Cyberpunk - What exactly is it?

[Accelerator]

What is the basic tenets of cyberpunk?

When you look at cyberpunk, what do you think of?

What scenes are quintessential to cyberpunk, and what is it that you would normally never find in Cyberpunk novels?

What are the defining attributes of a cyberpunk world?

[Fyraltari]

What is the basic tenets of cyberpunk?

When you look at cyberpunk, what do you think of?

What scenes are quintessential to cyberpunk, and what is it that you would normally never find in Cyberpunk novels?

What are the defining attributes of a cyberpunk world?

Cyberpunk is a genre of futuristic/dystopian fiction where runaway capitalism and technology has made the world a terrible place. It generally incorporates transhumanist elements but played for horror as they are used to dehumanize/control the people rather than unlock their potential. Other common traits are huge corporations operating at state-level with their own army and propaganda machines.

[Kitten Champion]

It's the merger of a punk subculture mentality into speculative fiction about cybernetics and transhumanism. Punk erring towards cynicism, anti-establishment beliefs, personal freedom, and a certain aggressive loudness.

There's also an implicit element of postmodernism in the genre. As the world is absorbed into a post-capitalist dystopia, ideologies beyond fulfilling personal desires are often shrugged off as rational motivation for characters. Even on a meta-level, it's not the typical Brave New World or 1984-esque dystopia where it's shouting at the reader/viewer that this future must be avoided, no, it's more of an exaggeration of the then-present with a cynical lens to it than any kind of implicit plea.

I would also say it tends towards the noir - tragically flawed characters, hyper-urbanized environments, no happy families, predominantly about the lower rung of society and how they can intersect with the wealthy - due to the influence of genre-seminal works like Neuromancer or Blade Runner. I think Japanese cyberpunk tends to differ from Western cyberpunk as the noir elements are less significant, among other things more endemic of the Japanese experience especially in the 80's.

[Eldan]

Cynicism and future pessimism. It's partially a reaction to the glowing future predictions that were around until the fifties and sixties. The future didn't bring manly men with rayguns founding crystals cities on Mars, it brings more of the same, but worse. The state and the people have lost all power to lobbyists and international corporations that can do as they please. The world consists of megacities stretching across continents, surrounded by hydroponic farms and wastelands. With automation and AI, most of the population has become so worthless that their options are to sit at high-rise slums consuming stupefying mass media and government-provided yeast-algae-slurry from a tube, or turn to crime. The streets are ruled by gangs of violent, uneducated, directionless youth gangs and brutal privatized police that would be called fascist if they had any ideology.

The main characters are outcast loner criminals who go up against those corporations. Except that even if they pull a fast one and make it out with some money, or some secret tech, or prevent some horrible plan... the corporations still win in the end. 20 years down the line, the main character is killed in a gang shooting while trying to eat some noodles and the corporations plow forward without even noticing.

Nothing changes and nothing can change. There will not even be a giant, society-ending apocalypse, there will just be a slow downward spiral with the momentum of the entire world economy behind it.

[t209]

So what about stories like Ghost in the Shell, where the protagonists are essentially the one usually portrayed as bad guys in other Cyberpunk stories since they are essentially a militarized police—not privatized though—even if dysfunctions in society (high crime rate, refugees from turmoil being exploited, or much of protagonists also dealing with inept government) are pointed out.

[Fyraltari]

So what about stories like Ghost in the Shell, where the protagonists are essentially the one usually portrayed as bad guys in other Cyberpunk stories since they are essentially a militarized police—not privatized though—even if dysfunctions in society (high crime rate, refugees from turmoil being exploited, or much of protagonists also dealing with inept government) are pointed out.

Ghost in the shell is cyberpunk. There's nothing about the genre that says the protagonist can't be a cog in the system. Dystopian protagonists usually are, going as far back as Winston "propaganda drone" Smith from 1984.

[Eldan]

I've heard people call Ghost in the Shell Post-Cyberpunk. *shrug*.

Though I think personally, my problem with GitS being Cyberpunk would be more the generally more positive mood about the future (dark, but hopeful), than the fact that they are government agents.

[Kitten Champion]

Japanese cyberpunk isn't the same as Western cyberpunk, as I said.

Different cultural values inform different stories. Most Japanese cyberpunk focuses more on the technology, the dehumanization, the sexual subtext, and transhumanist philosophy than ubiquitous corporate power or the disintegration of the State. Not that more punk-like cyberpunk isn't expressed in Japan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxPPkDW3gr8&ab_channel=ArrowVideo) as well, but interests tended to move into other themes and concepts.

Two big reasons being that Western cyberpunk expressed anxiety over Japan's growing economic hegemony in the 80's while obviously Japanese culture didn't exactly share that sentiment, or rather internalized it differently. The other being that much of Western cyberpunk was an extrapolation from the 80's political environment especially in terms of a hands-off State and the rise of corporate globalism while Japan was more concerned about the loss of the Japanese identity, inter-generational conflict, and the decline of the welfare state as Japan looks more like America.

Then you get into post-cyberpunk stuff from the mid-to-late 90's and onward where the cyberpunk-as-counter-culture is dead. Which is far less interested in politics and more into the broader ideas and anxieties over extant technologies as extrapolated somewhat into the future and how its affecting us personally.

[LibraryOgre]

I've heard people call Ghost in the Shell Post-Cyberpunk. *shrug*.

Though I think personally, my problem with GitS being Cyberpunk would be more the generally more positive mood about the future (dark, but hopeful), than the fact that they are government agents.

"It is better to burn a building than to curse the darkness" is very cyberpunk, I think. :smallbiggrin:

I tend to agree with most of the above... dystopia, usually in the near future (though I would say the Takeshi Kovacs novels, set thousands of years in the future, also qualify), where corporate power equals or exceeds state power, and answers only to shareholders. There's a semi-professional underclass of criminals who act as deniable assets for corporate, governmental, or non-governmental forces. There's often a reason why these individuals are no longer considered citizens... either born to the underclass, or lost their status somehow.

And, in the best cyberpunk, there's elves and wizards and ****.

[Rynjin]

What is the basic tenets of cyberpunk?

--
What are the defining attributes of a cyberpunk world?



The "punk" part is exceptionally important for Cyberpunk more than any other punk genre IMO. The act of rebelling is an integral part of the genre, though whether it is the protagonists or some other group rebelling is negotiable.

As a result, the genre absolutely requires something for those people to rebel against. That implies a generally undesirable state, and if not a dystopia then something very much like a dystopia must be a basic part of the cyberpunk genre as well. At the very least some kind of rigidity, stagnation, repression, oppression, or combination of the above needs to be present for it to be cyberpunk and not just a future sci-fi story.

At this point I also think that some level of retro-futurism is necessary for cyberpunk as well, as many of the ideas that the genre was based on have shifted in terms of values over time...in part because some of the dystopian elements cautioned against by the founders of the genre have become all too real.


When you look at cyberpunk, what do you think of?

Specific genre examples; Ghost in the Shell, Deus Ex, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk (the novel and the game).


What scenes are quintessential to cyberpunk, and what is it that you would normally never find in Cyberpunk novels?

I don't think any particular scenes are quintessential, save maybe a discussion of transhumanism is USUALLY going to be present, as transhumanism is a near omnipresent theme of cyberpunk as well (though I don't think it's strictly necessary for a work to be part of the genre).

What would you never find...a happy (read: all loose ends neatly tied up, all conflicts resolved satisfactorily, etc.) ending. Bittersweet or ambiguous, sure. But I think an unequivocally happy ending breaks a cyberpunk story. If there is nothing more to rebel against, it is no longer punk. So at a best case scenario when credits roll or the last page is turned, the protagonist still needs to be living in the world that caused whatever conflict he just dealt with, and fundamentally unhappy with it even if their personal story has been resolve to their satisfaction.

[HandofShadows]

I've heard people call Ghost in the Shell Post-Cyberpunk. *shrug*.

Though I think personally, my problem with GitS being Cyberpunk would be more the generally more positive mood about the future (dark, but hopeful), than the fact that they are government agents.

Yeah, while there are bad guys in power and things can be dark, there are also honest people in power fighting them. In many places people live normal lives, raise families and don't worry some big corporation is going to ruin their lives. TV Tropes lists GitS as straddling the line between cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk.

[Florian]

What is the basic tenets of cyberpunk?

When you look at cyberpunk, what do you think of?

What scenes are quintessential to cyberpunk, and what is it that you would normally never find in Cyberpunk novels?

What are the defining attributes of a cyberpunk world?

I think it is important to look at the two component parts individually, then look at how they interact.

Capitalism has that one siren song at its core: A certain amount of unbalance is needed for innovation and advancement to grow, closing the gap. This is where the "cyber" part comes in. It recognizes that this is an ever-repeating circle.

For example, it shows us that switching from CO2-heavy fossil resources, like coal or oil, the switch to regenerative resources, like power and fuel cells, will only shift the battlefield from gaining control over oil over to rare minerals.

The "punk" part is harder to grasp. Again, there are two siren calls to consider here: Progressives thinking offers a solution: Stick with us and with sufficient advancement we can overcome it. Regressive thinking, like nationalism, protectionism or, more importantly, romanticism all give counter-propositions: Either we can control it right now, or turn it back to the point that it was "good". The "punk" part is very much about: No, we are in error here. I will piss against the wind and as a result have piss all over my jeans, but by doing so, I proved both stances wrong, because I showed that I can easily suffer the consequences people say no-one would.

Ok, a bit more elaborate example is needed here: A system that needs unbalance, winners and loser, will break down once there is no chance for the loser to become winners. Drugs and crime will be the answer here and quite averse to the will of the winners.

Together, they form the picture of a dystopia. While there is advancement, it will only get worse.

Ghost in the Shell - Stand Alone Complex 1 and 2 are actually splendid examples (Forget the initial movie, the "New Movie" and the Netflix series".). So are classics like the Neuromancer series and the Bridge series by Gibson.

[Yora]

Cyberpunk is near-future science fiction in which communications technology did not make society more democratic but less.
It's also almost universally Neo-Noir. It's basically all detective stories about corruption, but also the exploitation of regular people by faceless elites.

The main message of Cyberpunk is that technology won't be solving our problems. It only shifts things around, but the underlying issues of society won't just go away automatically. Opression and exploitation can simply continue in the 21st century the same way it was in the 19th. Just with more gadgets.

If it's not set entirely in a city like New York, Los Angeles, or Tokyo and not always night and raining, it's probably Post-Cyberpunk. :smallwink:
Though I'd say the defining aspect of post-cyberpunk is that the protagonist isn't a cynical anarchist. Post-Cyberpunk is a particularly silly name, because it keeps the Cyber, but ditched the Punk. They are clearly very closely related, but post-Cyberpunk isn't really about rebellious cynicism and more idealistic in tone.

[CharonsHelper]

I've heard people call Ghost in the Shell Post-Cyberpunk. *shrug*.

Though I think personally, my problem with GitS being Cyberpunk would be more the generally more positive mood about the future (dark, but hopeful), than the fact that they are government agents.

Harrison Ford started as a government agent in Blade Runner, which is arguably the seminal mainstream cyberpunk piece - though he basically goes rogue at the end, in the first GitS movie (not the show - though I actually preferred the show), doesn't she basically go rogue at the end and merge with the AI?


Though of course, like all such categorizations, it's pretty subjective. And it's kinda weird how some sci-fi categories like Cyberpunk feel like they need to freeze in place with the 80's/90's vibe, while others such as Space Westerns, have evolved from 50s versions with actual sci-fi horses etc, to Cowboy Bebop & Outlaw Star, to Pitch Black & Firefly, and now to The Mandalorian, and few dispute that they're all in the Space Western category. Cyberpunk seems to be the sci-fi category which people seem most obsessed with purity tests for.

In all such categorizations, I'd argue that having a spectrum is a better idea than a yes/no. So GitS is maybe a 6/10 with more of a transhumanism focus, while Cyberpunk 2077 looks like it'll be a full 10/10 on the Cyberpunk Richter scale.

[Giggling Ghast]

Here’s an interesting thought: would you consider Robocop part of the cyberpunk genre, as it shares a lot of the same elements (trans-humanism, amoral corporations, rampant criminality)?

[Ramza00]

Two videos that explain Cyberpunk even though they never mention the word Cyberpunk instead just talking about two famous Cyberpunk franchises.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTnl1FVFBw

Westworld - Travels in Hyperreality by KyleKallgrenBHH (https://youtu.be/hHpadBLs3xg)

[LibraryOgre]

Here’s an interesting thought: would you consider Robocop part of the cyberpunk genre, as it shares a lot of the same elements (trans-humanism, amoral corporations, rampant criminality)?

