Playing Pathfinder Monsters with CR equals HD+LA (specifically spellcasting/psionic)

[Ramza00]

Playing Pathfinder Monsters with CR equals HD+LA (specifically spellcasting/psionic/initators/etc)

So Pathfinder has a general rule (up to DM approval) of allowing you to play a monster with its CR being equivalent to the amount of levels you have with it.

Using 3.5 and Pathfinder Monsters what is a good such monster?

First one I am thinking of is Psionic Illithid which is 9th level Telepath and is CR 8.


Any other good suggestions?

[Zanos]

A black ethergaunt is a 17th level wizard with 16 HD at CR 17. But among other things you get a +20 racial bonus to intelligence.

A planetar is a 17th level cleric at CR 16(wut) with a mountain of celestial features, SLAs, and +8-+14 to every ability score.

[Ramza00]

A black ethergaunt is a 17th level wizard with 16 HD at CR 17. But among other things you get a +20 racial bonus to intelligence.

A planetar is a 17th level cleric at CR 16(wut) with a mountain of celestial features, SLAs, and +8-+14 to every ability score.

Anything with a lower CR that you can think of? I find CRs that are 5 to be most interesting and CRs that are 8 to 10 to be still interesting but less so when we are talking 13 to 20.

Adds the min max thread from another website about this subject but it does not include any Pathfinder.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1582.0

[Efrate]

A lot of celestials and archons have native casting of some sort, often in excess of their HD. But realistically ANY monster that isnt a dumb brute with tons of HD (most animals magical beasts and the like) is quite nice for this. I think 3.5 monsters will be more broken on the whole than pathfinder, as 3.5 is more broken than pathfinder at its core, but ymmv.

I would look at the la assignment thread if looking for power, but otherwise just pick a monster that does something you like and add classes to it that synergize.

Nymphs cast at above HD druids iirc if you stick with casting, some of the ToB monsters I believe initiate above HD as well, and anything with Psi likes in 3.5 always maximally augments for free (to HD?/psi like level) at no pp cost.

Thoon elder brain at 12 HD is awesome, dual actions plus more.

[Kaleph]

Talking about celestials, Ursinal and Firre cast as a 12th level wizard and cleric, respectively, and are both CR 10. They also have a lot of other goodies to boot.

[unseenmage]

The splat Monstrous Handbook: Monsters of Faerun has a lot of creatures whose CRs are too low.

The old WotC online archives contain loads of poorly thought out monster superpowers.


Has your GM decided how to rule on dragons or other creatures whose CR fluctuates with lifespan?

[Seerow]

Quickling is a great pick I stumbled on a while back.

CR3 fey with 4 hd, -2 str, +14 (!!) dexterity, +2 con, +4 all mental stats, small size, a ridiculous 120ft (!!!) base move speed.

When you stand still, you are invisible.
When you move, you gain concealment, evasion, and uncanny dodge.
You also get DR5/Cold Iron and 1 natural armor, because why not.

You've got some minor spell like abilities (levitate, shatter, and ventriloquism are the stars here), Spring Attack and Mobility are both bonus feats, which while not earth shattering does make some otherwise annoying feats/classes easier to get into. Oh and just as a bonus you get poison use.


I mean, it's only weakness is that it doesn't have a full caster progression. But for most martial builds (at least any with a finesse leaning) it's a fantastic package and nearly impossible to beat in 3 levels.

[Ramza00]

Has your GM decided how to rule on dragons or other creatures whose CR fluctuates with lifespan?

This is just a fun thought exercise right now. With my various DMs in my local area we are free spirits which will houserule the monsters down a bit. For example with the Illithid / Mind-Flayer okay you are an 8th level telepath with 8 CR / HD (not a 9th level) but you will get only INT + 2 not all the physical and mental stats, you will get some extra powers known for free (or the harder DMs will will say you have to pick those specific powers, depending on which one), and you will get tentacles and mindblast.

This is because it is unreasonable to be 1 higher level manifester than what a normal psion can do, with better bab, better skills, better hd, better physical and mental stats, and so on.

We would be inspired by the RAW but we will also simultaneously change some of it if it gets too obscene. The idea of this is to have fun.

-----

Likewise some of the monsters of the various DMs I have are scary for they are willing to use Path of War counters so even if you smash them with a rocket, the rocket may not work due to the counter, while the next turn rocket may kill you. The DM can always do things bigger and better and he is less invested when his monsters die than your PCs even if we are cool with easy raise dead.

[unseenmage]

Ah in THAT case... I recommend the Amalgam tempalte from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary. It's a bit complicated but the jist is that you can combine any two creatures into a new creature with both sets of superpowers. The one kn PFSRD is technically PF but theres a 3.x version too.

