Wealth in Forgotten Realms

[Miele]

I was wondering if any of you have a source that can detail how much is the income of lower class people (average salary-based worker) and up to the riches of nations, I'm interested about this regarding the Forgotten Realms.

The only reference I found at a quick glance is an extract from Timeless by R.A. Salvatore:


Regis did some quick calculations and tried not to gasp. A long ton, a tonne, of platinum would be more than a hundred thousand coins, valued at ten gold pieces each! No wonder Clan Stoneshaft had come south with an army guarding their carts. The only wonder was why a horde of dragons hadn’t sniffed out such a treasure and descended upon them.
And where had a clan of dwarves Regis had only barely heard of come up with that kind of a haul? Bruenor, the most powerful dwarf king in the north—at least the north, he acknowledged—would have to empty the treasuries of both Mithral Hall and Gauntlgrym, and likely call in a favor from Citadel Adbar, to approach that fortune.

I found also a comment on THIS (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/93982/how-wealthy-are-the-rich-in-the-forgotten-realms) thread stating the following:


For the sake of those who are not mathematically inclined, there are 2,240 lbs in a tonne, and 50 pp in a pound. That means the transaction involved around 1,120,000 gp worth of pp.

Bruenor can't raise above 1 million coins with the (liquid) wealth of 2 kingdoms, according to Regis and for the sake of the discussion, let's say Regis was right in this case.
This would place the average weekly (I know it's a Tenday in FR, just want this to be more practical for a moment) pay for a laborer at... 1gp? 50ish per year on a good year? A city guard may earn maybe 50% more? Twice that? Let's say 75 to 100 gp per year maybe.

At page 157 of the PHB a Poor lifestyle is 2sp per day and right above a modest one is 1gp per day: 75gp per year and 365 gp per year respectively, which kinda disagrees with my above estimation, unless guards are Poor and workers are between Poor and Squalid.

Now this makes me wonder a few things, to explain myself better I'll take as example the beginning of Descent into Avernus (no spoilers I promise).
A certain NPC promises to pay 200 gp in total to the PC party (of 4 to 6 people) if they do something that could be probably done by the NPC employers (but they are too busyyyyy), which may or may not be paid above the average worker salary for their work. I'm trying hard to not spoil anything, but it's really the first thing that happens in the book, so we're quite safe I think.

So the PC party can earn what basically amount to a ridicolous sum (6 months of paychecks for EACH of them, if the party is of 4 players) for a job well done. That should be put in front of players to see things under the right perspective at the very least!

Maybe I got my numbers wrong, but I love to introduce scale of reference for my players: I print out the calendar and have them keep track of each adventuring day, I'm quite happy to keep track of encumbrance (up to a point at least) and I actually *care* about the gold they get, which is why I always try to have a grasp of how much is 1 gp in understandable terms. It's those little things that contribute to the suspension of disbelief, without being a burden to manage constantly, in my opinion.

[Evaar]

If I recall correctly, the average daily income for a skilled laborer is 1 silver. I can't recall where I read that, it might just be from the PHB and not Forgotten Realms specific. But it would seem to line up with the numbers you suggest.

[Brutalitops]

In general an unskilled laborer goes for 2 silver pieces a day and a skilled laborer 2 gold pieces a day.

But you get what you pay for.

[KorvinStarmast]

If I recall correctly, the average daily income for a skilled laborer is 1 silver. I can't recall where I read that, it might just be from the PHB and not Forgotten Realms specific. But it would seem to line up with the numbers you suggest. I recall from a naval history class about 30 years ago that the wage of an oarsman on a galley in ancient Greece (around the time of the Peloponnesian War) was a silver coin (drachma) per day.

I need to find those notes, but I think that's about right.

[Unoriginal]

To put things in perspective: at the time of 5e's adventure modules, the funds that Lord Everember embezzled from Waterdeep's treasury amount to one full million gold pieces. In cash.

