Sorcerer houserule: bonkers?

[Mr Adventurer]

Just had a thought, would this be too bonkers?

Sorcery Points refresh on a Short Rest.

They can only be converted into Spell Slots once per Long Rest.

Sorcerers get 2 metamagic whenever they currently get 1.

Alternative question: what measures would be necessary to balance Sorcery Points refreshing on a Short Rest?

[Skylivedk]

In short: yes.

At the very least block the conversion to spell slots. Even then it's a huge huge buff. Maybe only one regain during short rest per day like Arcane Recovery?

I'd rather say put a metamagic at 7 than double all metamagic gains.

[Kireban]

It is ok, but you can just give them something similar to arcane recovery instead, and cut the connection between sorcery points and spell slots.

[MrStabby]

So the issue is that this takes a powerful class and makes it stronger.

It makes balance worse rather than better.

It would not be used at my table.

[Leucaetius]

So what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this houserule? This is always a good place to start in design. Is your goal to encourage Sorcerers to use their metamagic more often? Is it to make the sorcerer a stronger class?

As it stands, I think that this would make the sorcerer, an already powerful class, too powerful. If you are trying to encourage more use of metamagic, it will likely end up working poorly. I foresee a few more uses of metamagic but that the sorcery points will likely end up being saved until the sorcerer has burned all their spell slots and then converts the sorcery points to refill their spell slots.

The reason to limit the metamagic points is that it makes the Sorcerer need to make meaningful decisions--it is resource management, which lies at the heart of all casting classes. If metamagic is too freely available, it ceases to seem wonderful and powerful (think of how many dozen of dragons you killed in Skyrim, were dragons an epic and meaningful encounter by the end of the game?). Giving all of the metamagic abilities would reduce uniqueness amongst characters and take away a major decision point in character building.

Final balancing point: multiclassing. Sorlock is already one of the most popular multiclasses. This would make that combo even more powerful and would encourage a siesta after nearly every fight.

[Master O'Laughs]

A toned down version of that mechanic would be you recover your proficiency bonus worth of sorcery points per short rest.

in my opinion, Sorcerers need something to balance out the lack of spells known & selection (in comparison with wizard) and the fact that you have to choose between casting spells or using meta-magic with sorcery points (where the wizard recharges just as many spells and has "always on" sub class abilities).

It is a debated topic, but i think giving the proficiency bonus/SR recharge allows more flexibility and for me would make me less likely to want to MC into warlock for sorcery point recharge (though that would not be all players).

[Aimeryan]

A toned down version of that mechanic would be you recover your proficiency bonus worth of sorcery points per short rest.

in my opinion, Sorcerers need something to balance out the lack of spells known & selection (in comparison with wizard) and the fact that you have to choose between casting spells or using meta-magic with sorcery points (where the wizard recharges just as many spells and has "always on" sub class abilities).

It is a debated topic, but i think giving the proficiency bonus/SR recharge allows more flexibility and for me would make me less likely to want to MC into warlock for sorcery point recharge (though that would not be all players).

I agree with all of this. A Warlock 3 dip gives you 4 Sorcery Points back on a Short Rest - equivalent to the level 20 capstone for Sorcerer. So is this something you expect to gain after three levels (albeit, at the cost of lost Spell Levels) or something you expect to gain after twenty levels?

Getting all Sorcery Points back on a Short Rest would scale, but would likely be too overpowered. Getting back Proficiency equivalent Sorcery Points on a Short Rest is something I could see - and a new capstone. It seems about right, to me.

The arguments against a powerful class getting more powerful has to be looked at in a relative sense - comparing to the Wizard this would still put the Sorcerer behind. If comparing against a Ranger, well, the argument may better be suited by sorting the Ranger out rather than denying the Sorcerer.

[Dork_Forge]

Personally i think this is a bit much in terms of SP and I don't think the Metamagic fix really helps them, since they have such a gap between their starting selections and the next opportunity to choose. My personal approach to the Sorcerer is:

Add an additional Spell Known at levels 1 and 5
Add one additional Metamagic at 7th level
At Second level you gain the feature Sorcerous Recovery: Once per day, when you finish a short rest you can regain a number of Sorcery points equal to half of your Sorcerer level rounded up

[MrStabby]

I agree with all of this. A Warlock 3 dip gives you 4 Sorcery Points back on a Short Rest - equivalent to the level 20 capstone for Sorcerer. So is this something you expect to gain after three levels (albeit, at the cost of lost Spell Levels) or something you expect to gain after twenty levels?

Getting all Sorcery Points back on a Short Rest would scale, but would likely be too overpowered. Getting back Proficiency equivalent Sorcery Points on a Short Rest is something I could see - and a new capstone. It seems about right, to me.

The arguments against a powerful class getting more powerful has to be looked at in a relative sense - comparing to the Wizard this would still put the Sorcerer behind. If comparing against a Ranger, well, the argument may better be suited by sorting the Ranger out rather than denying the Sorcerer.

Yes but if you compare to the wizard every class needs a buff.

Cherry picking a great outlier then saying that a given class is not as powerful as that outlier is not really very convincing. Just because there exists a class that is stronger does not make the sorcerer weak.

Compare it to a fighter or a barbarian or a rogue or a warlock.

[Spiritchaser]

The arguments against a powerful class getting more powerful has to be looked at in a relative sense - comparing to the Wizard this would still put the Sorcerer behind. If comparing against a Ranger, well, the argument may better be suited by sorting the Ranger out rather than denying the Sorcerer.

So: first off, I agree that the sorcerer has some headroom for power growth relative to wizard, and indeed relative to most full casters. I would personally use this for mechanically or thematically linked packages of spells (many of which aren’t currently available to sorcerers,) but some level of sorcery point recovery works.

However: More sorcery points will not uniformly strengthen the sorcerer across subclasses, and some of the stronger options likely benefit more. Shadow is already strong for a sorcerer subclass, and this makes it proportionally stronger because “moar puppy”.

If you were going to do this I would suggest a balance pass through the subclasses, adding some sorcery point fuelled options to the weaker ones.

[cutlery]

This is taking away the long rest management from the sorcerer, while letting them spam spells relative to short rest balanced (fighter, barbarian, warlock) classes.

It's already easy enough to have a warlock run out of slots in an encounter, and a sorcerer can keep casting. Now a sorcerer can outcast a warlock even more times per day.

I'd say make the players with extensive long rest resources feel what it is like to burn them too fast.

[Dork_Forge]

This is taking away the long rest management from the sorcerer, while letting them spam spells relative to short rest balanced (fighter, barbarian, warlock) classes.

It's already easy enough to have a warlock run out of slots in an encounter, and a sorcerer can keep casting. Now a sorcerer can outcast a warlock even more times per day.

I'd say make the players with extensive long rest resources feel what it is like to burn them too fast.

You need to account for the Sorcerer not having a short rest resource as a whole though like other casters (the only exception is the Divine Soul):

-Bards get their Inspiration back on a short rest at 5th
-Clerics not only get their Channel Divinity Back but it ups to two per rest
-Druids get two Wildshapes per rest
-Wizard gets Arcane Recovery
-Warlock is a Warlock

Meanwhile the RAW Sorcerer gets no short rest resource and a SP pool that's relatively quite small if you expect to actually do your metamagic thing of choice any meaningful amount without cutting into your overall casting.

[cutlery]

You need to account for the Sorcerer not having a short rest resource as a whole though like other casters

No, that's the class. They can already turn sorcery points into slots if they wish, which is not unlike arcane recovery. However they can also do some pretty cool things with those points.

The sorcerer can burn the hardest and brightest of all the casters; but this costs resources.

[Dork_Forge]

No, that's the class. They can already turn sorcery points into slots if they wish, which is not unlike arcane recovery. However they can also do some pretty cool things with those points.

The sorcerer can burn the hardest and brightest of all the casters; but this costs resources.

The class lacking a short rest resource is a bug not a feature, they are the only class that has to sacrifice their defining ability in this manner. Flexible casting is unlike Arcane Recovery, as the latter is purely a refresing of resources with no decision or compromise to playstyle or overall power to be made.

[cutlery]

The class lacking a short rest resource is a bug not a feature, they are the only class that has to sacrifice their defining ability in this manner. Flexible casting is unlike Arcane Recovery, as the latter is purely a refresing of resources with no decision or compromise to playstyle or overall power to be made.

It isn't a bug. It's the cost of metamagic access. A 10th level sorcerer can use those points to regain a 5th and 2nd level slot, which is more than what arcane recovery can create. They can perfectly match arcane recovery and still have three spell points.

There isn't a problem.

[Dork_Forge]

It isn't a bug. It's the cost of metamagic access. A 10th level sorcerer can use those points to regain a 5th and 2nd level slot, which is more than what arcane recovery can create. They can perfectly match arcane recovery and still have three spell points.

There isn't a problem.

Why does the Sorcerer need a cost to access their own defining class feature? What other class has to 'pay a cost' to access their niche abilility?

[MrStabby]

Why does the Sorcerer need a cost to access their own defining class feature? What other class has to 'pay a cost' to access their niche abilility?

Every class does.

Every other class has the cost of not getting metamagic.

Most other classes have the cost of not getting invocations.

A lot of classes have the cost of not getting a second attack.




Sorcerer may be frustrating, but it is about the right power level. If you want to give it boosts, especially something this massive, it needs to be toned down in other ways if you want to keep it balanced. Now this isn't to say anyone should want to keep it balanced. Sometimes a DM wants an imbalanced class for one reason or another but without more context we can't oppine on that.

[cutlery]

Why does the Sorcerer need a cost to access their own defining class feature? What other class has to 'pay a cost' to access their niche abilility?

Arcane recovery is once per day (after a short rest).

Sorcery points are already a more flexible resource that recovers as many slots (and can do other things), but your proposed change means a sorcerer can do it again and again and again.


Arcane recovery doesn't make a Wizard a better spam caster than a sorcerer, it is the only way they can hope to keep up; and the sorcerer can always choose to burn twice as hard instead.

[Dork_Forge]

Every class does.

Every other class has the cost of not getting metamagic.

Most other classes have the cost of not getting invocations.

A lot of classes have the cost of not getting a second attack.




Sorcerer may be frustrating, but it is about the right power level. If you want to give it boosts, especially something this massive, it needs to be toned down in other ways if you want to keep it balanced. Now this isn't to say anyone should want to keep it balanced. Sometimes a DM wants an imbalanced class for one reason or another but without more context we can't oppine on that.

Not getting another classes' feature is not a cost and Extra Attack is not a defining class feature unless you're a Fighter of level 11+.

The Sorcerer is the only full caster without a short rest resource, they can cannibalise their spell slots to do more Metamagic, but they are the only class that has to sacrifice their casting ability to continue to use their deifning feature reliably throughout the day.

Meanwhile the trend seems to be for new Origins to add abilities that utilise SPs, drawing on a pool that wasn't exactly overflowing to begin with.

I'd also like to point out that I am not advocating for full short rest recharge, I presented my version of a Sorcerer fix above.


Arcane recovery is once per day (after a short rest).

Sorcery points are already a more flexible resource that recovers as many slots (and can do other things), but your proposed change means a sorcerer can do it again and again and again.


Arcane recovery doesn't make a Wizard a better spam caster than a sorcerer, it is the only way they can hope to keep up; and the sorcerer can always choose to burn twice as hard instead.

You're comparing directly Arcane Recovery and Spell Points as a whole as if they are equal parts of their respective classes' chassis, they aren't. The Wizard still has off prepared list ritual casting that lets them add a lot of utility casting throughout the day. IMO the Wizard shouldn't have Arcane Recovery to begin with, it makes no fluff sense to belong to them and just serves to make them arguably the best spontaneous casters as well as arguably the best ritual casters.

I'd also like to point out again, since you said 'again and again and again,' that I'm not advocating for short rest recharge and expressed my opinion that it was overpowered. I'm advocating for the SP equivalent of Arcane Recovery, which I don't think by any stretch pushes the Sorcerer into OP territory or steps on any toes.

[micahaphone]

I agree that sorcerers should get something back on a short rest, but less than this.
It's ridiculous for rangers to get more spells known, and having a few select levels where you can lose 70% of your defining feature to slightly surpass wizards isn't a selling point.

[cutlery]

I'd also like to point out again, since you said 'again and again and again,' that I'm not advocating for short rest recharge and expressed my opinion that it was overpowered. I'm advocating for the SP equivalent of Arcane Recovery, which I don't think by any stretch pushes the Sorcerer into OP territory or steps on any toes.

Then why not play something else? If you don't like the idea that sorcerers burn the candle at both ends and the middle, play a wizard or a bard instead.

Arcane recovery isn't as great as you think it is on a long adventuring day, and nowhere near as flexible as sorcery points and metamagic.

Compare the available feats, too - one feat for two sorcery points and two metamagic (2020 UA) vs one feat for all of wizard's ritual casting - you've already got equivalent recovery via point for slot conversion.


You can, in fact, choose to create more slots than the wizard, casting more spells per day (until level 18).

There isn't a problem; that's the cost for the ability to toss 5 quickened spells per long rest at level 10.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Just had a thought, would this be too bonkers?

Sorcery Points refresh on a Short Rest.

They can only be converted into Spell Slots once per Long Rest.

Sorcerers get 2 metamagic whenever they currently get 1.

Alternative question: what measures would be necessary to balance Sorcery Points refreshing on a Short Rest?

It sounds fine to me. Shifting the focus of sorcery points away from generating spell slots to using meta-magic on every spell seems like something I could see being encouraged

That said, I think it may be a net nerf to the sorcerer, because the primary value I see is in the turning of sorcery points into spells slots. Particularly turning points into spell slots of level greater than half your caster level at least until level 10, which is, to me at least, what gives sorcerer potential value compared to wizard, and if I couldn't do that I'd probably pick wizard for the superior spell list in general.

[Edea]

Font of Life (5th level)
"Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose to expend a single hit die to recover a number of expended sorcery points equal to [some value, such your Charisma modifier, or your proficiency bonus, or 1/2 your sorc level, etc. etc.] (minimum of 1 recovered sorcery point). You cannot exceed your maximum sorcery point total for your level through this ability."

Metamagic acquisition levels: 3rd (x2), 7th, 10th, 13th, 17th.

[Skylivedk]

Then why not play something else? If you don't like the idea that sorcerers burn the candle at both ends and the middle, play a wizard or a bard instead.

Arcane recovery isn't as great as you think it is on a long adventuring day, and nowhere near as flexible as sorcery points and metamagic.

Compare the available feats, too - one feat for two sorcery points and two metamagic (2020 UA) vs one feat for all of wizard's ritual casting - you've already got equivalent recovery via point for slot conversion.


You can, in fact, choose to create more slots than the wizard, casting more spells per day (until level 18).

There isn't a problem; that's the cost for the ability to toss 5 quickened spells per long rest at level 10.

But then Sorcerers are paying double:
They're already paying through fewer spells known, a more limited list, no ritual casting and no extra spells learned.

Feature by feature, with Wizard as a baseline, they simply have lost out somewhere. Their saving grace is multi classing compatibility. That's kinda sad.

If you'd like a completely different take:
Would they be op with a once per day refresh and one extra metamagic at level 7 (and two more spells known)? No, they wouldn't. Far from it. They'd still be worse than Wizards, the better druids and a bunch of the clerics

[Dork_Forge]

Then why not play something else? If you don't like the idea that sorcerers burn the candle at both ends and the middle, play a wizard or a bard instead.

Arcane recovery isn't as great as you think it is on a long adventuring day, and nowhere near as flexible as sorcery points and metamagic.

Compare the available feats, too - one feat for two sorcery points and two metamagic (2020 UA) vs one feat for all of wizard's ritual casting - you've already got equivalent recovery via point for slot conversion.


You can, in fact, choose to create more slots than the wizard, casting more spells per day (until level 18).

There isn't a problem; that's the cost for the ability to toss 5 quickened spells per long rest at level 10.

Because I like Sorcerers, it was my first PC (first 3 or so actually) and I love metamagic. The way you're referring to them makes it seem like they're balanced against the other classes to begin with (whilst they're not far off, the frequent consensus that they don't have enough spells known would indicate otherwise).

I'm under no illusions that it's flexible, it is however giving a non trivial amount of slots to the best ritual caster in the game.

You're comparing a UA feat (that even if it does get published, is liable to be nerfed or buffed) to a feat (going to assume ritual caster) that gives you some ritual casting. If you think having Ritual Caster is equivalent to being a Wizard, you're very very wrong. A Wizard's sheer number of spells known from level 1 and level ups give them access to far more rituals than the feat does and they can still scribe more.

You keep referring to a 10th level Sorcerer, most play ends before then and even then being able to sacrifice you ability to do Sorcerer stuff to just vanilla cast more to keep up with a Wizard isn't as praise worthy as you seem to think it is. It's either/or when the Wizard makes no such compromises, and neither does any other full caster.

[clash]

I would be more in favour of sorcerer point regeneration via subclass abilities. That way each subclass could further reward a specific playstyle.

Ie just some rough examples:
Draconic sorcerer: Whenever you deal damage the damage type associated to you ancestry using a spell of level one or higher you regain a sorcery point.
Wild Magic sorcerer: Whenever you cause a wild magic surge, regain 1 sorcery point
Storm: Whenever you cast a spell of first level or higher that deals lightning or thunder damage regain a sorcery point
Shadow sorcerer: Whenever a creature fails it save against a non-damaging spell you cast of first level orhigher gain a sorcery point.
Divine Soul sorceror: Whenever you cast a benficial spell of first level or higher on a friendly creature gain a sorcery point.

[Man_Over_Game]

Alternative question: what measures would be necessary to balance Sorcery Points refreshing on a Short Rest?
I'd just make it so you can't convert them into Spell Slots. Maybe cut it in half, rounded up (so it follows the same pattern as the spell level you can cast).



The problem with anything suggesting more Sorcery Points will always be the Spell Slots you can get out of it. It's the whole reason the Coffeelock is such a vilified build.

Take away the option to convert Sorcery Points to Spell Slots and watch as every Coffeelock Power Gamer, and their opposition, stops caring.


Funny thing is that the years of 5e has shown me is that nobody really cares how many tools you have, or how well you spread an effect from one target to another. The only thing players care about is how much of your biggest impact power can you do, and how that compares to the next guy. The reason Sorcerers seem like they have a lot of potential is because they can theoretically cast more Fireballs than the Wizard. Take that away, though, so that the Sorcerer and the Wizard are forced to be on equal terms when it comes to their biggest impact actions, and then you can buff the Sorcerer in a lot of ways.

Heck, you can see this now between the Wizard and the Sorcerer, just in reverse roles. Defenders of the Sorcerer say it's strong enough because it's slightly more powerful in combat when casting its biggest spells, when everyone else says the Wizard is better just because of how versatile and consistent it is in comparison.

So if you just take away the Sorcerer's plausible power creep, you could compensate it with a LOT of other power. Like a near-endless supply of Metamagics to cast, for example. You would need to tone down Quicken Spell, as that's just a different form of power creep (mostly for Paladin and Warlock builds), but the Sorcerer would get a lot more presence in the game if it was allowed to use its unique mechanic (of modifying spells) a lot more often than it otherwise could.


Being able to cast Catapult or other spells without giving away my position? Targeting two major targets with Tasha's Hideous Laughter? Consistently forcing a creature to making its save with Disadvantage?
There's a lot of cool things here that few people would think were overpowered compared to the alternative, even if they were consistent, and that's a lot more interesting than casting your third Fireball for the day.

[cutlery]

Because I like Sorcerers, it was my first PC (first 3 or so actually) and I love metamagic. The way you're referring to them makes it seem like they're balanced against the other classes to begin with (whilst they're not far off, the frequent consensus that they don't have enough spells known would indicate otherwise).


In many situations they are stronger; especially in tiers 2 and 3. Arcane recovery isn't nearly is great as sorcery points, and ritual casting is just a feat away (as it is for every class). Compare that with the meagre metamagic available via UA feats.

I like sorcerers too, and I think they're balanced fine. I think giving them this makes Warlocks much less interesting; assuming they can in any way turn these points into slots.

You'd need to see to it they were balanced relative to all other classes with somewhat similar lists; which probably includes bards and perhaps some clerics. I think warlock already is well behind in short adventuring day play; what you're talking about would take away from one of the few areas where pure Warlocks excel.

This difference between all short rest and all long rest is one reason why warlock/sorcerer multiclasses work, and you have to consider that compared to them a wizard is only a generalist and can't compare to either working towards their strength.

[Edea]

Also, fixing the coffeelock is easy; just have Flexible Casting explicitly call out only being able to affect spell slots gained through the Spellcasting class feature (warlocks do not get Spellcasting, they get Pact Magic).

[cutlery]

Also, fixing the coffeelock is easy; just have Flexible Casting explicitly call out only being able to affect spell slots gained through the Spellcasting class feature (warlocks do not get Spellcasting, they get Pact Magic).

Better yet, 5% chance, increasing by 5% per long rest of summoning a creature loyal to your patron's nemesis every time you consume a warlock slot in this way.

Don't tell the player, just ask how many slots they convert, and make sure they can hear the dice rolling.

[Malinthas]

I adore the Sorcerer, and play it almost exclusively, and speaking from personal experience it needs tweaking. The number of spells known and the spell list are serious constraints, but I LIKE them, in a way; they challenge me to use them creatively. Metamagic, though, seems woefully inadequate. I want my Sorcerer to feel unlike any other caster, and Metamagic does that. The Wizard and I can both cast a Fireball, but her Fireball is always the same. Mine can be bigger, or go further, or be cast with a Cantrip. So I am forever wanting more Sorcery Points.
That being said... with Sorcery Points being as scarce as they are, I essentially NEVER convert them to spell levels. I need them for Metamagic. This forces me to manage my resources extremely carefully. If I suddenly had a huge supply of Sorcery Points, I would be mighty tempted to convert them into spell levels a lot more often. So, I agree that more Sorcery Points are needed, but I also see the need to break the link to spell levels.
When I DM, my houserule is once per day, the Sorcerer can burn a Hit Die to regain Sorcery Points instead, but they can only be used for Metamagic.