I would say it is very much a Cyberpunk genre, even thought it winds up with a Hollywood, "Maybe things will get better" angle at the end.

One key exchange that marks it as cyberpunk is when they're putting him together:
"Good news. We managed to save his left arm."
(can't remember the next line, something about what are their options and where do they stand)
"Well, he's legally dead, he signed a waiver when he joined to force..."
"Lose the arm."

They're cutting this guy up, testing experimental technologies on him... and deciding to cut off his arm because he can't legally stop them.

[Raimun]

What is the basic tenets of cyberpunk?


There should be cyberarms.



When you look at cyberpunk, what do you think of?


Cyberarms.



What scenes are quintessential to cyberpunk, and what is it that you would normally never find in Cyberpunk novels?


Depictions of cyberarms are essential. You would never find a total lack of cyberarms.



What are the defining attributes of a cyberpunk world?

People with cyberarms.

[DavidSh]

The quintessential cyberpunk scene is when you go to the black market surgeon to install an illegal silicon chip into your brain, and the surgeon betrays you one way or another.

[HandofShadows]

Harrison Ford started as a government agent in Blade Runner, which is arguably the seminal mainstream cyberpunk piece - though he basically goes rogue at the end, in the first GitS movie (not the show - though I actually preferred the show), doesn't she basically go rogue at the end and merge with the AI?


The Major is officially rouge, but unofficial not. Section 9 knows she is still alive and probably other high level sections of the govt know as well.

[Florian]

Harrison Ford started as a government agent in Blade Runner, which is arguably the seminal mainstream cyberpunk piece - though he basically goes rogue at the end, in the first GitS movie (not the show - though I actually preferred the show), doesn't she basically go rogue at the end and merge with the AI?


Though of course, like all such categorizations, it's pretty subjective. And it's kinda weird how some sci-fi categories like Cyberpunk feel like they need to freeze in place with the 80's/90's vibe, while others such as Space Westerns, have evolved from 50s versions with actual sci-fi horses etc, to Cowboy Bebop & Outlaw Star, to Pitch Black & Firefly, and now to The Mandalorian, and few dispute that they're all in the Space Western category. Cyberpunk seems to be the sci-fi category which people seem most obsessed with purity tests for.

In all such categorizations, I'd argue that having a spectrum is a better idea than a yes/no. So GitS is maybe a 6/10 with more of a transhumanism focus, while Cyberpunk 2077 looks like it'll be a full 10/10 on the Cyberpunk Richter scale.

It´s actually not that weird.

Think about it: Up until the end of the 90s, we actually had three major counter culture movements: Hippie, Punk and Goth. After that? Nothing, or not anything relevant. Skaters, ravers, emos and such lacked the social impact to form counter cultures of their own, being too much focussed on simply having fun. Ok, totally politically incorrect, but even skinheads used to be some kind of counter culture, even if a very negative one.

Well, counter culture is one of the main aspects of cyberpunk, especially the novels. But we don't have any contemporary kind of counter culture right now. Incidentally, that's the same problem that Film Noir had to tackle. The protagonists are loners, outcasts and such, with a very specific reason behind it. For Film Noir, that reason quite often was the background of the Great War, turning men not into heroes, but simply damaged goods. for Cyberpunk, it was being losers of capitalism, petty criminals, drug users and such.

[Tyndmyr]

What is the basic tenets of cyberpunk?

When you look at cyberpunk, what do you think of?

What scenes are quintessential to cyberpunk, and what is it that you would normally never find in Cyberpunk novels?

What are the defining attributes of a cyberpunk world?

Sci-fi is looking ahead at our future in admiration, hope and wonder.

Cyberpunk is looking ahead at our future and silently screaming until the ennui takes us.

This manifests as a hodgepodge of rules from both sci-fi and noir. The protaganist is almost always adept at the technical skills of this new world, but very often is not well rewarded for it. The ones on top are those in positions of corporate authority with piles of money, not usually those who get things done. This doesn't mean they're evil...most cyberpunk isn't selling the idea that life would be wonderful if not for an evil dude on top...life is simply monocrome and weighed down by the banalities of humans adapting to a life driven by technology. Computers and displays become cheap and omnipresent? They get used to track people and serve them ads, not just by one person, but by everyone.

The protaganist is basically always called from his fairly humdrum life as a result of involvement in some great tech sea change, and has a wild adventure, but ultimately is not significantly bettered for it. Much sci-fi and fantasy has a similar start, but usually has a far better state of affairs by the work's end, but cyberpunk stays pretty close to noir rules here. There's a massive mixing of cultures, with distinctly different resteraunts, advertisements, etc all existing side by side, but the protaganist usually doesn't identify strongly with any of them, being instead a product of the mingling of them all together.

The super rich and ultra poor exist in the same world, often not terribly far apart, yet experiencing life in a very different way. The environment is almost entirely urban, and it's a world in which environmental efforts generally didn't work out well. People are frequently treated en masse, with literal herds of consumers walking about, and individualism, while it remains, is in something of a struggle to continue to exist. The protaganist is almost always representative of this, highly valuing their independence, and having something of their own goals and dreams...yet almost invariably ends up working for the continuance of the machine of society.

[Florian]

So what about stories like Ghost in the Shell, where the protagonists are essentially the one usually portrayed as bad guys in other Cyberpunk stories since they are essentially a militarized police—not privatized though—even if dysfunctions in society (high crime rate, refugees from turmoil being exploited, or much of protagonists also dealing with inept government) are pointed out.

Ok, I must admit that the initial Ghost in the Shell movie didn't impress me all that much back then. Stand Alone Complex 1 and 2, tho? That was pretty thorough world building and a showcase for deep storytelling.

That said, I tend to fully understand the problem with it. "Classic" cyberpunk has some form of established counter culture the protagonist belongs to. While it is not established as "good", the antagonists themselves are not portrayed as "evil", while their main agents might qualify for it. There is sorta-kinda positive message here: Change is possible, even while the initial heralds of change are deeply flawed.

Japanese cyberpunk is an entirely different beast, because it discards counter culture and deals with mainstream culture and how to change that from within.

[Tyndmyr]

. "Classic" cyberpunk has some form of established counter culture the protagonist belongs to.

I would disagree with that. Blade Runner is pretty much as cyberpunk as it gets, and Deckard isn't counter culture. Same same Snow Crash, Robocop....a lot of the defining works lack this feature.

Even when they *do* belong to or join a counter culture, such as in The Matrix, they almost invariably end up working for the machine all the same.

[CharonsHelper]

It´s actually not that weird.

Think about it: Up until the end of the 90s, we actually had three major counter culture movements: Hippie, Punk and Goth. After that? Nothing, or not anything relevant. Skaters, ravers, emos and such lacked the social impact to form counter cultures of their own, being too much focussed on simply having fun. Ok, totally politically incorrect, but even skinheads used to be some kind of counter culture, even if a very negative one.

Well, counter culture is one of the main aspects of cyberpunk, especially the novels. But we don't have any contemporary kind of counter culture right now. Incidentally, that's the same problem that Film Noir had to tackle. The protagonists are loners, outcasts and such, with a very specific reason behind it. For Film Noir, that reason quite often was the background of the Great War, turning men not into heroes, but simply damaged goods. for Cyberpunk, it was being losers of capitalism, petty criminals, drug users and such.

I'd argue that part of the reason there hasn't been as large of a "counter-culture" movement since the 90s is, at least in part, because the internet has so fractured the culture that there isn't any sort of monolithic primary culture to be counter against.

[Florian]

I'd argue that part of the reason there hasn't been as large of a "counter-culture" movement since the 90s is, at least in part, because the internet has so fractured the culture that there isn't any sort of monolithic primary culture to be counter against.

The internet doesn't have anything to do with it.

Remember the Cold War, especially what was going on in the "frontline countries"? In a sense, that was actually a pretty glorious time. Locked in a conflict of systems, countries had to prove that they could harness the power of their respective system, while managing to keep the negative aspects as harmless as possible. That also means that our respective system were up to debate and this is the reason counter cultures could flourish. Nowadays, the debate is locked, or rather, it is treated like it is a finished thing.

The 80s saw a certain push, championed be Reagon and Thatcher. The 90s saw euphoria, mistaking the "fall" of the CCCP as a "win", instead of their "loss", the zero years then saw a return of that push we already had once, for similar reasons.

[Florian]

I would disagree with that. Blade Runner is pretty much as cyberpunk as it gets, and Deckard isn't counter culture. Same same Snow Crash, Robocop....a lot of the defining works lack this feature.

Even when they *do* belong to or join a counter culture, such as in The Matrix, they almost invariably end up working for the machine all the same.

*Laugh*

You know that you list stuff that entered the Mainstream way after the fact, right? Snow Crash is so long down the road, it is often regarded as a caricature of "Neuromantics".

[Ramza00]

I'd argue that part of the reason there hasn't been as large of a "counter-culture" movement since the 90s is, at least in part, because the internet has so fractured the culture that there isn't any sort of monolithic primary culture to be counter against.

This is a theme in Cyberpunk though some emphasize it to the main theme and some emphasize it to a secondary or tertiary theme :smalltongue: It is connected to the punk aspect of Cyberpunk and Modernism vs Postmodernism stuff that it is better not to get into here.


I'd argue that part of the reason there hasn't been as large of a "counter-culture" movement since the 90s is, at least in part, because the internet has so fractured the culture that there isn't any sort of monolithic primary culture to be counter against.


The internet doesn't have anything to do with it.

Remember the Cold War, especially what was going on in the "frontline countries"? In a sense, that was actually a pretty glorious time. Locked in a conflict of systems, countries had to prove that they could harness the power of their respective system, while managing to keep the negative aspects as harmless as possible. That also means that our respective system were up to debate and this is the reason counter cultures could flourish. Nowadays, the debate is locked, or rather, it is treated like it is a finished thing.

The 80s saw a certain push, championed be Reagon and Thatcher. The 90s saw euphoria, mistaking the "fall" of the CCCP as a "win", instead of their "loss", the zero years then saw a return of that push we already had once, for similar reasons.

Sidenote remember Cyberpunk as a genre was birthed in the 60s and it was not birthed just in the US but also in other countries simultaneously. Yes it became far more popular in the 80s, but you have to look at things that are shared by all countries that had Cyberpunk stories, and across decades to get the meta-category instead of sub-categories part of a larger family. Cyberpunk is not an 80s or 90s thing, it is a genre that has changed due to specific events but it also transcend specific events for it is 5+ decades old now.

[Florian]

This is a theme in Cyberpunk though some emphasize it to the main theme and some emphasize it to a secondary or tertiary theme

And that is funny as hell.

To use something current as an example, cyberpunk holds the position that Extinction Rebellion is right, then you have people arguing that Fridays for Future is already too extreme .... and agree on it.

[Florian]

Sidenote remember Cyberpunk as a genre was birthed in the 60s and it was not birthed just in the US but also in other countries simultaneously. Yes it became far more popular in the 80s, but you have to look at things that are shared by all countries that had Cyberpunk stories, and across decades to get the meta-category instead of sub-categories part of a larger family. Cyberpunk is not an 80s or 90s thing, it is a genre that has changed due to specific events but it also transcend specific events for it is 5+ decades old now.

True.

But you avoid talking about the core, the heart here.

[Ramza00]

True.

But you avoid talking about the core, the heart here.

Because I do not want to write an essay here. :smallsmile:

Cyberpunk has the punk aspect which is trying to find satisfaction while simultaneously feeling dissatisfaction at the hegemonic default.


It is a genre that embraces hat there is no singular "meta-narrative" and when there is a meta-narrative it is used to control people. It can in one story being examining the dysoptic structure that creates people (and since no dystopia is the same you can have very different stories) or it can be a person moving through the story, moving through the structure with less emphasis on examining the culture that birthed the story. It can be a story about a person waking up, and their companion is a dog who loves them, they go to work and have a horrible day, and then the story ends with them returning home and at least their dog still loves them.


Cyberpunk is not one thing but many things, but those many things have "family resemblances" where you can-NOT describe a single thing that unites them. It is like trying to describe what is "healthy" one does not try to list things like your fat content, or your blood pressure when you are describing the concept of health vs unhealthy.

Of course one can explain what Cyberpunk has in common with its family resemblances, but that will not be a single line or two but instead an essay. :smalltongue:

[Yora]

I had never thought of Robocop as cyberpunk, but now that it is mentioned I would absolutely say it is. I think it does not quite match the usual visual conventions, but whwn you look at all the elements, it does check a good majority of the cyberpunk boxes.

