to damage, not hit bonus. Getting a second attribute to hit is very rare, and I don't think can be done without class levels.



As far as suggestions besides a rebuild, are custom items on the table? Someone else mentioned divine power, would it be reasonable for you to get a custom item that grants that as an always on or free action x/day effect? Wraith Strike is another great one, let your Dragon buddy have the glory of high numbers while you just ignore enemy defenses and stab them through their armor with your wraith-fist. Or Divine Favor with a flat +3 to hit/damage as a 1st level spell effect would be really cheap if an option. Also generally just getting smaller makes you more accurate. Something like shrink person gives you +1 to hit for the size category, and another +1 to hit for increased dex. Or going all in on that Minute Form drops you all the way down to fine getting you +8 dex and 4 reduced size categories, netting +8 to hit compared to a medium creature, and boosting your damage back to competitive levels is relatively easily compared to boosting hit-rates.

Also, what sorts of buffs are you already getting from allies? How long do your combat days generally last? Law Devotion provides a huge boost to accuracy (at your level it's like a +7 to hit) but only lasts for 1 minute once a day unless you can spend turn undead attempts to fuel it or you want to take it multiple times.

[Darth Grall]

Probably not, but are your debuffs any good if they can't hit?

I'd switch your Amulet of Mighty Fists, which only gives you an enhancement bonus, and switch it with a Necklace of Natural Attacks +5 (Unarmed Strike), because you can also add other weapon enhancements to that, even ones that further enhance your attack bonus like the banes. Additions like magebane affect quite a few people and monsters.

You can further enhance your stats by finding an artificer and hiring them to switch item's enhancement bonuses to other bonuses (sacred, etc.) so that they all stack instead of overlapping.Ha, that's fair that hitting is a priority!

Hm, I hadn't seen Necklace of Natural Attacks before! That's neat. I'll add that to the pile of things to check with the DM that they are allowed.

Changing bonus types is a thing?! I didn't know that was even an option, I'll look into that one immediately, I think we have an artificer player in one of the other groups but I'll have to double check.

Adding the Ki Focus property to it would definitely allow this - the Pathfinder reprint version of it explicitly clarifies that you can apply any effects that can be applied via Stunning Fist. More generously, this could be argued that the intent is that any effects that you can spend Ki on could transfer through the weapon. (The original 3.5 version just says Stunning Fist, which could exclude things that consume Stunning Fist uses but aren't actually the Stunning Fist feat.) It's only +1, although unless you're going to be doing some further optimization I don't know if it's worth paying extra for the weapon over just getting some weapon properties for your existing wraps/unarmed strikes.That's a fair point, definitely something for me to consider though because I don't think adding properties is an option for my wraps since AoMF caps at +5, and since that's what my wraps are I think I'm similarly capped on abilities there. This whole conversation makes me wonder though if it'd be better to just get a permanent Greater, Magic Fang(Or a Necklace of Natural Weapons if allowed) cast on my character & get the wraps remade as just weapon abilities.

First step is to acquire a permanent source of Greater Mighty Wallop and always hit with the damage of a Colossal creature. You can do this via eternal wand, pearl of power given to an ally, etc.

You're of high enough level to have enough Use Magic Device to activate wands without issue. Still, get a spellcasting ring.

Divine Power can give full BAB.

That Wallop spell seems silly good, I love it! Gives me Gear 3 Luffy Vibes lol. But yeah, I have a good chunk of UMD(+21).

Divine Power is one that I was looking at, but my source of spells has been the Wizard and they don't have divine spells so I've been relying on Transformation to give me full BAB instead. That said, I'll look into it, see if they can make something with a cleric or whomever.