[patchyman]

The arguments against a powerful class getting more powerful has to be looked at in a relative sense - comparing to the Wizard this would still put the Sorcerer behind. If comparing against a Ranger, well, the argument may better be suited by sorting the Ranger out rather than denying the Sorcerer.

I would suggest that if the issue is the Wizard (which it is since a reasonably pwerful class has to be buffed to compete with it), the solution is to nerf the wizard rather than buff the sorcerer.

[Aimeryan]

You would need to tone down Quicken Spell, as that's just a different form of power creep (mostly for Paladin and Warlock builds), but the Sorcerer would get a lot more presence in the game if it was allowed to use its unique mechanic (of modifying spells) a lot more often than it otherwise could.

To be fair, that is more a multiclass issue than a Sorcerer issue - adding a cantrip to your turn as a Sorcerer is minor at best. Also situational use with taking the disengage/dash action, hardly overpowered.

The issue is with Sorlock doubling their A.R.E. Blast spam, or Sorcadin adding a GFB/BB Smite to their routine.

[Dork_Forge]

In many situations they are stronger; especially in tiers 2 and 3. Arcane recovery isn't nearly is great as sorcery points, and ritual casting is just a feat away (as it is for every class). Compare that with the meagre metamagic available via UA feats.

I like sorcerers too, and I think they're balanced fine. I think giving them this makes Warlocks much less interesting; assuming they can in any way turn these points into slots.

You'd need to see to it they were balanced relative to all other classes with somewhat similar lists; which probably includes bards and perhaps some clerics. I think warlock already is well behind in short adventuring day play; what you're talking about would take away from one of the few areas where pure Warlocks excel.

This difference between all short rest and all long rest is one reason why warlock/sorcerer multiclasses work, and you have to consider that compared to them a wizard is only a generalist and can't compare to either working towards their strength.

Sorry, stronger how? Please provde examples with your claims.

Ritual Caster =/= a Wizards Ritual Casting capacity.

Metamagic shouldn't be available through feats, it's literally the Sorcerer's entire mechanical identity.

You're saying this, are you talking about my fix, or the OP's fix?

You mean balanced against those classes that have short rest resources?

Yes a Wizard is a generalist, that's their strength, I'm confused about your point here?

[cutlery]

I would suggest that if the issue is the Wizard (which it is since a reasonably pwerful class has to be buffed to compete with it), the solution is to nerf the wizard rather than buff the sorcerer.

I don't think that's right, because wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks are designed to do different things, and excel with different types of adventuring day.

Let's arbitrarily use FPDs (fireballs per day) as a unit of measure at 10th level; with the caveat that a 10d6 fireball is 20% more "firebally" than a 8d6 fireball.

One, fantastically long 25 round combat encounter and then a long rest? Sorcerer pulls ahead. They and the wizard can both toss 3 3rd, 3 4th, and 2 5th level fireballs; 8 FPD, but: The sorcerer can choose, mid combat, to turn 5 sorcery points into a 3rd level fireball, 6 into a 4th, or 7 into a 5th; to maximize FPDs, they might use two bonus actions in that mega-combat to eke out two more fireballs, so 10 FPD. A wizard can't do anything with arcane recovery; so they're stuck at 8 FPD.

That's setting aside the fact that a sorcerer will beat both classes in Fireballs Per Round (FPR). A fresh sorcerer can choose to burn brightly, and run at 2 FPI for 5 rounds per day; more than they have fireball slots, in fact. They can realistically manage 2 FPI for 4 rounds, which leaves them with 0 fireball but 2 sorcery points.

A wizard cannot burn harder, and a warlock was in the back row using eldritch blast long ago, anyway.

In a day with one SR: The wizard can regain one fireball at 10th; bringing him to 9 FPD. A sorcerer can match this if she wishes, bringing her to 9 FPD, but with 3-5 sorcery points left (depending on what level of fireball the wizard makes); The sorcerer has matched the wizard, blast for blast, and still has a pool for metamagic to fall back on. The warlock still trails, dismally, at 4 FPD.

Slow dungeon crawl with lots of short rests possible? Warlock pulls ahead in terms of 10d6 fireballs per day at 10th; and can probably outpace the others in FPDs, too - 2 10d6 fireballs per SR. Enough short rests and a Warlock's FPD is nearly infinite - though the rest of the party will be ready for rest long before the warlock reaches 10 FPD.


Which is stronger? That depends on your adventuring day. There are cases where either the wizard or the warlock are caught out, and they are unable to adapt. The sorcerer? They can adapt on the fly, any time.... if they manage their resources.



Ritual Caster =/= a Wizards Ritual Casting capacity.


Ritual caster(wizard) perfectly matches the wizard's ritual casting, for the cost of the feat.

As for whether or not metamagic should be available via feats - that depends on if the most recent feats make it into tasha's. I suspect there was a lot of interest in most of them.

[Master O'Laughs]

I don't think that's right, because wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks are designed to do different things, and excel with different types of adventuring day.

Let's arbitrarily use FPDs (fireballs per day) as a unit of measure at 10th level; with the caveat that a 10d6 fireball is 20% more "firebally" than a 8d6 fireball.

One, fantastically long 25 round combat encounter and then a long rest? Sorcerer pulls ahead. They and the wizard can both toss 3 3rd, 3 4th, and 2 5th level fireballs; 8 FPD, but: The sorcerer can choose, mid combat, to turn 5 sorcery points into a 3rd level fireball, 6 into a 4th, or 7 into a 5th; to maximize FPDs, they might use two bonus actions in that mega-combat to eke out two more fireballs, so 10 FPD. A wizard can't do anything with arcane recovery; so they're stuck at 8 FPD.

That's setting aside the fact that a sorcerer will beat both classes in Fireballs Per Round (FPR). A fresh sorcerer can choose to burn brightly, and run at 2 FPI for 5 rounds per day; more than they have fireball slots, in fact. They can realistically manage 2 FPI for 4 rounds, which leaves them with 0 fireball but 2 sorcery points.

A wizard cannot burn harder, and a warlock was in the back row using eldritch blast long ago, anyway.

In a day with one SR: The wizard can regain one fireball at 10th; bringing him to 9 FPD. A sorcerer can match this if she wishes, bringing her to 9 FPD, but with 3-5 sorcery points left (depending on what level of fireball the wizard makes); The sorcerer has matched the wizard, blast for blast, and still has a pool for metamagic to fall back on. The warlock still trails, dismally, at 4 FPD.

Slow dungeon crawl with lots of short rests possible? Warlock pulls ahead in terms of 10d6 fireballs per day at 10th; and can probably outpace the others in FPDs, too - 2 10d6 fireballs per SR. Enough short rests and a Warlock's FPD is nearly infinite - though the rest of the party will be ready for rest long before the warlock reaches 10 FPD.


Which is stronger? That depends on your adventuring day. There are cases where either the wizard or the warlock are caught out, and they are unable to adapt. The sorcerer? They can adapt on the fly, any time.... if they manage their resources.



Ritual caster(wizard) perfectly matches the wizard's ritual casting, for the cost of the feat.

As for whether or not metamagic should be available via feats - that depends on if the most recent feats make it into tasha's. I suspect there was a lot of interest in most of them.

How can the Sorcerer cast 2 FPR? Due to spell casting rules, if you cast a leveled spell with a bonus action you can only cast a cantrip with your action.

If you had action surge from the fighter then you could cast 2 Fireballs per round.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just had a thought, would this be too bonkers?
Sorcery Points refresh on a Short Rest. Bonkers.

They can only be converted into Spell Slots once per Long Rest.
Needlessly fiddly.

Sorcerers get 2 metamagic whenever they currently get 1. I'd advocate for that. Flexibility is what makes sorcerers unique. Adding more spell slots to a full caster would seem to me to break the attempts at balancing full casters that was already done.

Alternative question: what measures would be necessary to balance Sorcery Points refreshing on a Short Rest? How about we just not do that? There be dragons!


I'd rather say put a metamagic at 7 than double all metamagic gains. I"ve been a fan of that for some time.

[cutlery]

How can the Sorcerer cast 2 FPR? Due to spell casting rules, if you cast a leveled spell with a bonus action you can only cast a cantrip with your action.

If you had action surge from the fighter then you could cast 2 Fireballs per round.

You're right, they can't, and I don't guess a cantrip is that exciting. But the FPD is still the same.

They can burn slightly harder than a wizard with a cantrip, or with a damage total that's probably slightly better than an evoker if they empower the fireballs they toss.

They can still match the wizard slot for slot, with three spell points left over (assuming the wizard uses arcane recovery for one 5th level slot).

A 10th level sorcerer has 14 spells total per long rest, and 10 points. More points available means more and more of their spells can get metamagic, and they could already squeeze out as many spell slots as a wizard in the RAW state.

How many empowered fireballs a day should a sorcerer be able to cast?

[clash]

You're right, they can't, and I don't guess a cantrip is that exciting. But the FPD is still the same.

They can burn slightly harder than a wizard with a cantrip, or with a damage total that's probably slightly better than an evoker if they empower the fireballs they toss.

They can still match the wizard slot for slot, with three spell points left over (assuming the wizard uses arcane recovery for one 5th level slot).

A 10th level sorcerer has 14 spells total per long rest, and 10 points. More points available means more and more of their spells can get metamagic, and they could already squeeze out as many spell slots as a wizard in the RAW state.

How many empowered fireballs a day should a sorcerer be able to cast?

But how much do they give up to gain metamagic and fall behind wizard on FB per day or to gain FB per day and nothing else.

Wizard that finds no spell books ever to copy from gets 40 spells known and 25 prepared vs sorcerer gets 15 known/prepared
Wizard gets ritual caster
Wizard gets Arcane recovery
Wizard gets spell mastery and Signature spell

You are putting sorcery points and metamagic up against only arcane recovery, when in reality it needs to be at least somewhat balanced against all of the above for the sorcerer to be a competitive class.

[MrStabby]

Not getting another classes' feature is not a cost and Extra Attack is not a defining class feature unless you're a Fighter of level 11+.

The Sorcerer is the only full caster without a short rest resource, they can cannibalise their spell slots to do more Metamagic, but they are the only class that has to sacrifice their casting ability to continue to use their deifning feature reliably throughout the day.

Meanwhile the trend seems to be for new Origins to add abilities that utilise SPs, drawing on a pool that wasn't exactly overflowing to begin with.

I'd also like to point out that I am not advocating for full short rest recharge, I presented my version of a Sorcerer fix above.



You're comparing directly Arcane Recovery and Spell Points as a whole as if they are equal parts of their respective classes' chassis, they aren't. The Wizard still has off prepared list ritual casting that lets them add a lot of utility casting throughout the day. IMO the Wizard shouldn't have Arcane Recovery to begin with, it makes no fluff sense to belong to them and just serves to make them arguably the best spontaneous casters as well as arguably the best ritual casters.

I'd also like to point out again, since you said 'again and again and again,' that I'm not advocating for short rest recharge and expressed my opinion that it was overpowered. I'm advocating for the SP equivalent of Arcane Recovery, which I don't think by any stretch pushes the Sorcerer into OP territory or steps on any toes.

Well it's what some people call an opportunity cost. You chose to play a sorcerer you get the totally awesome sorcerer class features but at the cost of what you could have got if you played a different class.


I agree that sorcerers should get something back on a short rest, but less than this.
It's ridiculous for rangers to get more spells known, and having a few select levels where you can lose 70% of your defining feature to slightly surpass wizards isn't a selling point.

One class has to have the fewest spells known. Why not the sorcerer? Why should they have more spells known than the ranger? I mean sure they are more focussed on casting, but that is captured by more spell slots, higher level spells, metamagic and access to cantrips.

I would also contend that sorcerers dont generally have more spells than a ranger does - you only get this if you a) pick a ranger subclass that gives you spells and b) conveniently manage to forget about sorcerers having cantrips as well.


But then Sorcerers are paying double:
They're already paying through fewer spells known, a more limited list, no ritual casting and no extra spells learned.

Feature by feature, with Wizard as a baseline, they simply have lost out somewhere. Their saving grace is multi classing compatibility. That's kinda sad.

If you'd like a completely different take:
Would they be op with a once per day refresh and one extra metamagic at level 7 (and two more spells known)? No, they wouldn't. Far from it. They'd still be worse than Wizards, the better druids and a bunch of the clerics

Yeah, so dont use the most powerful class as a baseline then. Use a class of a more representative power level. Pick something like warlock from the middle of the pack.

If a sorcerer is less powerful than a wizard it doesnt follow that the sorcerer needs more power. Maybe, just maybe... we should think about the wizard instead.

I mean this is like calling a two metre tall man short because he isn't the tallest man in the world.

[clash]

Yeah, so dont use the most powerful class as a baseline then. Use a class of a more representative power level. Pick something like warlock from the middle of the pack.

If a sorcerer is less powerful than a wizard it doesnt follow that the sorcerer needs more power. Maybe, just maybe... we should think about the wizard instead.

I mean this is like calling a two metre tall man short because he isn't the tallest man in the world.

I mean fact of the matter is wizard and sorcerer very much fill the same design space. They have a nearly identical spell list. They share a hit dice and proficiencies. If you are going to play a sorcerer you have to compare it to the wizard. It fills a much too similar niche to not do so.

[cutlery]

You are putting sorcery points and metamagic up against only arcane recovery, when in reality it needs to be at least somewhat balanced against all of the above for the sorcerer to be a competitive class.

What will you give warlocks so that they can keep pace? Bards? Those poor, poor martials?


I mean fact of the matter is wizard and sorcerer very much fill the same design space. They have a nearly identical spell list. They share a hit dice and proficiencies. If you are going to play a sorcerer you have to compare it to the wizard. It fills a much too similar niche to not do so.

I think you can say the same about the Warlock; hence the problem.

You can much more easily constrain a wizard by adjusting their spell list. Simply adjust it at the beginning of a game. It is typically their spell list that makes them strong, not their class abilities.

[MrStabby]

I mean fact of the matter is wizard and sorcerer very much fill the same design space. They have a nearly identical spell list. They share a hit dice and proficiencies. If you are going to play a sorcerer you have to compare it to the wizard. It fills a much too similar niche to not do so.

Then fix the perceived conflict in design space. Give the sorcerer access to spells not on the wizard spell list. Or give the sorcerer wildly different features to ritual casting.

It is also reasonable to say that warlock or bard is a more natural comparison as a charisma class with spells known not learned.

[cutlery]

It is also reasonable to say that warlock or bard is a more natural comparison as a charisma class with spells known not learned.


And don't forget how paltry the multiclass options are for the wizard.

As for the lists:

Imagine everyone had one restricted spell list; perhaps the SRD Warlock list. You can use any class to use that list - wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard. Do they seem balanced then?

Then try the reverse - any class can use the full PHB+SCAG+XGtE Wizard list. Did balance change?

[micahaphone]

One class has to have the fewest spells known. Why not the sorcerer? Why should they have more spells known than the ranger? I mean sure they are more focussed on casting, but that is captured by more spell slots, higher level spells, metamagic and access to cantrips.

I would also contend that sorcerers dont generally have more spells than a ranger does - you only get this if you a) pick a ranger subclass that gives you spells and b) conveniently manage to forget about sorcerers having cantrips as well.



I'm very certain that a full caster should have more spells known than a half caster. I don't think having cantrips makes that okay. And yes, you're correct, if we look at only the phb then at 20 sorcerers know 15 spells, 4 more spells than a ranger, and the same number of spells that a paladin prepares. Is the dividing line between full and half caster purely just the number of slots and cantrips? Should a sorcerer have as many spell choices as a paladin?


Part of our issue is that sorcerer subclass options are split across 2 choices, your origin and your metamagic. Yes, a sorcerer can utilize flexible metamagic to its fullest to get out one more fireball per day and 3 of those fireballs they can increase the average damage, assuming empowered metamagic choice. If we're applying that subclass choice to our fireball competition, then we can assume the wizard would be an evocation school subclass. So they get spell sculpting on every fireball, and are adding +5 damage to every fireball, not just to the ones where you roll poorly on the 8d6.




Honestly I think you and I have different expectations for where balance should lie. I believe that you are concerned with maximum efficiency and optimal play whereas I'm looking at play experience, or how it feels. Determining how something feels is a lot more fiddly than determining what a class can do with maximum efficiency, but I think it matters a lot more.
My usual players have a good grasp of the game system but aren't optimizers, I've had a few paladins and none of them have ever multiclassed. In my games, the wizard player can usually do everything the sorcerer can do, and then some. It's disheartening for the player who likes the character concept of innate power to mechanically feel like a second fiddle to the wizard.

[MrStabby]

I'm very certain that a full caster should have more spells known than a half caster. I don't think having cantrips makes that okay. And yes, you're correct, if we look at only the phb then at 20 sorcerers know 15 spells, 4 more spells than a ranger, and the same number of spells that a paladin prepares. Is the dividing line between full and half caster purely just the number of slots and cantrips? Should a sorcerer have as many spell choices as a paladin?


Part of our issue is that sorcerer subclass options are split across 2 choices, your origin and your metamagic. Yes, a sorcerer can utilize flexible metamagic to its fullest to get out one more fireball per day and 3 of those fireballs they can increase the average damage, assuming empowered metamagic choice. If we're applying that subclass choice to our fireball competition, then we can assume the wizard would be an evocation school subclass. So they get spell sculpting on every fireball, and are adding +5 damage to every fireball, not just to the ones where you roll poorly on the 8d6.




Honestly I think you and I have different expectations for where balance should lie. I believe that you are concerned with maximum efficiency and optimal play whereas I'm looking at play experience, or how it feels. Determining how something feels is a lot more fiddly than determining what a class can do with maximum efficiency, but I think it matters a lot more.
My usual players have a good grasp of the game system but aren't optimizers, I've had a few paladins and none of them have ever multiclassed. In my games, the wizard player can usually do everything the sorcerer can do, and then some. It's disheartening for the player who likes the character concept of innate power to mechanically feel like a second fiddle to the wizard.

I dont actually have too much of an issue with what you are saying and broadly agree with much of it. I think a class can be both frustrating and strong and I see the sorcerer as both.

I also disagree where you compare the sorcerer and wizard, and then conclude the sorcerer should change. I would suggest comparing sorcerer to wizard, sorcerer to warlock, wizard to sorcerer and then with a broader set of comparisons you can see if the wizard does the same to other casters as it does to the sorcerer and if other classes do the same to the sorcerer as the wizard does. Then conclude if the outlier is the sorcerer or the wizard then focus on fixing the real outlier.

[cutlery]

My usual players have a good grasp of the game system but aren't optimizers, I've had a few paladins and none of them have ever multiclassed. In my games, the wizard player can usually do everything the sorcerer can do, and then some. It's disheartening for the player who likes the character concept of innate power to mechanically feel like a second fiddle to the wizard.

Can't you design moments where a subtle spell or distant spell can save the day?

Without sorcerer exclusives, the two will feel very much the same when casting the same spells. If there aren't any chances for metamagic to make the sorcerer feel different, it won't feel that different.

If it were me, I'd probably convert wizards back to specific memorized spells per day - I don't think that was a particularly great change, but its less fiddly which seems like a design goal.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm very certain that a full caster should have more spells known than a half caster. I don't think having cantrips makes that okay. And yes, you're correct, if we look at only the phb then at 20 sorcerers know 15 spells, 4 more spells than a ranger, and the same number of spells that a paladin prepares. Is the dividing line between full and half caster purely just the number of slots and cantrips? Should a sorcerer have as many spell choices as a paladin? I've been a fan of 20-22 for a sorc at 20.

[micahaphone]

I dont actually have too much of an issue with what you are saying and broadly agree with much of it. I think a class can be both frustrating and strong and I see the sorcerer as both.

I also disagree where you compare the sorcerer and wizard, and then conclude the sorcerer should change. I would suggest comparing sorcerer to wizard, sorcerer to warlock, wizard to sorcerer and then with a broader set of comparisons you can see if the wizard does the same to other casters as it does to the sorcerer and if other classes do the same to the sorcerer as the wizard does. Then conclude if the outlier is the sorcerer or the wizard then focus on fixing the real outlier.

I agree that wizards are probably overtuned, but I don't see a wizard nerf ever being perceived well or accepted. It's especially never coming from the publishers (they're not "Druids of the Mountain" and all that).
I also don't particularly know how'd I do so. Buffing the sorc feels a lot easier than nerfing the wizard but I am curious if you have any ideas.



Can't you design moments where a subtle spell or distant spell can save the day?

Without sorcerer exclusives, the two will feel very much the same when casting the same spells. If there aren't any chances for metamagic to make the sorcerer feel different, it won't feel that different.

If it were me, I'd probably convert wizards back to specific memorized spells per day - I don't think that was a particularly great change, but its less fiddly which seems like a design goal.

Hey, here's one suggestion for nerfing wizard! Personally this doesn't sit right with me, seems to go against 5e design philosophy, but this could also purely just be me having a knee-jerk reaction to vancian style. I did not like that in pathfinder.

They had twin and subtle. Subtle certainly got its chances to shine, and twin haste was nice, but those ended up being niche scenarios, with twin haste being mostly due to the sorc getting tired of having 1 "best" use for their concentration in every fight.
In a general day-to-day adventuring time, the wizard could do just about anything the sorcerer wanted to do, and have more options and flexibility than the sorc. The sorcerer has to specialize into blasting or control, while the wizard can do it all at about 90% the efficiency as the sorc who specializes.


I've been a fan of 20-22 for a sorc at 20.

So roughly follow the spells known of a bard? I like it.

[cutlery]

In a general day-to-day adventuring time, the wizard could do just about anything the sorcerer wanted to do, and have more options and flexibility than the sorc. The sorcerer has to specialize into blasting or control, while the wizard can do it all at about 90% the efficiency as the sorc who specializes.