One work that I really feel captures all the aspects of cyberpunk is the game Mirror's Edge, which just happens to not have a single piece of futuristic tech. So there really is nothing cyber about it.
But the story, tone, and aesthetics are all very pure cyberpunk anyway. Even though its visually completely dominated by pure clean white, a bright blue sky, and brutally glaring sunlight. It doesn't have the rainy streets of a filthy city at night, but the clean beightness is another representation of corruption and opression. No punks allowed in this dystopian hellhole.

Another work that I think was not mentioned here yet is the classic movie Metropolis. It's almost a hundred years old by now, but it has all the elements of cyberpunk, except for digital communication. Metropolis does not just check all the boxes, it wrote the checklist:
Corrupt rich elites in their ultra skyscrapers, exploited regular people living in their shadows in squallor, androids, cybernetic arms, japanese nightclubs. Blade Runner really just updated the visuals to the 80s.

[Eldan]

Oh yeah. Fritz Lang absolutely invented the visual style and world background for Cyberpunk. Half of sci-fi, really.

People have mentioned Snow Crash. Snow Crash was written in 1992. And quite clearly a lot of it is parody. Heck, there's that entire scene in the beginning where a gangster goes into an illegal body mod shop to buy a "skull gun", which is not only a phenominally stupid idea and doesn't really work, but also entirely played for laughs.

[Florian]

Dunno about "corruption" being such a central issue, if at all.

Cyberpunk is very much about the inherent flaws of capitalism unchecked and of the downside of free markets. I wouldn't really call it "corrupt" when there's a very clear-cut playbook that details exactly what will happen, why and how it will come to pass.

In my opinion, Gibson was actually the best writer for this, as he made no fuss about that stuff and simply integrated it into the background of his stories. Snow Crash is interesting, as it is a parody of the exact same tropes and ideas, as such, putting all that full center of the story.


Just thinking aloud a bit: A bit further up, there was talk as to why cyberpunk often carries that 80s/90s vibe. I think that is partially because we've progressed too far towards the end point of capitalism, either making a lot of concepts/tropes meaningless, or force us to insert "retro stuff" to recreate the initial concept/trope.

I think "hacking" is a good example for this. Part of cyberpunk is about the unchecked development and spread of technology without any thought on the damage that can bring and how that can be avoided/mitigated. The counter point being that "the street will find a use for it", turning the same technology around as a means of resistance beyond what the original inventors intended it for.

Take the Internet as an example: Way back, there was so much hope that this will strengthen liberal societies, push democracy, foster ... ah, I could go on, but what we have is Facebook and 4Chan, which are basically the polar opposite.

It´s sad that we so often see the tropes of "Matrix" and "Deckers" come up, while we're way beyond that now. "Inception" and "Altered Carbon" (The novel, not Netflix), tho?

[Florian]

People have mentioned Snow Crash. Snow Crash was written in 1992. And quite clearly a lot of it is parody. Heck, there's that entire scene in the beginning where a gangster goes into an illegal body mod shop to buy a "skull gun", which is not only a phenominally stupid idea and doesn't really work, but also entirely played for laughs.

Snow Crash is special for a reason. A lot of stuff and aesthetic started with Neuromancer and Snow Crash brought this particular development to a logical end point, in a sense, offering conclusion.

Think about it: In Neuromancer, Case is a "Hacker". The Matrix is basically the only space where the "outlaws" are ahead of the corporations in any meaningful way. Played straight, you get something like Ghost in the Shell. Motoko is often referenced as being classified as "Wizard-Level Hacker". While the GitS Matrix is way more sophisticated, it follows the same concept that it is more or less the last space of freedom because it´s beyond the control of tournaments and corporation.

In Snow Crash, Hiro is also a "Hacker", but "The Street" has become entirely meaningless because it became fully commercialized by corporations. There's quite a powerful statement here: Hiro is a "damn good hacker" because he was one of the crew that started their version of the Matrix, so is intimately familiar with the underlying code/structure, but the same crew sold out their creation, getting pretty rich by doing so, with only Hiro refusing for punk reasons (The whole stuff about Da5id).

Neuromancer, Virtual Light and Idoru even more so, started the thing about the sameness that will happen once corporations are powerful enough to replace actual culture. Hilton, Starbucks, Rat Burger (McDonalds), they are powerful enough to dominate any market and replace local players with themselves. The up- and downside of this should be quite obvious.

Snow Crash goes all-out in this with the concept of "Burbclaves". Instead of "just shops", corporations offer entire lifestyles in the form of specialized gated communities.

And so on.

[Florian]

Further thinking aloud:

The Zaibatsu stage. Our concept of free markets is a simple one. It´s basically a Grand Melee of ideas and concepts, with the better ones winning out the conflicts. This should be to our advantages, offering the best product/service for the best price and so on. In truth, that's not how it works, as no corporation has any interest in it. Therefore, the one goal is establishing a monopoly and it´s not reached by being the last one standing after a fierce battle, but rather by swallowing up and incorporating all competitors in the field. Zaibatsu are something based on japanese history. As I understand it, they were wholly family-owned businesses that managed the same feat.

Death of the "american dream". No matter what you do, no brilliant idea/concept, start-up, whatever, has any chance to enter the actual market and see whether it can compete. The gap has simply grown to large to be bridged in any way. The main actors have grown to be so huge and domineering, that the only chance you have is to sell out to them to raise the kind of funding that is needed to go up against them.

Sarariman. Actually, it means "Salary Man". The only way to be inside the system is to bow your head and get employed by one of the corporations. Either that, or you are entirely outside the system.

The cult of self-improvement. So, as established, only way for there to have something like "a good life" is to be a sarariman for one of the zaibatsu. Well, competition for jobs is quite harsh, so you need to be the "best you that you can be". Meaning that you have invest heavily in yourself, hoping you gain it back, starting with fitness, yoga, meditation, going further with school and education, escalating to the point that you willingly have surgery on those boobs and ass, escalating a bit more to get that brain done, your optics enhanced, your reflexes and pheromones wired/altered and so on.

Disruption is the only way. Basically, every market will reach the saturation phase come time. Basically, once everyone owns a car, the need to buy further cars ceases and car sales will drop. The solution is to either speed up the rate something new is turned out, or attack the fundamentals of something already existing.

[Eldan]

Don't forget the drugs under self-improvement. Starting with ritalin, meth and coke, and ending with electrochemical brain enhancement. Can't possibly keep that company job if you can onl work 16 hours a day.

[Tyndmyr]

*Laugh*

You know that you list stuff that entered the Mainstream way after the fact, right? Snow Crash is so long down the road, it is often regarded as a caricature of "Neuromantics".

If one were to pick the most influential cyberpunk book and movie respectively, it'd probably be Snow Crash and Bladerunner. I could see a case being made for other books, such as Neuromancer being pretty influential as well...but those are largely similar. The protaganist may be outside the system initially, but a tale of outsiders bringing down the system it ain't.

You could also poo poo The Matrix as being later, and look at say Jonny Mnemonic as being an earlier version of it, but The Matrix is far more polished and influential. It's iconic in a way the other film isn't. It's the finished product, the whole show.

Cyberpunk may respect individuality as a value, but it is not optimistic for what the future has in store for it.

If we're looking at influences such as Metropolis, I'd also suggest looking at Dark City. It isn't exactly Cyberpunk, but it's certainly adjacent.


Oh yeah. Fritz Lang absolutely invented the visual style and world background for Cyberpunk. Half of sci-fi, really.

People have mentioned Snow Crash. Snow Crash was written in 1992. And quite clearly a lot of it is parody. Heck, there's that entire scene in the beginning where a gangster goes into an illegal body mod shop to buy a "skull gun", which is not only a phenominally stupid idea and doesn't really work, but also entirely played for laughs.

There is absolutely satire in it. Everything from literary conventions(named the dude Hiro Protaganist, lol) to capitalism gets pretty viciously skewered. Most of the book is mocking something. However, it is not a comedy.

The skull gun thing you may be thinking about from Diamond Age, the author's kind-of sequel. Snow Crash begins with enthusiastic pizza delivery.



Just thinking aloud a bit: A bit further up, there was talk as to why cyberpunk often carries that 80s/90s vibe. I think that is partially because we've progressed too far towards the end point of capitalism, either making a lot of concepts/tropes meaningless, or force us to insert "retro stuff" to recreate the initial concept/trope.

Not merely capitalism. Most of the stuff is there. People distrusting each other in public, wearing masks on public transit, crazy tech.... I literally just watched a demo on a brain/computer integration device being tested on pigs last night while there was a tornado outside. The world has simply become too cyberpunk for it to feel like fiction.

[t209]

One work that I really feel captures all the aspects of cyberpunk is the game Mirror's Edge, which just happens to not have a single piece of futuristic tech. So there really is nothing cyber about it.
I think this also apply to Demolition Man, which wasn’t surprising since the producer and the writers said that they wanted to subvert the “high crime, grim, and dirty dystopia” common in 90’s and 80’s (Escape from New York, Escape from LA, and cyberpunk genre) by showing a clean, well-ordered, and bright future of San Angeles as utopia-but-dystopia.

[Lo'Tek]

When you look at cyberpunk, what do you think of?
Gibson, Favela and Squatting. Here in Germany "punk" has always had a lot to do with "squatting" and while a lot of "Futurism" has these well planned sleek designs, cyberpunk favors a chaotic architecture that grows naturally. Cyberpunk looks at the pretentious designs made by (retro-)futurists, then points to the slums of today and says: 60% of the population lives in poverty. The future is like that but with more electronics and cybernetics.

William Gibsons second trilogy features a shanty town build on the Oakland Bay Bridge in San Francisco after it was closed to the public due to being run down and damaged and no one paying for a renewing or destroying it. But think less "tents below a bridge like hobos in 2020" and more like Favelas build on top.

In Johnny Mnemonic there was a shanty town build below some geodesic domes, once a big project planned to experiment with space engineering to be sold it as high value air conditioned living space, the whole project was ill conceived: planning mistakes, faulty technologies, bodged-up construction, over-promising designs and corrupt handling created an unfinished abandoned ruin that got taken over by those who could never have afforded to rent even a small apartment there.

In Mona Lisa Overdrive we meet Slick Henry who is squatting in Dog Solitude, a large, poisoned expanse of deserted factories and dumps, building robots and using energy another inhabitant has siphoned from the grid while hacking some industrial smart meters so the electric company doesn't come and investigate.

In Neuromancer the protagonists fly to Zion, a space station run by pot smoking rastafarians. Basically some bankiers noticed that space is not very regulated which opens some interesting opportunities and started building hotels, casinos and other recreational entertainment, as well as their own permanent residence there. That even worked out, more or less. However they moved so much stuff up there, that it created a freight harbor and "temporary worker settlement" with lots of greasy, dirty, heavy machinery. See the Tessier-Ashpool Clan wasn't running some ISS style project build in laboratories and moved by NASA finest. They hired people who had the money sent to their families and didn't complain about health and safety violations. The kind of people who build a tourist resort in a third world countries nowadays. Anyway that temporary settlement has become permanent and there are some makers there who have a livelihood and an interest in keeping it habitable, but most of it... let me cite an article about Kibera: "There is lots of garbage everywhere and the hygienic conditions are awful."

Cyberpunk is the idea that we manage to colonize space ... and then have a slum there, too.

Kwoloon Walled City
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4jAwPdCMw
Brazilian Favelas
- https://www.panoramas.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/articles/favelas.jpg
- https://www.efe.com/efe/english/life/prestes-maia-iconic-symbol-for-squatter-occupation-in-latin-america/50000263-3612130
German Punk
- https://www.lto.de/fileadmin/_processed_/f/e/csm_rigaerstr_620_ce0a51c307.jpg
- https://www.fotocommunity.de/photo/st-pauli-hafenstrasse-rueckseite-bernh-breiterfluss/37133967
- https://cms.hostelworld.com/hwblog/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/04/@amogh_meshram_Berlin.jpg
Alita, Battle Angel
- https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2019/02/final-film-stills-alita-battle-angel_dezeen_2364_col_6.jpg
- https://cdn.onebauer.media/one/empire-images/features/5b5605c8e6cc081b1bada1f7/alita-8.jpg

I could get into many other aspects, why i think that Neon-Tokyo and its chaotic growth of blinking lights trying to advertise brands or nearby shops are as much part of cyberpunk as are retro-futuristic arcologies and brutalist concrete temples of corporate bureaucracy or how i visited the regional headquarter of an international corporation last year and was both impressed and terrified by the number of flags with their logo and screens looping brand advertisment ....

but this post is about slums, squatting and a bit of punk culture and is by far long enough already ;-)

Edit: Budapest Ruin Bars!
- https://i1.wp.com/thetumblingnomads.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ruin-Bars-Cover-scaled.jpg
- https://budapestconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/szimpla-10.jpg
Very important part of the punk counter-culture is the idea that a thousand people writing their tag on the wall is an artistic improvement.