It is a lot of money, but the city was basically unaffected by this loss in term of daily functioning and the like. It's still able to send relief funds to another city which they're allied with, after it was hit by a disaster.

But it is also noted that if the richest family of Waterdeep, the Cassalanters, *could* gather a million in cash by themselves, spending or losing that amount would basically leave them ruined.



In general an unskilled laborer goes for 2 silver pieces a day and a skilled laborer 2 gold pieces a day.

But you get what you pay for.

This is correct.

[jjordan]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584647-Economics

My take on it, but not Forgotten Realms specific.

[Evaar]

To put things in perspective: at the time of 5e's adventure modules, the funds that Lord Everember embezzled from Waterdeep's treasury amount to one full million gold pieces. In cash.

Minor correction, it's actually a half million.

[Dork_Forge]

To put things in perspective: at the time of 5e's adventure modules, the funds that Lord Everember embezzled from Waterdeep's treasury amount to one full million gold pieces. In cash.

It is a lot of money, but the city was basically unaffected by this loss in term of daily functioning and the like. It's still able to send relief funds to another city which they're allied with, after it was hit by a disaster.


I believe it was half a million gold, it's also worth noting that whilst it says he embezzled it, it could have happened over time instead of in one go (as embezzlement tends to be). Still a lot of money to be sure, but more reasonable for a prosperous city like Waterdeep to absorb (in the campaign they also want it back something fierce, so it clearly still has a lot of value ot them).

[Asisreo1]

In general an unskilled laborer goes for 2 silver pieces a day and a skilled laborer 2 gold pieces a day.

But you get what you pay for.
Let's not forget that they must pay for living expenses. A unskilled laborer can live a poor lifestyle paycheck-to-paycheck. If you count them as "practicing a profession," they get the moderate lifestyle and can accumulate roughly 60sp a month on top, 6 gp.

Think about that next time you gain hundreds of thousands of gold.

[Unoriginal]

Minor correction, it's actually a half million.


I believe it was half a million gold

You're correct, it's half a million. Sorry OP, it was a while since I DMed this adventure.



it's also worth noting that whilst it says he embezzled it, it could have happened over time instead of in one go (as embezzlement tends to be). Still a lot of money to be sure, but more reasonable for a prosperous city like Waterdeep to absorb (in the campaign they also want it back something fierce, so it clearly still has a lot of value ot them).

Oh to be sure it has a lot of value to Waterdeep still, but my point was that it's not like the city is ruined without it.

Meanwhile the Cassalanters are noted to be able to pay a million gold pieces, but that it would bankrupt them to do so. And they're currently the richest individuals in Waterdeep.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm always struck by this disparity (between adventurers and the presumed economic state of nations and power players) when players are handing out gold pieces right and left, as if silver (and copper) are dimes and pennies and golds are only dollars. Like "yeah, I tip the stable boy a gold", even at low levels.

But really, economics is hard. And boring. So most writers screw them up badly.

One other side note--the prices given in the PHB are heavily rounded and flattened (ie no or little variation for situations). I'd guess that really there's a wide variation of "wages" , with many farm laborers working for room and board and the occasional coin, while others (still in the "unskilled" category) are making much more in actual coin. And costs of living also vary wildly from place to place and situation to situation. But trying to implement that in a game system would be hard. And boring. So they don't.

And 5e isn't trying to be a world-simulator--the rules are there mostly for adventurers and adventuring. Maybe laborers charge adventurers extra for services--both "soak the rich"[0] and danger pay. So if NPCs are hiring NPCs, they're not getting paid 2sp/2gp per day. Nor are they paying the same costs for upkeep, exactly. Or they're bartering services for stays.

But I'd say that yes, most mid/high-level adventurers are filthy rich. By tier 3, they're rolling in the GDP of small kingdoms, even not counting the value of their magic items. By tier 4 they're walking around with the GDP of mid/large-sized kingdoms in their bags of holding. Part of me wonders how the locals look at it. Do they change the prices on all the "adventurer" goods to fleece the rich clueless adventurers? Do they treat them as walking money bags, liable to drop coin if you say the right words? Do they (especially the wealthy ones) resent them for getting so rich so fast?