I think a handful of more spells known probably isn't the end of the world for a sorcerer; provided the list is the same.

I think it is true that it is more difficult to find a niche as a (traditionally) arcane caster alongside a wizard; it's almost a certainty that a sorcerer can be a better buffer than a wizard, with twinned spell, I guess.


You'd have much the same problem with two wizards in the group. One would probably slightly outshine the other for differences of archetype or whatever.

I'm in a group with a bard face that never took expertise in persuasion, so my warlock is technically "better" at that. Just how it is; the pillars are simplified enough that with enough players you'll end up with characters that similarly manage and approach one role in that pillar.

In either of those cases, if the wizard or sorcerer wants to distinguish themselves, they need to either (1) get better at $thing than the other - the sorcerer can do this with empower for blasting and twin for buffing, or (2) start doing something the other player doesn't do. This is in the wizard's wheelhouse, because with money and time they can increase their spell access, but the sorcerer can always have a few control spells, a few aoe spells, and a few buff spells in their kit, so they can always do a thing the wizards isn't doing - and vice versa. Half the challenge with controlling a battlefield is choosing to do it instead of blowing stuff up.


When it comes down to tossing spells; most of the casters will feel pretty similar when they are using their actions to use the same sorts of spells. A warlock, wizard, bard, or sorcerer casting shatter or thunderwave all feel pretty much the same for that round.

On the other hand, when you absolutely want to make a medium bad evil guy fail a save, sorcerer is the way, without a whole lot in the way of building their character to do it (take heightened spell, boom).

[KorvinStarmast]

So roughly follow the spells known of a bard? I like it. Yep. I think that wold be fine.

Granted: the way that wands work in 5e, having a couple of wands, uncommon and rare, 1 each, goes a long way toward doing two things.
a. Making the game feel more like OD&D
b. Stretching out the options a bit.

[Edea]

If Metamagic and Flexible Casting used separate resources, which one should stick with the sorcery point resource and what new resource would the other one potentially use?

[cutlery]

If Metamagic and Flexible Casting used separate resources, which one should stick with the sorcery point resource and what new resource would the other one potentially use?

I don't see how separating them is an improvement.

Maybe make it so the conversion is no longer lossy; same cost to go from points to spells and back; perhaps place a cap on how many spell levels can be converted per long rest: You may only gain as many spell levels created in this way as your sorcerer level. I don't really think the cap is even needed, though.

So you could still cannibalize lower level slots for more 3/4/5th level slots, if you wished, and swap them back around and re-juggle your points and slots.

Really - just go ahead and make sorcerers use spell points already. I suspect this would make them considerably stronger, though, so perhaps slightly fewer total spell points would help.

Otherwise, Warlocks might need a more generous spell slot progression for this to feel right.

[loki_ragnarock]

A toned down version of that mechanic would be you recover your proficiency bonus worth of sorcery points per short rest.


Well, 3 sorcerer wouldn't be as bad as hexblade, but that's a pretty low investment for every other caster to mostly benefit from the sorcerer's schtick without having to invest many levels into it... in fact, it's too much so, given that you only need 17 levels of the other class to net your 9th level spells.

Proficiency - while elegant in it's own way - scales with multi-classing in a way that undermines taking the pure class.

I'd say scale it as 1/3 your total sorcery points recovered per short rest. It's a low enough effective number that you won't see excess slot generation at low levels, a high enough number to supplement using metamagic more often, and tied to a number that's dependent on actually being a sorcerer.

With that math:
A third level sorcerer gets back 1 point, a sixth level sorcerer gets back 2 points, a 9th level sorcerer gets back 3 points, twelve 4 points, fifteen 5 points, and eighteen with 6 points.

That's close to proficiency scaling without the problem of proficiency scaling.

It also puts a soft cap on too many spell slots for the appropriate levels. Assuming two short rests a day and recovered points being used only for spell slot recovery, the third level sorcerer would net an extra 1st level slot per day; a boon, but hardly game breaking. The sixth level sorcerer could get an extra 2nd level slot, or two 1st level slots; again, an advantage, but not an overwhelming one. The ninth level sorcerer is really starting to grow into their power, though, regaining a 4th level slot, a 3rd level slot, two 2nd level slots, a 2nd and 1st level slot, or 3 1st level slots; that feels like the amount of investment into sorcerer that a character should have before they start getting that kind of flexibility.

From there, anyone grabbing sorcerer levels isn't dipping sorcerer so much as dipping something else, so I'm a little less concerned about the outcomes.
But for completions sake:
Sorcerer 12 would be able to regain a 5th level slot, a 4th level slot and a 1st level slot, a 3rd level slot and a 2nd level slot, three 2nd level slots, or 4 1st level slots.
Sorcerer 15 would be able to regain a 5th level slot, a 4th level slot and a 2nd level slot, a 4th level slot and two 1st level slots, two 3rd level slots, three 2nd level slots, or 5 1st level slots.
Sorcerer 18 would be able to regain a 5th level slot and a 3rd level slot, a 5th level slot and two 2nd level slots, a 5th level slot and three 1st level slots, two 4th level slots, a 4th level slot and a 3rd level slot, a 4th level slot and 2 second level slots, a 4th level slot and a 2nd level slot and a 1st level slot, two 3rd level slots and a 1st level slot, a 3rd level slot and two 2nd level slots, a 3rd level slot and three 1st level slots, four 2nd level slots, three 2nd level slots and a 1st level slot, two 2nd level slots and three 1st level slots, one 2nd level slot and four 1st level slots, or six 1st level slots.

I am out of breath. Give me a moment.

Phew.

So what that illustrates is that it would never allow for more than one 5th level spell slot to be recovered in a day, but that there'd be alot of potential variation in how those spell slots are recovered. So... different from arcane recovery, significantly more flexible
It would certainly encourage sorcerers to... not dip warlock. It would carve out a niche as the high level casters who cast a metric butt of low level spells. It also seems like it would make up for some of the hard feelings sorcerers get for having a truncated spell list in addition to fewer spells known than a ranger; less variety, more frequency. Or more instances of metamagic, which should be on darned near every spell cast to justify the limitations of sorcerer's anyway.

Meanwhile, the warlock or bard who dropped 3 levels into sorcerer is getting 1 sorcerer point back, as it should be.

There's my two clipped coppers.

[cutlery]

It also seems like it would make up for some of the hard feelings sorcerers get for having a truncated spell list in addition to fewer spells known than a ranger.

I for one would sure like playing a ranger with the same number of spells known as the sorcerer but access to the sorcerer list!

[loki_ragnarock]

I for one would sure like playing a ranger with the same number of spells known as the sorcerer but access to the sorcerer list!

I'd love to be a sorcerer that gets some flavor of extra attack like a ranger.

Sadly, that's been relegated to bards and wizards and wildshaped druids.

[cutlery]

I'd love to be a sorcerer that gets some flavor of extra attack like a ranger.

Sadly, that's been relegated to bards and wizards and wildshaped druids.

Favored Soul got an extra attack at 6, but it was watered down into the Divine Soul; perhaps it was too strong, or so the surveys indicated; I guess you'd only need to dip two levels of paladin to bring the smitestation fully operational.

I don't see why a reflavored bladesinger wouldn't work; with the goodies available at appropriate levels (bladesong at 1st, etc). Not AL legal, of course.

[Edea]

I think another factor the devs were very wary about regarding the sorcerer's recharge method is just how quick it is, and the fact that not all campaigns are going to use the suggested rest mechanics.

Wizards and even warlocks still need that short rest for their recovery mechanic. Sorcerer gives zero sheets about short-resting; if they need another 3rd level slot? Bonus action, BAM. There's the slots.

As for the pathetically low spells known total, again I think they were afraid, this time of metamagic. I think they tried to curate the sorcerer's list explicitly so that certain spells would be very unlikely to get twisted by metamagic feats, and so that any given sorcerer would only be able to twist a very small repertoire of them.

[Aimeryan]

Spell Point Variant for Spell Slots. Sorcery Points for Metamagic with Proficiency restore on Short Rest. Change capstone to something interesting (doesn't need to be more powerful per say, but needs to be interesting). Half a dozen more spells known. More Metamagic known.

