D&D/MTG now a two-way street.

[Millstone85]

Because of Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica and Mythic Odysseys of Theros, many of us have wondered if a D&D setting could become a MTG card set.

Well, it is happening. And, surprise surprise, it is Forgotten Realms.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg11qbhX0AI9DR7?format=jpg&name=small (https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1300825241023807489)

According to this tweet (https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1300819089292775424), it will be a "full black-bordered Standard-legal set", but I don't speak Magidagatherinese so I don't know what to make of it.

[Naanomi]

URL="https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1300819089292775424"]this tweet[/URL], it will be a "full black-bordered Standard-legal set", but I don't speak Magidagatherinese so I don't know what to make of it.
Means it will be like just any other set, playable in tournaments and the like (unlike 'silver border' cards, which are from joke sets... or old 'gold border' cards which were promos copies of tournament winning decks)

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll be over here in the corner, drinking. :smallfrown:

I understand the product unification thing from Hasbro's perspective, but I still don't care for it. :smallfrown:

[NorthernPhoenix]

Awesome!:smile: I don't play Magic but i'm hoping for a whole load of great Forgotten Realms art to come out of this!

[Naanomi]

I'll be over here in the corner, drinking. :smallfrown:

I understand the product unification thing from Hasbro's perspective, but I still don't care for it. :smallfrown:
Seemed pretty inevitable once Ravnica became a published book instead of just an article on the website

[Edea]

Let me guess: Eddie's pet wizard is now a planeswalker?

[Kyutaru]

Seemed pretty inevitable once Ravnica became a published book instead of just an article on the website

Or when Disney broke records by unifying the Marvel universe.

Also Kingdom Hearts.

Final Fantasy Dissidia...

Unifying multiple products into a single multi-verse seems to be the way to go these days. It stops the rivalries between factions and encourages nerds of different hobbies to intermingle.

I for one would love this set if I still played that soul-crushing game.

[KorvinStarmast]

Seemed pretty inevitable once Ravnica became a published book instead of just an article on the website Yeah, but I'll never buy it. (Granted, I got Theros but that's in part due to me doing a little play testing for it and in part due to my nephew loving Greek mythology even more than I do. If we use that book, it will be its own campaign.)

[ProsecutorGodot]

Let me guess: Eddie's pet wizard is now a planeswalker?

Of course, he has Plane Shift prepared.

[Willie the Duck]

I'll be over here in the corner, drinking. :smallfrown:

I understand the product unification thing from Hasbro's perspective, but I still don't care for it. :smallfrown:

It's worth remembering that the way MtG card sets work is that all releases stop being part of the 'active' library for tournament play within a year or so, and settles into legacy cards used in casual play (or collector's Mylar-sleeved binders). The Ravnica and Theros books have a much more 'permanent' impact upon the two games (and even there, every DM can simply disallow/not play with them).

[Naanomi]

It's worth remembering that the way MtG card sets work is that all releases stop being part of the 'active' library for tournament play within a year or so, and settles into legacy cards used in casual play (or collector's Mylar-sleeved binders). The Ravnica and Theros books have a much more 'permanent' impact upon the two games (and even there, every DM can simply disallow/not play with them).
Eh, legacy and vintage events (as well as Modern, EDH/Commander, etc) that don't rotate out are still widely played

[KorvinStarmast]

It's worth remembering that the way MtG card sets work is that all releases stop being part of the 'active' library for tournament play within a year or so, and settles into legacy cards used in casual play (or collector's Mylar-sleeved binders). The Ravnica and Theros books have a much more 'permanent' impact upon the two games (and even there, every DM can simply disallow/not play with them). I'm just grumpy that we still have not gotten the 5e Dark Sun bits ... :smallmad: And yet Acquisition Incorporated has a book. :smallmad:

I'll be over here being grumpy and having antother drink. :smallfrown:

Note: I play Hearthstone, and I do not play Wild, so I understand "these cards good, those cards not" as a premise.

[Naanomi]

I'm just grumpy that we still have not gotten the 5e Dark Sun bits ... :smallmad: And yet Acquisition Incorporated has a book. :smallmad:

I'll be over here being grumpy and having antother drink. :smallfrown:

Note: I play Hearthstone, and I do not play Wild, so I understand "these cards good, those cards not" as a premise.
Until we get a robust and acceptable psionics ruleset ironed out in UA, I don't see Darksun being possible

[Millstone85]

Means it will be like just any other set, playable in tournaments and the like (unlike 'silver border' cards, which are from joke sets... or old 'gold border' cards which were promos copies of tournament winning decks)Thanks. And now, for a truly ultranoob what-year-is-it question:
Is that something you can just buy, or are there blind bags and such?

[Unoriginal]

Let me guess: Eddie's pet wizard is now a planeswalker?

Well, when they merged the lore, they said that the M:tG Planes weren't actually planes but separate Crystal Spheres in the Material Plane.

So any D&D wizard can do what a Planeswalkers do as soon as they learn Teleportation.

[Kyutaru]

Well, when they merged the lore, they said that the M:tG Planes weren't actually planes but separate Crystal Spheres in the Material Plane.

So any D&D wizard can do what a Planeswalkers do as soon as they learn Teleportation.

What if it's like the Spelljammer crystal spheres? Only special magic can bypass this barrier. Planeswalkers are notable for their ability to do it.

[Unoriginal]

What if it's like the Spelljammer crystal spheres? Only special magic can bypass this barrier. Planeswalkers are notable for their ability to do it.

It is like Spelljammer's Crystal Spheres, but in 5e you can go through them with a Teleportation spell. At least if you have the code for a Teleportation Circle.