It also makes me laugh a bit (internally) when players want to "go into business" or whatever to earn money, when they already have bank-vaults of cash just lying around and each treasure hoard is measured in the thousands of gold (even by level 5 or so), not counting the priceless items it may contain.

[0] I ran into this myself while living in Eastern Europe. The group of Americans I was with were shocked to find out that we were paying something like 3x the going rate for the apartments we were in. And the locals we worked with were some combination of furious on our behalf and highly amused. Turns out "soaking the (presumed rich) foreigners" was something of a local custom in that area. When the locals helped us negotiate new rents, we got much larger, nicer apartments for much less.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Our 18th level party has a cash stack of around 130k last I checked. That's only including the pure coinage, adding in the value of our assorted gems/magic items/baubles that we have stashed away (as in, are not using) would easily bump us up to 300k, assuming we can find a seller for the Magic Items part, with Gems and valuable baubles only (mostly art and sculptures) we'd probably settle a lot closer to 225k.

Now if we included the value of the magic items we do use... I couldn't honestly place a value on it, we've got two one of a kind artifact items and a handful of legendary between the 4 of us. Really lowballing it would put it at 750k.


Oh to be sure it has a lot of value to Waterdeep still, but my point was that it's not like the city is ruined without it.

Meanwhile the Cassalanters are noted to be able to pay a million gold pieces, but that it would bankrupt them to do so. And they're currently the richest individuals in Waterdeep.

Which is one of the several reasons we're not on good terms with them, as you mentioned that Hoard of Dragons was kind of a big deal for them and we gave it right back to the city. Turns out to have been the right investment in the long run, considering it gave us the opportunity for a long run to begin with. They're not happy that our success in thwarting them (unintentionally, we were dealing with Xanathar in our playthrough) has also spearheaded us into being their natural enemies.

On topic: Wealth is just kind of crazy in 5e in general. Our party has all of this cash but next to nothing to spend it on. We could invest in ships and export our Ale, we could probably buy out the entire group of businesses in Trollskull Alley (or at least a partnership that would eventually pay for itself) or we could simple retire, move into the Sea Ward and bug our good friend and neighbor Mirt the totally not important ex adventurer.

But since we're not retiring and managing all of that behind the scenes would be a hassle for the DM, it just kind of... Piles up, and we don't exactly portray ourselves as wealthy beyond the obviously magical equipment.

[Unoriginal]

On topic: Wealth is just kind of crazy in 5e in general. Our party has all of this cash but next to nothing to spend it on. We could invest in ships and export our Ale, we could probably buy out the entire group of businesses in Trollskull Alley (or at least a partnership that would eventually pay for itself) or we could simple retire, move into the Sea Ward and bug our good friend and neighbor Mirt the totally not important ex adventurer.

But since we're not retiring and managing all of that behind the scenes would be a hassle for the DM, it just kind of... Piles up, and we don't exactly portray ourselves as wealthy beyond the obviously magical equipment.

Well I've said it before and I'll say it again: 5e semi-accidentally showcases the meaninglessness of acquiring money as a goal in itself.

The only purpose of money is to live like kings, spend it on things you like, or spend it on other goals that are expensive. But most PCs actually have no idea what to do with their cash or see no interest in living in luxury.

On the topic of spending that money, IIRC you're playing a Paladin in your Waterdeep campaign, right? Have you thought about setting up charities for the sick, homeless & poor? That should take quite a bit of funds.

[ProsecutorGodot]

On the topic of spending that money, IIRC you're playing a Paladin in your Waterdeep campaign, right? Have you thought about setting up charities for the sick, homeless & poor? That should take quite a bit of funds.

Correct, and the thought of philanthropy has crossed my mind (it seems to be a popular way of getting your noble name out of the mud) but just because an every growing stack of money that doesn't get used bothers me doesn't mean my party feels the same. I think most of them view it as a score meter.