That would close the gap with Wizard somewhat. Wizard would still have way more spells known and still more prepared than the Sorcerer knows. Would still have Wizard exclusive spell list. Would still have ritual casting and all the spells to make full use of that. Would still have better subclass features. But hey, least Sorcerer would be able to do its shtick more reliably.

~~~

As for Spellcasters dominating over martials at higher levels? I think you need to look at the higher level spells to sort that one out, and it affect all casters vs all martials. Personally, not a fan of Spell Levels 7-9 as being class features due to just how powerful they are. Legendary items, artifacts, sure. Sort that out and you might get some caster on caster multiclassing going.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I mean fact of the matter is wizard and sorcerer very much fill the same design space. They have a nearly identical spell list. They share a hit dice and proficiencies. If you are going to play a sorcerer you have to compare it to the wizard. It fills a much too similar niche to not do so.
This is debatable. For a Dragon Sorcerer HP/AC are more similar to Bard, Warlock, and Druid. I don't find the constant comparisons to Wizard compelling because Sorcerer Subclasses have the ability to be a significant bump in other areas. Just that some subclasses are weak in a class where a lot of the power comes from them.

[MrStabby]

I agree that wizards are probably overtuned, but I don't see a wizard nerf ever being perceived well or accepted. It's especially never coming from the publishers (they're not "Druids of the Mountain" and all that).
I also don't particularly know how'd I do so. Buffing the sorc feels a lot easier than nerfing the wizard but I am curious if you have any ideas.



If you want to bring sorcerer in line with wizard whilst preserving balance and to be changing the sorcerer rather than the wizard, then you need a package that buffs the sorcerer but also the fighter, rogue, monk ranger, barbarian etc.. If you want to make something better whilst not making everything else worse you need to simultaniously consider what you are going to do to protect other areas of balance. I consider it easier to adjust the wizard than do all this.

I just think it is a bit myopic to compare the sorcerer to only one class. I think that some, though not all, are also being a bit disingenuous by comparing it to the most powerful option and ignoring all the others. Something being less good than the wizard proves nothing, and certainly not showing that the game would benefit from it being closer to the wizard's power.

An alternative method is to change the sorcerer without changing the power level. Give something up even as you add something. If the sorcerer is oh-so-screwed unfairly by the shortage of spells known then add a metamagic that allows spells to be shifted about. The sorcerer can select this rather than a different metamagic and it is at least an attempt to keep things in balance. Add more feats that give you spells known to the game - you can pay an ASI for this if you value it so much. Giving up something helps slow the power creep on this powerful class. Or homebrew a bloodline that gives you more spells as one of the subclass abilities - you give up subclass features for this big boost.

If metamagic is the limitation then allow the UA feat that supports it. You can make the class less annoying and tailored to the interests of those that would like to play it without making it more powerful and making the game less well balanced.


This is where the OP has gone wrong I believe, there is an effort to fix what they don't like about the sorcerer only by adding power rather than by give and take to preserve balance with all the other classes.

[patchyman]

I agree that wizards are probably overtuned, but I don't see a wizard nerf ever being perceived well or accepted. It's especially never coming from the publishers (they're not "Druids of the Mountain" and all that).


My impression from the initial post was that we were discussing home game balancing, rather than official nerfs to the class.

I don’t think WotC will nerf any class midway through an edition, so it is just more productive to discuss home game balancing.



Hey, here's one suggestion for nerfing wizard! Personally this doesn't sit right with me, seems to go against 5e design philosophy, but this could also purely just be me having a knee-jerk reaction to vancian style.

An easy nerf is just to remove Arcane Recovery. Wizards are sufficiently strong that they are competitive without Arcane Recovery (especially if you consider subclasses and Ritual Magic boosting their spells cast per day).

Sorcerers becomes the undisputed champion of most spells per day (unless you need to cast a bunch of ritual spells).

Wizards have to console themselves with simply:
- having Ritual Magic;
- really strong subclasses;
- choosing from a larger and more versatile spell list;
- being able to prepare more spells per day; and
- being able to tailor their spell list from day to day.

I think they will be OK.

[cutlery]

An easy nerf is just to remove Arcane Recovery.


It only works up to 5th level spells, anyway, and I don't think that would satisfy OP because spell points already offer more recovery with leftover points.

They want sorcerer on the fly adaptability without the picking and choosing of spells known.

15 total spells really isn't that bad since you can replace them as you level. Take feats to learn more (or gain more spell points). As noted, the origin features range in strength, but the strong ones are strong (shadow, divine soul, draconic bloodline). The UA Psionic Soul even has a way to access un-known spells from the list.


Anyway, through 10th the Sorcerer already tends to have more spells known than the warlock (usually one, invocations aside) and can already cast more spells in most adventuring days.

Making the sorcerer more adaptable will widen the gap between them and warlocks, possibly narrow the gap between sorcerers and wizards, and make a class that is already strong relative to every other class stronger.

[patchyman]

I don't think that's right, because wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks are designed to do different things, and excel with different types of adventuring day.

Let's arbitrarily use FPDs (fireballs per day) as a unit of measure at 10th level; with the caveat that a 10d6 fireball is 20% more "firebally" than a 8d6 fireball.

One, fantastically long 25 round combat encounter and then a long rest? Sorcerer pulls ahead. They and the wizard can both toss 3 3rd, 3 4th, and 2 5th level fireballs; 8 FPD, but: The sorcerer can choose, mid combat, to turn 5 sorcery points into a 3rd level fireball, 6 into a 4th, or 7 into a 5th; to maximize FPDs, they might use two bonus actions in that mega-combat to eke out two more fireballs, so 10 FPD. A wizard can't do anything with arcane recovery; so they're stuck at 8 FPD.

A wizard cannot burn harder, and a warlock was in the back row using eldritch blast long ago, anyway.


I disagree with your conclusion here. Let me explain why.

What does a 25-round encounter look like? From experience, it is actually a series of encounters without the party being able to take a short rest in between. To get to the heart of my point, spamming fireball is not the best tactic for such a fight (though it may be the best tactic for certain parts of it).

So the sorcerer spams fireball each round. At 10th level, he has 11 spells known which he must spread over 3 pillars and 5 spell levels. He probably has a couple of other spells that could come in useful in the fight, but (for example) he is unlikely to be able to Web the access point of some of the monsters to buy time, or to be able to effectively target a monsterÂ’s poor Int save.

The wizard has 15 spells prepared (chosen out of at least 24 total spells). His spells are more tactically effective, because he can afford to be more versatile and flexible than the sorcerer (that is his schtick, after all).

So, in a 25-round fight, the sorcerer can cast 10 fireballs (at the expense of his metamagic) while the wizard can cast 8 spells of the same level that are more efficient.

The sorcerer can instead make his spells more efficient (by using metamagic), but then he is down to 8spells, tied with the wizard. Sounds like the two casters are pretty even in this scenario.



In a day with one SR: The wizard can regain one fireball at 10th; bringing him to 9 FPD. A sorcerer can match this if she wishes, bringing her to 9 FPD, but with 3-5 sorcery points left (depending on what level of fireball the wizard makes); The sorcerer has matched the wizard, blast for blast, and still has a pool for metamagic to fall back on. The warlock still trails, dismally, at 4 FPD.

Same analysis as above applies To this situation.



Slow dungeon crawl with lots of short rests possible? Warlock pulls ahead in terms of 10d6 fireballs per day at 10th; and can probably outpace the others in FPDs, too - 2 10d6 fireballs per SR. Enough short rests and a Warlock's FPD is nearly infinite - though the rest of the party will be ready for rest long before the warlock reaches 10 FPD.

Dungeon crawl with lots of short rests? Great! Wizard is using Detect Magic and Identify at 0 slots to contribute to the party. What is the Sorcerer doing?

But letÂ’s extend this:
- Day with little combat but lots of social encounters?
SorcererÂ’s Cha skills probably edge out the wizardÂ’s Lore skills in usefulness, but the Wizard has more spells (access to, prepared or in spellbook) so overall, the Wizard is better or competitive.
-Day with lots of exploration? When isnÂ’t being the caster with the most versatility super useful?

Being flexible and versatile is a useful niche. The problem is when you donÂ’t give up any power to do so.

[cutlery]

Dungeon crawl with lots of short rests? Great! Wizard is using Detect Magic and Identify at 0 slots to contribute to the party. What is the Sorcerer doing?

But letÂ’s extend this:
- Day with little combat but lots of social encounters?
SorcererÂ’s Cha skills probably edge out the wizardÂ’s Lore skills in usefulness, but the Wizard has more spells (access to, prepared or in spellbook) so overall, the Wizard is better or competitive.
-Day with lots of exploration? When isnÂ’t being the caster with the most versatility super useful?

Being flexible and versatile is a useful niche. The problem is when you donÂ’t give up any power to do so.



The player chose a sorcerer in that case. They had the PHB, had access to a wizard, and didn't want one.

You could just as easily say that a rogue or ranger has extra attack envy when partied with a fighter.

Giving the rogue and ranger more attacks doesn't fix balance, it wrecks it. Ditto for ritual casting for the sorcerer. Especially when ritual casting is available as a feat from level 1. Want to be a sorcerer who can also sometimes play the ritual game? That is easy to do, and they can do it from level 1.

If a player wants a caster with the "most" versatility and makes a sorcerer instead, they have made a mistake. Making the sorcerer class more powerful isn't the answer. Reflavoring the wizard to feel like it (without adding metamagic, of course) might be.

As has been pointed out several times in this thread, the wizard is the most powerful and versatile class in the game.

Compare the sorcerer to a bard or a warlock, and think about how bard and warlock might stack up in these situations. A bard has access to ritual-cast detect magic, too - does that make them sufficiently outclass a sorcerer such that a sorcerer also needs inspiration dice?

[patchyman]

The player chose a sorcerer in that case. They had the PHB, had access to a wizard, and didn't want one.

You could just as easily say that a rogue or ranger has extra attack envy when partied with a fighter.

Giving the rogue and ranger more attacks doesn't fix balance, it wrecks it. Ditto for ritual casting for the sorcerer. Especially when ritual casting is available as a feat from level 1. Want to be a sorcerer who can also sometimes play the ritual game? That is easy to do, and they can do it from level 1.

I don’t know where you got the idea that I want the sorcerer to be as flexible and versatile as the wizard. I don’t. As a matter of fact, I am against the sorcerer receiving more spells known because it makes the sorcerer resemble the wizard more (though I am in favour of both the sorcerer getting access to more spells and getting access to more metamagics).

I am against buffing the sorcerer so it competes with the wizard when the problem isn’t that the sorcerer is weak, it’s that the wizard is too strong.

To get back to my stated point: flexible and versatile is a great niche, but it isn’t really a niche if you don’t give up anything for it.

As for the OP, his proposal has been rejected by virtually every poster in the thread as overpowered, and as essentially replacing the warlock. At this stage, the more interesting question is micaphone’s: in a party with a (non-divine soul) sorcerer and a wizard, how do you ensure the sorcerer doesn’t feel outclassed?

[cutlery]

in a party with a (non-divine soul) sorcerer and a wizard, how do you ensure the sorcerer doesn’t feel outclassed?

I think there are a number of classes and archetypes that have this problem; and you could say the same thing about a bard and sorcerer (the bard can do almost all the same casting as the sorcerer, with access to other lists, and then other stuff). An archer fighter alongside an archer ranger gets to the same sort of problem.

If the sorcerer player can't think of ways to make metamagic work for them in terms of feeling different - at some point that isn't the DM's fault.

A sorcerer could easily feel that way alongside a bard or a warlock (and have some of the same upstream complaints about ritual casting with a tome warlock, and with the bard).

It might be on the DM to point this out at character creation - if a player wants to feel like they are the one with the spell solutions, that won't always be the case when there are other full casters in the party. Just as a martial won't always be the one making big crits when there are other martials in the party.


The problem, as you've described it, is one where a player picks a class without thinking about (or being aware of) the inbuilt limitations of that class, and then playing alongside other classes (and it need not solely be wizard) that don't have these limitations. I think pointing these out early is a better call, just as one might do before a player rolls up a PHB ranger.

If you point this out (or it is an experienced player) - they've made their bed. You can't just give them stuff without irritating the wizard player, and possibly others in the party, too.

You certainly can't take stuff away from the wizard (or bard, or warlock) after the fact just to make the sorcerer player feel better, either.

[loki_ragnarock]

To get back to my stated point: flexible and versatile is a great niche, but it isn’t really a niche if you don’t give up anything for it.
I think the counterpoint is that Sorcerers aren't particularly flexible or versatile, and so do not fill that niche.

That niche is filled by the wizard... who don't really give up anything for it.

[cutlery]

I think the counterpoint is that Sorcerers aren't particularly flexible or versatile, and so do not fill that niche.

That niche is filled by the wizard... who don't really give up anything for it.

I'm sure many would be all too happy to give up arcane recovery for metamagic and sorcery points.

Or to have an entire pillar of the game revolving around skills that are tied to their main casting stat.

[Master O'Laughs]

I'm sure many would be all too happy to give up arcane recovery for metamagic and sorcery points.

Or to have an entire pillar of the game revolving around skills that are tied to their main casting stat.

It is not just Arcane Recovery but all wizard features (Spell Book, Ritual Casting, Spell Mastery, Signature Spells).

Also, if your DM does not regularly use intelligence skills in the campaign, is that not a failing of the DM? In a campaign I run in, Int skills are just as important as social skills to access information which may be important to the story.

[cutlery]

It is not just Arcane Recovery but all wizard features (Spell Book, Ritual Casting, Spell Mastery, Signature Spells).

Also, if your DM does not regularly use intelligence skills in the campaign, is that not a failing of the DM? In a campaign I run in, Int skills are just as important as social skills to access information which may be important to the story.

Technically that would be the exploration pillar, not the social pillar.


Spell Mastery and Signature spells are awfully late in the game to be part of the comparison; and compete with level 18 origin features and a feature pretty much exactly like what OP originally wanted - SP restoration on short rest.

[patchyman]

I think the counterpoint is that Sorcerers aren't particularly flexible or versatile, and so do not fill that niche.

That niche is filled by the wizard... who don't really give up anything for it.

Exactly. We are in agreement.


I think there are a number of classes and archetypes that have this problem; and you could say the same thing about a bard and sorcerer (the bard can do almost all the same casting as the sorcerer, with access to other lists, and then other stuff.

No it isnÂ’t. What we are talking about is the wizard filling the sorcererÂ’s niche in addition to filling his own: wizards are the most versatile and most flexible caster in addition to being an above average blaster/controller/debuffer.

A fighter archer and an archer ranger are competing for the same niche, and in fact, outside that niche, they are broadly comparable: fighter gets more tankiness, ranger gets spells and exploration utility.

The situation is even more glaring for a bard vs. a sorcerer. A blaster bard vs. a draconic blaster sorcerer? The sorcerer is going to pretty clearly outclass the bard +Cha to appropriate spells, Careful and Empowered. ThatÂ’s OK: the bard has subclass abilities and bardic inspiration.



The problem, as you've described it, is one where a player picks a class without thinking about (or being aware of) the inbuilt limitations of that class, and then playing alongside other classes (and it need not solely be wizard) that don't have these limitations. I think pointing these out early is a better call, just as one might do before a player rolls up a PHB ranger.


Except that is not what IÂ’ve described. IÂ’ve described (in response to micaphone who gave a practical case of this happening) the situation where a wizard is as good as the sorcerer in the sorcererÂ’s niche, without sacrificing the flexibility and versatility of its own niche.

You may disagree. If so, give reasons. But please stop misrepresenting what IÂ’m saying.

[cutlery]

No it isnÂ’t. What we are talking about is the wizard filling the sorcererÂ’s niche in addition to filling his own: wizards are the most versatile and most flexible caster in addition to being an above average blaster/controller/debuffer.

I'd agree if the context for the discussion was a "reign in wizards" topic - and I think going back to preparing specific slots for the day (like earlier editions) is the best solution. The fact they only have to prepare spells for the day is bonkers, and they can prepare so many.


But: the context for this thread is buffing sorcerers to match wizards. I think that is a mistake.

[Master O'Laughs]

Technically that would be the exploration pillar, not the social pillar.


Spell Mastery and Signature spells are awfully late in the game to be part of the comparison; and compete with level 18 origin features and a feature pretty much exactly like what OP originally wanted - SP restoration on short rest.

Fair enough on the pillars of the game part.

I look at those class features as part of the base wizard kit. So Spell Mastery is competing with the 4th Metamagic option.

Wizard Schools get features at L2, L6, L10, L14
Sorcerer Bloodlines get features at L1, L6, L14, L18

[Master O'Laughs]

I'd agree if the context for the discussion was a "reign in wizards" topic - and I think going back to preparing specific slots for the day (like earlier editions) is the best solution. The fact they only have to prepare spells for the day is bonkers, and they can prepare so many.


But: the context for this thread is buffing sorcerers to match wizards. I think that is a mistake.

As much as that is against the design philosphy of 5e, it is a rather simple fix and brings back part of the identity of Sorcerer (you don't have to worry about spell prep every day).

The opportunity cost for the wizard's utility and flexibility would be having to assign all spells to specific slots... That grows on me a bit (It would also discourage me from wanting to play a wizard).

[cutlery]

As much as that is against the design philosphy of 5e, it is a rather simple fix and brings back part of the identity of Sorcerer (you don't have to worry about spell prep every day).

The opportunity cost for the wizard's utility and flexibility would be having to assign all spells to specific slots... That grows on me a bit (It would also discourage me from wanting to play a wizard).

Yeah, in the context of balancing bards/warlocks/wizards/sorcerers, I think a more true spell-per-slot style of vancian casting works for the wizard (and makes arcane recovery much more important, because they can recover prepared spells).

I'd even wager that was the plan all along, and they softened with playtest feedback - if you look at how rigid the warlock 6th/7th/8th/9th spells are, it fits.

A well prepared wizard will still blow most folks away, but they have to have prepared. I think sorcerers are likely to be unhappy relative to bards in this scenario, but that's just a hunch.

[loki_ragnarock]

I'm sure many would be all too happy to give up arcane recovery for metamagic and sorcery points.

Or to have an entire pillar of the game revolving around skills that are tied to their main casting stat.

I'm sure they would; they actually have flexibility already, which the sorcerer inherently lacks. There is no automatically access all spells of a given level, like all divine full casters. There is no ability to continually expand their access to spells, like a wizard. There is no ability to poach other people's spells, like a bard. And they don't get ritual casting, so slots are all they get.

Sorcerers are the antithesis of versatile and flexible, and sorcery points don't effectively mitigate that; it doesn't allow them to cast more spells than other full casters, the rules interactions for metamagic can be quite limiting, and there aren't enough spell points to apply metamagic meaningfully to all the spells they often enough. So their spells aren't better quality, they aren't better quantity, and they are about the only meaningful class feature they have.

To the second point... a character that knows nothing can't meaningfully contribute to all kinds of social situations. Arcana, Nature, History, Religion; all of these give you a lever to move things in a social setting. Without the ability to gauge another person's reactions with Insight, you've no idea if the informant is lying or truthing, nor would you intuit the specific levers that would work to influence particularly hardass sorts. So the premise that an entire pillar of the game runs exclusively to charisma skills is a touch hyperbolic. But I can say that charisma skills don't have much impact on exploration. You can't Intimidate a cliff face. You can't Persuade a trap. You can't Deception a bobcat. You can't Perform a secret passage.

So the second point is fairly easy to reject; a charisma based caster might have a more straightforward time with the social pillar and be given a chance to shine there, but those aren't the only avenues to influence in that arena. But their charisma based skills are going to be much, much more limited outside of the social pillar, imparting nothing to the exploration pillar the way Wisdom and Intelligence clearly do.
It's no panacea to their other problems, and doesn't meaningfully add flexibility to the sorcerer.

There's alot of focus on sorcerer v. wizard for the arguments, but honestly it's sorcerer v. every other primary spell caster where they come up short. That doesn't mean you debuff the wizard, cleric, druid, and bard. It means you take a hard look at how the sorcerer fails to stack up and why.

[cutlery]

it doesn't allow them to cast more spells than other full casters,

Other than a warlock allowed to short rest as they please, it does. It edges out arcane recovery, but just a bit; the wizard catches up and passes at level 18, but the level 18 origin features tend to be stronger than the wizard school level 14 features.


Compared to bards, clerics, and druids, the sorcerer can potentially cast more spells in a day (once they have spell points to spend on it).



So the premise that an entire pillar of the game runs exclusively to charisma skills is a touch hyperbolic.


If you are trying to argue that intelligence and wisdom are as useful as charisma in the Social pillar (not the exploration pillar, where knowledge skills come into play), I think you're just wrong.



So the second point is fairly easy to reject; a charisma based caster might have a more straightforward time with the social pillar and be given a chance to shine there,


If you have to accept the point before you can get around to rejecting it - I don't think you're rejecting it very well.

In this edition of the game there are three pillars, and one of those pillars is dominated by a particular stat to a degree the others aren't. That stat happens to be a casting stat for four classes, which is a healthy advantage for those classes.

[patchyman]

As much as that is against the design philosphy of 5e, it is a rather simple fix and brings back part of the identity of Sorcerer (you don't have to worry about spell prep every day).

The opportunity cost for the wizard's utility and flexibility would be having to assign all spells to specific slots... That grows on me a bit (It would also discourage me from wanting to play a wizard).

Here’s another option that increases the distinctiveness of sorcerers without being a straight power buff.

At the end of a long rest, sorcerers create their spell slot loadout using the spell points rules. They can have a ton of low level slots, or a large amount of hight level slots or anything in between. They can keep a number of spell points equal to their level “in reseve” for allocation during the day.

They retain the power to remodify their loadout during the day, but use the more punishing “Font of Magic” conversion rate.

This rule allows sorcerers to, for instance, just skip Level 2 spells and reallocate those points to other spell slots.

[Mjolnirbear]

This thread is frustrating in the extreme.

Honestly it's full of stuff I want to shout at people for but the suggestion that we shouldn't compare sorcerers to wizards and instead compare sorcerers to bards and warlocks is...utterly insane.

You compare a class to another that most resembles it. You don't compare the paladin to the barbarian, or the wizard, but to the ranger. I mean, you *could*, but not for the purposes of balance. Because a paladin and a wizard are played completely differently, and for all that they are both martials, so do the paladin and the barbarian.

And sorcerer most resembles wizard.

Same proficiencies, same armour, similar concept and niche, almost cloned spell lists, and Arcane Recovery can be mathematically graphed onto Flexible Magic with exact precision so easily it has been done, what, three times in this thread already?

Attempting to switch the goalposts on this argument is infuriating and intellectually dishonest.

Other comments.

Much as I love love love ritual casting, it does not fit the lore of the sorcerer. Rituals are things you learn, not something you spew out due to an overly magical ancestor.

A wizard and a sorcerer have exactly the same number of multiclassing options. Whoever made that comment, you meant *useful* multiclassing options, and regardless failed to realise that you can plug a sixteen into Wisdom or Charisma as easily as into Dexterity, and so even that distinction has little merit. Because a wizard only really needs one stat, and so can easily multiclass into any other SAD class and reap excellent benefits thereof. Sharing a casting stat isn't necessary, merely a bit of a bonus. But if you want to go that route, wizard has as many options as sorcerer: EK, AT and artificer vs bard, warlock and paladin.

You cannot assume feats are perfectly balanced against each other; see Weapon Master vs PAM, or Ritual Caster: Wizard vs Metamagic Adept: Extend Spell (Or Ritual Castrr: Cleric vs Metamagic Adept: Twin, for that matter).

Personally, I've done a lot of homebrew fixes to the sorcerer, and it's really hard to do well. My current version are subclass spells (one per spell level until 5th); more metamagic options learned; sorcerery point are halved but refresh on a short rest (yes, functionally a 50% increase in spell points, and no, I don't mind if a sorcerer has more spell slots than a wizard at all).

I'm also considering another metamagic: once per day, you may summon magic you don't know. Pick a sorcerer spell you don't know of a level you can cast, and spend sorcery points as though creating a spell slot of that level. You cast the spell and immediately suffer one level of exhaustion.

I wouldn't mind if sorcery points applied only to metamagic. I don't care if sorcerers can cast more Fireball per day or not, but I see no useful way to encourage more metamagic use and more metamagic options without either; separating sorcery points into metamagic or flexible casting points, or; dealing with sorcerers getting to cast more spells. Sorcerers casting more spells was once their thing, and it reflects well with their theme of Born Magical.