Planeswalkers are still notable for being able to do it innately and without needing to know the landing point.

[Naanomi]

Well, when they merged the lore, they said that the M:tG Planes weren't actually planes but separate Crystal Spheres in the Material Plane.

So any D&D wizard can do what a Planeswalkers do as soon as they learn Teleportation.
My assumption is that the Spheres of the Magic-Verse are fairly isolated from the Radiant Triangle where most DnD settings are; perhaps surrounded by a unique planar phenomenon the way Athas and Eberron are that keep them separate logistically from the Outer/Inner Planes for the most part... perhaps 'the Blind Eternities' (which don't have clear analogs in Planescape inspired cosmology) that Planeswalkers traverse acts in such a capacity, encapsulating the MtG Specific worlds; an enormous phenomenon encapsulating many crystal spheres out in the phlogiston flows

[Millstone85]

Well, when they merged the lore, they said that the M:tG Planes weren't actually planes but separate Crystal Spheres in the Material Plane.They said what now?

I mean, from what I understand, the easiest way to merge these cosmologies would be to say that the Blind Eternities are either (A) the Phlogiston, (B) the Deep Ethereal, or (C) the Far Realm, though that last one would pretty much be a non-merger.

My first thought for Ravnica was option A, but after Eberron ended up with B it no longer seemed plausible as an official answer.

[Kyutaru]

It is like Spelljammer's Crystal Spheres, but in 5e you can go through them with a Teleportation spell. At least if you have the code for a Teleportation Circle.

Planeswalkers are still notable for being able to do it innately and without needing to know the landing point.
inb4 Stargate gets bought by Hasbro and we get D&D source books with M16s, Goa'uld and modern Earth technology.


They said what now?

I mean, from what I understand, the easiest way to merge these cosmologies would be to say that the Blind Eternities are either (A) the Phlogiston, (B) the Deep Ethereal, or (C) the Far Realm, though that last one would pretty much be a non-merger.

My first thought for Ravnica was option A, but after Eberron ended up with B it no longer seemed plausible as an official answer.

Someone did a writeup on merging the two a long while ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgvorthos/comments/9t1bbs/what_will_be_the_consequences_of_uniting_dd_and/

[Kuu Lightwing]

Have they ever properly integrated the concepts of mana and color wheel into DnD-like settings? Doesn't magic from Magic essentially work by tapping into environmental energy reserves, similar to how Black Mages operate in FFXIV for example?

[Naanomi]

Have they ever properly integrated the concepts of mana and color wheel into DnD-like settings? Doesn't magic from Magic essentially work by tapping into environmental energy reserves, similar to how Black Mages operate in FFXIV for example?
Magic works in a few ways, but yes that explains the bulk of the system. Planeswalkers get special power reserves from their... memories of other worlds sort of... that cheats the 'local mana supply' system... and there are a few things that draw power directly from 'the blind eternities' that encompasses, surrounds, and separates the other worlds

[Yakk]

Have they ever properly integrated the concepts of mana and color wheel into DnD-like settings? Doesn't magic from Magic essentially work by tapping into environmental energy reserves, similar to how Black Mages operate in FFXIV for example?
That is how "planeswalker card player" tier magic works.

The creatures at lower tiers don't seem to act nearly like that. And D&D characters in MtG are lower tier (heck, Gods are lower tier than players in MtG).

[Waterdeep Merch]

When I was a teen that played both, I always thought it would be cool to design a class in D&D that used Magic cards as their spells. I never really figured it out, though.

Now that I'm an adult, I'm thinking of how I might be able to make an RPG out of playing Magic. The mechanics for making that work don't feel like they'd be hard.

I'd have to dump money into collecting cardboard again, though, and force it on my poor players. So perhaps I don't do this.

But eh, if I've got the disposable income I might grab a booster or two and dream about what could have been. For old time's sake.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Magic works in a few ways, but yes that explains the bulk of the system. Planeswalkers get special power reserves from their... memories of other worlds sort of... that cheats the 'local mana supply' system... and there are a few things that draw power directly from 'the blind eternities' that encompasses, surrounds, and separates the other worlds

I see. I only read a few books, and those were pretty damn old books - the Urza saga, basically the very first books released for Magic. They introduced the concept of "Memories of the land" in the very first book I believe. So you are saying that it's only planeswalkers who can cast magic from those memories? So, non-planeswalkers can use magic, but they still need mana, that they should draw from mana-rich territories? That's... a bit of a noticeable difference between MTG mage and DnD mage... I don't think in DnD the concept of drawing magic from the land is explored all that much, outside the particular setting - the Dark Sun, and even then from what I understand magic still works via spell slots and such. Kinda disappointing to be honest.

In general, I feel like meshing the settings is a bit... hard if they want to preserve the mechanics and cosmology of the worlds.


That is how "planeswalker card player" tier magic works.

The creatures at lower tiers don't seem to act nearly like that. And D&D characters in MtG are lower tier (heck, Gods are lower tier than players in MtG).

Edit: I see conflicting messages between your two posts. And haven't the planeswalkers been severely weakened after a particular event in MtG storyline?

[JNAProductions]

When I was a teen that played both, I always thought it would be cool to design a class in D&D that used Magic cards as their spells. I never really figured it out, though.

Now that I'm an adult, I'm thinking of how I might be able to make an RPG out of playing Magic. The mechanics for making that work don't feel like they'd be hard.

I'd have to dump money into collecting cardboard again, though, and force it on my poor players. So perhaps I don't do this.

But eh, if I've got the disposable income I might grab a booster or two and dream about what could have been. For old time's sake.