[Florian]

Some more idle musings: How would I design a "generic" cyberpunk world?

The continents are still divided up into individual nation states, quite a lot of them even democracies. The initial boost in welfare brought by globalization has stopped quite a while ago, the, say, 5 most powerful nation states have switched to full-on imperial mode, but feel under siege nonetheless. Whole regions have devolved into failed states and constant civil war, generating wave after wave of refugees.

The internet became fully integrated with the physical world. There's no place without the equivalent of wifi coverage and next to nothing that isn't connected to it - the concept of an offline mode is absurd. That also strongly affected the concept of media as a whole. With the ability to fully record human senses and emotions also comes the ability to enter one of the recordings and get to "be there", instead of just getting data transferred in a form. Instead of watching the news or a sitcom, you get to be right in the middle of it.

That gave religion a powerful boost when someone found out how to create the feeling of shared community. Masses of humanity use the "Choir" to link into a shared feeling of rapture each day.

Corporations are a curious affair. As a result of some decades of increasing economic and financial crisis, the big players initiated massive stock buy backs, but also massive stock swaps to get a hold on their supply chains and major resources. This had two massive side effects. Only few had the power to hold on to their stocks and now are more or less in control. As this happened on all relevant levels, instead of some kind of "mega corporation", these conglomerates rather follow a more feudal structure with the equivalent of vassals and lieges, based on how stock is distributed.

Now the corp leaders understood, that even while their respective conglomerates had reached global size, their employees numbered more than citizens of some nation states combined and their revenues often beat tax income of basically all nation states, they didn't want to become the equivalent of one.

Most of humanity is now more or less the equivalent of indentured servants, without realizing it. They have come to internalize "you have to spent coin to earn coin" as the fundamental truth.Part of that has to do with the internet.

A short detour: Basically, a "Green Deal" had to happen and the corporations were the major force behind it. Energy is now from regenerating sources, H2 is the main replacement for fossil fuels, the high orbit is full of "solar farms" with the equivalent of massive "laser canons" as means to transfer the collected power down to the planet. The reason for this is simple: The energy demand of the internet grew on a massive scale, the core infrastructure alone needing as much power as the nation states of a smaller continent combined.

Advances in cybernetics played a major role here, too. Huge "data farms" proved to be massive energy hogs, but could work with rather cheap hardware. Then some brilliant engineer took a closer look at how Bitcoins and such worked, how the recording and sharing of senses/emotions work and came up with the solution to just use humanity as a whole as a massive decentralized data processing structure. You just had to connect every brain....

[Asmotherion]

Cyberpunk is a genre of futuristic/dystopian fiction where runaway capitalism and technology has made the world a terrible place. It generally incorporates transhumanist elements but played for horror as they are used to dehumanize/control the people rather than unlock their potential. Other common traits are huge corporations operating at state-level with their own army and propaganda machines.

I'd argue the most core concept is a near-apocaliptic or post apocaliptic world were technology has developed expotentially, and morals standards have either vanished or transmuted into something unrecognisable by a modern person.

So, in the perspective of someone who lived a centuary ago, our modern times would be kinda cyber-punk in nature in a way.

An other core theme is ghetos, outcasts and in general the less prosperous, non-sheltered aspects of society. You don't see a cyber-punk setting focusing it's story on the elite, rather than the underdogs of society.

Cyborgs, telepaths etc are used as a narative tool, not so much to depict the future discoveries and inventions, but more to give an alegory of the dependance of mankind on technology; often, some downside is given, usually in the form of a scarce resource, to further focus on control of society by the government; A telepath may need some pills or loose their mind, a cyborg may need a special power source. All things that the government controls, and makes the person in question dependent on it for it's suply, or face grave consequances.

[Florian]

Part 2:

The escalating conflict between country and city brought a lot of nations states near to their breaking point. New technical advances always seemed to favor cities, like the huge network of hyperlook stations linking them, entirely bypassing the countryside and so on.

While there is the simple truth that the population has to be fed, the other truth is, that raw resources, counting agriculture amongst those, have entirely lost their economic worth.

Most nation states took to one form of drastic measure or the other, mainly turning anything outside of the cities into state-owned land and minders, farmers and such into state employees, or using convicts for those jobs.

A quirky development was the emergence of "new natives". Some people left the cities, occupied a piece of land and tried to build an entirely autarky existence, others formed up into sorta-kinda nomads, with caravans of motor homes.

Cities became the places of hope and despair in equal measures.Most city governments, even those from the oldest, most antique ones, came to realize that the need to house millions of people far outweighed the need to preserve history. In a bold move, major reconstructions were given the green light and the face of cities changed forever. Traffic was more or less entirely moved underground or way up into the air.
Beautiful gated communities stand side by side with vertical slums and corporate arcologies.

Then, there are the refugees. Millions upon millions of them flood the cities each year. Their camps make up entire suburbs, their parallel economy turned parks into markets, apartments into shops, clubs, drug dens, discos.

As they are not citizens, they're entirely cut of, establishing "black links" to the internet or hosting parallel structures.

And so on...

[BisectedBrioche]

Cyberpunk:

Capitalism controls technology; so those with money control it
Corporations become wealthy enough to have the authority of government
Modifying the human body is only possible with capitalists' tech, ergo unless you go out of your way to avoid anything too intrusive, capitalists can take control of your very body (some simplify this with the Cybernetics Eats Your Soul (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CyberneticsEatYourSoul) trope).
Often the story will be about the working class retaining some small amount of freedom


It's basically a critique of how technological progress is good, but capitalism will ruin it by allowing the 1% to take the productivity and turn it in their bottom line (much in the same way the average menial worker is many times more efficient in their work than a century ago, but employers still pay them as little as possible to work the same hours and keep the extra profits for themselves).

If you take the view those with power (or with some power) can fix the system (or at least be benevolent), you get post cyberpunk. If you use alternate histories instead of future tech, you get the various other punks (steampunk, dieselpunk, etc), if people take control of technology and use it for the common good, you get Solarpunk.

[dps]

I had never thought of Robocop as cyberpunk, but now that it is mentioned I would absolutely say it is. I think it does not quite match the usual visual conventions, but whwn you look at all the elements, it does check a good majority of the cyberpunk boxes.

One work that I really feel captures all the aspects of cyberpunk is the game Mirror's Edge, which just happens to not have a single piece of futuristic tech. So there really is nothing cyber about it.
But the story, tone, and aesthetics are all very pure cyberpunk anyway. Even though its visually completely dominated by pure clean white, a bright blue sky, and brutally glaring sunlight. It doesn't have the rainy streets of a filthy city at night, but the clean beightness is another representation of corruption and opression. No punks allowed in this dystopian hellhole.

Another work that I think was not mentioned here yet is the classic movie Metropolis. It's almost a hundred years old by now, but it has all the elements of cyberpunk, except for digital communication. Metropolis does not just check all the boxes, it wrote the checklist:
Corrupt rich elites in their ultra skyscrapers, exploited regular people living in their shadows in squallor, androids, cybernetic arms, japanese nightclubs. Blade Runner really just updated the visuals to the 80s.

Another movie that, in retrospect, if isn't cyberpunk, at least has a lot of cyberpunk elements is Soylent Green.

[Florian]

Another movie that, in retrospect, if isn't cyberpunk, at least has a lot of cyberpunk elements is Soylent Green.

Don´t mistake "Dystopia" with "Cyberpunk", as happened already with Metropolis.

[dps]

Don´t mistake "Dystopia" with "Cyberpunk", as happened already with Metropolis.

Yeah, but Soylent Green isn't just dystopia, it's a dystopia set in the near future that has a high tech level, corporations with a lot of power, and extreme social stratification, and even a bit of transhumanism (at least, I think the stuff surrounding the death of E.G. Robinson's character counts as transhumanism).

On a complete side note, this was Robinson's final role. He knew he was dying, but no one else involved with the movie did, and his character's death scene was the last scene he ever filmed. Which I find kind of spooky.

[Lo'Tek]

"Neuromantics".
Interesting word. Is there a relation between Cyberpunk and Dark Romanticism?

In 1983 Bruce Sterling started to write the Cheap Truth fanzine in which he gave an overview of recent SF stories. In Zine 2 he writes about Gibsons Burning Chrome (1982): "This is the shape for science fiction in the 1980s: fast moving, sharply extrapolated, technology literate and as brilliant and coherent as a laser". Burning Chrome then won a Nebula award. Sterling viciously attacked the Science Fiction and Fantasy literature of the late 70 and early 80s as being boring, run of the mill, following literary formalities and being so far off the technological realities they are pretty much magic make believe.

In 1986 Michael Swanwick wrote “A User's Guide to the Postmoderns”, in part as a response to Sterlings mad ramblings. He categorizes the SF writers in Humanists, who prefereed characterization and traditional prose, and Cyberpunk, which focused on energetic, intense dataflood.


most influential cyberpunk books
I like to add The Illuminatus Trilogy (1969-71) by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson on that pile, or better, under it. It is not in the genre, but without it the 1980 science fiction might be very different. The book is a major piece of neo-anarchist culture and was big the 80s hacker scene.


Think about it: In Neuromancer, Case is a "Hacker". The Matrix is basically the only space where the "outlaws" are ahead of the corporations in any meaningful way ... In Snow Crash, Hiro is also a "Hacker", but "The Street" has become entirely meaningless because it became fully commercialized by corporations.
I don't agree with that: Gibsons Cyberspace is as locked down and commercialized by the corps as meatspace. But like meatspace it is decentralized, fragmented and there are grey areas and black markets. Some systems are more protected (banks) and others are less protected (gardening robots). As in "Burning Chrome" the people in Neuromancer (1984) spend a good part of the story preparing their heist: Case has skill, but even he can't just walk into some high security zone. There is actually a very important point in the book about the cyberspace equivalent of having a gun pointed at ones head, but i don't want to spoil too much for those who haven't read it but are somehow reading this. Let me just say: any type of crime requires to be, in some sense, ahead of those who enforce the law, because otherwise the crime would not be possible and one would just get arrested trying it.

There is a point to be made about the aheadness of outlaws in the Technomancer story in Count Zero (1986), but that is another book ;-)

A bit of context for the uninitiated: the Sprawl Series has 10 stories, each focusing on one person, that play in the same world. They meet each other and other figures of the world and their stories tie in with each other. It starts with "Burning Chrome" (Jack), and "Johnny Mnemonic" (Johnny) both short stories that happen before "Neuromancer" (Case) and have backstory for some people Case interacts with. "Count Zero" has three plot lines: (Turner) and (Bobby) start a new saga, (Marly) ties it in with Neuromancer. "Mona Lisa Overdrive" has four stories that continue the second saga (Henry), (Kumiko), (Mona) and (Angie) and have some bits of epilogue for characters in the earlier books. Looking at the patterns Kumiko is the hook for a new saga, but the last book is the weakest of the series and Gibson then took a step back and wrote a steampunk novella together with Sterling before starting a new series.

If one has to pick one book of the sprawl series, it is Neuromancer, and if one can only recommend one book of the whole genre, then that one is obviously a good pick as well.


If one were to pick the most influential cyberpunk book and movie respectively, it'd probably be Snow Crash and Bladerunner. I could see a case being made for other books, such as Neuromancer being pretty influential as well...but those are largely similar.
Neuromancer has those dark romantic elements of escapism, love, depression, drugs and insanity. That works very well when confronted with rampant capitalism creating poverty and industrialized rape. Snow Crash (1992) wants to be more upbeat and between mocking kafkaesque forms of capitalism and descriptions of the cadavers of the poor piling up like trash that leaves an almost sociopathic aftertaste of disconnectedness. Well that is cyberpunk for you xD Neuromancer is a film noir, Snow Crash is an action-flick with lots of narration. They are actually making it into a movie and i bet many people will be very annoyed because a lot of details about Enki and Babylon will end on some corporate cutting room floor for being too cerebral.


Snow Crash is special for a reason. A lot of stuff and aesthetic started with Neuromancer and Snow Crash brought this particular development to a logical end point, in a sense, offering conclusion.
Stephenson earned a place in the Cyberpunks hall of fame for his works, i would not deny that, but i do not consider Snow Crash a well rounded perfect form of the genre. I read it, i like it but I honestly don't see it on that pedestal. (Edit: yes i saw the anarcho-capitalisms final form aspect in Florians post, but i am going to ignore it.)
Maybe i am giving Stephenson too less credit? Is he responsible for the jacket wearing, wakizashi bearing, skateboard riding too cool for school "rebel without a cause" form of cyberpunk? No one in their right mind would want to be a rundown burned out Gentleman Loser. Maybe Snow Crash simply is a more palatable to a mass audience of young men because "Hiro Protagonist" is hip and easy to identify with.