I think the only "expensive" thing (other than magic items) that we've purchased was having the head of the Ulitharid we killed preserved and put above our fireplace.

[KorvinStarmast]

But most PCs actually have no idea what to do with their cash or see no interest in living in luxury. Buy gems that get consumed in spell components for certain crucial spells.

My Tier 3 Fighter had a necklace that he kept under his shirt/armor. In it were 3 x 500 GP diamonds. The specific purpose of that necklace was so that the cleric had a diamond to hand if he needed to raise the Fighter. Or, someone we found dead. We raised the dead storm giant princess (Rift of Frost Giants, TOYP) using one of my fighter's diamonds.

For some adventures, hire mercs.

[ProsecutorGodot]

My Tier 3 Fighter had a necklace that he kept under his shirt/armor. In it were 3 x 500 GP diamonds. The specific purpose of that necklace was so that the cleric had a diamond to hand if he needed to raise the Fighter. Or, someone we found dead. We raised the dead storm giant princess (Rift of Frost Giants, TOYP) using one of my fighter's diamonds.
When I got platinum bands made for warding bond I didn't have the thought to also put diamonds in them and I've regretted it since. Currently we store our diamonds in a many handed pouch (which I'm only just noticing didn't make the final cut as an infusion) but I'd rather have them more immediately accessible in case of emergency.

[loki_ragnarock]

I'm always struck by this disparity (between adventurers and the presumed economic state of nations and power players) when players are handing out gold pieces right and left, as if silver (and copper) are dimes and pennies and golds are only dollars. Like "yeah, I tip the stable boy a gold", even at low levels.


I once heard a story that before the Beatles got someone to manage their money, they had bought a King Louis XIV desk.

That had actually been used by King Louis.

That they were using as a desk.


I once heard a story about Elvis where he pulled into a diner with a pink Cadillac.

The waitress talked about his car and how lovely it was.

He gave her the keys and told her she could have it.


Once you reach a certain level of wealth, maybe it's just kind of like that?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Once you reach a certain level of wealth, maybe it's just kind of like that?

Yeah. But the ones I'm thinking of (after talking with the players) came because they just didn't conceptualize the value of a gold piece.

[Luccan]

Yeah. But the ones I'm thinking of (after talking with the players) came because they just didn't conceptualize the value of a gold piece.

In my experience, a lot of DMs undervalue anything less than a gold piece as well. If the majority of wages were in copper or if the books explained most people have their meager wealth in their home and tools, perhaps it would be better understood how much gold is worth

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my experience, a lot of DMs undervalue anything less than a gold piece as well. If the majority of wages were in copper or if the books explained most people have their meager wealth in their home and tools, perhaps it would be better understood how much gold is worth

Agreed. When bandits are walking around with dozens of gold each, or commoner hovels have dozens of golds of new shiny equipment there, it's pretty easy to lose sight of the value of things.

[loki_ragnarock]

Yeah. But the ones I'm thinking of (after talking with the players) came because they just didn't conceptualize the value of a gold piece.

While I accept that something to work on with a player, it certainly makes a bit of sense for these characters.

A starting fighter comes with a fairly huge amount of wealth: 50-200gp. They start out doing pretty good.

Even a monk starts with 5-20gp, which is a sizeable chunk change compared to your typical peasant.

Sure, people are supposed to spend it on starting gear, but that starting gear represents... what? At 2 silver pieces a day, that peak adventuring poverty starting monk represents 25 days of work. The poorest starting fighter? 250 days of work.
For the non working class - barristers or skilled craftsmen making 2gp a day - it's not as vast a sum in terms of time, but now adventurers are looking at wealth on the scale of a doctor or lawyer. Sure the poorest monk represents two and a half days of work, but the richest fighter is still 100 days of the top earners in a society. So... something like 1/3 of a years wages for person making $200,000 - $300,000 a year.