You can google MtG cards, and if you're just using them for fun with friends, nothing stops you form printing copies of cards. There's even a site designed to make it easier. (https://mtgprint.cardtrader.com/)

[False God]

As I've said before, it always seemed silly that one company would own two fantasy products and never overlap them at least cosmetically.

There's some amazing lore in the MTG verse that would make great D&D campaign material. Likewise there's some fun creatures and characters that would make equally fun cards to play in MTG.

D&D needs to make money, and MTG needs new material. Seems like a match made in heaven.

I still wouldn't want to play an MTG-card based class, but I think certain concepts like colored mana as a variant spell-point system could be creatively adapted for D&D.

[Kyutaru]

I still wouldn't want to play an MTG-card based class, but I think certain concepts like colored mana as a variant spell-point system could be creatively adapted for D&D.

MTG classes are just wizards. They summon creatures, they cast world-changing spells, they buff allies, they nuke things with Fireballs.

Really no difference aside from the whole Planeswalker shtick.

[micahaphone]

I need to know what forgotten realms character will be a weirdly sexy planeswalker!

[firelistener]

I've noticed the merge, but personally I don't care much for card games. As long as D&D still plays like D&D and the core books stay that way, I'll happy digest new content from the universes that historically haven't been part of Forgotten Realms.

[Kyutaru]

I need to know what forgotten realms character will be a weirdly sexy planeswalker!

Like you need to ask... only one wizard spends his time carousing through the planes -- Elminster the Planeswalker!

[Ortho]

I was never under the impression that Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica and Mythic Odysseys of Theros were canon settings. I've always seen them as simple translations of the MtG settings into D&D terms. After all, they don't contain any references to the broader D&D cosmology (beyond sidebars saying what the subclasses would look like in other settings, but that doesn't really count).

I'm wondering if we won't see the equivalent with that - a showcase of the Forgotten Realms with the mechanics converted over, but otherwise completely disconnected from the broader MtG multiverse.

[Millstone85]

inb4 Stargate gets bought by Hasbro and we get D&D source books with M16s, Goa'uld and modern Earth technology.

Someone did a writeup on merging the two a long while ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgvorthos/comments/9t1bbs/what_will_be_the_consequences_of_uniting_dd_and/
Jeremy Crawford has said that if one knows the code to a Teleportation Circle on Ravnica, one can teleport from any normal crystal sphere world like say Toril or Kyrnn or Oeril to Ravnica and visversa. According to him it can also be reached by Spelljammers and has a Crystal Sphere.Okay, but the redditor with the bragging alias didn't say where Crawford said that.

Though now I remember this video where Crawford got into the Stargate-ish aspects of the teleport spell, at 37:40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c#t=37m40s).

It is the same video where he called the Ring of Siberys a crystal sphere, at 28:18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c#t=28m18s). And with the release of RftLW, that turned out to have been very misleading.

[Unoriginal]

They said what now?

I mean, from what I understand, the easiest way to merge these cosmologies would be to say that the Blind Eternities are either (A) the Phlogiston, (B) the Deep Ethereal, or (C) the Far Realm, though that last one would pretty much be a non-merger.

My first thought for Ravnica was option A, but after Eberron ended up with B it no longer seemed plausible as an official answer.

Actually Eberron is ALSO a Phlogiston-connected Material Plane world. It's just in a weird, specially-made Crystal Sphere which the locals give a specific name to, and it's subjected to peculiar planar influence.



inb4 Stargate gets bought by Hasbro and we get D&D source books with M16s, Goa'uld and modern Earth technology.

Modern Earth is already canonically in the D&D Material Plane. Wizards used to meet in Ed Greenwood's kitchen.


My assumption is that the Spheres of the Magic-Verse are fairly isolated from the Radiant Triangle where most DnD settings are; perhaps surrounded by a unique planar phenomenon the way Athas and Eberron are that keep them separate logistically from the Outer/Inner Planes for the most part... perhaps 'the Blind Eternities' (which don't have clear analogs in Planescape inspired cosmology) that Planeswalkers traverse acts in such a capacity, encapsulating the MtG Specific worlds; an enormous phenomenon encapsulating many crystal spheres out in the phlogiston flows

That's likely to be the explanation, yeah.


I need to know what forgotten realms character will be a weirdly sexy planeswalker!

As long as Jace get punched in the face I'm ok.

[Kyutaru]

I've always seen them as simple translations of the MtG settings into D&D terms. After all, they don't contain any references to the broader D&D cosmology
I suppose the MTG wizards interpreted the universe according to how they understood it and the Forgotten Realms did the same. Not all places have access to the same cosmology as Dark Sun shows. Maybe the MTG worlds are closely tied to the elemental planes along with the positive and negative ones but refer to them as some unreachable well of pure magic since they only discovered Material Plane teleportation. Their invasions by extraplanar beings shows they haven't really been anywhere else and they must be in some far off corner of the Phlogiston (which they call the Aether). Different strokes for different blokes.


Okay, but the redditor with the bragging alias didn't say where Crawford said that.
Oh I don't mean him, I mean Regitnui's post. The author was heavily downvoted. The replies have logical sense to them.

[Dienekes]

I see. I only read a few books, and those were pretty damn old books - the Urza saga, basically the very first books released for Magic. They introduced the concept of "Memories of the land" in the very first book I believe. So you are saying that it's only planeswalkers who can cast magic from those memories? So, non-planeswalkers can use magic, but they still need mana, that they should draw from mana-rich territories? That's... a bit of a noticeable difference between MTG mage and DnD mage... I don't think in DnD the concept of drawing magic from the land is explored all that much, outside the particular setting - the Dark Sun, and even then from what I understand magic still works via spell slots and such. Kinda disappointing to be honest.