One thing I tried once was spell points. The problem was is that it's much less simple and involves using multiple books. As the primary DM I have a multitude of books but my players don't. And among other things, I very much prefer the KISS model of 5e. Having to learn and entirely new spellcasting system for one caster works against that. I agree it would give the sorcerer a lot of what is lacking. It fills the niche of power and flexibility extremely well. But it's lack of simplicity and being buried in the DMG makes it less ideal for my players, who are usually newer to the game and not 3rd edition vets.

[MrStabby]

This thread is frustrating in the extreme.

Honestly it's full of stuff I want to shout at people for but the suggestion that we shouldn't compare sorcerers to wizards and instead compare sorcerers to bards and warlocks is...utterly insane.

You compare a class to another that most resembles it. You don't compare the paladin to the barbarian, or the wizard, but to the ranger. I mean, you *could*, but not for the purposes of balance. Because a paladin and a wizard are played completely differently, and for all that they are both martials, so do the paladin and the barbarian.

And sorcerer most resembles wizard.

Same proficiencies, same armour, similar concept and niche, almost cloned spell lists, and Arcane Recovery can be mathematically graphed onto Flexible Magic with exact precision so easily it has been done, what, three times in this thread already?

You think that bards and warlocks have fewer spells not on the sorcerer list than wizards do? Sure there have been more spells released since I last counted but if I remember correctly there were more spells on the wizard list that the sorc doesn't get than on the bard list.

And you alide over the other points... forcetting things like the casting stat. If you want to be a caster and a face then what classes should you compare? Or what about proficient saves? With charisma saves in common the cleric is argualbly closer to the sorcerer than the wizard is.

You can't just cherry pick features of a cless and ignore others then claim others are being "intellectually dishonest" when they just happen to have a different view on how to measure similarity. Well you can but then you come accross a bit...

[Asisreo1]

Nobody seems to notice (very small detail) but the sorcerer has the exact same number of spells known as the bard up to level 10 (level 6 if they're Valor).

At 1st level, the sorcerer has 6 spells and the bard has 6 spells. Where are my numbers coming from? Let's not forget that Cantrips are indeed spells, the 2 extra 1st-level spells that the bard knows are actually put into the 0-level spells for a sorcerer.

"But isn't that clearly a downgrade? One is a cantrip, the other is a 1st-level spell, clearly stronger."

Think about it: you have more at-will versatility than a bard (and a wizard...at least faster less than 10-minute versatility). The bard can cast 4 of their spells known but their only capable of using 2 before they're locked out from their ability to use them again. They're now reliant on what they have at-will. Sure, they can pick up rituals, but each ritual they take is basically reducing their spells known and converting it to cantrips-known anyways.

And let's be honest, Ritual Spells aren't that great, especially a bard's. Most of what a ritual spell can do can be done through mundane means. And rituals are best left to wizards anyways.

By second level, the sorcerer has more spell slots than the bard. Not only do they have better at-will versatility, but they also have more spell slots. Not saying bards are worse, they aren't, I'm just saying that it's balanced.

The balance continues as 3rd level hits and you have more spell slots possible plus metamagic, possibly at the same time. As I said, this dichotomy lasts until level 10 where the bard gets magical secrets (pretty late, huh?). However, the sorcerer now gets his additional metamagic. Not to mention that around this time, the sorcerer has been the better blaster/nova damage dealer with their potential.

I'd say 11th level is the point where you really want to cannibalize spell slots for higher power spells and metamagics. You're not really needing 2nd-level or 3rd-level spells and even your 4th-level spells may not be needed. Add to the fact that you already have 14 spell points available and you're extremely strong from tier 3+.



Back to low level: the sorcerer has very good highlight spells in their list, spells a bard won't get until level 10 (again acknowledging valor's 6th-level magical secret). Spells like Magic Missile, Shield, and Mage Armor. Add that they have more spellslots for these spells and things are already looking great. At 3rd level, bards miss out on Blur, Darkness, Enlarge/Reduce, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Scorching Ray. At 5th level, sorcerers exclusives (compared to bards) are Counterspell, Fireball, Fly, Haste (The freaking Bard doesn't have Haste), Slow. At 6th level, Valor Bards get to spread their wings, but the fact so many highlight spells are inherently missing for the bard while the sorcerer hardly loses any highlight spells from the bard's side (basically heals and very few debuff spells), shows there's more going on than "spells known on the table is small, therefore sorcerer bad."

[Mjolnirbear]

You think that bards and warlocks have fewer spells not on the sorcerer list than wizards do? Sure there have been more spells released since I last counted but if I remember correctly there were more spells on the wizard list that the sorc doesn't get than on the bard list.

A bard's list is, largely, illusion and enchanting, because that's the bard's primary role (or, perhaps, the role as originally seen by Devs). A sorcerer can build that way...and so can the wizard. But sorcerers also have a wizard's access to blasting spells, something the bard has precious little of. Despite a wizard's larger spell list, and the sorcerer's lack of Named Spells, they can largely prepare the same types of spells.



And you alide over the other points... forcetting things like the casting stat. If you want to be a caster and a face then what classes should you compare? Or what about proficient saves? With charisma saves in common the cleric is argualbly closer to the sorcerer than the wizard is.

You can't just cherry pick features of a cless and ignore others then claim others are being "intellectually dishonest" when they just happen to have a different view on how to measure similarity. Well you can but then you come accross a bit...

How is the casting stat at all relevant? You can't get a 20 Charisma faster. You have the same number of stat-dependant skills. A spell cast using Charisma and the same spell cast using Wisdom will have exactly the same effect and exactly the same chance to strike the target or evade their saving throw.

But we're not comparing ability to role-play, which is what it means to play a face. Because you can be the character that always engages in dialogue, despite not having proficiency in a single Charisma skill. Doing so is, frankly, pointless, because it's all in how you play. But mostly because the discussion of the thread isn't about the Face role versus the Tank or Skill monkey or Sage role, but about bring the sorcerer to par with the wizard. And how you engage each pillar is not relevant at all to a discussion about balance.

It's not cherry-picking to say that the sorcerer most closely matches the Wizard. Because it does. There are exactly two classes that use a d6 hit die, have no armour, similar spell lists, next to no weapon proficiencies, and are capable of blasting, enchanting, support, debuffing, and obstacle removing. With the sole exception of bladesinger, all wizards and all sorcerers are squishy casters, not designed to really excel at melee combat and whose non-spell resources are entirely devoted to the arcane.

All the other full casters have a d8 hit die, short-rest resources, armour proficiency, more weapon proficiencies, and a very different flavour. Furthermore, the d8 subclasses can drastically change how the class plays; a blade lock plays different to a tome lock, a swords bard plays different to a lore bard, a moon druid plays different to a shepherd druid, and a tempest cleric and trickery cleric likewise play very differently. A bard's resources are support and not at all involved with magic; a warlock's resources include invocations which *can* be magical but need not be; à cleric's channel divinity plays dozens of different roles but rarely relate to magic at all whilst a druid's wild shape is all exploration. These are, of course, generalizations; a moon druid's wild shape is obviously more than exploration, for instance. But the only thing these classes have in common with sorcerer/wizard is the fact that they're full casters and what that means for multiclassing.

Wizards and sorcerers are different classes, without a doubt. They have features that are different, and largely different lore. But the base chassis is exactly the same and this chassis is not shared with any other class.

You don't compare a humvee to a sedate family wagon, nor a Ferrari to jeep. The vehicles serve vastly different functions. You compare sedans to sedans, and SUVs to SUVs. Even though SUV1 and SUV2 have different features, different shells, different colours even, they both drive like SUVs and that is why they are compared in groups.

When you make a comparison, you eliminate common variables so that you can focus on actual differences. Wizard and sorcerer have the most common variables with each other. To use an analogy, comparing a cleric to a wizard is comparing a mushroom to an orange. Just because a mushroom and an orange are both fruiting bodies, both disperse germ cells, and both extract nutrients from rotted detritus, doesn't mean that you can expect mushroom juice to catch on. But comparing a sorcerer to a wizard is comparing a lemon to an orange. They have more in common than they have in differences.

And it is dishonest to claim otherwise. I'm not claiming they're the same class or that their features are on par, but the basis for comparison is not at all coming out of left field. Saying it is more appropriate to compare sorcerers to clerics or bards is where I call bullpucky. You *can*. But it's not more appropriate to do so, because they have wildly different chassis'. (chassises? Chassi? Chasses? No clue how that plural works)

[Edea]

...I wonder if anyone's playtested short-rest sorcery point recovery at various scales to see how much it breaks things.

I almost feel like it'd be better to try and get sorcerer separated from wizard so it's not the red-headed stepchild, but the problem is that this is the class's whole original identity: a spontaneous wizard.

I'll also note I'm like, 90+% positive that the sorcerer was the last class designed; pretty sure it was just called 'mage' before being split into wizard and sorcerer again, and I kind-of wish they hadn't done that.

[Mjolnirbear]

Nobody seems to notice (very small detail) but the sorcerer has the exact same number of spells known as the bard up to level 10 (level 6 if they're Valor).

At 1st level, the sorcerer has 6 spells and the bard has 6 spells. Where are my numbers coming from? Let's not forget that Cantrips are indeed spells, the 2 extra 1st-level spells that the bard knows are actually put into the 0-level spells for a sorcerer.

"But isn't that clearly a downgrade? One is a cantrip, the other is a 1st-level spell, clearly stronger."

Think about it: you have more at-will versatility than a bard (and a wizard...at least faster less than 10-minute versatility). The bard can cast 4 of their spells known but their only capable of using 2 before they're locked out from their ability to use them again. They're now reliant on what they have at-will. Sure, they can pick up rituals, but each ritual they take is basically reducing their spells known and converting it to cantrips-known anyways.

And let's be honest, Ritual Spells aren't that great, especially a bard's. Most of what a ritual spell can do can be done through mundane means. And rituals are best left to wizards anyways.

By second level, the sorcerer has more spell slots than the bard. Not only do they have better at-will versatility, but they also have more spell slots. Not saying bards are worse, they aren't, I'm just saying that it's balanced.

The balance continues as 3rd level hits and you have more spell slots possible plus metamagic, possibly at the same time. As I said, this dichotomy lasts until level 10 where the bard gets magical secrets (pretty late, huh?). However, the sorcerer now gets his additional metamagic. Not to mention that around this time, the sorcerer has been the better blaster/nova damage dealer with their potential.

I'd say 11th level is the point where you really want to cannibalize spell slots for higher power spells and metamagics. You're not really needing 2nd-level or 3rd-level spells and even your 4th-level spells may not be needed. Add to the fact that you already have 14 spell points available and you're extremely strong from tier 3+.



Back to low level: the sorcerer has very good highlight spells in their list, spells a bard won't get until level 10 (again acknowledging valor's 6th-level magical secret). Spells like Magic Missile, Shield, and Mage Armor. Add that they have more spellslots for these spells and things are already looking great. At 3rd level, bards miss out on Blur, Darkness, Enlarge/Reduce, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Scorching Ray. At 5th level, sorcerers exclusives (compared to bards) are Counterspell, Fireball, Fly, Haste (The freaking Bard doesn't have Haste), Slow. At 6th level, Valor Bards get to spread their wings, but the fact so many highlight spells are inherently missing for the bard while the sorcerer hardly loses any highlight spells from the bard's side (basically heals and very few debuff spells), shows there's more going on than "spells known on the table is small, therefore sorcerer bad."

I value cantrips a lot; I have yet to build any caster without Magic Initiate. All my casters have at least one Disney Princess spell (minor illusion, shape water, mold earth, prestidigitation).

But they're not the same as levelled spells.

There are very few times in combat you would cast a cantrip.

1. You are conserving (or have no) spell slots. You therefore see decent cantrip use at low levels, but almost never at high levels.
2. You have a special build (quickened firebolt, death cleric with chill touch, Artillerist, SCAG builds, and the agonising blast lock for example)

You *can* use a cantrip in combat, but when you have spells, a measly two dice of damage or minor utility of cantrips vs Fireball or the vastly superior utility of levelled spells like Web or Faerie Fire or Suggestion or Shield or Healing Word...well, why would you use a cantrip?

It's not useful to compare them this way, because they're not used the same way.

They are wonderfully useful. An imaginative player can do so much with them. But damage cantrips are balanced on being the 'out of spells' option and utility cantrips have mostly minor effects that are useful for story purposes.

It is absolutely one of the advantages of the sorcerer over all other casters that they get more cantrips. But it's kinda like a battle master's art of war or a rogue's second story work or a wizard's ability to cast rituals they haven't prepared. It's more about selling the flavour than a truly balancing factor, in general.

[micahaphone]

I feel like there's a sharp drop off in usefulness of cantrips after you have a certain number. Like, when I'm playing a higher level character and I get a new cantrip, I sometimes have to search for what to take. 1 roll to attack, 1 saving throw (diff damage types hopefully), pick your favorite utility cantrip. After that, it's picking up your 2nd or 3rd fav utility cantrip or some more character thematic one. I'd much rather have spells known over cantrips personally.

[Edea]

Also, apparently the alternate class features for the sorcerer in the upcoming splat...all revolve around MORE WAYS to spend the sorcery points (so useless, basically). Not a single recovery mechanic in sight.

[Frogreaver]

What if you doubled the sorcery points and doubled the cost to convert them to spells but kept the metamagic costs the same?

[Asisreo1]

I feel like there's a sharp drop off in usefulness of cantrips after you have a certain number. Like, when I'm playing a higher level character and I get a new cantrip, I sometimes have to search for what to take. 1 roll to attack, 1 saving throw (diff damage types hopefully), pick your favorite utility cantrip. After that, it's picking up your 2nd or 3rd fav utility cantrip or some more character thematic one. I'd much rather have spells known over cantrips personally.


There are very few times in combat you would cast a cantrip.

Absolutely. I 100% agree. But that's the thing: you only ever really need 1 or 2 attack cantrips in-battle. All cantrips after are niche in combat or powerful out-of-combat.

You can take firebolt for your attack cantrip (I personally take ray of frost), then you can take minor illusion, prestidigation, and mage hand all at once. These spells are incredibly useful out of combat and extremely fun. They aren't something you're doing in-combat. But in-combat, you've basically taken the highlight spells a wizard can and taken less specific utility cantrips anyways.

What's next? Well, it depends but any new power you gain is likely to still have great function. Mending is great for repairing things you or somebody else broken. Message is short-range telecommunication and very useful for sharing ideas privately. Friends can let you talk to people you couldn't otherwise, it does have it's limits, though. If you're in danger and still will be after you cast your spell, you can quicken the spell and use blade ward to give yourself resistance.

Sorcerers are well-to-do in their regular casting and their utility in overall and slightly niche areas. At-will and per-spell-slot. They have excellent concentration innately.

[cutlery]

So, if metamagic sucks and wizards do all the things you want to do - why not play a wizard? Talk to your DM about flavoring the spellbook as tattoos, if you like. The classes are simply bags of mechanics, and other than metamagic, it sounds like people don't like wizards because they don't like the concept of a character with book learning. The main mechanical difference used to be specific slot memorization, but that was apparently too tedious so no one does it anymore (save for Warlocks, who do it forever above 5th).



...unless maybe there really is something to charisma as casting stat. People have argued in this thread that intelligence is a good stat with useful skills, but the game doesn't play that way - intelligence is a dump stat; sometimes even for 1/3 casters that use it as a casting stat.

Oh, and proficiency with con saves - sure, a wizards can just get that with a feat, but if a feat is in the comparison a sorcerer can just pick up ritual caster. Of course, if you're using the rules for copying spells into a spellbook dumped int and no proficiency in arcana might make that bad; and of course, you're back to carrying a book around like a wizNerd.

If the wizard list is part of the balance; sorcerers get charisma casting with the (most of the) wizard list, and no pesky spellbook to lose, read, or add things to. Less bookkeeping, too.

But, if you want versatility, Warlock, Bard, and Wizard are right there in the PHB. You could say the same for someone who thinks the Champion is boring - Battlemaster is right there.

It isn't even remotely as bad as the PHB Ranger.

[Sparky McDibben]

Just had a thought, would this be too bonkers?

Sorcery Points refresh on a Short Rest.

They can only be converted into Spell Slots once per Long Rest.

Sorcerers get 2 metamagic whenever they currently get 1.

Alternative question: what measures would be necessary to balance Sorcery Points refreshing on a Short Rest?

I did a fair bit of math on this once, and had a bunch of people lose their godd*mn minds at me. :) Personally, it worked well in my game. I think a lot of people are concerned about folks abusing animate dead, or trying an exploit like coffeelocking.

For me, if that becomes an issue, I would restrict the exploit in a different way ("these corpses are way too mangled to be animated") or I'd leave it alone and turn the exploit into a problem to solve ("Your sorcery points are regenerating on a short rest because you're drawing your power through an innate wellspring to Limbo, which has infected you with chaos phage. As you grow more powerful, you'll eventually turn into a slaad! This has happened three times before. The first time a slaad infestation wiped out three nations. The second time a group of clerics purged every arcane caster in a 50-mile radius. The third time they cured it, but that was 800 years ago and no one knows how they did it, only that the githzerai were intimately involved. Good luck.").

This assumes you've had a conversation with your players first, though. Make sure they're onboard with this being a trial run (and that therefore, it might not be a permanent change). Setting expectations is key here.

[loki_ragnarock]

...unless maybe there really is something to charisma as casting stat. People have argued in this thread that intelligence is a good stat with useful skills, but the game doesn't play that way - intelligence is a dump stat; sometimes even for 1/3 casters that use it as a casting stat.


The only thing charisma based casting is good for in this edition is when you intend to not be a sorcerer; it synergizes well with paladins, warlocks, and bards. And... that's it. There is no other boon to that particular casting stat. So if you don't actually want to be "x charisma casting class," then there's a boon to charisma in the synergy with classes.
Especially the synergy with warlock. Egad, why not? But that isn't a really a meaningful plus for the sorcerer; "I'm better equipped to stop being a sorcerer."

Intelligence as a dump stat is sort of a given; there is one Int based class (two, actually, with the johnny come lately Artificer). There are four Wisdom based classes. There are 4 Charisma based classes. The remainder are physically based.

Outside of the 4 classes that are charisma based, you'll likely find charisma as a dump stat as often as intelligence. Outside of strength focused classes (barbarians, heavy weapon users, most barbarians), you'll see strength dumped as often as intelligence.

The two 1/3 casters are primarily tied to other physical stats, and the nature of their subclasses tend to insulate them from negative consequences of simply continuing to focus on those physical stats.

The notion charisma is inherently superior to int as a casting stat because it can be dumped at a very slightly higher rate than charisma and strength isn't a very strong foundation for declaring a victory for the Sorcerer.

[Aimeryan]

The only thing charisma based casting is good for in this edition is when you intend to not be a sorcerer; it synergizes well with paladins, warlocks, and bards...

I know for myself I will never play a pure Sorcerer; multiclassing is key to mitigating their weaknesses and the only reason to play one over a Wizard. The Sorcerer class is good fuel for the Charisma-based bonfire; the distinguishing features tend to come from whatever you pair it with. Metamagic is an edge best used with other classes.

[Frogreaver]

I know for myself I will never play a pure Sorcerer; multiclassing is key to mitigating their weaknesses and the only reason to play one over a Wizard. The Sorcerer class is good fuel for the Charisma-based bonfire; the distinguishing features tend to come from whatever you pair it with. Metamagic is an edge best used with other classes.

One thing I've found that can really shore up a sorcerer's spells known is to multiclass into 1 level of bard. Gives you 4 additional level 1 spells which really helps.

[Mjolnirbear]

So, if metamagic sucks and wizards do all the things you want to do - why not play a wizard? Talk to your DM about flavoring the spellbook as tattoos, if you like. The classes are simply bags of mechanics, and other than metamagic, it sounds like people don't like wizards because they don't like the concept of a character with book learning. The main mechanical difference used to be specific slot memorization, but that was apparently too tedious so no one does it anymore (save for Warlocks, who do it forever above 5th).

"I don't like this fried chicken. The skin is greasy, not crispy, and I can taste that the oil is old." "Why order fried chicken then? Order baked chicken, it looks like it's got everything you asked for."

I see this all the time. You play a class you like, because you like it. It doesn't mean it's free of faults, nor that said faults can't be discussed rationally. But there's always that guy who has to suggest maybe play something else. It's also the second time in this thread someone has basically suggested "you can't have it, give up and play a wizard".

"It's not a real problem. No, look at all the things you get. No, don't look at the wizard, look at the bard, you should compare to the bard because Charisma. Well, I guess life just sucks for you, better start playing something different. You people are never happy".

Does it make you feel better to be so dismissive you can't even engage in the discussion?



... unless maybe there really is something to charisma as casting stat. People have argued in this thread that intelligence is a good stat with useful skills, but the game doesn't play that way - intelligence is a dump stat; sometimes even for 1/3 casters that use it as a casting stat.

Problem with the stat, not either class. Stop trying to change the discussion into something it's not.


Oh, and proficiency with con saves - sure, a wizards can just get that with a feat, but if a feat is in the comparison a sorcerer can just pick up ritual caster. Of course, if you're using the rules for copying spells into a spellbook dumped int and no proficiency in arcana might make that bad; and of course, you're back to carrying a book around like a wizNerd.

If I ignore the rest of what you're spewing, you bring up an...ok point. Con save is significantly valued on these forums. So much so that res:con is said to be a must-have feat.

But you know what? I've never actually taken it. Never had a player take it. What, exactly, is your wizard doing that they trigger all these concentration saves? Where is your Shield and Absorb Elements? Isn't the wizard supposed to be prepared for everything? Didn't you put anything into constitution?

Losing concentration on a spell (which, to be clear, is the only reason the casters need the feat) isn't such a big deal. You 'waste' spell slots simply by playing. You cast a concentration spell and the next round the barbarian nuked your target. You cast a spell that lasts an hour but the combat is over next round and the DM doesn't immediately bounce you into a new fight.

Adding two or three to your roll (the useful value of the feat for the vast majority of games) is useful... But it's an entirely passive roll, that you actually have some control over by avoiding damage, reducing it, and having allies that support you (bardic inspiration, paladin, artificer, various buff spells such as bless, Inspiration, portent dice, Halfling Luck, the Luck feat, cover)... Taking con proficiency isn't your only option here, and it's honestly the most boring one.


If the wizard list is part of the balance; sorcerers get charisma casting with the (most of the) wizard list, and no pesky spellbook to lose, read, or add things to. Less bookkeeping, too.

But, if you want versatility, Warlock, Bard, and Wizard are right there in the PHB. You could say the same for someone who thinks the Champion is boring - Battlemaster is right there.

It isn't even remotely as bad as the PHB Ranger.

Charisma casting isn't superior. Nor is it inferior. Your Shield cast with Intelligence is the same as my Shield cast with Charisma. Charisma casting also isn't the reason wizards have a spellbook and sorcerers dont; the class is the reason. Incidentally, I haven't seen a wizard lose a spellbook since 2nd edition, more than 20 years ago. How many times has it happened to you?

I do enjoy warlocks, actually, and they're currently my most-played class (soon to be overtaken by artificer, I just don't get as many chances to play). And warlock is wonderfully versatile. It shares a similar design space and chassis to the bard (another versatile class) and like the bard can build a niche into nearly any class.

But that is not the discussion. The discussion is the sorcerer, and how despite its appeal it fails in delivering the flavour of Magic Incarnate. Wizard gets that instead, with ritual casting (something that doesn't fit the lore of sorcerers at all) and spell mastery (turn any first or second level spell into a cantrip). These are both resources less ways to be the uber-caster, and sorcerer has nothing to compare. The closest is sorcery points, which can be strong if you make the right choices and take care with your build. But even the maxing of spell slots (which largely eliminates the ability to use metamagic) doesn't compare to unlimited casting.

This thread is about the best way to improve that flavour for the sorcerer. You are here, instead, waving about a sign saying "All Classes Matter" and "Think About The Poor Bard" instead of helping with the topic at hand.

If you think the sorcerer needs no fix, then this thread is not for you. You started here saying that OP's proposed houserule doesn't work. And to be fair, a lot of people including me seem to share that feeling. And since we're the ones with problems, we can't expect you to come up with ways to fix things. That's not your job. That is the job of the people who have issue with the sorcerer. Please stand back and let us do our thing.

[cutlery]

Charisma casting isn't superior. Nor is it inferior.

Charisma activates more useful skills and offers more multiclassing options than intelligence. A charisma caster is far better suited to filling the party face role than an intelligence caster - and that's nice.