Adventurers are kind of obnoxiously wealthy from the get go, walking around with most of a month to most of year on their person at level one, and it only (typically) goes up from there. It makes sense that the characters would almost universally lose touch with the value of money when coming from that starting point.

[Luccan]

While I accept that something to work on with a player, it certainly makes a bit of sense for these characters.

A starting fighter comes with a fairly huge amount of wealth: 50-200gp. They start out doing pretty good.

Even a monk starts with 5-20gp, which is a sizeable chunk change compared to your typical peasant.

Sure, people are supposed to spend it on starting gear, but that starting gear represents... what? At 2 silver pieces a day, that peak adventuring poverty starting monk represents 25 days of work. The poorest starting fighter? 250 days of work.
For the non working class - barristers or skilled craftsmen making 2gp a day - it's not as vast a sum in terms of time, but now adventurers are looking at wealth on the scale of a doctor or lawyer. Sure the poorest monk represents two and a half days of work, but the richest fighter is still 100 days of the top earners in a society. So... something like 1/3 of a years wages for person making $200,000 - $300,000 a year.

Adventurers are kind of obnoxiously wealthy from the get go, walking around with most of a month to most of year on their person at level one, and it only (typically) goes up from there. It makes sense that the characters would almost universally lose touch with the value of money when coming from that starting point.

That assumes starting equipment was directly purchased by the character. There are plenty of background reasons you might have it that don't involve your character having real affluence. These come to mind immediately: parting gifts from a mentor (where else does a wizard get a spellbook?), military equipment (kept as a service reward or simply because no one actually asked for it back), ill-gotten goods, or being the only stuff you've ever owned (and thus actually a very paltry sum compared to the average life of work, depending on background).

[Asisreo1]

That assumes starting equipment was directly purchased by the character. There are plenty of background reasons you might have it that don't involve your character having real affluence. These come to mind immediately: parting gifts from a mentor (where else does a wizard get a spellbook?), military equipment (kept as a service reward or simply because no one actually asked for it back), ill-gotten goods, or being the only stuff you've ever owned (and thus actually a very paltry sum compared to the average life of work, depending on background).
It still belongs to you to do as you please except when you specifically ask the DM to have you owe them back.

If they gave it as a gift, they gave it in the form of wealth. It's like being given a brand new model Lamborghini as a gift. Sure, you didn't necessarily obtain the money from being in the labor force, but the car now belongs to you to do as you see fit.

[Cicciograna]

Part of me wonders how the locals look at it. Do they change the prices on all the "adventurer" goods to fleece the rich clueless adventurers? Do they treat them as walking money bags, liable to drop coin if you say the right words?
Yes they do. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html)

[loki_ragnarock]

That assumes starting equipment was directly purchased by the character. There are plenty of background reasons you might have it that don't involve your character having real affluence. These come to mind immediately: parting gifts from a mentor (where else does a wizard get a spellbook?), military equipment (kept as a service reward or simply because no one actually asked for it back), ill-gotten goods, or being the only stuff you've ever owned (and thus actually a very paltry sum compared to the average life of work, depending on background).

I grant that's true... but whether they bought a Lamborghini or had it gifted to them, it's going to have a influence on the way they think about money and it's value.

So, for a common laborer to afford Chain Mail's 75gp would take them 375 days. Over a year. Over a year if none of the money they were earning went toward things like food or housing. With that perspective, it's less like a Lambo and more like a Ram 1500. It could probably be done on credit and take a handful of years to pay off, but these adventurer types are running around with fully paid off armor at start. And without the recurring monthly armor payment to the lender, it frees up alot of coin for tipping extravagantly at the local tavern.

And in a couple levels their extravagant tips will be pink Cadillacs. Or the gold piece equivalent.

After they've purchased their plate mail, of course. The 1500gp cost of that would take that same laborer 7500 days to accumulate, assuming they spend nothing on clothing, housing, food, etc. Over 20 years of working, without any expenses. Dayum.
That's more of the Lambo. And once they have the Lambo, is it any wonder they're tipping in GP?