In general, I feel like meshing the settings is a bit... hard if they want to preserve the mechanics and cosmology of the worlds.



Edit: I see conflicting messages between your two posts. And haven't the planeswalkers been severely weakened after a particular event in MtG storyline?

It is not. One thing that feels like a missed opportunity for the MTG DND books is that they did not come up with a mana spell system.

Personally, I think that would be way more interesting to play and balance than the current spell slot system.

In my mind I see a system where you increase your Mana each round to cast different and bigger spells.

Imagine having to determine which Mana to gather on your turn which means you have to predict what you want to cast not just this turn but the next. While also making a much better power cycle than the game currently has for casters/martials. Instead of being short rest/long rest dependent you’d instead get an in-encounter cycle where the non-mana based classes come out strong while the mana class is the finisher. Giving both a time to shine in most encounters and actually does the “martial protect mages” story much better than when mages can just open up a fight with their best control or damage spell.

[Kyutaru]

It is not. One thing that feels like a missed opportunity for the MTG DND books is that they did not come up with a mana spell system.

Personally, I think that would be way more interesting to play and balance than the current spell slot system.

In my mind I see a system where you increase your Mana each round to cast different and bigger spells.
Well if they wanted to use Magic the Gathering lore itself then they really couldn't. There is no round by round mana system to work off of. The land system is based on dominance and the resources you control in your domain. You can only tap into so many per turn because that's the limit of your flow from those areas. Playing new lands and artifacts to build up mana is more of an abstract representation of the war going on and the events taking place to control or find more resources. Battles aren't necessarily taking place in real time but over a political landscape. Magic is very much Combat As War and any mana system wouldn't make a great deal of sense. Better to just see it as spell schools and you gain more access to the School of Fire by investing more resources into it.

[Dienekes]

Well if they wanted to use Magic the Gathering lore itself then they really couldn't. There is no round by round mana system to work off of. The land system is based on dominance and the resources you control in your domain. You can only tap into so many per turn because that's the limit of your flow from those areas. Playing new lands and artifacts to build up mana is more of an abstract representation of the war going on and the events taking place to control or find more resources. Battles aren't necessarily taking place in real time but over a political landscape. Magic is very much Combat As War and any mana system wouldn't make a great deal of sense. Better to just see it as spell schools and you gain more access to the School of Fire by investing more resources into it.

Huh. Now I admit, I have not followed MTG Lore in a long time. But considering how many times I saw powerful mages like Barrin, Bo Levar, and Guff all kill themselves doing powerful magic when their home base was all but run over by the Phyrexians it doesn’t seem that they follow their own rules very well.

[Unoriginal]

I'll be over here in the corner, drinking.

Be careful, you're risking to have level 1 characters approach you for a quest.



Oh I don't mean him, I mean Regitnui's post.

Regitnui... didn't he use to post on this forum?

[Joe the Rat]

Modern Earth is already canonically in the D&D Material Plane. Wizards used to meet in Ed Greenwood's kitchen.

and the Cudgel of St. Cuthbert can be found in a British museum, and Baba Yaga has a WWII Russian Tank in the basement, as one does.
The last one not being canonical, but c'mon.


I still think they missed an opportunity with 4th Ed, since the Source and Role class Matrix made a good template for a Magic 5-color based system. I suppose the real question is to what extent mana and color is a conceit of the mechanics, and how much it is a necessary aspect of the lore. I think we've done well taking the creatures and worlds and slotting them into D&D frames. Going the other way should be even easier, save the inevitable arguments about what color Drizz't should be.

[Naanomi]

I see. I only read a few books, and those were pretty damn old books - the Urza saga, basically the very first books released for Magic. They introduced the concept of "Memories of the land" in the very first book I believe. So you are saying that it's only planeswalkers who can cast magic from those memories? So, non-planeswalkers can use magic, but they still need mana, that they should draw from mana-rich territories? That's... a bit of a noticeable difference between MTG mage and DnD mage... I don't think in DnD the concept of drawing magic from the land is explored all that much, outside the particular setting - the Dark Sun, and even then from what I understand magic still works via spell slots and such. Kinda disappointing to be honest.
non-Planeswalkers can only use magic from the land around them, though there appears to be some distance at which they can operate (line of sight maybe?). Planeswalkers can forge 'bonds' with places from other Planes of existence to draw upon and cast more powerful magic on the fly that would normally take great time, ritual, number of participants, or other similar factors to enact... though there are other beings out there with so much mana 'oomph' on their own that they can produce similar feats without a Planeswalker spark (albeit usually still with much less versatility than a Planeswalker)

Note that there was a plot event that took the level of Planeswalkers down from 'shapeshifting immortal godlike beings' down to 'powerful innate mortal magic users' in the setting (during the events of Timespiral Block)



In general, I feel like meshing the settings is a bit... hard if they want to preserve the mechanics and cosmology of the worlds?
If we look back at earlier Planescape material (and especially the stuff that predates it), worlds having very unique mini-cosmologies is not as uncommon as you'd think. Birthright, Mystara, Eberron, and Darksun all have very 'unique' systems and ways of interacting with Planar Cosmology, and yet are still all cannon locations on the Prime Material Plane (at least in this edition, in 3e the Deep Shadow plane was involved in some worlds being separate from the Great Wheel... a concept that appears to have been abandoned now).