Is Psionics (either 3.5 or PF version) a thing in your games? Because Psychic Reformation is totally a thing that you can pay a trivial amount of gold (~5k for a 4th level power at manifester level 17, plus 5gp per exp for 850 exp spent) to have manifested on you and let you rebuild to at the very least a different iteration of the Monk class that better fits your groups current optimization levels. I understand not wanting to go into months of downtime for retraining, but at the levels you're talking about (17 with 5 mythic tiers?!), if you have the time available to craft a couple items, you have the time available to make this change.There aren't any Psionics, or at least as far as I understand they exist but aren't available for PCs because there aren't any on the DM's homebrew plane. And the issue is that my Monk is busy, but the wizard has a ring of sustenance and can both adventure(generating some free time) and craft and has some feats to speed up their ability to craft so it's surprisingly more accessible than actual retraining right now.

As far as suggestions besides a rebuild, are custom items on the table? Someone else mentioned divine power, would it be reasonable for you to get a custom item that grants that as an always on or free action x/day effect? Wraith Strike is another great one, let your Dragon buddy have the glory of high numbers while you just ignore enemy defenses and stab them through their armor with your wraith-fist. Or Divine Favor with a flat +3 to hit/damage as a 1st level spell effect would be really cheap if an option. Also generally just getting smaller makes you more accurate. Something like shrink person gives you +1 to hit for the size category, and another +1 to hit for increased dex. Or going all in on that Minute Form drops you all the way down to fine getting you +8 dex and 4 reduced size categories, netting +8 to hit compared to a medium creature, and boosting your damage back to competitive levels is relatively easily compared to boosting hit-rates.Oh, custom items are on the table(I have handwraps of mighty fists instead of an amulet for instance, as well as flying cloak of resistance). Wraith Strike & Divine Favor(as others have mentioned) seems pretty solid though, I'll try to see if I can get something custom for those or if not I'll just probably get wand or something.

Minute Form seems rad, but doesn't it work with Shadow Blade to reduce my STR which would counter act my add of any DEX damage? Seems counter intuitive without replacing my STR as my damage source which I'm not sure I can actually do right now(Again, I don't have mythic weapon finesse) and wouldn't it reduce my damage die to account for the size? I know damage die aren't everything but still seems like a bit of a nonbo for me at least, even if getting a size bonus would be nice.

Also, what sorts of buffs are you already getting from allies? How long do your combat days generally last? Law Devotion provides a huge boost to accuracy (at your level it's like a +7 to hit) but only lasts for 1 minute once a day unless you can spend turn undead attempts to fuel it or you want to take it multiple times.As far as buffs from allies I don't think I'm getting much of anything, partly because of SR making buffs awkward sometimes. The wizard though does hit me with a Mythic Heroism though when she can, which is a nice +4 + grants an extra attack like Haste, but that's like it these days. Most everyone else has a ton of self-buffs or tries to nuke it from orbit.

Combats are pretty fast though, but I think that with an upcoming illithid invasion that we'll end up in more of a siege situation with longer combats or at least a lot of them. I did pick up Law Devotion because of it's flexibility but it's a really nice boss ability for those hard fights.

[Seerow]

1) For spell resistance interfering with buffs, you can lower it as a Standard action. You're playing a Monk in the middle of a bunch of casters, it is not outrageous for you to ask for some support in the form of long term buffs. Find some with 10min/lvl or hour/level durations and have the casters put them up for you at the start of the day. Also keep an eye out for any group buffs the group may have access to that are not being used. (For example I'm playing an 18th level Persist Cleric who does have a lot of buffs going only on himself, but the whole party is getting Recitation and Elation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful at the start of the day. If you have a party member capable of similar shenanigans, that's +6 to hit right there.

2) If the Psionics don't exist they don't exist, but I would at least ask about it for the DM, see if maybe the Wizard can go plane hopping during his extra 6 hours a day to track someone down for you. Because it's a standard action manifestation, 6 seconds rather than months of retraining, and you're set.

3) Re: Minute form, you do no damage if you don't hit. With how far below average your to-hit is, it doesn't really matter what your damage per hit is.

