Roleplaying this Empreal Lord's Obedience literally kills you

[Spore]

Tolc (https://www.aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tolc) requires the following:


Kneel naked outdoors at night while dipping your hands in two bowls of tepid water. Slowly raise your hands above your head and hold them there until the water from both bowls has evaporated. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on saves against cold effects.

Where is he revered mostly? In Irrisen that has HARSH winters, who fight winter witches, ice hags, frost giants and winter fey.

When is a bonus vs. cold effects needed? In the dead of winter.

But Spore, you seem to say, characters worshipping him should be hardy. Yes, I agree. But have you ever tried to wait for a bowl of water to evaporate when the outside temperatures drop below -20°F (Reign of Winter says cold winter nights get to -20°F). Pathfinder defines cold weather.


An unprotected character in cold weather (below 40° F) must succeed at a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, +1 per previous check). A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description).

Imagining a cleric (or any other class with a good fort save) and a very hard person with Con 16, you have a 50/50 chance of turning 1d6 nonlethal cold damage into a small boon vs. cold effects. Yes, there are "tricks" to go around that. If we stay 1st level clerics for this practice, you have to be an half-orc shaman (endurance as bonus racial feat), aasimar, tiefling or undine (cold resistance).

Still, it is a winter night (below 0°F), but you are also a skilled survivalist (at or above +5 to the mod), so you can get a +4 mod to Fortitude checks if your ritual remains stationary.

Problem is, the water from your HANDS is not forced to evaporate, but rather the water from your bowls. Which is ridiculous since without the heat of a winter sun, this would never happen.


Can't sublimate without the heat

Without the addition of energy (heat) to the process, ice would not sublimate into vapor. That is where sunlight plays a large role in the natural world. Water has a physical property called the "heat of vaporization," which is the amount of heat required to vaporize water.

Yes, science and Pathfinder/D&D are deadly allergic to each other, but I cannot see a way this ritual makes any goddamn sense. I can see the water evaporating from the body, seeing as the devout follower of Tolc pushes their body against the vile cold of winter. But the bowls? Dude, if you are not next to a fire and are boiling a bowl of ice, I do not see you surviving that.

How would you conduct his ritual without resorting to elemental resistances, the endure elements spell or rules trickery, but sane and preferrably mundane items?

[Eldonauran]

The way I'd handle it is:

The ritual takes an hour and the water supernaturally sublimates during that time, a sign that the deity acknowledges the obedience.

Problem solved.

[Darg]

Problem is, the water from your HANDS is not forced to evaporate, but rather the water from your bowls. Which is ridiculous since without the heat of a winter sun, this would never happen.[/B]

It's definitely the water on your hands that have to evaporate. It doesn't say the "water in the bowls"; it says "water from the bowls." I've rinsed my hands with warm water in near 0 degree weather and my hands tended to dry very quickly.

Does it say how long the bonus from your obedience lasts?

[Kris Moonhand]

All obediences take an hour, the bonus lasts 24 hours

[Spore]

That clears things up, still nude in -20F weather is an average of 3d6 nonlethal cold damage unless you rule the ritual is viable next to a fire.

[Darg]

That clears things up, still nude in -20F weather is an average of 3d6 nonlethal cold damage unless you rule the ritual is viable next to a fire.

Nothing says it can't be. It only says it has to be outdoors at night.

[Crake]

That clears things up, still nude in -20F weather is an average of 3d6 nonlethal cold damage unless you rule the ritual is viable next to a fire.

Or you cast that little 1st level spell known as Endure Elements.

[Kurald Galain]

Where is he revered mostly? In Irrisen that has HARSH winters, who fight winter witches, ice hags, frost giants and winter fey.
Right. So when is a bonus vs. cold effects needed? Not in winter per se, but when fighting winter witches, ice hags, frost giants and winter fey. Duh.

Nothing says that all winter nights are below 20 or even below zero. Nothing says you can't use this during a cosy summer night, either. The only requirement is that it is night.

I mean, if the devotion were "sit in a comfy chair next to a fireplace, wrapped in a fluffy blanket, and sip a cup of tea" then it wouldn't be much of a devotion, now would it?