A large chunk of worlds being isolated in their own little corner of the infinite Prime is perfectly workable without much trouble at all. Make the Blind Eternities some sort of giant Phlogiston storm, perhaps caused by the Aberrations that dwell there (Eldrazi and a few other things)... a storm that damages the soul of anyone who goes out there (including those trying to travel to different Planes magically) without special protections and can cause a 'Planeswalker Spark' (similar in a way to the Dragon Marks that Eberron's weird cosmology inflicts on people) to develop in people that also allows people to use Planar Travel Magic in ways others cannot without exceptional artifice or extremely powerful magic

[Edea]

...you know...if they force Adventurer's League players to buy magic item or spell booster packs to determine what they have equipped/learned for their character's next game, I'm just gonna laugh.

[Luccan]

I don't think this is a problem unless one starts dictating too much to the other; the MtG books, while not to everyone's taste, have in no way foisted the expectation of Planeswalker focused games onto D&D or even that Loxodons and Vedalken should be considered for every setting. I'll start worrying when D&D has actually become Magic: The Roleplaying Game and not before (I don't play Magic, but I hope D&D doesn't change what people like about it either)

[Naanomi]

..have in no way foisted the expectation of Planeswalker focused games onto D&D or even that Loxodons and Vedalken should be considered for every settingTo be fair, 'elephant-men' in Forgotten Realms (and I think Mystara)... and thus Spelljammer/Planescape... were around back in 2e

[Waterdeep Merch]

...you know...if they force Adventurer's League players to buy magic item or spell booster packs to determine what they have equipped/learned for their character's next game, I'm just gonna laugh.

I let my players do something similar to this during our last Christmas game. They got a bounty of gold, but they could spend it at the end for random rolls on the DMG magic item tables.

Everyone bit, and threw all their money at it.

So... yeah, I bet WotC would make an absolute amoral killing that way.

[Luccan]

To be fair, 'elephant-men' in Forgotten Realms (and I think Mystara)... and thus Spelljammer/Planescape... were around back in 2e

That's partly why I included Vedalken as well. Seemed unlikely such a commonly thought-of animal hadn't been anthropomorphized for a PC race by D&D at some point. Still, I assume loxos aren't exactly filling the same idea space, since they have that whole builder angle.

[Cikomyr2]

and the Cudgel of St. Cuthbert can be found in a British museum, and Baba Yaga has a WWII Russian Tank in the basement, as one does.
The last one not being canonical, but c'mon.


I still think they missed an opportunity with 4th Ed, since the Source and Role class Matrix made a good template for a Magic 5-color based system. I suppose the real question is to what extent mana and color is a conceit of the mechanics, and how much it is a necessary aspect of the lore. I think we've done well taking the creatures and worlds and slotting them into D&D frames. Going the other way should be even easier, save the inevitable arguments about what color Drizz't should be.

Drizzt is obviously Red/Green

[False God]

MTG classes are just wizards. They summon creatures, they cast world-changing spells, they buff allies, they nuke things with Fireballs.

Really no difference aside from the whole Planeswalker shtick.

Planeswalkers function similar to JRPG classes, where regular attacks build to big extra attacks, which is something I'd be fine with.

I just meant I don't want to see like, a class that is meant to emulate the actual play of MTG.

[Edea]

Heh, using a deck of cards as an arcane focus?

Sorcerer archetype that involves tapping mana and having a 'random additional spells known pool' they draw and cast from using said new resource?

I mean, I can see it.

[HolyDraconus]

i mean, the next set, zendikar, literally has a new mechanic called Party, which does things depending on if you have one, which consists of....cleric...wizard...warrior... and rogue. If people didnt see that merging coming i dont know what to say

[LudicSavant]

I'll be over here in the corner, drinking. :smallfrown:

I understand the product unification thing from Hasbro's perspective, but I still don't care for it. :smallfrown:


I let my players do something similar to this during our last Christmas game. They got a bounty of gold, but they could spend it at the end for random rolls on the DMG magic item tables.

Everyone bit, and threw all their money at it.

So... yeah, I bet WotC would make an absolute amoral killing that way.

These are dark times.

[Lyracian]

Several people in my group, myself included, used to play a lot of MTG. We will pick some of these up for fun. Can build a deck to play games while waiting for other players to arrive or just use cards as cool monster pics for players.

[Naanomi]

MTG classes are just wizards. They summon creatures, they cast world-changing spells, they buff allies, they nuke things with Fireballs.

Really no difference aside from the whole Planeswalker shtick.
That used to be true, barring some Artificers, but the modern Planeswalkers would probably be represented by a whole lot of different classes (with tacked on spell-like abilities)... Chandra the Sorcerer... Angrath and 'The Wanderer' the Fighters (with magic weapons)... Dack Fayden and Kaya the Rogues... Daretti, Dovin Baan, Nahiri, Ral Zarek, Saheeli Rai, and Tezzeret the Artificers... Domri Rade the Barbarian... Vivienne Reid and Jiang Yanggu the rangers... Gideon Jura the Paladin... Garruk and Nissa Rivane the Druids...


Several people in my group, myself included, used to play a lot of MTG. We will pick some of these up for fun. Can build a deck to play games while waiting for other players to arrive or just use cards as cool monster pics for players.
Richard Garfield and co. originally made Magic to be 'DnD you could play in the back of the car'... the entire Legends set is basically characters and places from their DnD Campaign

[Unoriginal]

Heh, using a deck of cards as an arcane focus?

Likely we'll see that in the Tasha's Cauldron of Plenty book.