Say you're currently a Medium Monk with Greater Mighty Wallop to make your fists deal Collosal equivalent damage, you've got Shadow Blade and Assassin Stance, Craven, and around 24 str/24 dex (just rough estimates from you mentioning your stats are fairly spread out and lower than would be preferred at your level).

You've got your attack routine of 25/25/25/25/20/15 dealing 12d8+14+2d6+17 (average 92 per hit). If you're up against a 40 AC creature (doesn't seem unreasonable given someone else in your party has a +40 to hit base) you've got 30% on your first 4 attacks, and 5% on your last two, for an average of about 1.3 hits for a total of 120 damage per round.

Bump that to-hit bonus up by nothing at all except for the +12 from Minute Form and you've got an attack bonus of 37/37/37/37/32/27. Your damage does drop by 4 size categories and -10 strength, but goes up +8 dex, so ends up as 2d10+13+2d6+17 (average 48 per hit). With that attack bonus you now hit 90% of the time on primary attacks, 65% on the tertiary, and 40% on the last attack, for an average of 4.65 average hits per round, averaging 223.2 damage per round, close to doubling your damage on a full attack.

If you do eventually get Mythic Weapon Finesse to swap out your str to damage for dex to damage, then you end up even further ahead, because that'd be another net +9 damage on the second example, bumping damage per round up to 265. Also if you weren't planning to use Greater Mighty Wallop, the comparison gets even closer since that is making up 43 of the damage per hit in the regular sized example, so instead of going from 53 average dice damage down to 11, you go from 11 down to 4.

Now all of that isn't to say that Minute Form is definitely the way to go and absolutely use it. I've personally never bothered with it because I don't like the idea of playing Ant Man. Just wanted to illustrate how relatively important hitting is compared to just buffing your damage per attack.

4) In your post you mentioned getting a Wand or something. If you have UMD and can use wands on your own that's definitely a way to get access to a lot of the buffs we've been talking about. Also consider checking out Metamagic Wand Grips in complete mage. I don't have it handy right now, but I believe they let you spend extra charges from the wand to add metamagic feats to spells cast from the wand. You should be able to use UMD to fake having the feat you want to apply. Could be a way to get access to some low level persisted spells in a way that is cheaper/more efficient than a regular custom item.

[King of Nowhere]

playing a monk and having a similar limitation, i found (courtesy of this forum) two neat ways to throw gold at this problem.

1) since you mentioned having ToB manuevers, there is a weapon enchantment that gives a +3 to hit when you are using a manuever of a specific school. if you are using a stance, it always applies. it's normally a weapon buff, but find a way to apply it to your unarmed strike (generally a custom item) and you can get an untyped +3
2) divine favor is +3 to hit and damage, too bad it's range: personal. but you can get a custom item to cast the spell on yourself a few times per day. if you are rich, you can get an item that cast it quickened, so you don't need to prepare in advance.
3) same, but with divine power. enjoy full BAB.

combining those should get you from +25 to +35. furthermore, if you take improved trip, you can trip most humanoid opponents, which is a further +4 to hit them.
and you can also get buffs from your casters. i recomment greater heroism, if they can spare a 6th level slot.

aside from that, low offensive potential is the monk's key weakness. i recommend to compensate by milking your defensive abilities for all the fun they are worth. my monk's goal is to become as unstoppable as possible, and he's now probably the only creature in the whole campaign world that the (fairly well optimized) party wizard would have real trouble killing. my common answer when asked to make a saving throw is "it's not 1, so, passed", and my touch ac is high enough that even true strike is not a guarantee of hitting. plus spell resistance. plus a lot of skills to get out of sticky situations. i am the party scout by virtue of being the guy that can survive and escape even if i am discovered and gangpiled by the enemy boss. i also am in charge of finding and disarming traps, which i do by running around hallways
and it's a lot of fun to roleplay this guy with a leeroy jenkins attitude who keeps doing all the crazy dangerous stuff that would get anyone else killed, likes doing it, and can do it with impunity.