[Segev]

Tolc (https://www.aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tolc) requires the following:



Where is he revered mostly? In Irrisen that has HARSH winters, who fight winter witches, ice hags, frost giants and winter fey.

When is a bonus vs. cold effects needed? In the dead of winter.

But Spore, you seem to say, characters worshipping him should be hardy. Yes, I agree. But have you ever tried to wait for a bowl of water to evaporate when the outside temperatures drop below -20°F (Reign of Winter says cold winter nights get to -20°F). Pathfinder defines cold weather.



Imagining a cleric (or any other class with a good fort save) and a very hard person with Con 16, you have a 50/50 chance of turning 1d6 nonlethal cold damage into a small boon vs. cold effects. Yes, there are "tricks" to go around that. If we stay 1st level clerics for this practice, you have to be an half-orc shaman (endurance as bonus racial feat), aasimar, tiefling or undine (cold resistance).

Still, it is a winter night (below 0°F), but you are also a skilled survivalist (at or above +5 to the mod), so you can get a +4 mod to Fortitude checks if your ritual remains stationary.

Problem is, the water from your HANDS is not forced to evaporate, but rather the water from your bowls. Which is ridiculous since without the heat of a winter sun, this would never happen.



Yes, science and Pathfinder/D&D are deadly allergic to each other, but I cannot see a way this ritual makes any goddamn sense. I can see the water evaporating from the body, seeing as the devout follower of Tolc pushes their body against the vile cold of winter. But the bowls? Dude, if you are not next to a fire and are boiling a bowl of ice, I do not see you surviving that.

How would you conduct his ritual without resorting to elemental resistances, the endure elements spell or rules trickery, but sane and preferrably mundane items?
My initial understanding upon reading this post was that you do the dip-and-raise repeatedly, waiting for the water to evaporate each time, until your hands come out of the bowls dry. Brutal and IRL going to give you nasty frostbite, but not impossible. If completing the ritual successfully also heals you of cold damage taken during it, very viable, especially with a good enough fortitude save.

Without the “cold damage heal” bit, normal magical healing is still feasible.

Also, nothing says you can’t have a roaring fire nearby, or a ring of them around you. In fact, rituals ringed in bonfires sound quite ... ritualistic ... to me.


The way I'd handle it is:

The ritual takes an hour and the water supernaturally sublimates during that time, a sign that the deity acknowledges the obedience.

Problem solved.

This also works.

[Wildstag]

There's several Obediences that basically ask you to suffer near-death experiences daily.

As I recall, Hanspur's requires that you waterboard yourself or simulate drowning through submerging yourself and expelling all the air from your lungs until you inhale water. That was a fun evangelist to roleplay, especially since I was technically a heretic priest.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Right. So when is a bonus vs. cold effects needed? Not in winter per se, but when fighting winter witches, ice hags, frost giants and winter fey. Duh.

Nothing says that all winter nights are below 20 or even below zero. Nothing says you can't use this during a cosy summer night, either. The only requirement is that it is night.

I mean, if the devotion were "sit in a comfy chair next to a fireplace, wrapped in a fluffy blanket, and sip a cup of tea" then it wouldn't be much of a devotion, now would it?

TBF; Irrisen where this is most common has been locked in Winter for over 1,400 years. Somehow, the nation has managed to survive despite never having a growing season and being massively hostile to neighboring nations and ridiculously isolationist and brutal to its common citizens. Somehow.

[Eldonauran]

TBF; Irrisen where this is most common has been locked in Winter for over 1,400 years. Somehow, the nation has managed to survive despite never having a growing season and being massively hostile to neighboring nations and ridiculously isolationist and brutal to its common citizens. Somehow.
In a world where magic exists, this shouldn't surprise you.

[MesiDoomstalker]

In a world where magic exists, this shouldn't surprise you.

It should, because it still has living citizens. Who need food. And the Winter Witches of Irrisen don't strike me as the "make magical food to feed the masses" type. Quite the opposite really.

[Kurald Galain]

TBF; Irrisen where this is most common has been locked in Winter for over 1,400 years. Somehow, the nation has managed to survive despite never having a growing season and being massively hostile to neighboring nations and ridiculously isolationist and brutal to its common citizens. Somehow.