There is another, far more influential book, that made that type of cyberpunk popular: Shadowrun (1989)

When that copyrighted mix of high-fantasy + cyberpunk hit the tabletop gaming stores the FASA Corporation franchised the setting out to multiple authors. In 1990 "Into the Shadows" and "Never Deal With A Dragon" were released and over fifty books followed, some of which are good, not even counting the RPG, just the novellas. If those fall into the cyberpunk genre, then the single most influential cyberpunk book ever was the first Shadowrun rulebook.

Personally i see them as different genres and for me that means


What are the defining attributes of a cyberpunk world?

there is no magic, only technology


- - - edit - - -
- obviously not a complete list of defining attributes, just an opinion.
- there is a paragraph about Shadowrun directly above that sentence.
- i know Clarkes 3rd law, but distinguishing words strengthens their meaning.
- it was not my intention to claim that anything which has magic can not be cyberpunk.
- more like: on the "spectrum of hard sci-fi to space fantasy" cyberpunk is close to realism.
- any definition by exclusion using hard words like "no" and "only" will create harsh reactions.

I should have left it with Sterling:
Cyberpunk is fast moving, sharply extrapolated, technology literate and as brilliant and coherent as a laser

[dps]

there is no magic, only technology

I'd say that's true of cyberpunk, but it's not a sufficient definition--if it were, then The Hunt for Red October would be cyberpunk, which it certainly isn't.

[Lo'Tek]

that was not intended as a complete list xD

[Rynjin]

I'd say that's true of cyberpunk, but it's not a sufficient definition--if it were, then The Hunt for Red October would be cyberpunk, which it certainly isn't.

It's also not true. One of the most prominent cyberpunk settings is the Shadowrun setting, which absolutely has magic.

[Eldan]

Stephenson earned a place in the Cyberpunks hall of fame for his works, i would not deny that, but i don't consider Snow Crash a well rounded perfect form of the genre. I read it, i like it but I honestly don't see it on that pedestal. (Edit: yes i saw the anarcho-capitalisms final form aspect in Florians post, but i am going to ignore it.)
Maybe i am giving Stephenson too less credit? Is he responsible for the trenchcoat wearing, wakizashi bearing, skateboard riding too cool for school "rebel without a cause" form of cyberpunk? No one in their right mind would want to be a rundown burned out Gentleman Loser. Maybe Snow Crash simply is a more palatable to a mass audience of young men because "Hiro Protagonist" is hip and easy to identify with.


No, absolutely not. Snow Crash only came out in '92. The first editions of the RPGs Shadowrun and Cyberpunk* came out a few years before and already had players doing all that ridiculous stuff. And examples in the books. Stephenson is largely parodying that kind of thing by going competely over the top with it.

*I think the first edition was called Cyberpunk 2000, then it became Cyberpunk 2013, then Cyberpunk 2020 and now the CD Projekt Red computer game is called Cyberpunk 2077. The date keeps moving.

[Eldan]

And I would call Shadowrun Urban Fantasy with some Cyberpunk-like elements. It's also far too hopeful to be true Cyberpunk, at least in the newer editions.

[CharonsHelper]

And I would call Shadowrun Urban Fantasy with some Cyberpunk-like elements. It's also far too hopeful to be true Cyberpunk, at least in the newer editions.

Then that makes you the first person I've ever heard of that doesn't consider Shadowrun cyberpunk.

It sounds like you're re-defining what the genre includes on the fly to better fit your definition.

[Florian]

Then that makes you the first person I've ever heard of that doesn't consider Shadowrun cyberpunk.

It sounds like you're re-defining what the genre includes on the fly to better fit your definition.

Consider me the second.

Shadowrun used to be a curious case. On the U.S. side, FASA worked with their authors to advance the meta plot, on the DE side, they worked with FanPro to advance the setting and the rules, but kept both teams strictly separated. That led to a curious situation: The system as published on my side of the pond was way more advanced and the setting more detailed. Stuff that was released under the tag of, say, SR 2.01D was then folded back into the U.S. version of SR2.

That got pretty much scaled-down when SR went to Catalyst. My side of 4.01D and 5.01D is still more advanced because the local team updates the rules to actually work, which is what the U.S. side later publishes as errata, but they are not involved with the setting anymore.

The difference is quite noticeable. While 1st (the edition I started with) and early second were clearly cyberpunk with elves, the U.S. devs wanted to go for the "Grand Epic" relatively early. 4E and onwards really is way more Urban Fantasy with a bit of cyberpunk trappings than anything else.

[druid91]

Basically, the Tag Line for cyberpunk is "High Tech, Low Life" prior, science fiction was all a very clean, very optimistic.

Cyberpunk is the opposite. It's the assertion that the evils of our lives are due to human nature, and that advancing our technology does give good people the means to make things better, it also gives those bad actors the means to make things worse, and often much worse than the good people can make things better.

For example, you add a brain-machine interface to the world. Good people can use it to fix various physical problems with the disabled. And also some jerk could use it to literally read his employees minds and police your thoughts.


And I would call Shadowrun Urban Fantasy with some Cyberpunk-like elements. It's also far too hopeful to be true Cyberpunk, at least in the newer editions.

Eh, it's a fairly even mashup. Also, Cyberpunk doesn't always end up in Despair, some of the classic Cyberpunk stories are fairly hopeful. Though I would agree that late 4e onwards, the story was less about Cyberpunk and more about fantasy invasions from the stars.

[Vahnavoi]

Shadowrun is a fairly plain genre crossover: it is cyberpunk. It is also high fantasy. Due to nature of the former, it naturally blends into urban fantasy. Arguing that it's one but not the others is missing forest for the trees.

The same is true of something like the Matrix franchise. The virtual reality of the Matrix has obvious cyberpunk aesthetic, even if the actual plot segues into post-modern existentialism and religious allegory.

[Lo'Tek]

Then that makes you the first person I've ever heard of that doesn't consider Shadowrun cyberpunk.
It's also not true. One of the most prominent cyberpunk settings is the Shadowrun setting, which absolutely has magic.

As i said: i see Shadowrun as its own genre that is a mix of Cyberpunk and Fantasy

For me Cyberpunk does not include magic, elves and dragons.
Shadowrun includes them, because Shadowrun inherits them from Fantasy.

How about an example: Let's say we meet an elf. Why is the elf an elf?
Shadowrun: because of the magic awakening some metahumans were born as elves
Cyberpunk: because some sub-culture gets plastic surgery to look like elves.
Classic SF : because it came from planet elf

I see it like Bruce Sterling and define cyberpunk as sharply extrapolated and technology literate.
This is not only about magic: any complex form of technobabble can be handwaved as magic.
and yet "Count Zero" (1986) really resonates with me, even if it's a bit thick on the voodoo.

So ... I do not intend to die on this hill ... i am sorry for making a definition by exclusion.
For you Cyberpunk is a vague genre and Shadowrun a setting in it? Have it your way.
I can agree that Cyberpunk is a genre and Shadowrun a setting in it.

[Rynjin]

To me, all genres are inherently pretty vague. You can boil them down to core elements, but ultimately there will be "genre breakers" that are quite obviously part of X genre even though they don't necessarily tick all the boxes, or might tick boxes you otherwise wouldn't expect.

For a quick and easy example, most people classify Star Wars as a sci-fi work, even though the "science" part is dubious at best. People might cheekily call it Space Fantasy or some such instead, since it shares far more DNA with Epic Fantasy works than science fiction...but at the end of the day if you ask most people what the top 10 sci-fi films of all time are, a Star Wars film will be on there somewhere.

Genres are a lot like that old adage about pornography: they might be hard to define, but you know 'em when you see 'em.

[Cikomyr2]

I once asked a few writer friends how they could concisely define Cyberpunk, and the most elegant way we had to express the theme of cyberpunk as a genre is "Fight against the Machine"

The Machine can be capitalist society. Or it can be cybernetics transhumanism. Or it can be artificial intelligence.

[Kitten Champion]

Ultimately I think cyberpunk is --

90% an aesthetic.

5% stories themed around the interpenetration of technology & biology, transhumanism, and concerns about ontological boundaries.

5% political discourse on the disintegration of the State and rise of post-Capitalist corporate supremacy.

You can easily write a cyberpunk story without the visual trappings of cyberpunk, a lot of Philip K. ****'s work could be termed proto-cyberpunk where the themes very run heavy but the technological elements are either secondary or irrelevant. Or the post-cyberpunk stuff, Dark Mirror-esque heightened realities where the specific themes indicative of the genre are explored but it's not taken the whole way to a near-apocalyptic extreme with mega-cities blocking out the sun and katana-wielding Japanese cyborgs everywhere. Lastly, the work might not even involve those speculative technologies at all and simply shows the horrific possibilities of the present, like what Cory Doctorow frequently likes to do.

However, regardless of the above, if one sees the visual cues the are indicative of the cyberpunk aesthetic they'll recognize it as cyberpunk even if it's thematically hollow and largely content in its complacency.

[BisectedBrioche]

To be fair, you could argue that cyberpunk is a very specific dystopian future that seemed plausible in the 80's, and even when it moves with the times, it keeps a few flourishes from then.

After all, the idea of Japan taking over the planet seems a little quaint now (with it no longer being the electronics manufacturing hub it was a few decades ago), but a lot of Cyberpunk doesn't think twice about why angry cyborgs for hire would be called street samurai.

And the idea of cyberspace being a place you can hang around in is just too interesting to ignore, despite bordering on zeerust.

[Florian]

After all, the idea of Japan taking over the planet seems a little quaint now (with it no longer being the electronics manufacturing hub it was a few decades ago), but a lot of Cyberpunk doesn't think twice about why angry cyborgs for hire would be called street samurai.

Gosh, now I'm feeling old.

The thing about Japan has an entirely different background. I don't have a clue whether and how much it changed since back then, haven't been to Japan since the early 2000s, but japanese corporations fostered a corporate culture of absolute loyalty and subservience to the corp.

It´s pretty hard to imagine VW or Google employees wearing a corp uniform, gathering in front of the headquarters each morning to sing the corp anthem, before changing clothing for the mandatory 30 minutes of corp fitness program, naturally, a group activity for all employees.

The term "Street Samurai" is firmly grounded in the punk part of cyberpunk. In a mercenary world, those with honor stand out. He's not a common mercenary, but while his loyalty is up for sale, once bought, h stays loyal to the end.

[Eldan]

It´s pretty hard to imagine VW or Google employees wearing a corp uniform, gathering in front of the headquarters each morning to sing the corp anthem, before changing clothing for the mandatory 30 minutes of corp fitness program, naturally, a group activity for all employees.


Actually... Walmart does that. It's one of the reasons they failed in Germany, no one wanted to work for them.

[CharonsHelper]

For a quick and easy example, most people classify Star Wars as a sci-fi work, even though the "science" part is dubious at best. People might cheekily call it Space Fantasy or some such instead, since it shares far more DNA with Epic Fantasy works than science fiction...but at the end of the day if you ask most people what the top 10 sci-fi films of all time are, a Star Wars film will be on there somewhere.


While a bit off-topic, I consider all sci-fi to be somewhere on the spectrum of hard sci-fi to space fantasy. Star Wars is pretty much the epitome of the space fantasy side of things, while The Martian is on the other extreme of hard sci-fi, where everything makes logical sense based upon what we currently know of science. Most sci-fi is somewhere in the middle, with things like Philip K ****'s and Asimov being rather hard sci-fi, while things like Star Trek are somewhere in the middle. (People could argue all day where exactly something fits on the sliding scale.)

But anyway - I consider space fantasy to be a sub-category of sci-fi rather than its own thing. Most cyberpunk leans a bit towards the hard end of things, where the broad strokes of the technology seems plausible, but exactly how is generally glossed over.

[Florian]

While a bit off-topic

I think it´s a good point. We could take Star Wars and redo it as a WWII movie and it would not gain or lose anything, mainly because it uses trappings, but no exploration happens. We could also take Lord of the Rings and transfer it to WWII and again, nothing much would happen.

We could not do this with, say, Altered Carbon.

[Fyraltari]

Actually... Walmart does that. It's one of the reasons they failed in Germany, no one wanted to work for them.
What the hell? They actually do that?

We could also take Lord of the Rings and transfer it to WWII and again, nothing much would happen.
I mean, you'd have to rework the whole "quest" thing.

[Eldan]

What the hell? They actually do that?

Apparently? At least several German articles about why American supermarkets fail in Europe claimed so.

[LibraryOgre]

there is no magic, only technology

Bulldrek. Clarke's Third Law and a pile of bulldrek.