Of course if you are going to argue things like proficiency in con saves isn't a big deal, I suppose next you'll argue that party face skills aren't useful. Okay, I'll then counter with ritual casting isn't that big a deal, and you only need 5-7 spells known or so to be effective.

Sorcerers can already cast more spells per long rest than wizards and generally have stronger subclass features. The chief difference is spells known and prepared. You are suggesting giving sorcerers a flat boost to either spells known or spells cast per day (or both), rather than curtailing the power of wizards, and to justify this you are refusing to consider the other classes, against which a sorcerer is balanced rather well.

It seems to me that it is because you want sorcerers to be essentially what wizards are in 5e; in which case I don't see why you don't just play a wizard and flavor it as a sorcerer, or play the sorcerer as is. It isn't a personal failing, and it is an already balanced caster class that has all the things you want - more spells, some spell slot recovery (though not as much as a sorcerer if they wish), and if charisma doesn't matter, then having int as a caster stat shouldn't matter.

A clever player will do clever things, no matter what class or multiclass they are playing; particularly in Tiers 1-2 and early Tier3.

I have played sorcerers and would happily play one again. They are not weak, and I've never felt that being in a party with a wizard made my sorcerer weaker.

[Mjolnirbear]

Charisma activates more useful skills and offers more multiclassing options than intelligence. A charisma caster is far better suited to filling the party face role than an intelligence caster - and that's nice.

Are you just deliberately ignoring me? Because, once again, party roles are not the issue. That is a Playstyle and role-playing choice. Charisma makes being the face easier, like intelligence makes being the sage slightly easier. Neither are relevant to a discussion about sorcerer abilities not feeling like Magic Incarnate.


Of course if you are going to argue things like proficiency in con saves isn't a big deal, I suppose next you'll argue that party face skills aren't useful. Okay, I'll then counter with ritual casting isn't that big a deal, and you only need 5-7 spells known or so to be effective.

I gave reasons why CON proficiency is in my eyes less of a big deal, directly comparing it to the common reasons why people like it, and also allowing several non-feat options for boosting your changes to avoid or succeed at a concentration save.

You? All you've done is say "But look at ritual casting". You didn't actually engage with any of my points.

But hey, if you only need 7 spells known to be effective, why does the wizard have 40 at level 20? Let's nerf the wizard.


Sorcerers can already cast more spells per long rest than wizards and generally have stronger subclass features. The chief difference is spells known and prepared. You are suggesting giving sorcerers a flat boost to either spells known or spells cast per day (or both), rather than curtailing the power of wizards, and to justify this you are refusing to consider the other classes, against which a sorcerer is balanced rather well.

At level 1, a wizard can cast Detect Magic all day long. At ten minute à cast and ten minutes duration, that's three times per hour, or 72 times per day if the wizard doesn't care to take a break.

He can do that with *any* ritual spell. There is *nothing* the sorcerer can do that even comes close to 72 free spells per day.

At level 18, he can do that with magic missile. Except now it's 10 times per minute, 600 times per hour...

I'm not advocating sorcerers get ritual magic. I actually pointed out TWICE NOW that it doesn't fit the lore. I'm also not advocating they get Spell Mastery, both because SM is uselessly high-level for most games and because it serves no purpose.

I'm giving them as examples of things the wizard can do, and I would like to build a lore-friendly way for sorcerers to get something *that feels like sorcerers are actually magical*.

Your wizard can do that all day long IN ADDITION TO all its other class features. Compared to the sorcerer with your I-Cant-Believe-You-Said-That-With-A-Straight-Face protest that sorcerers get more spells per day because sorcery points WHICH ONLY GET THAT IF THEY SACRIFICE THEIR OTHER PRIMARY FEATURE.

LET ME PUT IN MORE ALL-CAPS SO MAYBE YOU PAY ATTENTION. I WANT THE SORCERER TO FEEL MAGICAL. I DON'T WANT TO PLAY A WIZARD, I WANT À SORCERER THAT FEELS MAGICAL. I DON'T WANT IT TO FEEL LIKE A WIZARD.

FEELS MAGICAL.


It seems to me that it is because you want sorcerers to be essentially what wizards are in 5e; in which case I don't see why you don't just play a wizard and flavor it as a sorcerer, or play the sorcerer as is. It isn't a personal failing, and it is an already balanced caster class that has all the things you want - more spells, some spell slot recovery (though not as much as a sorcerer if they wish), and if charisma doesn't matter, then having int as a caster stat shouldn't matter.

Yeah good for you for telling me how I feel and telling me how I want. So glad you're fricken' god with a direct window into my brain so you can see all my thoughts and tell me what I'm really feeling like a good patronizing pat on the head.

But you think sorcerers should have INT as a caster stat? I don't actually care. It could be Strength for all I care. IT'S NOT ACTUALLY RELEVANT BECAUSE CHARISMA DOESN'T MAKE YOU FEEL MORE MAGICAL. WHICH IS ALL I WANT. WE'RE HERE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THAT WITHOUT COPYING WIZARDS. WIZARDS ARE SIMPLY THE EASIEST WAY TO JUDGE BALANCE SINCE THEY ARE VERY SIMILAR.

[cutlery]

WIZARDS ARE SIMPLY THE EASIEST WAY TO JUDGE BALANCE SINCE THEY ARE VERY SIMILAR.

Caps don't make this true. There are 12 classes in the PHB; four of which have heavily overlapping spell lists. Any discussion of class mechanics needs to happen relative to the other 11, and needs to take an accounting of the things one class can do more easily than another; saves and which skills are keyed off of their main casting stat are a big part of this, as are which multiclass options are easiest.




Magic Incarnate.


What would do that, without making sorcerers fantastically overpowered relative to the other 10 classes in the PHB?

Because short rest sorcery point recovery would very much do that; and make them beat both wizards and warlocks at both ends of the caster endurance game, save for the situation where endurance is measured solely by 5th level spells cast per SR in the case of the Warlock.

What does "magic incarnate" even mean, mechanically? Bigger spells? More spells? More powerful spells? Larger area effect zones isn't a thing anymore, but they can already do the other two.


FWIW, "magic incarnate" isn't how sorcerers are described in the PHB - chaotic powers they can sort of control but that can't be taught is how they are described. They aren't said to be any more powerful than some other magic wielder as per the fluff text.

It does, however, point out their lack of breadth in spells known specifically.

So; what would you give them in keeping with that description that doesn't wreck their balance with the 10 other classes in the PHB aside from the wizard?

[Asisreo1]

At level 1, a wizard can cast Detect Magic all day long. At ten minute à cast and ten minutes duration, that's three times per hour, or 72 times per day if the wizard doesn't care to take a break.

He can do that with *any* ritual spell. There is *nothing* the sorcerer can do that even comes close to 72 free spells per day.

Is "detect magic" really that impressive? Rituals in-general kinda suck as spells of any nature besides rituals. You'd rarely ever cast detect magic with a spell slot.

Essentially, they're a cantrip. Speaking of those, a sorcerer can cast cantrips an unlimited number of times, including minor illusion and prestidigation.

Rituals are just opt-in cantrips, honestly. It isn't that impressive to detect magic or anything.


At level 18, he can do that with magic missile. Except now it's 10 times per minute, 600 times per hour...

I'm not advocating sorcerers get ritual magic. I actually pointed out TWICE NOW that it doesn't fit the lore. I'm also not advocating they get Spell Mastery, both because SM is uselessly high-level for most games and because it serves no purpose.

I'm giving them as examples of things the wizard can do, and I would like to build a lore-friendly way for sorcerers to get something *that feels like sorcerers are actually magical*.

Your wizard can do that all day long IN ADDITION TO all its other class features. Compared to the sorcerer with your I-Cant-Believe-You-Said-That-With-A-Straight-Face protest that sorcerers get more spells per day because sorcery points WHICH ONLY GET THAT IF THEY SACRIFICE THEIR OTHER PRIMARY FEATURE.

LET ME PUT IN MORE ALL-CAPS SO MAYBE YOU PAY ATTENTION. I WANT THE SORCERER TO FEEL MAGICAL. I DON'T WANT TO PLAY A WIZARD, I WANT À SORCERER THAT FEELS MAGICAL. I DON'T WANT IT TO FEEL LIKE A WIZARD.

FEELS MAGICAL.

No need to get so aggressive with the caps-lock. We're talking about 18th level here, cannibalizing a few 5th-level spell slots for first or second slots won't be so horrible. The wizard gets spell mastery but only for one 1st and one 2nd level spell for the long rest. The sorcerer gets to use their extra 10 slots from cannibalization on any spells they know at that level. And it doesn't actually remove any spell points to do it.





Yeah good for you for telling me how I feel and telling me how I want. So glad you're fricken' god with a direct window into my brain so you can see all my thoughts and tell me what I'm really feeling like a good patronizing pat on the head.

But you think sorcerers should have INT as a caster stat? I don't actually care. It could be Strength for all I care. IT'S NOT ACTUALLY RELEVANT BECAUSE CHARISMA DOESN'T MAKE YOU FEEL MORE MAGICAL. WHICH IS ALL I WANT. WE'RE HERE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THAT WITHOUT COPYING WIZARDS. WIZARDS ARE SIMPLY THE EASIEST WAY TO JUDGE BALANCE SINCE THEY ARE VERY SIMILAR.
Again, no need to yell. Being a caster that can fully cast spells while manipulating how and with what they can cast with much more flexibility than other casters is plenty magical in my eyes. Sorcerers have felt more magical to me than wizards from the beginning. Wizards have few flaws but they also have few strengths.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Caps don't make this true. There are 12 classes in the PHB; four of which have heavily overlapping spell lists. Any discussion of class mechanics needs to happen relative to the other 11, and needs to take an accounting of the things one class can do more easily than another; saves and which skills are keyed off of their main casting stat are a big part of this, as are which multiclass options are easiest.




What would do that, without making sorcerers fantastically overpowered relative to the other 10 classes in the PHB?

Because short rest sorcery point recovery would very much do that; and make them beat both wizards and warlocks at both ends of the caster endurance game, save for the situation where endurance is measured solely by 5th level spells cast per SR in the case of the Warlock.

What does "magic incarnate" even mean, mechanically? Bigger spells? More spells? More powerful spells? Larger area effect zones isn't a thing anymore, but they can already do the other two.


FWIW, "magic incarnate" isn't how sorcerers are described in the PHB - chaotic powers they can sort of control but that can't be taught is how they are described. They aren't said to be any more powerful than some other magic wielder as per the fluff text.

It does, however, point out their lack of breadth in spells known specifically.

So; what would you give them in keeping with that description that doesn't wreck their balance with the 10 other classes in the PHB aside from the wizard?

What I'm giving Sorcerers is another metamagic at 6th level, but it has to be one of the 'tier 2' ones, so no Empower, Quicken, Twin, or Subtle. I think that will give a bit more versatility and get some use out of some of the metamagics that get largely ignored. I'm hoping that will also make a wider variety of the spells the Sorc does get useful in some situations and get them to choose a broader variety of spells. Depending how it goes I might give another metamagic further on.
But I come from a place where I don't see Sorcerers as out of balance with most classes. Some of the Sorcerer sub-classes are, but that's another issue and not only a Sorcerer problem.

[cutlery]

What I'm giving Sorcerers is another metamagic at 6th level, but it has to be one of the 'tier 2' ones, so no Empower, Quicken, Twin, or Subtle. I think that will give a bit more versatility and get some use out of some of the metamagics that get largely ignored. I'm hoping that will also make a wider variety of the spells the Sorc does get useful in some situations and get them to choose a broader variety of spells. Depending how it goes I might give another metamagic further on.
But I come from a place where I don't see Sorcerers as out of balance with most classes. Some of the Sorcerer sub-classes are, but that's another issue and not only a Sorcerer problem.

Yeah, more metamagic makes sense. I don't think there are enough core metamagics available, but sorcerers having effectively double the number they currently have completely makes sense; that would give them all of them at 17th, which says to me there need to be more metamagic choices (there are three cool ones in the class feature variants options UA, at least, as well as some new ways to use SPs).

They should also be able to change elemental types (as they could in 3e, via metamagic). This should be part of font/baseline, I think, rather than cost them. Not having lots of int (so weaker arcana checks) should prevent this from being terribly abused, as they won't just know who is resistant to what. Leave force and radiant off the list of available damage types to change a spell to if it is free. This might make elemental adept pretty strong, but it does take a feat. I'm not sure if necrotic damage should be able to be changed; of course both sorcs and wizards get access to horrid wilting and meteor swarm both, so it might not break anything. Actually, if you have elemental adept (fire) you might never even take horrid wilting as a sorcerer, as a fireball cast at 8th is better.


It would be nice if using sorcery points upleveled a spell like in 3e, but that might be too broken with how upcasting works in 5e (it was in 3e). Empower works pretty well though, if klunky at the table.

[Edea]

What if you doubled the sorcery points and doubled the cost to convert them to spells but kept the metamagic costs the same?

Won't really help, unfortunately. Spell slot conversion is just too powerful compared to using metamagic; you're going to use as many sorcery points as possible to keep up with the wizard create additional slots, so you're still going to end up with next-to-zero sorcery points left over with that variant in place. In fact that'll make things worse, since converting a slot back into points would be done at a steep disadvantage.

I think the class needs a complete overhaul. It's just a vastly inferior wizard in its current form (hey, just like 3.5! Deja-flippin-vu, I thought this was an updated edition); it needs its own identity.

[cutlery]

I think the class needs a complete overhaul. It's just a vastly inferior wizard in its current form (hey, just like 3.5! Deja-flippin-vu, I thought this was an updated edition); it needs its own identity.

If you followed the prepared spells rules properly, a wizard could very easily be caught with a useless complement of spells. It wasn't just a set of readied spells, but each spell slot had to have a spell loaded into it; that could be really rough depending on how varied an adventuring day might be.

Sorcerers felt great in 3/3.5 for that reason. Sure, you knew fewer spells, but you had all of them all of the time and could use your slots pretty much how you like. This is even better now because you can cannibalize slots.

I think 5e wizards should still work that way, but I suspect few people would play them if that were the case.

[Mjolnirbear]

Caps don't make this true. There are 12 classes in the PHB; four of which have heavily overlapping spell lists. Any discussion of class mechanics needs to happen relative to the other 11, and needs to take an accounting of the things one class can do more easily than another; saves and which skills are keyed off of their main casting stat are a big part of this, as are which multiclass options are easiest.

Why would you compare a wizard to a thief? There is no basis for comparison. You have to try to balance sneak attacks and bonus action hide and armour and weapon proficiencies and evasion and all the other rogue things vs ritual casting and cantrips and the spellcasting feature and spell mastery and arcane recovery and a d6 hit die and the Shield spell.

It is not useful to compare them, especially as looking at the rogue doesn't give me ideas on how to build a better wizard.

I have said this before. When you make a comparison, you need something to compare. It's easiest to compare to the most similar class. Wizard is not the same as sorcerer (which I've said before) but it's chassis, the basis of the class, is extremely similar. Why would I compare a sorcerer to a fighter with no similar features at all, instead of a wizard, who has far more features in common with the sorcerer?

I'm not rebalancing all of 5th edition. I'm not even concerned about power. I want the sorcerer to feel more magical. I don't care what it looks like as long as it's not looking like the wizard, but looking like a sorcerer.

If you want to compare a sorcerer to a bard, by all means do so. That is not what I'm doing here. You made the point, now do the work yourself.

I've responded to and addressed your points about Charisma casting and con proficiency. You may not like my answers but I've at least provided points, rebuttals, and direct engagement.



What would do that, without making sorcerers fantastically overpowered relative to the other 10 classes in the PHB?

I don't know. That's why we are here. Well , at least why I am. You're here to tell others how they feel and what they think and that we're wrong, apparently.


Because short rest sorcery point recovery would very much do that; and make them beat both wizards and warlocks at both ends of the caster endurance game, save for the situation where endurance is measured solely by 5th level spells cast per SR in the case of the Warlock.

Hey, look at that, you're actually addressing a point I made!

Now let me rebut. Short rest recovery can be unbalanced. I agree. But what I offered was a look into my games as a starting point for a discussion. I don't math very well. But let's start with that. Let's assume a level 10 sorcerer. With my proposed mechanic, they get 5 SP on a short rest. So they can make, assuming two short rests, three more Fireballs than a wizard per day.

I mean, it's flashy. It's strong. Does it break the game? I'm not sure. But Fireball is expressly more powerful than other 3rd-level spells, by design. So how about Fly? Does three more Fly spells break the game? Three more Hypnotic Patterns?

On top of that, to do this, they're giving up any metamagic, unless they cannibalise spell slots. Which, to be sure, we can. But to do so, they sacrifice their spell slots, their most precious resource. The thing that is so important, it is the basis for your entire argument (even though wizards can cast Leomund's Tiny Hut non-stop all day long). Is any metamagic actually worth sacrificing a spell slot? Would I rather cast Suggestion, or quicken a firebolt? How about you? Which would you prefer? I mean, I could quicken a Suggestion, but then I'm either casting a cantrip, or I'm doing something else vitally important for my action. In my opinion if the action is so vitally important I must sacrifice casting something, then it is pretty dire indeed, because spells are how casters I gage in all realms of play and there's very few times I need to do something a spell cannot help with. So most of the time, I'd rather have the spell slot than cannibalise it for a quickened or twinned firebolt.

So it's a balancing act. What is more fun? More Fireballs? Or using metamagic? Can we encourage one or the other? Again, I offered a potential answer that we divorce or eliminate flexible magic from metamagic. I don't know that it's necessary. It might be. I'm here to discuss that. Can you explain, using examples, why that would be an issue?


So; what would you give them in keeping with that description that doesn't wreck their balance with the 10 other classes in the PHB aside from the wizard?

I don't actually think my proposed change does affect the balance. Do you have evidence to the contrary?


Is "detect magic" really that impressive? Rituals in-general kinda suck as spells of any nature besides rituals. You'd rarely ever cast detect magic with a spell slot.

It is not. It is, indeed, very like a cantrip. Rituals are not particularly powerful, but they are very useful. What casting Detect Magic all day long shows is that there's design room to be flexible even with infinite spells. Which was my point. If we can do it with rituals, how else might we do it?

Sorcerers have more cantrips. And as I said before, my primary joy in playing a caster is to feel magical. Magic princess cantrips help that immensely. But cantrips still have less utility than rituals while occupying similar design space. So I think there is room for improvement. Which is why I'm here, to search for that elusive space.




No need to get so aggressive with the caps-lock. We're talking about 18th level here, cannibalizing a few 5th-level spell slots for first or second slots won't be so horrible. The wizard gets spell mastery but only for one 1st and one 2nd level spell for the long rest. The sorcerer gets to use their extra 10 slots from cannibalization on any spells they know at that level. And it doesn't actually remove any spell points to do it.


I fail to understand your point. If a sorcerer has to cannibilise their spell slots to make more spell slots, they're not actually gaining more spell slots. The feature was deliberately built to have diminishing returns. They are paying for this ability, at the cost of other abilities. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point. Would you care to rephrase?



Again, no need to yell. Being a caster that can fully cast spells while manipulating how and with what they can cast with much more flexibility than other casters is plenty magical in my eyes. Sorcerers have felt more magical to me than wizards from the beginning. Wizards have few flaws but they also have few strengths.

It took yelling to get him engaged instead of dismissive and patronizing. So yes, apparently it was. Can you honestly say you enjoy people patronizing you and telling you "what you really think is..."?

I believe we have to agree to disagree on whether sorcerers feel magical enough. Debating that point helps neither of us.

However, as a benchmark, neither increasing the metamagic gained nor adding spells known (a la domain spells) would manifestly increase a sorcerer's power. Options, yes... But not power. It is this design space I am trying to work in. I don't care if I go over a bit, because as must seem obvious, I feel there's room to work here. But I'm not actually aiming for "more powerful".

[Kane0]

Maybe not recover all SP on a short rest, but definitely a portion, like Cha bonus or prof bonus.

Pair that up with extra metamagic or spell availability and that could be a quick and dirty fix.

[Edea]

Maybe not recover all SP on a short rest, but definitely a portion, like Cha bonus or prof bonus.

Pair that up with extra metamagic or spell availability and that could be a quick and dirty fix.

Proficiency bonus is my favorite.

Also not sure if spending a hit die is needed or not, and whether or not that should only be doable a certain number of short rests per day or at the end of any short rest.

[Kane0]

Proficiency bonus is my favorite.

Also not sure if spending a hit die is needed or not, and whether or not that should only be doable a certain number of short rests per day or at the end of any short rest.

Given that as a stock sorc you could burn all your SP just ti keep up with Arcane Recovery I wouldnt worry about it too much, though burning hit die is a decent counterbalance for additional metamagic/spells known for those that dont want to straight power creep the sorc.

[cutlery]

However, as a benchmark, neither increasing the metamagic gained nor adding spells known (a la domain spells) would manifestly increase a sorcerer's power. Options, yes... But not power. It is this design space I am trying to work in. I don't care if I go over a bit, because as must seem obvious, I feel there's room to work here. But I'm not actually aiming for "more powerful".

Sorcerers can already cast spells more powerful than wizards. They lack in variety of spells known. When people talk about the strength of a wizard, it is in their versatility, now how hard their spells hit, how high their save DCs are, or how many spells they can throw in a day (which is still behind that of a sorcerer).

If giving sorcerers more spells known gives them more versatility, it would increase their power; and make them markedly more versatile than bards or warlocks.

You still haven't meaningfully answered the question, so I'll restate it:

If you don't care about the charisma stat, multiclassing, or con saves, what about the sorcerer do you prefer over the wizard? Because it still sounds like you'd prefer wizard versatility with sorcerer fluff text - and you can already do that. The word "wizard" might be on a character sheet somewhere, but that's just a reference to a set of mechanics.




Why would you compare a wizard to a thief? There is no basis for comparison.


Rogue.

And, the basis for comparison is that they are both player classes in the PHB, and you don't need to bring any specific party composition to do anything in this game. Talking about increasing the options available to one class solely because you think it falls down relative to one other class does more damage to relative class balance than it fixes it. Especially when (1) that comparison class is generally considered to be overpowered relative to all other classes, and (2) one of the chief differentiators between the sorcerer and wizard is the very thing you want to add to the sorcerer.

If one class outclasses the others, the sensible thing to do is the constrain that class, not start adding things to other classes one at a time. And wizards are very easy to curb as a DM by controlling what spells actually exist in your game.



I have said this before. When you make a comparison, you need something to compare.


There are 12 classes; 6 of them full casters, 3 of those with lists that heavily overlap with the sorcerer list. Considering all of them makes a lot more sense. Otherwise it is quite easy to add enough to the sorcerer that other classes would never get used. Refusing to consider how a change might make a sorcerer overpowered relative to the casting niche of the warlock or bard wouldn't really help. Focusing only on two classes is myopic, and a change based on a comparison made solely between those two classes will have unintended effects with how other classes stack up.

If the wizard is too strong, make it weaker; hell, remove the class entirely from your game - that's a better choice than added power and versatility to the sorcerer.

If the wizard fluff isn't to your taste, fluff it differently.

[Kane0]

If the wizard fluff isn't to your taste, fluff it differently.

It’s a bit of a faux pas to refluff the flavor of one class to that which already exists in another.

[Asisreo1]

It is not. It is, indeed, very like a cantrip. Rituals are not particularly powerful, but they are very useful. What casting Detect Magic all day long shows is that there's design room to be flexible even with infinite spells. Which was my point. If we can do it with rituals, how else might we do it?

Sorcerers have more cantrips. And as I said before, my primary joy in playing a caster is to feel magical. Magic princess cantrips help that immensely. But cantrips still have less utility than rituals while occupying similar design space. So I think there is room for improvement. Which is why I'm here, to search for that elusive space.

Honestly, I think it's the opposite. These "Magic Princess Cantrips" might not have rules as specific as most rituals, but their usefulness far exceeds any one of them.

Take Detect Magic versus Prestidigation. Sure, you might find detect magic useful sometimes, but if there is no detectable magic in the area, or if the magic you detect was already obvious, the spell has basically lost its usefulness. Prestidigation has many more applications. It can be used as a form of communication, a means to create light, a way to adjust objects that need to be cleaned, a flavor usage (literally), and a means to temporarily create small illusions or real and tangible trinkets like knives, crystal doorknobs, and masks. Prestidigation has a more diverse set of uses that Detect Magic can barely effect. And that's just with that. Cantrips like Minor Illusion, Message, Mending, and Mage Hand (Or MMMM....for short) all have incredibly diverse and versatile uses that rituals fail to replicate. Made worse by the fact that these rituals take their normal casting time +10 to cast.







I fail to understand your point. If a sorcerer has to cannibilise their spell slots to make more spell slots, they're not actually gaining more spell slots. The feature was deliberately built to have diminishing returns. They are paying for this ability, at the cost of other abilities. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point. Would you care to rephrase?