[Mikal]

Something tells me they’re going to bring back the level up mechanic for this. If they don’t they should lol

[Chronos]

What always bothered me about Ravnica as a D&D setting is that it's one of the more interesting settings from M:tG, but what makes it interesting is inherently tied to the mechanics of that game, mechanics which are absent from D&D. And so in the D&D version of the setting, it's a world ruled by ten guilds, but there's no reason why it couldn't be nine or eleven, and there's no concept of why certain guilds tend to be aligned or opposed. But in the M:tG version, it was a whole detailed structure: There are five colors of mana, arranged in a circle with some colors aligned or opposed, and there's a guild for every pairing of colors, including the opposed ones, and the opposite-color guilds have internal struggles of a sort that the adjacent-color guilds don't, and two guilds can find common ground to cooperate if they have a color in common. You just can't have any of that interesting structure if you don't already have the concept of the five colors.

[Kyutaru]

You just can't have any of that interesting structure if you don't already have the concept of the five colors.
D&D merely categorizes magic differently. They split air and water spells into their own categories instead of sharing with blue. They might not have combo guilds but instead focus on a particular school or elements like poison that are removed from the archetypes. It's more realistic for their to be granularity to evolution rather than 10 equal powerhouses. Maybe the fire guild is the strongest because the element is commonly used while the poison guild is rarer, more secretive, and not as universally strong. Even within the colors it would make sense if Fire/Black was a stronger color combo than Blue/Green for whatever reason and so had a bigger and better guild wielding more power. But MTG equalizes them by arbitrary standards.

The interesting structure encourages disbelief and breaks the natural power struggles that are created, even with guilds rising and falling over time. It's neat and tidy for the analytically inclined but breaks the illusion being put forward.

[Segev]

Like you need to ask... only one wizard spends his time carousing through the planes -- Elminster the Planeswalker!

Acererak is known for wandering the planes, seeing trouble and strife to cause and nurturing would-be dark gods.

[Cikomyr2]

Acererak is known for wandering the planes, seeing trouble and strife to cause and nurturing would-be dark gods.

Mordenkainen? Bigby? Tenser?

All the originals from Gary Gygax?

[False God]

What always bothered me about Ravnica as a D&D setting is that it's one of the more interesting settings from M:tG, but what makes it interesting is inherently tied to the mechanics of that game, mechanics which are absent from D&D. And so in the D&D version of the setting, it's a world ruled by ten guilds, but there's no reason why it couldn't be nine or eleven, and there's no concept of why certain guilds tend to be aligned or opposed. But in the M:tG version, it was a whole detailed structure: There are five colors of mana, arranged in a circle with some colors aligned or opposed, and there's a guild for every pairing of colors, including the opposed ones, and the opposite-color guilds have internal struggles of a sort that the adjacent-color guilds don't, and two guilds can find common ground to cooperate if they have a color in common. You just can't have any of that interesting structure if you don't already have the concept of the five colors.

Uh..., so uh, no, not really.

The 10 guilds exist because of the Guildpact (https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Guildpact_(spell)). It's not that there can't be other guilds or groups it's just that there can't be other Guilds (capital G) because the Guilds were the founding members of the Guildpact which is some kind of big McGuffin to the stability of Ravnica. That's why they're THE Guilds. There are frequently references to internal and external factions made up of highly specific members of a guild or people who find themselves cross-guild or without a guild.

Further, the colors are more extensions of the Guilds philosophy, not the other way around. Izzet, Simic, Azorius and Dimir all have blue because they're all intelligence-related guilds and blue is the color associated with knowledge and learning. Izzeet is chaotic so they get red. Simic messes with biology so they get green, Azorious deals with the law so white, and Dimir does underhanded stuff so black.

In Ravnica, the ideology comes first and the mana associations come second. The ideology is where guilds find common ground, and the color overlap simply supports that mechanically.

As for if they do or don't have internal power struggles, there's only so much that can be put into a game or into a book, the latter WotC cut back on. There's nothing stopping there from being an internal power struggle between color-adjacent Guilds. You don't have have a completely different color or ideology to believe the guy in charge isn't doing things right and you'd do things better. This is arguably more the domain of the DM of any particular campaign to set up, rather than WotC to write that anyone is or isn't having internal struggles.


D&D merely categorizes magic differently. They split air and water spells into their own categories instead of sharing with blue. They might not have combo guilds but instead focus on a particular school or elements like poison that are removed from the archetypes. It's more realistic for their to be granularity to evolution rather than 10 equal powerhouses. Maybe the fire guild is the strongest because the element is commonly used while the poison guild is rarer, more secretive, and not as universally strong. Even within the colors it would make sense if Fire/Black was a stronger color combo than Blue/Green for whatever reason and so had a bigger and better guild wielding more power. But MTG equalizes them by arbitrary standards.
It is often clearly noted that the Guilds are not equal. Azorius, Boros, Selesnya and Orzhov are often observed to be dominant because of their adherence to law and structure, something that is obviously going to give them more ground in a civilization. Gruul is often noted to be one of the weaker guilds due to its lack of civilization, and general disinterest in participating in society. Rakdos have much the same problem, sure red and black are powerful but they're the definition of chaotic evil. There's a lack of organization, a general bent on destruction, even self-destruction. They're powerful but unstable, hence making them less prominent in a civilized society. Dimir very much does operate in the shadows, as does Golgari, and while both are more organized than Gruul or Rakdos, they both take a step back from society at large.

The cards are balanced numerically in the sets for game balance reasons. It shouldn't be taken as a statement that the Guilds are all equals. The guilds are The Guilds (as I explained above) and hold their positions, regardless of their particular power level for magical McGuffin reasons.

The colors are balanced (or they try to) for MTG gameplay reasons. That, again shouldn't be taken as a statement that the Guilds are all equals.

[Segev]

Mordenkainen? Bigby? Tenser?

All the originals from Gary Gygax?