In Neuromancer, you have Peter Riviera, whose "implants" let him project holograms into people's head, which is only different than a Shadowrun shaman throwing mana illusions because you've put a circuit board on it.

[BisectedBrioche]

Gosh, now I'm feeling old.

The thing about Japan has an entirely different background. I don't have a clue whether and how much it changed since back then, haven't been to Japan since the early 2000s, but japanese corporations fostered a corporate culture of absolute loyalty and subservience to the corp.

It´s pretty hard to imagine VW or Google employees wearing a corp uniform, gathering in front of the headquarters each morning to sing the corp anthem, before changing clothing for the mandatory 30 minutes of corp fitness program, naturally, a group activity for all employees.

The term "Street Samurai" is firmly grounded in the punk part of cyberpunk. In a mercenary world, those with honor stand out. He's not a common mercenary, but while his loyalty is up for sale, once bought, h stays loyal to the end.

But, at the end of the day, the assumption was that Japanese corporate culture would spread because Japan was poised for global domination (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JapanTakesOverTheWorld).

Even The Simpsons had a joke about it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq7wnMvLYg4)

[Dragonus45]

I think Japanese cyberpunk tends to differ from Western cyberpunk as the noir elements are less significant, among other things more endemic of the Japanese experience especially in the 80's.

Japanese cyber punk fiction tends too lean towards Post Cyberpunk, where corporations are often presented as flawed rather then evil and governments as having some degree of agency or power to push back against things. Ghost in the Shell is sort of a quintessential example, where the protagonists are explicitly a government organization which unironically has the best interests of its citizens at heart even when no one else might.

[dps]

Apparently? At least several German articles about why American supermarkets fail in Europe claimed so.

Either those articles were a bunch of B.S., or Walmart does things differently in Germany than they do in the US.

[Florian]

Either those articles were a bunch of B.S., or Walmart does things differently in Germany than they do in the US.

I know a bunch of US companies that tried to enter the EU/DE market and failed miserably.

For example, it was a spectacle watching Stone Brewing trying to enter the EU market by building up a presence in Berlin. In the end, Greg Koch even apologized for not listening to the managers they hired for that venture.

It was basically a textbook example of what happens when you think you know it all and then ignore that different countries have different rules, customs and culture.

IIRC, what happened with Walmart was a bit different. They thought that they can enter a different market while ignoring the rules for that market whole cloth, just by being them and having formed around different rules back in their main country.

We´re still talking about the fear of "japanacorps", tho. I think that Stone is a rather benign example, while something like Uber is not. In the 80s, something like the uniformity of japanese corps was a bit shocking, Uber is what came out of it, a company that actively tries to mould global culture to accept their way.

[dps]

I know a bunch of US companies that tried to enter the EU/DE market and failed miserably.

For example, it was a spectacle watching Stone Brewing trying to enter the EU market by building up a presence in Berlin. In the end, Greg Koch even apologized for not listening to the managers they hired for that venture.

It was basically a textbook example of what happens when you think you know it all and then ignore that different countries have different rules, customs and culture.

IIRC, what happened with Walmart was a bit different. They thought that they can enter a different market while ignoring the rules for that market whole cloth, just by being them and having formed around different rules back in their main country.

We´re still talking about the fear of "japanacorps", tho. I think that Stone is a rather benign example, while something like Uber is not. In the 80s, something like the uniformity of japanese corps was a bit shocking, Uber is what came out of it, a company that actively tries to mould global culture to accept their way.

I'm not denying that companies often fail when trying to enter new markets because they just assume that what worked in their home markets will work everywhere, I'm just saying that the reported Walmart practices of "employees wearing a corp uniform, gathering in front of the headquarters each morning to sing the corp anthem, before changing clothing for the mandatory 30 minutes of corp fitness program, naturally, a group activity for all employees" is a completely inaccurate of how the company does things in the US.

[Eldan]

Found the articles again. Apparently, it wasn't quite singing the corp anthem, but some managers at least tried to get their employees to stand in formation and chant "Walmart, Walmart, Walmart!" repeatedly every morning to get them into the proper spirit of loving their company. Employees repeatedly compared it to Nazi rallies.

This Huff Po article claims similar things at least? (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-did-walmart-leave-ger_b_940542?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAN2T-sDNYTID7eLvHAq-rWt6SJVjxVjS32oMiIyRBnSxMRs8jQTVRhP3f5HhOk6aEAXe-2xWwubgprQuN72C5LmeRx9xhV6Eu7-gPaY2ox6SNbymcLsIxIL-wMILm0Fz1_7X8W-ovttm5bobkVGq_hm5kWT5L7DlmEoxr2DoFo7i)

Other points that were brought up by employees as reasons they hated working there:

Ban on private (sexual) relations with other employees outside the workplace. (Not allowed to ban in Germany legally anyway, shot down by the courts.)

Upper management tiers in Germany where managers who didn't speak German and refused to directly communicate with employees. Total no-no in a relatively flat hierarchical culture. Some tried to write internal briefings in English. Germans may speak English reasonably well in general, but not people who work in supermarkets.

Immediate attempts at total war with unions. In Germany, unions have people on most company boards.

On the customer side:
The customers hated that employees smiled at them. And the employees hated to have to smile. Was considered insincere and creepy all around. Greeters at the door were especially considered creepy, customers interviewed by newspapers used words like "molestation".

People bagging customer's groceries were repeatedly told to get their hands off customer's goods that they had just paid for.

False advertising: they were legally nailed on this one too. Apparently, you can't legally claim to be cheaper than your competitors if your customers (or those competitors) can then show that you aren't.

Walmart lost about 500 million a year in Germany, 3 billion total.

[Fyraltari]

Found the articles again. Apparently, it wasn't quite singing the corp anthem, but some managers at least tried to get their employees to stand in formation and chant "Walmart, Walmart, Walmart!" repeatedly every morning to get them into the proper spirit of loving their company. Employees repeatedly compared it to Nazi rallies.
Wow, that’s ****ing creepy.


This Huff Po article claims similar things at least? (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-did-walmart-leave-ger_b_940542?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAN2T-sDNYTID7eLvHAq-rWt6SJVjxVjS32oMiIyRBnSxMRs8jQTVRhP3f5HhOk6aEAXe-2xWwubgprQuN72C5LmeRx9xhV6Eu7-gPaY2ox6SNbymcLsIxIL-wMILm0Fz1_7X8W-ovttm5bobkVGq_hm5kWT5L7DlmEoxr2DoFo7i)

Other points that were brought up by employees as reasons they hated working there:

Ban on private (sexual) relations with other employees outside the workplace. (Not allowed to ban in Germany legally anyway, shot down by the courts.)
I get what you mean but the way you’ve worded it imply that employees are allowed to bang on the workplace. :smallcool:


Upper management tiers in Germany where managers who didn't speak German and refused to directly communicate with employees. Total no-no in a relatively flat hierarchical culture. Some tried to write internal briefings in English. Germans may speak English reasonably well in general, but not people who work in supermarkets.

Immediate attempts at total war with unions. In Germany, unions have people on most company boards.
Wow, turns out that disrespecting employees isn’t a great idea, who could have thought?


On the customer side:
The customers hated that employees smiled at them. And the employees hated to have to smile. Was considered insincere and creepy all around. Greeters at the door were especially considered creepy, customers interviewed by newspapers used words like "molestation".

People bagging customer's groceries were repeatedly told to get their hands off customer's goods that they had just paid for.
Honestly this is the kind of things that the company could (and should) have adapted to rather quickly.


False advertising: they were legally nailed on this one too. Apparently, you can't legally claim to be cheaper than your competitors if your customers (or those competitors) can then show that you aren't.
Okay, now that’s just asking for problems :smallgrin:

[Eldan]

Yeah. It was mostly a case of people not doing their research. They built 85 stores and then sold them all again in the next 4-5 years.

[Florian]

Uh, I really forgot how all-around creepy the whole "Walmart Experience" used to be.

Didn´t know about the group chanting and calisthenics, but sure as hell that managed to kill any loyalty the company would have earned their employees.

The fun thing is, we love us our uniforms. But no-one wears an uniform with "pride". There´s basically no such thing as pride in a company, or a product, or for that matter, anything outside the core family, really, in german culture. No, we love uniforms, because they put distance between customer and employee. That kind of fake friendliness and helpfulness is so creepy because it tries to bridge that distance.

I actually don't know how the current situation is in other countries.
Around the time Walmart entered the german market, we were in the process of switching to institutionalized large-scale waste recycling, with manufacturers/producers starting the process to switch to recyclable material and supermarket chains making small-scale tests how to include "local products" in their logistic chain.
The current state is that manufacturers/producers are switching to recycled material, "regional and seasonal" has been fully integrated into supply chains and there's an ever-expanding ban against unnecessary plastic.
I seem to recall that Walmarkt was amongst the type of companies that had big problems with this approach.

I also remember their attempted all out war against the unions just fine. Right now, Amazon is in the process of repeating that error. From the outside, unions in Germany are nearly invisible and such things as strikes are a very rare occurrence, general strikes even more so. It seems to really be hard to understand: By law, all employees can be part of an union. Even five employees are enough to form an oversight committee, when you have a board of directors, then half of the seats have to be filled by employees/workers, when there's a union, the union members vote for a co-CEO from their ranks.

[Cikomyr2]

Just for the record, I also heard stories of "employees have to sing the company song at the start of the work day" happening in Walmarts in the US. I found it quite disturbing, and I live in Canada.

I know my gf worked in a store that was purchased by a US corp, and they almost had to start singing these kind of songs in the morning until the union stepped in and got them to back off.

All in all, the whole feeling I have is that US work culture is abnormal and designed to abuse employees for the benefit of the corporations. And its not "normal" for us, but Americans seem to assume its normal you have to put in 50 hours work week all the time. Cause you might lose your job otherwise.

[Talakeal]

To answer the OP:

My definition is:

A science fiction story which is set in a near future capitalist dystopia, has transhumanist elements, and borrows stylistic or plot elements from the noir genre.

[Willie the Duck]

Personally, I think the key thing to remember is that it is a genre (mostly of fiction, be it literary, cinematic, television, etc.; and also things like video games and TTRPGs set in such a framework). Much like a musical style, there are no hard edges, must-haves, or hard exclusions. It is not unlike defining 'what is jazz?' You can make a general framework on what you expect to be there (or at least a 'will probably have 4 out of these 5' type list), but for the most part you have to make retroactive declarations of what probably fits (like we've done with Robocop).

Certainly if you have a generic action movie/mystery/potboiler thriller simply set in a near-future setting with a lots of cybernetics, a lot of people would not include it. Likewise, if you include something glaringly part of another genre, and if it becomes one of the more well-known parts of the genre, parts of it can become defining features (I think the Shadowrun example being a good one -- if SR had had just a bit more cultural critical mass outside the TTRPG subset of cyberpunk, it could perhaps change the genre, rather than being a mixed-genre property).

[dps]

Found the articles again. Apparently, it wasn't quite singing the corp anthem, but some managers at least tried to get their employees to stand in formation and chant "Walmart, Walmart, Walmart!" repeatedly every morning to get them into the proper spirit of loving their company. Employees repeatedly compared it to Nazi rallies.

Ok, in the US they do have a store meeting mid-way through the morning and do a silly little cheer, but no corporate uniform or fitness program, and it's not all employees, just whoever isn't busy at the moment. Most employees just consider it a joke.


Other points that were brought up by employees as reasons they hated working there:

Ban on private (sexual) relations with other employees outside the workplace. (Not allowed to ban in Germany legally anyway, shot down by the courts.)

Nothing like that in the US unless one of the employees is the other's supervisor (which in the US, companies almost have to ban or at least restrict because of sexual harassment laws).


Upper management tiers in Germany where managers who didn't speak German and refused to directly communicate with employees. Total no-no in a relatively flat hierarchical culture. Some tried to write internal briefings in English. Germans may speak English reasonably well in general, but not people who work in supermarkets.

Yeah, Walmart is certainly hierarchical, but trying to do business in English in a non-English speaking country is just stupid.


Immediate attempts at total war with unions. In Germany, unions have people on most company boards.

Oh, yeah, that I buy totally.


On the customer side:
The customers hated that employees smiled at them. And the employees hated to have to smile. Was considered insincere and creepy all around. Greeters at the door were especially considered creepy, customers interviewed by newspapers used words like "molestation".

People bagging customer's groceries were repeatedly told to get their hands off customer's goods that they had just paid for.

Many customers in the US will complain if employees don't smile at them and certainly want someone to bag their purchases for them--in fact, one of the reasons Walmart is perhaps the most hated company in America is because customers find Walmart employees aren't friendly and helpful enough. Still, as Fyraltari pointed out, a company should be able to figure out those cultural differences and adapt to them fairly quickly.