It depends on what you mean by "more spell slots." Let's take a 9th level wizard v sorcerer for example. A 9th level wizard can cast 14 leveled spells (that aren't rituals) in a day, same as the sorcerer but with a different structure. But let's say the wizard/sorcerer has had to cast low level spells repeatedly. They've cast 1 3rd-level spell but has found no more need to do so over the adventuring day.

For example, let's say they've casted Mage Armor, Magic Missile, and shield twice over their day and have produced a fireball. The wizard and sorcerer gets dragged into combat, but first the sorcerer has converted 2 third-level slots into 3 first-level slots. At some point in the adventuring day thereafter, they had to cast shield an additional 4 times. The wizard must cast shield using all of their 2nd level slots and one with their third, assuming they weren't casting any of those in-between, which they likely were. The sorcerer spends the 3 new 1st-level slots and a second. While the sorcerer and wizard did the same thing, the wizard took 4 spell slots to do it. The sorcerer took 3. The quantity of spells casted by the sorcerer is increased in this case. I don't recommend this, though.

The real benefit is being able to convert lower level spell slots that aren't going to see as much frequent use as higher ones. Take the same example, the wizard must wait for a short rest to obtain their 2nd 5th-level spell. The sorcerer can use their 2nd and 3rd level spell slots to give them a boost. If they use them all, the sorcerer can cast 3 5th-level spells, more than a wizard.

Again, the whole point is that you probably won't need those other spell slots as much as you need your second and third 5th-level spell slot.

You need to be able to carefully think about how you want to apply this versatility, though. The great part about it is that it isn't a necessity to be used in either way until it is. You aren't forced to use the feature but it's always there and ready to be used. You don't need to use all your spell points on metamagic, either. It can be a mix. You can do stuff like convert the 7 points to a 5th-level slot then drain your 2nd-level slots so that you have 8 points available, an extra 5th-level slot, and plenty of other spell slots you can use or convert as you see fit.

[micahaphone]

As a general psa not directed at anyone, some banned user sometimes makes sockpuppet accounts to be quite rude whenever the topic of the sorcerer's power comes up. Try not to argue too much with any account that's very new.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Just had a thought, would this be too bonkers?

Sorcery Points refresh on a Short Rest.

They can only be converted into Spell Slots once per Long Rest.

Sorcerers get 2 metamagic whenever they currently get 1.

Alternative question: what measures would be necessary to balance Sorcery Points refreshing on a Short Rest?

I do think this is too strong but fun. My personal changes.


Sorcerers use the spell points variant rule. (removes having 5th level slots at 7th level.)
Sorcery points are added to that pool
Sorcerers get 2 additional spells known at the cost of 1 cantrip.

I've considered adding in a sorcerous recovery where they regain SP=1/2 sorcerer level 1/day at the end of a short rest.

Between these changes I think it brings the Sorc to a very solid place. This is also the only class I allow SP variant on. (so far.)

[loki_ragnarock]

Proficiency bonus is my favorite.



Proficiency promotes dipping the same way it would for hexblades; it doesn't make things better for sorcerers, it makes it better for all the other full casters to take 3 level dips.

Making it 1/3 sorcery points per short rest is a little bulkier - but as a derived value from a class specific boon it's less elegant than saying "use this thing we all know" - but it rewards sorcerers for being sorcerers and doesn't overcompensate moonlighters while tracking closely enough with proficiency. Trailing just enough to keep things sane in the early levels (a bonus spell slot every two short rests instead of every short rest keeps things relatively sane during 3-6) but catching up in the back half of progression where things are generally unmanageable, anyway.
Less elegant, but more practical.

Gotta learn from the mistakes of the past with Hexblade design or be doomed to repeat them. Just doing proficiency means 9th level spells and 13 charisma for all the bards, druids, clerics, and wizards that would like to quicken and still a spell every short rest; too much a boon for the moonlighters.

[Edea]

Proficiency promotes dipping the same way it would for hexblades; it doesn't make things better for sorcerers, it makes it better for all the other full casters to take 3 level dips.

That's more a problem with how multiclassing works, which is also in need of a complete overhaul as it's already borked.

[loki_ragnarock]

That's more a problem with how multiclassing works, which is also in need of a complete overhaul as it's already borked.

Modestly. It mostly comes into conflict when a powerful class defining feature comes in early. You want things to come in early because they are class defining. So fighters should absolutely get action surge at level 2. But wizards pulling a dip then get access to action surge and 9th level spells. Rut-Roh.
I suspect they recognized that and that's why multi-classing is an optional rule. Allows a dusting of hands and a "not my problem" from the designers.

Even so, if a quick tweak makes it compatible with that widely considered optional rule, then you get the best of both worlds? I had a point, but I forgot while watching a dragon con panel.
Something, something, accommodating the most potential outcomes with the least effort, something something.

[Nhorianscum]

That's more a problem with how multiclassing works, which is also in need of a complete overhaul as it's already borked.

Sorc does abuse multi-classing harder than any other base in the game by a ludicrously oversized margin.

---------

On topic: Metamagic Adept is a feat tax on sorc at any table that allows UA. It's a very toned down version of most proposed changes to the class and it still just... is really not ok.

[cutlery]

On topic: Metamagic Adept is a feat tax on sorc at any table that allows UA. It's a very toned down version of most proposed changes to the class and it still just... is really not ok.

I don't know - it is only two points (and two that can't be used for font of magic).

If there was a particular metamagic you didn't have that you were dying to have, maybe, but I've struggled to have more than three or four I feel like I need. The additional metamagics in the class feature variants UA change things a bit. The additional ways to use sorcery points (empowering reserves, imbuing touch, sorcerous fortitude) look more attractive to me, though.

Now, if you are only planning on taking ~9-11 levels of sorcerer, that's different, and the feat might be more handy, but I am of the opinion that the sorcerer doesn't need to be made any more attractive as a multiclass option; it excels there already.

[micahaphone]

I don't know - it is only two points (and two that can't be used for font of magic).

If there was a particular metamagic you didn't have that you were dying to have, maybe, but I've struggled to have more than three or four I feel like I need. The additional metamagics in the class feature variants UA change things a bit. The additional ways to use sorcery points (empowering reserves, imbuing touch, sorcerous fortitude) look more attractive to me, though.

Now, if you are only planning on taking ~9-11 levels of sorcerer, that's different, and the feat might be more handy, but I am of the opinion that the sorcerer doesn't need to be made any more attractive as a multiclass option; it excels there already.

Do you usually play much beyond level 10?

I usually have 3-4 metamagics I want, and when I'm a player the campaign rarely even reaches level 10 let alone going past there. I spend the majority of my time in levels 4-10 it feels like. I also use more of my SP for metamagic than slot conversion - even if slot conversion is the mechanically optimal choice, I like feeling like a sorcerer. So for me, this feat is an amazing patch to the class, although I agree it's a feat tax which hurts. Now another class that really excels as Vhuman!

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Won't really help, unfortunately. Spell slot conversion is just too powerful compared to using metamagic; you're going to use as many sorcery points as possible to keep up with the wizard create additional slots, so you're still going to end up with next-to-zero sorcery points left over with that variant in place. In fact that'll make things worse, since converting a slot back into points would be done at a steep disadvantage.

I think the class needs a complete overhaul. It's just a vastly inferior wizard in its current form (hey, just like 3.5! Deja-flippin-vu, I thought this was an updated edition); it needs its own identity.

Interesting. I have found the exact opposite; spell slot conversion is really expensive and inefficient and I only tend to do it near the end of an adventuring day if there is a spell I really need. Metamagic does what it's intended to do often at a reasonable cost; for example I can Quicken 1 fireball and Empower 3 for the same cost as casting one extra, which would cost me 2 second level spells and 1 first. The loss of a potential Shield spell by itself is a pretty big cost since it could save my bacon, to say nothing of the 2nd level slots.
I try to manage my resources to run out of both spells and metamagic at the same time.

[Asisreo1]

Interesting. I have found the exact opposite; spell slot conversion is really expensive and inefficient and I only tend to do it near the end of an adventuring day if there is a spell I really need. Metamagic does what it's intended to do often at a reasonable cost; for example I can Quicken 1 fireball and Empower 3 for the same cost as casting one extra, which would cost me 2 second level spells and 1 first. The loss of a potential Shield spell by itself is a pretty big cost since it could save my bacon, to say nothing of the 2nd level slots.
I try to manage my resources to run out of both spells and metamagic at the same time.
That was a bit inefficient, though. You probably didn't do nearly as much damage per spell point as you could have by just converting it into an extra fireball, to say nothing about having an extra 3rd-level slot that could be used for fly, counterspell, haste, or hypnotic pattern.

I realize that many people take quicken and twin as their first metamagics and it truly explains exactly how they manage to think spell points are so expensive. Especially with stories like twin polymorph or haste.

Twin should be taken at level 10 at the minimum. You don't have the slots to keep up otherwise. Quicken should be used as an absolute emergency button. A cantrip worth of damage is nowhere near worth a first level spell, you should use it if you plan on dodging or dashing or hiding, otherwise you should be have the 1 SP metamagics. Even if they aren't as cool and flashy as the two aforementioned, they do have some good uses to them.

[Mutsuhat]

I think that getting all the sorcery point on a rest is to much and not what is trully lacking in the sorcerer, for me at least.
As i agree that that the sorcerer is undertuned .And It certainly can be as strong as the other class when you optimised the **** out of it. But if you don't, you will be left behind.

My biggest gripe with the class is the "thematic":

When i think of the sorcerer i think of a element, a plane, a type of creature a environnement. Something that give my character power. Unfortunately a lot of time it's just not possible to learn the most thematic spells, either because they are not in the list, or because you can't with the 15 spells limitation (that also mean that most of time spell like fireball are off the list because they are not in the theme, same for counterspell, polymorph , haste etc not all sorcerer can or will take those amazing spell, unlike the wizard).
Furthermore this did not allow for the fact that you have to take into consideration how your spells works with your metamagic, wich restrict the choice even more.

Of course you can ignore all of that, but what's the point of a storm sorcerer that does not use stormy spells? And what's the point of a sorcerer that can't use the metamagic because they either doesn't work with their thematics spells or because they are not as usefull as what they seems(because when you take 2 metamagic you will obviously want to take the one that correspond to your character, but also the one that your are going to actually use, because it's the reason your spell are so limited to begin with).

Now to be fair i do exagerate a bit, after all you can totally ignore all of that and go with the optimal road, wich makes the sorcerer quite strong (twinned haste , subtle counterspell, carefull hypnotic pattern and the 4 other option that no one can do and that i am certain exist).But it's not something that should be taken for granted or even the most taken path, the sorcerer should not be balanced around the maximazer in my opinion.

By the way the sorcerer having con save is great, but that just mean that they will need to pick wisdom save to not kill their team, so not really a big point for them (as a primary save, better than dex save for sure tho). Also unlike bard and warlock they have nothing but their spell, so they better be the best at casting them, wich they are not (they are good, but the price is way to high and not good enough).

Personnaly the rules that we are using for our sorcerer in our games are those, and honestly i have much more fun with those, as a player and as a dm :

-Metamagic known = charisma mod (so 3 to 5)

-The level 10 is a new subclass feature (for example my sea sorcerer will be able to cast gust of wind as a bonus action, dealing 1 point of frost and lightning damage , a number of time equal to her constitution mod per rest).
Now, some might say that it's to strong, personnaly i think that the sorcerer should be the class defined by their subclass the most, so it makes sense that they have more option that the other (also the level 18 hability does not matter ("wich" is the capstone after all) and is terrible for two out of the five (so few it hurts) existing subclass not counting ua, seriously "Draconic Presence" is a trap that you should never use and "spell bombardement" is more akin to spell firecracker, and those were the only one in the start of the game)

-Origin spells from level 1 spell to 5 (so 25 spells, you can also pick the 1 spell per level approach , less spells but more powerfull one in the end), generally one good spell and one mediocre/bad, that you might not really use but it's nice to have for your character thematicaly (my sea sorcerer can cast water breathing, useless for her, good for other, also create and destroy water, control of wind etc spell that i would/could never have picked but i'am glad to have now, not because they are usefull, but because it's cool)

-There is other idea, like constitution instead of charisma, we have judged it more thematic but it was also judged to be to strong and to late (for my sorcerer, already level 9, and for the other sorcerer in my game, charisma made more sense) we will test it one day tho. And obvisouly getting sorcery point on short rest was also taken into consideration, but considered not necessary and not the reason why the sorcerer is undertuned, however a magical object or a feat to increase them is a possibily.

[cutlery]

Do you usually play much beyond level 10?



Often.


Though, pre-10, if using point buy (and if not using point buy, some MAD classes and builds come into play which blow away a lot of other balance concerns), you need those ASIs to be spent on $casting stat and possibly dex or con, just to stay alive.


In levels 4-10, I'm not sure a wizard's true power is even evident (and to some extent, that versatility is entirely DM dependent; a few more base spells sure, but if they can't find a source of scrolls or spellbooks as loot, a lot of that versatility never gets realized); martials blow everything up, barbarans are at the height of their power, dual wielding still feels like a good idea, monks are blowing stuff up... it's just different from Tier 3.

FWIW, arcane recovery feels like a silly joke at 4-6 or so. There will often be times you're rolling on nearly empty, saving a level 1 or 2 slot for shield/misty step, super glad you're an elf so you have a longbow (because 1d8+dex makes fire bolt a sad joke, at least until tier 2, and maybe even then), and feeling generally useless.



Interesting. I have found the exact opposite; spell slot conversion is really expensive and inefficient and I only tend to do it near the end of an adventuring day if there is a spell I really need.

It is inefficient; but a wizard or warlock needs a short rest to get anything back at all (and the wizard only once per day of course); in dire straits a sorcerer can cannibalize other slots. That's nice, if you really have to, and no short rest required. Don't make a habit of it, of course, because you'll be casting fewer total spells per long rest when you do.




Twin should be taken at level 10 at the minimum. You don't have the slots to keep up otherwise. Quicken should be used as an absolute emergency button. A cantrip worth of damage is nowhere near worth a first level spell, you should use it if you plan on dodging or dashing or hiding, otherwise you should be have the 1 SP metamagics. Even if they aren't as cool and flashy as the two aforementioned, they do have some good uses to them.


I think you're right - when I play a sorcerer I almost never burn sorcery points just for the sake of an awesome nova, but I conserve resources until there is a target that really needs to die ASAP - a giant that's blasting people for 1/3 or 1/2 their health per swing, that sort of thing.

I don't doubt that people that roll into combat tossing quickened spells just to get another cantrip in the mix feel like they don't have enough sorcery points - because they're wasting them.

A battlemaster can blow all their superiority die in a round or two, too. That's not a good idea there, either.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

That was a bit inefficient, though. You probably didn't do nearly as much damage per spell point as you could have by just converting it into an extra fireball, to say nothing about having an extra 3rd-level slot that could be used for fly, counterspell, haste, or hypnotic pattern.

I realize that many people take quicken and twin as their first metamagics and it truly explains exactly how they manage to think spell points are so expensive. Especially with stories like twin polymorph or haste.

Twin should be taken at level 10 at the minimum. You don't have the slots to keep up otherwise. Quicken should be used as an absolute emergency button. A cantrip worth of damage is nowhere near worth a first level spell, you should use it if you plan on dodging or dashing or hiding, otherwise you should be have the 1 SP metamagics. Even if they aren't as cool and flashy as the two aforementioned, they do have some good uses to them.

So I guess we are in agreement that converting is inefficient, which is opposite to the post I was disagreeing with.
As far as a straight use of SP vs. say Empower (which I think is underrated):
An average fireball does 28 points. Lets say out of my 8 dice the lowest are 1,1,2,3, (7 total) then my re-roll would average 14 or 7 better. So for the use of 3 SP I'm up 21 and I still have 2 SP left. The other point I'd make is that I'm able to do that in fewer rounds, meaning I can still do something meaningful in the extra round that I would otherwise be casting my extra fireball.
Quicken: I agree that dodge, dash, or hide are excellent in a tight spot, but I have a level of Fighter with my current character, so I can get good mileage out of Green Flame Blade if I need to Nova and have multiple targets.
Agreed that the Twin/ Quicken options are expensive and probably a mistake to take both off the hop if you are playing RAW for # of metamagics, and probably 10th isn't a bad time to take it once you have spells like Polymorph and Haste.

[Asisreo1]

So I guess we are in agreement that converting is inefficient, which is opposite to the post I was disagreeing with.
As far as a straight use of SP vs. say Empower (which I think is underrated):
An average fireball does 28 points. Lets say out of my 8 dice the lowest are 1,1,2,3, (7 total) then my re-roll would average 14 or 7 better. So for the use of 3 SP I'm up 21 and I still have 2 SP left. The other point I'd make is that I'm able to do that in fewer rounds, meaning I can still do something meaningful in the extra round that I would otherwise be casting my extra fireball.
Quicken: I agree that dodge, dash, or hide are excellent in a tight spot, but I have a level of Fighter with my current character, so I can get good mileage out of Green Flame Blade if I need to Nova and have multiple targets.
Agreed that the Twin/ Quicken options are expensive and probably a mistake to take both off the hop if you are playing RAW for # of metamagics, and probably 10th isn't a bad time to take it once you have spells like Polymorph and Haste.
Assuming max charisma, the benefit on average from a reroll with a fireball spell is about 20-25% boost in average damage overall. If you spent all your points on empowering fireball (which wouldn't quite work without trading spell slots or upcasting), you'd actually be more efficient damage-wise.

But I was disagreeing that conversion was inefficient. It's more efficient than most uses of sorcery points. I'll also say that I do agree that empowered spell is heavily underrated. It's cheap and has the potential to do alot of damage.

Although, not all fireballs, I imagine, would have a sorcerer inclined to empower them if they got lucky with their rolls. I don't want to have to do the math, though.

[Amechra]

I'll also note I'm like, 90+% positive that the sorcerer was the last class designed; pretty sure it was just called 'mage' before being split into wizard and sorcerer again, and I kind-of wish they hadn't done that.

That's not terribly unlikely, actually. The original take on Sorcerers was very different, and they dropped it almost immediately when playtesters complained.

Basically, they were roughly speaking a half-caster. However, whenever they cast spells, they'd mutate a little bit. For example, a Draconic Sorcerer would start growing claws, scales, and wings - by the time they burned through all of their spells, they'd effectively become a full-on dragon. Mechanically, they would have been spellcasters that transition into martial characters throughout the day.

---

The Sorcerer houserule I'm personally thinking about is to just take the Mystic, change the "casting" stat, and rename it the Sorcerer. :smallbiggrin:

OK, that's a bit of a joke, but I think that learning broad packages makes more sense with regards to the Sorcerer class fantasy than learning discrete spells. You're supposed to be magic incarnate, filled with raw and primal power. It just feels off that you end up casting the same Fireballs and Counterspells that other casters do.

[Damon_Tor]

A toned down version of that mechanic would be you recover your proficiency bonus worth of sorcery points per short rest.

in my opinion, Sorcerers need something to balance out the lack of spells known & selection (in comparison with wizard) and the fact that you have to choose between casting spells or using meta-magic with sorcery points (where the wizard recharges just as many spells and has "always on" sub class abilities).

I've given a sorcerer in one one of my games a "boon" that functions kind of like a Mizzium Apparatus. The text of boon reads something like: "You can attempt to cast a sorcerer spell you do not know. The spell requires its usual components and casting time, but when you complete casting the spell, make a charisma (deception) check with a DC equal to 10+the level of the spell you are attempting to cast. On a success, the spell is cast normally. On a failure, a different spell is cast instead, as determined by the Dungeon Master. The Dungeon Master decides how to choose the targets of the replacement spell." Typically I decide what spell to cast based on how close the roll was. If they only missed by a hair, I'll replace the spell with something reasonably similar. If they missed by a lot, I'll replace it something very different. On a nat-1 I go totally wacky with it for entertainment value. Things like summoning someone else's "Leomund's Secret Chest" or a "Glyph of Warding" containing a mystery spell locked behind triggering conditions that are based on a dream the sorcerer had last night.

It's a deception check because the character in question is basically pretending so well that she's a wizard that reality buys into it. She carries around a "spellbook" that's just filled with convincing-looking doodles and such.

[cutlery]

Basically, they were roughly speaking a half-caster. However, whenever they cast spells, they'd mutate a little bit. For example, a Draconic Sorcerer would start growing claws, scales, and wings - by the time they burned through all of their spells, they'd effectively become a full-on dragon. Mechanically, they would have been spellcasters that transition into martial characters throughout the day.


Which sounds pretty neat to me. I’m not surprised the playtesters hated it, though - in 3/3.5 sorcerer was basically a much easier to play wizard. Now that wizard is a much easier to play wizard, and warlocks are whatever they are now, there isn’t much space left for sorcerers.

[Kane0]

That's not terribly unlikely, actually. The original take on Sorcerers was very different, and they dropped it almost immediately when playtesters complained.

Basically, they were roughly speaking a half-caster. However, whenever they cast spells, they'd mutate a little bit. For example, a Draconic Sorcerer would start growing claws, scales, and wings - by the time they burned through all of their spells, they'd effectively become a full-on dragon. Mechanically, they would have been spellcasters that transition into martial characters throughout the day.


That sounds amazing, but probably best placed elsewhere rather than the sorcerer. Warlock, druid or maybe barbarian subclass?

[Edea]

What if everything else stayed the same for the sorcerer, save for the following:

1) Reduce your cantrips known on the original table by one.

2) Your Sorcerous Origin grants you one cantrip and one spell known of each level as you gain the appropriate slots (so 1st through 9th, one spell each, total of nine leveled spells known over the course of the sorcerer's progression). These cannot be exchanged/retrained under any circumstances; they're integral to the Origin you chose and are 100% fixed (this is also an opportunity to create spells that you won't find anywhere else; for example, the cantrip for the Draconic Bloodline would be dragon's claws and let the sorcerer manifest weapons to fight with, the one for Wild Magic would be fate spinner and add positive mods to one roll in exchange for negative mods to another one, etc.).

3) Your remaining spells known stay at the same number as on the original table. However, your remaining cantrips known and remaining spells known can come from absolutely anywhere. Bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, warlock, wizard, doesn't matter. If it's magic, a sorcerer can grab it. Certain bloodlines would be corrected for this (such as Divine Soul). Total spells known at level 20 should be 24 (slightly higher than the bard, which is intentional), total cantrips known should be the same at 6.

4) You get Ritual Casting for any spell you know that has the ritual tag.

5) You become able to swap out a single spell known for another spell known for which you have spell slots after you finish a long rest.

[micahaphone]

I certainly like the first two ideas you have there. I don't think sorcerers need access to every spell ever, let that stay the bard's niche, and I think that ritual casting doesn't make much sense for the ultimate innate/primal caster, I'm okay with that requiring a feat.

Some amount of spell swapping would be on theme, but last time that came up on the forums there was an as-yet-unresolved tension between "swapping out spells known on long rest makes sorcerer stronger and more flexible than the wizard" and "it should exist but with some sort of cooldown or restriction, and we can't figure out a restriction that doesn't go against 5E style"

[Asisreo1]

I certainly like the first two ideas you have there. I don't think sorcerers need access to every spell ever, let that stay the bard's niche, and I think that ritual casting doesn't make much sense for the ultimate innate/primal caster, I'm okay with that requiring a feat.

Some amount of spell swapping would be on theme, but last time that came up on the forums there was an as-yet-unresolved tension between "swapping out spells known on long rest makes sorcerer stronger and more flexible than the wizard" and "it should exist but with some sort of cooldown or restriction, and we can't figure out a restriction that doesn't go against 5E style"
It kinda is and kinda isn't stronger than a wizard. A wizard gets away with it because their effective spell list is only 44 spells without DM intervention. That's 44 spells with an expected minimum of 8 1st-level spells that can't be changed or exchanged and more than half of them are lower level situational spells that kinda suck overall and aren't necessarily worth preparing. A sorcerer could actually know the best spells within their adventure they'd find useful at basically any point, with full access to a much larger effective spell list. Other prepared casters get away with it because they don't typically have such valuable spells like shield, mage armor, fly, fireball, misty step, etc. All in the same spell list.

On the other hand, the sheer amount of spells available to the sorcerer at anyone single time will be less than the wizard. The sorcerer will have greater depth but the wizard will have greater breadth.