Sure. Though I believe most of those are actually homebodies in terms of planeswalking. I brought up Acererak specifically because he's explicitly traveling around the planes doing ehehehehevil.

[Naanomi]

Sure. Though I believe most of those are actually homebodies in terms of planeswalking. I brought up Acererak specifically because he's explicitly traveling around the planes doing ehehehehevil.
We have plenty of Spelljamming ports on Toril and the surrounding areas, so people are at least out doing things on the planes... a very famous spelljamming engine replacement was developed by the Netherese... albeit most of that travel is in the Radiant Triangle (and in some editions, the Astromundi cluster). We don’t even have evidence the MTG-Cluster Is in Greater Arcane Space

[Segev]

We have plenty of Spelljamming ports on Toril and the surrounding areas, so people are at least out doing things on the planes... a very famous spelljamming engine replacement was developed by the Netherese... albeit most of that travel is in the Radiant Triangle (and in some editions, the Astromundi cluster). We don’t even have evidence the MTG-Cluster Is in Greater Arcane Space

The crossover potential of Spelljammer with M:tG is intriguing; I wonder if we'll get a 5e treatment of Spelljammer. I don't think we ever got one in any edition past 2e.

[Naanomi]

The crossover potential of Spelljammer with M:tG is intriguing; I wonder if we'll get a 5e treatment of Spelljammer. I don't think we ever got one in any edition past 2e.
We already have a few examples of MtG Ships that move between Planes, it wouldn't be a stretch at all

[Kyutaru]

Now imagine MTG discovers Sigil.

No more planeswalking. Just go wherever you want. Portals everywhere.

[Naanomi]

Now imagine MTG discovers Sigil.

No more planeswalking. Just go wherever you want. Portals everywhere.
Given that we have never seen natural portals connecting Planes in the MtG setting directly, I assume that whatever ‘the Blind Eternities’ are, they interfere with natural Planar Travel mechanisms (a more powerful version of the effect The Grey has on Athas). Excepting the few creatures native to them Eternities; only Planeswalkers, comparably powerful beings (like some spirits from Kamigawa), and immensely powerful artifacts (most of which stopped working after the mending) could do the job

Also, in most cases Sigil portals are not reliable enough to replace the need for other Planar Travel methods anyways... the Netherese went to Sigil, but also invested a ton of time exploring the Planes in other ways as well

[Segev]

Sigil’s portals are plenty reliable. They just aren’t always convenient if you’re not based there. You might have only one or two anywhere near your particular port of call, and they can be less than great for massive amounts of traffic.

Any really useful Sigil portals likely have trading centers at the exit ends. And if you’re Netheril, you have enough magic and wealth to build something that lets you planar travel and trade reliably with wherever you choose. It pays for itself reasonably quickly with the volume of trade you can put through it, again because of what you are trading and producing from the materials trafficked through your custom planar gates.

[MoiMagnus]

Since the GGR is not canon to MtG, I am wondering if:

1) They will make GGR canon to both FR and MtG, possibly ret-conning few details, and have the new extension follow the same logic: all the MtG planes are inside the material plane of D&D, and find some reasons for plane-shift to not work everywhere in the material plane.

2) The new magic extension will not be in the MtG continuity, and will only be canon to the D&D universe.

3) The new extension will take the reverse logic: the whole D&D universe is inside a single plane of MtG, with planeswalking being a capacity unknown to even gods of D&D. This mean we would have D&D+GGR and MtG+FR which are two different and incompatible settings, one with the rules of D&D at the top, one with the rules of MtG at the top.

4) They will totally avoid the problem and never answer any question about it, letting peoples come up with their own theories.

[Naanomi]

I suspect it will be some combination of #1 and #4... we already have areas on the Prime you cannot travel to/from directly

[Witty Username]

I think my big concern with this is the implication that d&d resurrection magic is standard for mtg planes. Kind of like phoenix downs in Final Fantasy.

I am increasingly neutral on this, hoping that this means good things for Magic story and hoping for proper spelljammer in D&D with a part of wildspace called the blind eternities, worrying that a bad enough corporate decision is more likely to kill both games.

[Naanomi]

I think my big concern with this is the implication that d&d resurrection magic is standard for mtg planes. Kind of like phoenix downs in Final Fantasy
A quick search finds... 94ish white cards that already exist which can bring a creature back from the graveyard in MTG... for as little as three mana (and no diamonds of any value)

[Kyutaru]

A quick search finds... 94ish white cards that already exist which can bring a creature back from the graveyard in MTG... for as little as three mana (and no diamonds of any value)

Revival is 2 mana though does allow black as an option (you can still pay 2 white).
As little as 1 mana if you want to reincarnate it as something else.
Or as little as 0 mana if you control Emeria the Sky Ruin with enough other land.
Not to mention all the clerics and angels that can resurrect on their own.

Black meanwhile can animate the dead for as little as 2 mana.
Or 1 mana if you have a sacrifice... you horrible person you.
Even green can stop things from dying for 1 mana. Revivify eat your heart out.

[Spriteless]

Can you resurrect planeswalkers like you can creatures? Is it something whose in fiction definitions might be argued, like whether thrulls are undead, constructs, or living creatures? I mean, zombies have the creature supertype, why does having that make thrulls living creature officially the Orhzov are associated with undead there's 4 green guilds you can- this rant is off topic.

MtG spells and D&D spells don't have a 1:1 relation. Maybe Disenchant is dispell magic. Maybe countering your counter to my counter to your counter to my counter to your counter to my counter to your counter to my Disenchant is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. The discard mechanics/amnesia fiction in MtG was so hard to do in D&D that they printed a low level memory stealing D&D spell in Ravnica because it just wouldn't be the same without it. And it is the best solution for a telepathic class in 5e so far, including psionic UAs.