False advertising: they were legally nailed on this one too. Apparently, you can't legally claim to be cheaper than your competitors if your customers (or those competitors) can then show that you aren't.


That's why, in the US, they changed their slogan from "Always the Lowest Price" to "Always the Low Price" and eventually to "Always Low Prices".

EDIT: P.S


Just for the record, I also heard stories of "employees have to sing the company song at the start of the work day" happening in Walmarts in the US. I found it quite disturbing, and I live in Canada.

I know my gf worked in a store that was purchased by a US corp, and they almost had to start singing these kind of songs in the morning until the union stepped in and got them to back off.

All in all, the whole feeling I have is that US work culture is abnormal and designed to abuse employees for the benefit of the corporations. And its not "normal" for us, but Americans seem to assume its normal you have to put in 50 hours work week all the time. Cause you might lose your job otherwise.

I don't know where this company song stuff comes from. I worked for Walmart for almost 11 years in the US, and if there's a company song, I never heard it or even heard of it in all that time. In fact, in 36 years of working in the private sector in the US, I've never worked anywhere that employees sing a company song and do calisthenics, nor do I know anyone who does. We do hear stories of that being the case in Japan, and I've heard that Japanese companies doing business in the US have tried to do that sort of thing here.

And 40 hours is the standard workweek in the US, and for most employees, anything above that if overtime, and companies hate paying overtime, so it's certainly not the norm to work that many hours. That said, a lot of employees will eagerly take overtime when it's available, because they love getting paid time-and-a-half.

[t209]

I don't know where this company song stuff comes from. I worked for Walmart for almost 11 years in the US, and if there's a company song, I never heard it or even heard of it in all that time. In fact, in 36 years of working in the private sector in the US, I've never worked anywhere that employees sing a company song and do calisthenics, nor do I know anyone who does. We do hear stories of that being the case in Japan, and I've heard that Japanese companies doing business in the US have tried to do that sort of thing here.

And 40 hours is the standard workweek in the US, and for most employees, anything above that if overtime, and companies hate paying overtime, so it's certainly not the norm to work that many hours. That said, a lot of employees will eagerly take overtime when it's available, because they love getting paid time-and-a-half.
Managers, usually franchises in US do tend to have manager authority.
Even many people seems to focus on managers.

[CharonsHelper]

And 40 hours is the standard workweek in the US, and for most employees, anything above that if overtime, and companies hate paying overtime, so it's certainly not the norm to work that many hours. That said, a lot of employees will eagerly take overtime when it's available, because they love getting paid time-and-a-half.

Yeah - as a manager myself, I can attest to that.

I'm in charge of a specialist team (it's kind of weird IMO that they're not salaried at their pay level) who are one of the only groups allowed to get overtime at-will as our work spikes up and down, but I've had to talk to employees who put in too many hours to get them to cut back. I've had one case where I suspect they didn't really need to work that much (they could have asked for help getting stuff done) they just wanted the $.

I don't think that anyone in the department is ever required to do OT (at least I haven't seen it yet), and only occasionally is it permitted for most of the department when we know there will be a spike of work.

Now - in the corporate office world OT hours probably cost the company about 15-30% more (50% more pay - but often without 401k matching, no extra $ for benefits, and don't need to rent extra office space etc.), but for retail employees, it probably costs the company at LEAST 30-40% extra per hour. They'd be stupid not to just hire 5 people working 40/wk instead of having 4 people working 50 hours per week. Plus, I've read that workers start putting out diminishing returns over 30 hours/wk (not diminished much in the 30s, but quality/output starts to tank after 40-50/wk).

Now - once you're salaried (like me) the 40 hours becomes the minimum, and they definitely expect me to put in an extra 5-10 hours a week as needed since my pay doesn't change. But I certainly wouldn't stand for working 50+ every week. After a couple months of that, I'd start brushing up my resume.

[Cikomyr2]

Yeah - as a manager myself, I can attest to that.

I'm in charge of a specialist team (it's kind of weird IMO that they're not salaried at their pay level) who are one of the only groups allowed to get overtime at-will as our work spikes up and down, but I've had to talk to employees who put in too many hours to get them to cut back. I've had one case where I suspect they didn't really need to work that much (they could have asked for help getting stuff done) they just wanted the $.

I don't think that anyone in the department is ever required to do OT (at least I haven't seen it yet), and only occasionally is it permitted for most of the department when we know there will be a spike of work.

Now - in the corporate office world OT hours probably cost the company about 15-30% more (50% more pay - but often without 401k matching, no extra $ for benefits, and don't need to rent extra office space etc.), but for retail employees, it probably costs the company at LEAST 30-40% extra per hour. They'd be stupid not to just hire 5 people working 40/wk instead of having 4 people working 50 hours per week. Plus, I've read that workers start putting out diminishing returns over 30 hours/wk (not diminished much in the 30s, but quality/output starts to tank after 40-50/wk).

Now - once you're salaried (like me) the 40 hours becomes the minimum, and they definitely expect me to put in an extra 5-10 hours a week as needed since my pay doesn't change. But I certainly wouldn't stand for working 50+ every week. After a couple months of that, I'd start brushing up my resume.

Well, technically it also cost less to hire 10 employees at 18 hours/week than 5 employees 40 hours/week.

[CharonsHelper]

Well, technically it also cost less to hire 10 employees at 18 hours/week than 5 employees 40 hours/week.

A few issues.

1. That's moot, because you would have 20 fewer hours of coverage per week.

2. No - because each additional employee would be extra paperwork and hassle on the back-end.

3. No - because that's double the up-front initial hiring and training costs.

4. If they offer benefits to the 18hr workers, they would cost WAY more. If they don't, they'd probably get in legal trouble for not allowing them to go full-time, and/or have very high turnover.

5. Probably other issues I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.


If health insurance ever stops being tied to jobs I could see many employers offering more 30ish hour work-weeks (as it is - they would have to offer substantially less than 75% pay for 30hr/wk, as many of their expenses are the insurance benefits). But even then, I don't see jobs as low as 18hrs being common for professions any time soon. Too much of the jobs are project-based, and working much less than 30ish and you'd likely lose track of what you were doing between shifts. I know that I take a bit of time to shift into gear on Mondays for just that reason.

[Florian]

Yeah - as a manager myself, I can attest to that.

I'm in charge of a specialist team (it's kind of weird IMO that they're not salaried at their pay level) who are one of the only groups allowed to get overtime at-will as our work spikes up and down, but I've had to talk to employees who put in too many hours to get them to cut back. I've had one case where I suspect they didn't really need to work that much (they could have asked for help getting stuff done) they just wanted the $.

I don't think that anyone in the department is ever required to do OT (at least I haven't seen it yet), and only occasionally is it permitted for most of the department when we know there will be a spike of work.

Now - in the corporate office world OT hours probably cost the company about 15-30% more (50% more pay - but often without 401k matching, no extra $ for benefits, and don't need to rent extra office space etc.), but for retail employees, it probably costs the company at LEAST 30-40% extra per hour. They'd be stupid not to just hire 5 people working 40/wk instead of having 4 people working 50 hours per week. Plus, I've read that workers start putting out diminishing returns over 30 hours/wk (not diminished much in the 30s, but quality/output starts to tank after 40-50/wk).

Now - once you're salaried (like me) the 40 hours becomes the minimum, and they definitely expect me to put in an extra 5-10 hours a week as needed since my pay doesn't change. But I certainly wouldn't stand for working 50+ every week. After a couple months of that, I'd start brushing up my resume.

It´s interesting to compare how different systems work.

German work contracts basically come down to only four major elements:
- Euro/Hour
- Hours/Week
- Tariff Contract
- Tax Level

Tax Level is the hardest to explain. First, there's the so-called 450-Euro-Job, which is free of taxation on the employee side, costing the company a flat 12€ of mandatory insurance. Now keep in mind that we have universal health insurance and pension/retirement funds going, so these are deducted as percentiles, same as and along with other taxes. Married couples have the option for a high/low split, shifting these percentiles around (30/30 to 10/50). Note that bonus payments are exempted from taxation.

Euro/Hour is simple. It´s the basis anything else is calculated on.

Hours/Week is important for some legal aspects. A statement of (30 +/- 10) means you are salaried for 20 hours a week, with 20 hours optional and OT rules only kicking in beyond 40. A flat (30) or (40) means you're salaried for that number of hours, beyond that, OT rules.

As it seems, OT rules are handled a bit differently. 10% of the base Hours/Week time are mandatory and covered by the basic Euro/Hour rate (unless conditions kick in). Beyond the 10%, the rules are covered by the Tariff Contract. But: Unless specified otherwise in the tariff contract, the company keeps a "Worktime Ledger" and is free to decide whether to pay OT in cash or paid holiday.

Note that I mentioned Tax Level first. The stance on OT is heavily influenced whether you are on high or low taxation. 30/High means only 3h/week are mandatory, but in face of heavy taxation, you rather prefer more holidays, while 40/Low really has the opportunity to get some cash flowing.

Edit to tie that back in the the original topic:

I was always weirdly amused by the dreaded SIN - System Identification Number and how the whole aspects of it seem to be important to people in the anglo-sphere, but not central europeans.

[The Glyphstone]

Thats mostly a legacy artifact of American culture, I think, possibly with religious undertrappings. Can't say much more, but you're right that it is mostly unique to the Anglosphere.

[CharonsHelper]

It´s interesting to compare how different systems work.

Yeah - being stuck at 40/wk is kinda odd. (Though my last job was officially 37.5/wk - I was salaried there too, and my boss really expected 40.)

I think it's largely because of how jobs are tied to health insurance in the US - which you can blame FDR for when he froze employee wages (I forget if it was one of his weird central planning Great Depression things, or a WWII thing), so employers started to give benefits because they wanted to increase wages to compete for the good workers, but they weren't allowed to just give out more cash.

It's really too bad that there isn't more variation and ability to cut down hours somewhat in corporate America. For one thing, I've known several people who retired, but would have totally been up for continuing to work 20-25 hours per week - they just didn't want to keep working the full 40.

I know that father "works" for a local community theater at least 10-15hrs/wk (technically he's paid - but it's not too much more than gas money) because after retirement he was bored.

[Eldan]

I was always weirdly amused by the dreaded SIN - System Identification Number and how the whole aspects of it seem to be important to people in the anglo-sphere, but not central europeans.

Heh. Yeah. When I first read that, I just went, "Why are they putting this much emphasis on what's basically an insurance or passport number?" until someone explained to me that Americans actually don't have those.

[Florian]

I´ll come back to SIN in a moment...

@CharonsHelper:

Hm. Tough topic. The ugly truth is, that pre-Corona, we've basically run out of people to employ. We really scraped the bottom of the barrel, with those 3% not being "unemployed" but rather "not fit for employment of any kind". There is a hot debate ongoing about switching from 40H/week to a 4/8 model, but that is heavily resisted because no-one has a clue how the fill the free positions.

Hence the creation of the "450". At minimum wage, that´s around 40-50 hours/month, depending on the exact country. Note that retirement pay also includes universal health service, so this being exempt from taxes is a nice sum (In the sense that 40h/w at minimum wage will get you around 1,6K before taxes). That should have kept some of the "old hands" working, at least providing some experienced manpower, but mostly, it didn't happen.

I`m not exactly writing this for the fun of it. A topic that has come up in relation to cyberpunk was migration/refugees. Snow Crash has The Raft, GitS SAC is heavily based around a not specified asian war and the lasting results of it, "Bridge" also carries a heavy vibe of inland-migration....

That made me wonder a bit about that specific part of the trope. Despite being the world leader in full automation, beyond all the Industrie 4.0 talk, the last pre-Corona census showed that we still have around 10-15 million open positions, depending on how you count Apprenticeship, not counting possible "450s".

In a certain sense, Germany is a cruel, cold and unforgiving society. I know that half the world considered us to be nuts based on the happenings that started around 2015, but it took some time and effort, by now we have managed to educate a whole "immigration wave" up to the point that nearly 45% managed to enter the regular workforce.

[dps]

It´s interesting to compare how different systems work.

German work contracts basically come down to only four major elements:



Right there is one of the most basic differences between the US and Europe--in the US, it is very rare for individuals to have formal, written employment contracts.

[Fyraltari]

Right there is one of the most basic differences between the US and Europe--in the US, it is very rare for individuals to have formal, written employment contracts.

Is that a joke?

[LibraryOgre]

Is that a joke?

The Mod Ogre: No, but I think we need to stay away from work contracts and the like.

[Tyndmyr]

However, regardless of the above, if one sees the visual cues the are indicative of the cyberpunk aesthetic they'll recognize it as cyberpunk even if it's thematically hollow and largely content in its complacency.