[Edea]

Could also pare that down from "anything," but I do know for a fact that, repeatedly, people complained and railed against the sorcerer's spell list being "wizard -1." It also irritates me; IMO they need some bones on their list.

Now, maybe having the Sorcerous Origin spells be super-unique and, perhaps, unpoachable (even by a bard) would make having the "wizard -1" spell list not-so-bad. Or, just flat-out have sorcerer and wizard share the exact same list (that has the benefit of not needing to address 'expanded list' abilities like Divine Soul's).

[micahaphone]

It kinda is and kinda isn't stronger than a wizard. A wizard gets away with it because their effective spell list is only 44 spells without DM intervention. That's 44 spells with an expected minimum of 8 1st-level spells that can't be changed or exchanged and more than half of them are lower level situational spells that kinda suck overall and aren't necessarily worth preparing. A sorcerer could actually know the best spells within their adventure they'd find useful at basically any point, with full access to a much larger effective spell list. Other prepared casters get away with it because they don't typically have such valuable spells like shield, mage armor, fly, fireball, misty step, etc. All in the same spell list.

On the other hand, the sheer amount of spells available to the sorcerer at anyone single time will be less than the wizard. The sorcerer will have greater depth but the wizard will have greater breadth.

I agree with you and like the idea of some spell swapping. If I remember correctly, the biggest concern of those against the rule variant were that in campaigns with plenty of downtime, a sorcerer could theoretically swap more than a wizard, unless the wizard has lots of money and access to spellbooks to copy. Purely anecdotal but I've never played in a 5e campaign with much downtime but the rules do need to cover a wide variety of options, including campaigns with downtime and no arcane libraries.


I definitely agree that sorcerers need more spell choices or at least some unique ones. It's infuriating that there's several very thematic spells that a sorc can't take because it has a wizard name. Like a dragon sorcerer should have access to Melf's Acid Arrow, or a shadow sorcerer could use Evard's Black Tentacles.

[cutlery]

I definitely agree that sorcerers need more spell choices or at least some unique ones. It's infuriating that there's several very thematic spells that a sorc can't take because it has a wizard name. Like a dragon sorcerer should have access to Melf's Acid Arrow, or a shadow sorcerer could use Evard's Black Tentacles.

They could take these in 3/3.5 - back when their on the fly flexibility made them the best blasters by far. Sorcerers are in a weird spot now that wizards don't prepare spells for specific slots (and there are no longer effects that can wipe those memorized slots). Adding more of these spells muddies the water even further. I'd go with a few more versions of Chaos Orb rather than the old named spells (thought it's weird that only a handful of warlocks get black tentacles, too). If they brought back elemental swapping an acid dragon sorcerer can throw acid balls, instead. There's a UA metamagic for it, but it ought to be baseline.

If the class were to be given something that makes them distinct, more spells (or a longer list) probably shouldn't be it; the full caster roster is crowded and there is too much overlap among the (formerly) arcane casters. The Class versatility UA does add foresight to the sorcerer list, though.

Other than some thematic fluff, the wizard and sorcerer don't do different enough things anymore; metamagic could have been a wizard archetype.

Adding more spell selection versatility to sorcerers to compensate for the fact that wizards gained a lot of on-the-fly versatility just makes them even more interchangeable. I still think taking that on the fly versatility away from wizards makes the most sense.

[Mr Adventurer]

Wow, some great points here.

Having seen a Sorcerer played, and now having played one for a couple of levels (4 and 5), I think they do need a little bit of a boost.

More spells known would be nice, but I don't think we need to go as far as Domains, Patrons, or Artificer subclasses do by giving 2 extra spells known per spell level. I might suggest perhaps one spell known per spell level according to sorcerous origin, up to level 5 spells. But Divine Soul knowing 1 extra thematic spell works well too, because its theme can be captured by knowing other Cleric spells. (I'm not clear whether Shadow Sorcerers can trade out their Darkness spell, and if they do whether they can still cast it with Sorcery points since the ability says "you learn a spell [...] you can cast it with sorcery points", which suggests if you unlearn it, you have nothing you can use sorcery points to cast, but if it's not a problem they too get their +1 spell and retain their thematic casting another way). Though actually, I don't think this is the best fix.

But my feeling is, having made Metamagic the sole domain of the Sorcerer, you should be able to use it far more often than you currently can. Every spell a Sorcerer casts should be a candidate. They should be throwing out spells that are warped and weaved in ways that no other spellcaster can achieve. As it stands, the reserve of Sorcery points is too small and too infrequent for this to be the case. Hence, my suggestion of a short-action recharge (along with a limit on Flexible Casting to prevent too many spell slots).

EDIT

An alternative approach would be to have Sorcery Points work in a radically different way. Instead of one per level, you have a smaller number, like Cha mod +1 or Tier +1 or something. They recharge on a Short rest. Then, you can spend 1 to apply a "lesser" metamagic" to any spell, or 2 to apply a "greater" metamagic to any spell, or 1 to recharge one of your expended highest-level spell slots (up to 5th level perhaps).

[cutlery]

But my feeling is, having made Metamagic the sole domain of the Sorcerer, you should be able to use it far more often than you currently can. Every spell a Sorcerer casts should be a candidate.

I think this is a Tier 1/early Tier 2 thing; points are precious then. At 9th, you can throw two twinned hold monsters in a row, which is 6th-level spell strong, and have a pretty big reserve of points after. Spells themselves are already strong, so too much metamagic could be a problem.

A smaller pool of sorcery points that regen on a short rest would possibly feel worse, as then sorcerers get hit with the same problem other short resters do - not enough short rests in an adventuring day. However, I suppose the more classes that want short rests the more of them will get taken. Font of magic would need a rework, too - as they'd then either have too much or zero slot recovery.

OTOH, a pool that scales up slower from a larger start point like superiority die (and also SR) might be better; but if it was superiority die things like twin would never get used (as it would still cost an entire sup die).

This starts to sound a bit like Psionic die; and we run into one of the classic problems with sorcery and psionics - they overlap too much, both thematically and mechanically.

[Edea]

I would probably do the following for a 'quick-and-dirty' sorcerer fix, if given the opportunity to change things:

Move Font of Magic up to 1st and the first Metamagic feature up to 2nd.
Have the 10th level and 17th level Metamagic features let you pick two metamagic options rather than one.
Replace the Sorcery Point Cap and Spells Known values as follows:

Sorcerer Level Sorcery Point Cap Spells Known
1st 2 4
2nd 3 5
3rd 4 6
4th 5 8
5th 7 9
6th 8 10
7th 9 11
8th 10 13
9th 11 14
10th 12 15
11th 14 16
12th 15 17
13th 16 18
14th 17 19
15th 19 20
16th 20 21
17th 21 22
18th 22 23
19th 23 24
20th 24 25
Use the same base spell list as the wizard.
Give them the same Ritual Casting ability as a bard; if they know the spell and it has the ritual tag, they can cast it as a ritual.
That's it, really. I'd also use the 'one spell replacable per long rest' variant rule, but that would apply to all non-prepared casters and isn't 100% necessary given this new Spells Known column.

Reviewing how Font of Magic works, I actually found myself rescinding my opinion on needing an early-game short rest mechanic for them. They just need a slightly higher max total to allow for more wiggle room with metamagic usage (and it should be there from 1st).

I would like to do more than that (significantly more), but those are fixes that are pretty easy to houserule in without having to review a whole bunch of new features.

[ToastyTobasco]

Font of Life (5th level)
"Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose to expend a single hit die to recover a number of expended sorcery points equal to [some value, such your Charisma modifier, or your proficiency bonus, or 1/2 your sorc level, etc. etc.] (minimum of 1 recovered sorcery point). You cannot exceed your maximum sorcery point total for your level through this ability."

Metamagic acquisition levels: 3rd (x2), 7th, 10th, 13th, 17th.

Neat! I really like this and I just made a thread asking about this very thing and you've even got a snappy on theme name for it! Good Metamagic spread there too!

[Edea]

Neat! I really like this and I just made a thread asking about this very thing and you've even got a snappy on theme name for it! Good Metamagic spread there too!

Aw, thanks :smallsmile:

It's hard to come up with stuff that doesn't get a lot of people riled up, though, you've got a camp that thinks the sorc's fine (TBH it probably is), a camp that thinks it needs a lot of work (that's my group), a camp that actually thinks it's OP (probably due to very short adventuring day gamestyles, especially ones where short rests just don't happen), etc. etc.

I have a bunch of sorcerer subclasses and other things written up, but I'm afraid they're too strong and/or not fun to play with so I keep hesitating on posting them.

[fat.hampster]

In 3.5, sorcerers filled a niche with their flexibility, because wizards were more restricted. 5 has removed that limitation on wizards, leaving sorcerers feeling a bit without a niche, especially for those that liked the fluff of 3.5.

Assuming it's unpalatable to put back in the specific spell preparations, we could at least look to make daily spell choice feel constrained. I'd suggest half wizards level + int spells prepared, with a limit of 1 for each level 6th or higher, and add the facility to swap one spell prepared at each short rest. This is altogether a moderate nerf, that feels very thematic to me at least.

Now, onto sorcerers. I want to up the world known so that it definitely feels more than the wizards prepared, but less than the wizards known. In this way the wizard has more versatility, but less in the moment flexibility. I'd also like to remove the facility to replace spells known: that feels wildly unthematic for a sorcerer to me. I'd suggest an extra first level spell, an extra "domain" Spell for 1-5, and keeping up 1 new spell per level after 11. The domain works could also be used to help balance the subclasses. If you're too lazy to set up domain lists, I'd be tempted to just add an extra spell at even levels up till 10.

I'd also look at limiting sp conversion into spells. Maybe allow turning a slot into a 1 level higher slot, by paying the higher slot + 1 in spell points. So use a 2nd level slot to carry fireball by paying (3+1)sp. I'd probably prevent chaining, but that might be unnecessary. Not sure about 1st level spells, but probably leave it as 2 sp. I'd want to tune the cost so that it was very rare, but useful in an emergency, to retain a feeling of flexibility, but have the focus on other uses. I'd then consider adding a short rest sp recovery facility of proficiency bonus, but it probably wouldn't be needed.

How does that all sound? Have I over /under tuned something? Have I lost some important flavour?

[Amechra]

I have a bunch of sorcerer subclasses and other things written up, but I'm afraid they're too strong and/or not fun to play with so I keep hesitating on posting them.

Post them! (In the homebrew section, obviously).

If they're too strong or obnoxious to play with, people will mention that, and you'll have information on how to fix them.

If they aren't, you get validation. :smallbiggrin:

It's a win-win!

[5eNeedsDarksun]

In 3.5, sorcerers filled a niche with their flexibility, because wizards were more restricted. 5 has removed that limitation on wizards, leaving sorcerers feeling a bit without a niche, especially for those that liked the fluff of 3.5.

Assuming it's unpalatable to put back in the specific spell preparations, we could at least look to make daily spell choice feel constrained. I'd suggest half wizards level + int spells prepared, with a limit of 1 for each level 6th or higher, and add the facility to swap one spell prepared at each short rest. This is altogether a moderate nerf, that feels very thematic to me at least.

Now, onto sorcerers. I want to up the world known so that it definitely feels more than the wizards prepared, but less than the wizards known. In this way the wizard has more versatility, but less in the moment flexibility. I'd also like to remove the facility to replace spells known: that feels wildly unthematic for a sorcerer to me. I'd suggest an extra first level spell, an extra "domain" Spell for 1-5, and keeping up 1 new spell per level after 11. The domain works could also be used to help balance the subclasses. If you're too lazy to set up domain lists, I'd be tempted to just add an extra spell at even levels up till 10.

I'd also look at limiting sp conversion into spells. Maybe allow turning a slot into a 1 level higher slot, by paying the higher slot + 1 in spell points. So use a 2nd level slot to carry fireball by paying (3+1)sp. I'd probably prevent chaining, but that might be unnecessary. Not sure about 1st level spells, but probably leave it as 2 sp. I'd want to tune the cost so that it was very rare, but useful in an emergency, to retain a feeling of flexibility, but have the focus on other uses. I'd then consider adding a short rest sp recovery facility of proficiency bonus, but it probably wouldn't be needed.

How does that all sound? Have I over /under tuned something? Have I lost some important flavour?

I'll stay away from the specifics, however, I agree with the premise of looking at the Wizard if people feel they are OP (particularly at higher levels).
The basic reason in the context of this discussion is that there is broad agreement that Sorcerers are not a weak class, particularly the better subclasses. Some people seem to think that Sorcerers aren't really worth it as they are too similar to Wizards, which are pretty universally regarded as one of, if not the strongest, classes. I get that some tables just aren't ok with Nerfs, but if you are going to try to Buff a strong class like Sorcerer to make it equal to the best class, then realistically you are going to have to Buff pretty much every other class. Seems a heck of a lot easier to Nerf the Wizard if players at your table hold the view that the Sorc is being hard done by in comparison.

[Aimeryan]

I'll stay away from the specifics, however, I agree with the premise of looking at the Wizard if people feel they are OP (particularly at higher levels).
The basic reason in the context of this discussion is that there is broad agreement that Sorcerers are not a weak class, particularly the better subclasses. Some people seem to think that Sorcerers aren't really worth it as they are too similar to Wizards, which are pretty universally regarded as one of, if not the strongest, classes. I get that some tables just aren't ok with Nerfs, but if you are going to try to Buff a strong class like Sorcerer to make it equal to the best class, then realistically you are going to have to Buff pretty much every other class. Seems a heck of a lot easier to Nerf the Wizard if players at your table hold the view that the Sorc is being hard done by in comparison.

Sorcerers are not weak per say, however, they can end up flailing around ineffectively if the right choices are not made. The resultant solution is very cookie-cutter generic spell selections that at least can hammer that screw in even if the Wizard would instead be using a screwdriver. This means weaker solves than would otherwise be the case, along with a lot of repetitiveness which makes for a less fun class.

The recent UA that allows them to change a single spell on a long rest helps a lot, although it may be too good as is - my recommendation to the devs is to not allow a straight up swap but introduce some controlled randomness like 'pick 4 spells, assign each to a number on a d4, roll to see which you get'. Being able to choose more situational but more powerful spells would reduce the weakness and make for more interesting plays.

Another issue is that the Sorcerer's shtick is punitive to use, as it reduces your ability to cast more (and more powerful) spells. My personal recommendation for this would be to use the Spell Point variant for Sorcerers only, disable Font Of Magic, increase Sorcerer Points for Metamagic, increase Metamagics Known, and add in some more flavoursome Metamagics (like the energy type one from the UA). The result should be fluid spell power that is different to a Wizard's more organised Spell Slots and actual motivation and good feelings from using Metamagics more than a couple of times a session. Power will be lessened by not being able to convert Sorcerer Points to more spells, but will be increased by being able to use Spell Points more efficiently - so I'm not sure whether it would move much in either direction.

[Hellpyre]

In I'd also like to remove the facility to replace spells known: that feels wildly unthematic for a sorcerer to me.

I don't disagree that it's non good thematically, but there are very good mechanical reasons to keep that in from the perspective of a game that is sold to people. It makes it easier to salvage a character inside the rules for a new player, especially if Spell X sounded cool but wasn't fun or useful to the player in practice. It's much more important to have that for newer players than it is for enfranchised ones. If you want to change it, you should keep in mind that the class becomes less friendly to players in doing so.

[Aimeryan]

I don't disagree that it's non good thematically, but there are very good mechanical reasons to keep that in from the perspective of a game that is sold to people. It makes it easier to salvage a character inside the rules for a new player, especially if Spell X sounded cool but wasn't fun or useful to the player in practice. It's much more important to have that for newer players than it is for enfranchised ones. If you want to change it, you should keep in mind that the class becomes less friendly to players in doing so.

I do disagree; Sorcerers are meant to unpractised and wild, not stuck to the same old thing day-in-day-out. I don't think they should have much control over it, however, I do feel it would be thematic to allow some change at regular intervals - see my previous post. I would even consider it thematic to allow the Sorcerer to attempt any Sorcerer spell at will, if with great cost due to lack of control.

The Wizard is able to use control to swap out whole swaths of spells for other spells, with complete precision - that is the power of control that Sorcerers don't have.

[Edea]

Buffs are easier than nerfs to swallow, generally. This is the core of power creep. People get mad when you nerf, and that can impact sales or generally leave the community feeling cantankerous.

Probably the biggest single nerf would be directed towards how prepared casting itself works. Remove the 'select your sorcerer-esque spell repertoire every day' mechanic, and force prepared casters to declare in advance what's in each individual spell slot (and right there, you'd get tons of push-back).

For multiclassing, if you had multiple prepared casting classes, they'd have to fight over the slots; you'd only be able to prepare one spell per slot. If you have a prepared and a spontaneous casting class, you can use the slot for a spell from the spontaneous class whether there's a prepared spell in it or not, but then that prepared spell is lost.

Under no clrcumstances allow in-class exceptions. No "cleric spontaneous cure wounds conversion" or any of that. Any feature that allows 'extra spells prepared' no longer does that, either, such as Domains; just delete those sections completely (I'd probably replace them with 'these normally non-cleric spells are now considered to be on the cleric spell list for you' lists).

Also, the bard should not be a full caster (or a ritual caster, for that matter). It gets to do too much as it is; it only needs half-casting along the lines of a paladin or ranger. I'd then assign it Extra Attack by default at 5th, remove Font of Inspiration and just make inspiration dice short-rest recoverable from 1st, remove Magical Secrets, and then adjust the bard's subclasses/spell list/etc. accordingly. Hell, the artificer shouldn't have the Spellcasting feature at all, it should be in the same group of 'pseudo-casters' as the warlock (requiring a complete re-design). Rangers should be preparing their spells in the same way as a druid, etc..

Prepared "Full-Casters": cleric, druid, wizard
Spontaneous "Full-Casters": sorcerer
Prepared "Half-Casters": paladin, ranger
Spontaneous "Half-Casters": bard
"Third-Casters" (all spontaneous): spell-hybrid sub-classes for otherwise pure martials.
"Pseudo-Casters" (lack the Spellcasting class feature): artificer, warlock
The sorcerer's number of selectable spells known can remain low IF the subclasses in turn always add a strongly-themed list of bonus, non-retrainable spells known to that total, and also provide a subclass feature to encourage using the themed spells (probably via making them easier/more efficient to cast).

[Asisreo1]

Buffs are easier than nerfs to swallow, generally. This is the core of power creep. People get mad when you nerf, and that can impact sales or generally leave the community feeling cantankerous.

Probably the biggest single nerf would be directed towards how prepared casting itself works. Remove the 'select your sorcerer-esque spell repertoire every day' mechanic, and force prepared casters to declare in advance what's in each individual spell slot (and right there, you'd get tons of push-back).
I 100% understand that this could be a useful way to tone down spellcasters, but I hate it with a burning passion because it slows down play by an eternity. Rests should take 5 minutes maximum irl, but these can cause spellcasters to take up to half an hour trying to micromanage these spells.

It's also needlessly complex. I'm fine with the spellcasting system as-is. If there's any specific problem with spells and whatnot, I'd rather that particular spell gets tweaked so introducing a new player to a wizard doesn't feel like giving them an introduction lecture into a course in university.

[ToastyTobasco]

Just throwing a couple ideas out here:
So the issue with Sorc stems from a rigid list for choices and you are locked within those choices.

What are everyones thoughts about the Variant Rule for swapping a single spell per long rest?

What about an option to swap Metamagic per long rest? Or on level up?

[cutlery]

Just throwing a couple ideas out here:
So the issue with Sorc stems from a rigid list for choices and you are locked within those choices.

What are everyones thoughts about the Variant Rule for swapping a single spell per long rest?

What about an option to swap Metamagic per long rest? Or on level up?

The funny thing about the long rest spell swap is this, over time, gives the sorcerer far more flexibility than the wizard, unless scrolls are plentiful.

[Mr Adventurer]

So the issue with Sorc stems from a rigid list for choices and you are locked within those choices.

I'll be back on the other comments later, but:

Actually the issue I specify in the OP is about there not being enough metamagic use.

I actually don't mind the small list so much, though think the +1 spell from Divine and Shadow are appropriate.

[Asisreo1]

The funny thing about the long rest spell swap is this, over time, gives the sorcerer far more flexibility than the wizard, unless scrolls are plentiful.
Yep, the wizard was designed with a larger variety of spells, but a smaller effective spell list. A wizard has 44 spells they can prepare. Of those 44, 8 of them are guaranteed 1st-level spells which are very likely to drop-off in terms of productivity barring shield and maybe magic missile. Sorcerers can replace their low level spells for relevant spells. If a sorcerer is replacing spells every level, they touch roughly 34 of them.

The flexibility added to the sorcerer may actually be overkill from this variant. I'm sure we'll see alot of "Sorcerer's are wizards but without short rests and with less trap options."

I'll keep my optimism about me, though.

[Aimeryan]

What are everyones thoughts about the Variant Rule for swapping a single spell per long rest?

As I mentioned previously, it kind of goes too far; the issue is not that it is too powerful, but that it allows the Sorcerer to be the guaranteed knows-this-spell-solution with just a Long Rest - well, as long as it is on the Sorcerer Spell List. One of Wizard's niches is to be knowledgeable and likely to have the solution, maybe with a needed Long Rest - Sorcerers would outdo them on this.

The solution for me is to introduce some randomness to the equation for Sorcerers; instead of a straight swap, 'pick 4 spells not currently known, assign each of these to a number on a d4, roll the d4 to decide which one gets swapped in'. The great thing about this is that it shows lack of complete control, but it still allows a Sorcerer to adapt to the situation at hand - albeit, slowly. One of the biggest issues for Sorcerers are Spells Known and this would go a long way to helping with that.

[Kane0]

Would it really be that big a deal, needing a long rest to have the perfect spell ready? How often would you have that sort of situation that wont pass after a long rest?

[Edea]

I feel it can be perceived in a manner that 'fits' fluff-wise.

Sorcerers function by exerting their willpower to manipulate the Weave. When presented with a situation that imposes difficulty or suffering, a sorcerer might subconsciously "wish" that they were able to more easily overcome that problem. That can set up vibrations both within the Weave and within themselves and, if the inciting stimulus is strong enough and enough time passes (i.e. a long rest), even change the way a sorcerer is able to express those desires, such that one spell they 'knew' becomes another one.

My main problem with it is 'which one?'. Codifying that fluff excuse up there into a mechanically balanced rule is challenging. Ideally you'd have the DM to pick the new spell (and spell replaced) for the sorcerer, trusting the DM to shift their repertoire in such a way that it will really help the character out in this new situation. But being a 3.5 refugee, I feel a strong desire of my own to leave this fully in control of the player, and that would probably end up making this whole process feel much less thematic, and more like a band-aid.

[ToastyTobasco]

The funny thing about the long rest spell swap is this, over time, gives the sorcerer far more flexibility than the wizard, unless scrolls are plentiful.
I'm not sure I would say far more flexibility. But Wizards simply need scrolls and most games I come across, the party gets scrolls often enough. Personally, I like Sorc having either flexibility or spells per day over the Wiz for all it gets. That and every other caster but Bard is not


I'll be back on the other comments later, but:

Actually the issue I specify in the OP is about there not being enough metamagic use.

I actually don't mind the small list so much, though think the +1 spell from Divine and Shadow are appropriate.

I would also agree with the lack of MM use. I really enjoy finding new metamagic options in UA or some homebrews.

The small spell list is nice, I just would want a tiny, tiny boost like Xany did for all subclasses. When working out homebrew sorc fixes, adding 10 spells ala domains felt like too much. I really just want to find the spells that would be fun to twist with metamagic rather than be game-breaking or uber nova damage. Sorc really doesnt need a ton of fixes to improve the feel and function. Divine Soul does a hella good job at this, I just want all the subclasses to feel worthwhile. Wild magic though is a bit of a mess as per PHB.

[cutlery]

I'm not sure I would say far more flexibility. But Wizards simply need scrolls and most games I come across, the party gets scrolls often enough. Personally, I like Sorc having either flexibility or spells per day over the Wiz for all it gets. That and every other caster but Bard is not



Sorcerers already have the potential for more spells per day, as font of magic can yield more spell slots than arcane recovery.

And you don't always get scroll access, unfortunately - or if you do, you get real winners like Witch Bolt, Melf's Acid Arrow, or Mordenkainen's Sword.

Anyway, over a long enough time line, swapping one spell per short rest can potentially let the sorcerer a greater variety of spells than many wizards, if they choose to take it. I'd probably change the UA options to 1-2 more spells changed upon level up.

Really though, so long as wizards prepare spells instead of memorizing specific slots, they're nearly broken. Buffing other classes to match is a bad idea.

[Kane0]

Sorcerers already have the potential for more spells per day, as font of magic can yield more spell slots than arcane recovery.


If you’re trying to replicate Arcane Recovery on highest level slots you can get then Font of Magic is basically equal except for a handful of levels where it marginally pulls ahead or falls behind, not counting that your SP also fuels other things.