Being ruled by the most powerful spellcaster on Golarion probably helps (I'm pretty sure Baba Yaga outclasses Tar-Baphon and the surviving Runelords and the Royal House of Thrune...)

[Segev]

Being ruled by the most powerful spellcaster on Golarion probably helps (I'm pretty sure Baba Yaga outclasses Tar-Baphon and the surviving Runelords and the Royal House of Thrune...)

Maybe they live off of migratory animals that come there for other reasons.

[King of Nowhere]

i don't know the specific setting, but "where does the food come from" is a fairly big worldbuilding question in those circumstances. magic could solve this issue in a variety of ways, but they need to be stated

[Kurald Galain]

i don't know the specific setting, but "where does the food come from" is a fairly big worldbuilding question in those circumstances.

I've just checked. Canonically, people in Irrisen live off bark, moss, fish, and traded food. There's not really any agriculture. If that sounds like there's not a lot of food, well that's the point, it is a harsh region.

Bear in mind that the real-world Inuit people have a similar diet.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Being ruled by the most powerful spellcaster on Golarion probably helps (I'm pretty sure Baba Yaga outclasses Tar-Baphon and the surviving Runelords and the Royal House of Thrune...)

Baba Yaga doesn't rule Irrisen. One of her daughters do. And by CR alone, Baba Yaga is CR 30, where Tar-Baphon is 26. I don't know all the rest but I know Sorshen is CR 30 as well. To say nothing of the actual difficulty of them as enemies.

[Kurald Galain]

Baba Yaga doesn't rule Irrisen. One of her daughters do.
Right. Until the moment the daughter does something Baba Yaga doesn't like :smallamused: There's a whole adventure path about that.


And by CR alone, Baba Yaga is CR 30, where Tar-Baphon is 26.
So like I said, Baba Yaga outclasses Tar-Baphon. By a fair margin, I might add.

She also has way more resources than Sorshen (despite being of equal CR) and way more CR than House Thrune (despite having comparable resources). Of course at those levels you can't be absolutely certain of anything, but sources suggest Baba Yaga outclasses everyone except possibly Hao-Jin (who lives on the plane of Axis, and hasn't been to Golarion in centuries).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Right. Until the moment the daughter does something Baba Yaga doesn't like :smallamused: There's a whole adventure path about that.


So like I said, Baba Yaga outclasses Tar-Baphon. By a fair margin, I might add.

She also has way more resources than Sorshen (despite being of equal CR) and way more CR than House Thrune (despite having comparable resources). Of course at those levels you can't be absolutely certain of anything, but sources suggest Baba Yaga outclasses everyone except possibly Hao-Jin (who lives on the plane of Axis, and hasn't been to Golarion in centuries).

Uh. No? Reign of Winter is not an AP about Baba Yaga laying the smack down on her daughter. Quite the opposite. Its literally the goal of the PC's to rescue Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga is not on Galorion. In fact she only shows up every 100 years to swap out daughters. She doesn't rule, and has no interest in ruling. In fact,
she'd just as willingly give up Irrisen. She's bored of her 'experiment' and if the PC's tell her to get lost from Galorion for good she obliges.
Make no mistake, Baba Yaga is one of the most powerful non-Diefic entities in Pathfinder. But she's not one to meddle with things like "feeding people".

[Psyren]

How would you conduct his ritual without resorting to elemental resistances, the endure elements spell or rules trickery, but sane and preferrably mundane items?

As others have stated - by making a single DC 15 fort save after an hour, at which point my Obedience is complete and (by RAW) both bowls have evaporated.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

You do it next to a fire, obviously.

[AvatarVecna]

TBF; Irrisen where this is most common has been locked in Winter for over 1,400 years. Somehow, the nation has managed to survive despite never having a growing season and being massively hostile to neighboring nations and ridiculously isolationist and brutal to its common citizens. Somehow.

This is vaguely reminiscent of how drow basically only continue existing in Faerun because Lolth protects them from the consequences of their ideology - not because she cares about them, but because she wants to have helpless playthings to torture as the whim strikes her, and if the drow died off she'd have to try and steal some other god's mortal playthings and that would get messy.