It's a ton of fun. My personal favorite creature I've played using it is the Doppelmimic which is also my avatar. Doppelganger plus Mimic.

An amusing side effect we found was that if he's using doppel powers to appear like a person and walks into an antimagic field he reverts to his monster appearance.
We mused that he'd quietly bluff to anyone nearby that he was melting because magic and use his completely mundane Mimic powers to turn into a patch of floor.

Also amusing was the Warforged Amalgam Dvati. Two broken base races that are even more broken together.

In my sig is a thread about clockwork spacewhales where I make clockwork Oma (PF spacewhale) and combine it with the Lusca (3 headed squid shark kraken). The Lusca deals extra damage to ships. Well, space ships ARE ships. :)

[Greg_S]

The Venedaemon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/daemons/daemon-venedaemon/) is CR 4, has 6 Outsider HD, immunities to death and acid, plus resists to the other elements. It adds to that a net +36 to its stats, a fly speed, some natural telepathy, 4 natural tentacle attacks, and to top it all off, 6th level Sorcerer casting. It also can also summon cacodaemons to absorb the souls of things it or its allies kill and use the resulting soul gems as one-time pearls of power.

[SimonMoon6]

Pretty much all of the outsiders are awesome. So, I would choose one of those.

But apart from outsiders, here's a quirky pick that I had put some thought into:

"Caryatid Column with the robot subtype". (CR 3)

Now, the robot subtype is a little gem that's hidden among the listing of what each creature type and subtype means. But it's really a template that can turn an unintelligent construct into an intelligent one, with no change in CR.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/robot/

The drawback is a vulnerability to critical hits and electricity, neither of which is overwhelmingly annoying.

Now, apply that to a Caryatid Column, which is shaped like a humanoid (and therefore doesn't present much problem interacting with normal things or people) but which has amazing defenses for a CR 3 creature: infinite SR though vulnerable to rock to mud and stone to flesh, DR 5, damages weapons that hit it, can't be disarmed, and all the other awesome construct defensive abilities. Plus, she can just stand still and be unnoticed.

Of course, having no CON, only the base 10 INT (I'm not sure if the robot sub-type overwrites the character creation rules), -2 DEX, and a very small CHA could be considered big disadvantages. Still, it gets +8 STR and no penalty to WIS. And naturally you might be thinking this character should be a fighter. But considering how difficult it can be to heal a construct, I'd want someone who could cast "Make Whole" when necessary (or use a wand of it), so I would suggest a cleric, in particular using the "Iron Priest" archetype since they are good at healing constructs. For domains, I'd be looking into any of the following: Knowledge (Aeon), Liberation, Strength (Ferocity), Trickery. I haven't figured out what deity would be best.

For me, the hardest part of making a character like this would be explaining: how do you make a robot out of stone? But it's a fantasy world, so whatever. "I should really just relax".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thought: Lamia Matriarch.

She's CR 8, has 12 HD, casts like a 6th level sorcerer (with the option to use cleric spells), nice stat mods (+10 STR, +8 DEX, +6 CON, +6 INT, +6 WIS, +10 CHA), improved two weapon fighting, size large when she wants to be (unfortunately with undersized weapons) but can use alter self to become a medium sized humanoid, and has some assorted spell like abilities (including mirror image, suggestion, and charm monster). Also, immune to mind-affecting effects. She does have wisdom drain too, but that's unlikely to be used except against monsters with very low wisdom (and yet, it's an option). Plus SR 19 (which, like all fixed SR, is unlikely to matter much at higher levels).

Clearly, she's a gish and you can then send her into the Eldritch Knight prestige class once she learns to use all martial weapons. Of course, that probably means a dip into a fighter-type class, unless there's another easy way to get that ability somewhere else. (I can't find a template that'll turn her into an outsider-- who would then be proficient with all weapons-- with a cost that's less than the one level of fighter... and you don't want to spend too much since she's already two levels behind a normal sorcerer.)

Edit: I found a +1 CR template to turn into an outsider: Shadow Creature.

[unseenmage]

So the Flying weapon enhancement from 3.0 lets your weapon turn into a flying animated object. Combine with either Intelligent Magic Item or Robot subtype for good fun.

Also look at the Trompe L'oeil template and the Alter Ego template. Use the Building and Modifying Constructs section of the PRD to price your Construct by CR to allow for construction of Alter Egos. Trompe' L'oeil and Alter Ego Robots are fun too.

You want a vampire or werwolf Construct? Just find a way to get the 3.x spell Greater Humanoid Essence to affect the Construct long enough for the curse to take hold and viola. For added fun use it on your Intelligent Magic Item sword. Boom. Now you have a sword that freaks out every so often and runs off into the forest for a night or three. OR a magic sword that cant be immersed in running water and has a thing for necks; add the vorpal quality for flavor.