That is true of all genres, I think. One could easily recognize a bad fantasy movie as being fantasy, even if the plot is pretty dumb and missing anything like a decent theme.


To be fair, you could argue that cyberpunk is a very specific dystopian future that seemed plausible in the 80's, and even when it moves with the times, it keeps a few flourishes from then.

After all, the idea of Japan taking over the planet seems a little quaint now (with it no longer being the electronics manufacturing hub it was a few decades ago), but a lot of Cyberpunk doesn't think twice about why angry cyborgs for hire would be called street samurai.

And the idea of cyberspace being a place you can hang around in is just too interesting to ignore, despite bordering on zeerust.

The Japan centric conceit is perhaps a little dated, but a heavily Chinese or pan-asian influence remains quite commonly used in modern takes on the future. Still, in terms of corporate culture, I think Japan's still has something to offer. Western corporate culture is fairly well known, but this is...similar, yet very different. The idea of cultures blending together in the future is common to a lot of sci-fi.

Hell, look at Firefly's incorporation of Chinese language and elements. Same basic principle there, despite not really being cyberpunk. There's a concept that national boundaries are weakening, and cultures will continue to intermingle further. Mashups of very different styles help sell that.

Fears of Japan taking over the world have mostly faded, but the rest of it remains relevant. Likewise, the concept of a gig economy can be seen in at least some cyberpunk, with a strong emphasis on individuals doing ad-hoc work. This is...probably reasonably accurate, and the divide between the secure, but uniform corporate culture and the independents still ultimately controlled by the same folks is not so unrealistic after all.

[Kitten Champion]

That is true of all genres, I think. One could easily recognize a bad fantasy movie as being fantasy, even if the plot is pretty dumb and missing anything like a decent theme.

Sure, but I've never seen anyone argue that because a fantasy work is sub-par - based on their tastes in fantasy - that it shouldn't be called fantasy and instead be relabelled as a different genre.

[CharonsHelper]

Sure, but I've never seen anyone argue that because a fantasy work is sub-par - based on their tastes in fantasy - that it shouldn't be called fantasy and instead be relabelled as a different genre.

While I agree with your sentiment - to play devil's advocate, "cyberpunk" is a much narrower genre than "fantasy". Cyberpunk is a pretty narrow subgenre of the broader "sci-fi". I've heard disagreement about plenty of stories and whether they fit into other narrow subgenres such as "space western" or "space opera" etc.

On the fantasy end, I've heard arguments over whether something counts as "urban fantasy", "dark fantasy", "high fantasy", "gritty", or "magepunk" etc.

Though I do agree; the QUALITY of a piece shouldn't be an argument for whether or not something fits into a sub-genre. There is plenty of crap in any subgenre. One can't just claim that all of the bad/mediocre stuff doesn't qualify for one's favorite subgenre.

[Florian]

That is true of all genres, I think.

We have genre (broad field) and sub-genre (narrow field of the former).

In this context, normally, cyberpunk is a sub-genre of "hard" science fiction, so extrapolation based on facts and in this case with very specific focus on social matters.

[Tyndmyr]

Sure, but I've never seen anyone argue that because a fantasy work is sub-par - based on their tastes in fantasy - that it shouldn't be called fantasy and instead be relabelled as a different genre.

I would agree. Bad cyberpunk doesn't suddenly become not cyberpunk. It just probably doesn't get remembered or cited a lot.

That said, fantasy does sometimes get...ghettoized? Perhaps not quite the right term. There is a strange treatment of sci-fi and fantasy that puts them apart from other fiction, yet somehow mashed together. There is something of an idea in written fiction that fantastical elements somehow render books less worthy of being considered proper literature.

For whatever reason, this does not seem to be as accepted in film, where such things are referred to as "high concept"

[Fyraltari]

That said, fantasy does sometimes get...ghettoized? Perhaps not quite the right term. There is a strange treatment of sci-fi and fantasy that puts them apart from other fiction, yet somehow mashed together. There is something of an idea in written fiction that fantastical elements somehow render books less worthy of being considered proper literature.

What a bizarre concept. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiGhetto)

[Florian]

I would agree. Bad cyberpunk doesn't suddenly become not cyberpunk. It just probably doesn't get remembered or cited a lot.

That said, fantasy does sometimes get...ghettoized? Perhaps not quite the right term. There is a strange treatment of sci-fi and fantasy that puts them apart from other fiction, yet somehow mashed together. There is something of an idea in written fiction that fantastical elements somehow render books less worthy of being considered proper literature.

For whatever reason, this does not seem to be as accepted in film, where such things are referred to as "high concept"

I rather think that EE lacks experience in serious world-building and the story has outgrown the initial setup.

[Rynjin]

I rather think that EE lacks experience in serious world-building and the story has outgrown the initial setup.

Did I accidentally wander back into the Practical Guide thread or are we talking about a different EE?

[Beleriphon]

Here’s an interesting thought: would you consider Robocop part of the cyberpunk genre, as it shares a lot of the same elements (trans-humanism, amoral corporations, rampant criminality)?

Definitely yes.

[Lo'Tek]

[QUOTE=Kitten Champion;24699606]Ultimately I think cyberpunk is ... 90% an aesthetic ...
if one sees the visual cues the are indicative of the cyberpunk aesthetic they'll recognize it as cyberpunk

The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. Relentless rain splashing off the neon lights and skyscrapers. Somewhere amongst the crowd of hackers, street samurai and lost souls, in a dingy basement bar the sound of the underground neon future can be heard.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pEEv3J3Elk

Unlike the Punk subculture, which has a strong and easily identifiable musical genre, with its distorted guitar sounds, rough recording techniques, simple song structures and favorism for the less known artists above megacorp products, CyberPunk has no clearly defined musical aspect in its aesthetic. There only seems to be some vague agreement that the sound of the future is electric.


The Japan centric conceit is perhaps a little dated, but a heavily Chinese or pan-asian influence remains quite commonly used in modern takes on the future.

My search for cyberpunk music has lead me to this particular gem: Tokyo Electric by Mike Rai (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdnU7aJC-M8hLA-uRJnyKqDELzpoLoj-6) (aka Mykah from the video above). The influences of jcore, industrial, house and video game funk really fits what i think of as the sound of cyberpunk. Especially the mix of traditional asian instruments like the Guzheng and Erhus with the sound of electronic synthesizers in "Shinkansen" reminds me of the Shadowrun: Hong Kong Game Soundtrack by Jon Everist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvciSMh3gko5dCv-xZGDzAPZOMEPWYrH1) and takes me straight back from Chiba to Heoi.

[BRC]

While I agree with your sentiment - to play devil's advocate, "cyberpunk" is a much narrower genre than "fantasy". Cyberpunk is a pretty narrow subgenre of the broader "sci-fi". I've heard disagreement about plenty of stories and whether they fit into other narrow subgenres such as "space western" or "space opera" etc.

On the fantasy end, I've heard arguments over whether something counts as "urban fantasy", "dark fantasy", "high fantasy", "gritty", or "magepunk" etc.

Though I do agree; the QUALITY of a piece shouldn't be an argument for whether or not something fits into a sub-genre. There is plenty of crap in any subgenre. One can't just claim that all of the bad/mediocre stuff doesn't qualify for one's favorite subgenre.

Yeah, but here you get into a question of Authorial Intent and such, which can make such classifications tricky.

Like, let's say for the sake of this point that Cyberpunk, as a genre, MUST contain countercultural themes, resistance to some sort of Hegemonic Authority. In the end, the story is about the evils of "The System".

So, we write a story about a hacker who uncovers a plot by an evil corporate executive to do some evil scheme. The Hacker uncovers the plot, flees from Corporate Security, navigates the neon-lit underworld, and eventually thwarts the scheme. At the end of the story, the evil executive is dragged away by the Megacorp's shady goons, implied to be executed for the crime of using the Megacorp's resources to pursue the Evil Scheme.

So we check the aesthetic boxes, but, does this count as a "Cyberpunk" story. After all, this story didn't really turn out to be about resistance to a hegemonic authority, the villain is explicitly acting on his own personal behalf, rather than on behalf of the Megacorp. The Hacker isn't really fighting "The System" so much as he's fighting against an individual villain who happens to hold a position of power within that system.

Like, assuming we believe that Cyberpunk must be about fighting the system , maybe the author intended to have a countercultural theme, but failed to properly carry it across in the text? Or maybe their point is that "The System" is bad because the sort of people who rise to positions of authority in such things are ALSO the type of people to abuse that authority for their own benefit. The System isn't evil because it was behind the Evil Scheme, it's evil because the Villain was able to rise to a position of authority within it in the first place.

When it comes to something as basic as Genre, or even sub-genre, is it helpful to have a classification that's reliant on something so hard to discern, vs using high level tropes and/or aesthetics, which are more recognizable than "Does this story properly convey certain themes". If I say "I want a cyberpunk story", can you had me a book and say "I think the author was TRYING to write cyberpunk here, but just ended up with a hard sci-fi neon-noir with japanese aesthetic influences"

[Caledonian]

So in terms of literature, the suffix -punk indicates fear of society, authority, and the system, and it's the prefix that suggests what sort of world the story takes place in?

Cyberpunk would thus include all sorts of stories, involving oppressive and corrupt societies, centering on the use of computer technology.

[Eldan]

I think in your example, BRC, this still includes an element of an evil system. While the evil corp exec does not have the official blessing of the oppressive system, he is still using its resources and without the system in place, couldn't do what he does.

[The Glyphstone]

I think in your example, BRC, this still includes an element of an evil system. While the evil corp exec does not have the official blessing of the oppressive system, he is still using its resources and without the system in place, couldn't do what he does.

Plus, even once the corp exec is defeated, the system remains, and thus someone else can easily do what he did by making use of those same resources. A battle was won, but the war is still being lost.

[Kapow]

Very interesting stuff posted here.
Too much to address everything.

For me the "punk"-part always meant people who live (more or less willingly) outside the regular (oppressive) society - the above mentioned SIN-less, outcasts, dropouts...
Those don't have to be the protagonists, but they have to have a major part/impact in the setting.
The "cyber"-part on the other side is just the sci-fi tech stuff, hacking and body-mods are usually on the top of the list, but it doesn't have to be included.


I would be very interested, what you think about two other settings:

Transmetropolitan (comic by Warren Ellis)
Lots of dystopic and transhumanist themes

and

River of Gods (novel by Ian McDonald)
it's certainly not the classic Cyberpunk-setting, but it ticks a lot of the mentioned boxes

[Dragonus45]

Yeah, but here you get into a question of Authorial Intent and such, which can make such classifications tricky.

Like, let's say for the sake of this point that Cyberpunk, as a genre, MUST contain countercultural themes, resistance to some sort of Hegemonic Authority. In the end, the story is about the evils of "The System".

So, we write a story about a hacker who uncovers a plot by an evil corporate executive to do some evil scheme. The Hacker uncovers the plot, flees from Corporate Security, navigates the neon-lit underworld, and eventually thwarts the scheme. At the end of the story, the evil executive is dragged away by the Megacorp's shady goons, implied to be executed for the crime of using the Megacorp's resources to pursue the Evil Scheme.

So we check the aesthetic boxes, but, does this count as a "Cyberpunk" story. After all, this story didn't really turn out to be about resistance to a hegemonic authority, the villain is explicitly acting on his own personal behalf, rather than on behalf of the Megacorp. The Hacker isn't really fighting "The System" so much as he's fighting against an individual villain who happens to hold a position of power within that system.

Like, assuming we believe that Cyberpunk must be about fighting the system , maybe the author intended to have a countercultural theme, but failed to properly carry it across in the text? Or maybe their point is that "The System" is bad because the sort of people who rise to positions of authority in such things are ALSO the type of people to abuse that authority for their own benefit. The System isn't evil because it was behind the Evil Scheme, it's evil because the Villain was able to rise to a position of authority within it in the first place.

When it comes to something as basic as Genre, or even sub-genre, is it helpful to have a classification that's reliant on something so hard to discern, vs using high level tropes and/or aesthetics, which are more recognizable than "Does this story properly convey certain themes". If I say "I want a cyberpunk story", can you had me a book and say "I think the author was TRYING to write cyberpunk here, but just ended up with a hard sci-fi neon-noir with japanese aesthetic influences"

What you are talking about there is effectively the definition of Post Cyberpunk, which is cyberpunk but in a world where the system is more neutral and people in positions of power are perfectly capable of taking effective action to make the world a better place, often featuring protagonists who are part of the system or work with people who are. Snow Crash and Ghost in the Shell are the two best pieces of media to point towards for best exemplifying it. Personally I think of them as just being the Cyberpunk but with different themes but some people get fairly intense about the categorization of these things.