Now, I know MtG takes some inspiration from D&D, but what is common in D&D but rare in MtG, that might result in neat game changers?

[Naanomi]

Can you resurrect planeswalkers like you can creatures?
Much less common, but... I can find five examples in the existing MtG Cards (two spells that resurrect, two that return Planeswalkers as intelligent undead, one one that... references a specific event with a specific Planeswalker that involved Time Travel to undo his death)

Thrulls are made from dead flesh but are explicitly living creatures with Souls... their original creation by the Sarpadians was to have a source of easily bred and docile creatures to sacrifice in the practice of dark magic; something that wouldn't work with undead or constructs the same way

[Segev]

Can you resurrect planeswalkers like you can creatures? Is it something whose in fiction definitions might be argued, like whether thrulls are undead, constructs, or living creatures? I mean, zombies have the creature supertype, why does having that make thrulls living creature officially the Orhzov are associated with undead there's 4 green guilds you can- this rant is off topic.

MtG spells and D&D spells don't have a 1:1 relation. Maybe Disenchant is dispell magic. Maybe countering your counter to my counter to your counter to my counter to your counter to my counter to your counter to my Disenchant is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. The discard mechanics/amnesia fiction in MtG was so hard to do in D&D that they printed a low level memory stealing D&D spell in Ravnica because it just wouldn't be the same without it. And it is the best solution for a telepathic class in 5e so far, including psionic UAs.

Now, I know MtG takes some inspiration from D&D, but what is common in D&D but rare in MtG, that might result in neat game changers?

I mean, if you go with game mechanics only, you can't KILL Planeswalkers unless they're the one you're dueling. Any they summon can only be driven off by beating them until they have no loyalty left. Since the players are the Planeswalkers whose life points are on the line, I guess Planeswalkers can kill Planeswalkers, but it takes massive wars to do so.

[Naanomi]

I mean, if you go with game mechanics only, you can't KILL Planeswalkers unless they're the one you're dueling. Any they summon can only be driven off by beating them until they have no loyalty left. Since the players are the Planeswalkers whose life points are on the line, I guess Planeswalkers can kill Planeswalkers, but it takes massive wars to do so.
Planeswalkers have been killed by less, a random street mugger killed (a depressed and unprepared) Sera (and there are a few cards that imply they kill the Planeswalker card, usually with the exile mechanic)

[Segev]

Planeswalkers have been killed by less, a random street mugger killed (a depressed and unprepared) Sera (and there are a few cards that imply they kill the Planeswalker card, usually with the exile mechanic)

That answers that, then!

[MoiMagnus]

Planeswalkers have been killed by less, a random street mugger killed (a depressed and unprepared) Sera (and there are a few cards that imply they kill the Planeswalker card, usually with the exile mechanic)

It's quite unlikely, though. Planeswalking away is a reflex for them when in life-threatening situation. (To the point that such life-threatening situation is often how they discover they are planeswalkers).

But yeah, since the Mending, planeswalkers can die like regular beings of their race. They go to the afterlife associated to the plane they're on when dying (e.g. if they die on Theros, they go into the Underworld). And they can get resurrected according to the usual rules of the plane.

[And for compatibility with D&D, I'm guessing that they go through the D&D afterlife only if the local MtG plane doesn't have an afterlife to catch their soul inside.]

In game, it is assumed they don't die but just get away to recover (and come back when you play another copy of the planewalker card).

[MinotaurWarrior]

Most MTG reanimation spells do not represent bringing a living being back to life (which is impossible on many planes) but rather are about summoning a new copy of that mana construct that just died. The main exception is Theros (where resurrection is a thing) and cards that have more nuance to their story (e.g. a spell that says "return target creature card from the graveyard to the battlefield. It is now a Zombie in addition to its other types" represents both the mana construct thing and animating a zombie).

MTG is so much more successful than DnD, has had a much more consistent setting and rules system over the decades, and is so deeply incompatible from a lore and story standpoint that I am sure this set (which is replacing a core set, not a normal expansion set) will be even more explicitly non canon than the mtg settings books, and will not be allowed to do any damage whatsoever to the mtg-verse.

[zinycor]

Awesome. I really loved the Ravnica setting and found theros to be a very good book, so this is cool sign of things to come.

[Spriteless]

Thrulls are made from dead flesh but are explicitly living creatures with Souls... their original creation by the Sarpadians was to have a source of easily bred and docile creatures to sacrifice in the practice of dark magic; something that wouldn't work with undead or constructs the same way

I mean, I don't keep up with this as you do, but I think if a card has a 'sacrifice creature' cost, you can sacrifice zombies, spirits, or artifact creatures and it is just as effective. And I always headcannoned that thrulls were undeads, but extra cheap, because so much goes off of the zombie keyword that you can't have cheap zombies after a certain point. (I have faced the zombie king casually, and been honest about the zombie in my own graveyard.) But, it is helpful to know that thrulls have souls, though. Perhaps no more than a saproling or a squirrel, but hey.

[Naanomi]

I mean, I don't keep up with this as you do, but I think if a card has a 'sacrifice creature' cost, you can sacrifice zombies, spirits, or artifact creatures and it is just as effective. And I always headcannoned that thrulls were undeads, but extra cheap, because so much goes off of the zombie keyword that you can't have cheap zombies after a certain point. (I have faced the zombie king casually, and been honest about the zombie in my own graveyard.) But, it is helpful to know that thrulls have souls, though. Perhaps no more than a saproling or a squirrel, but hey.
Yeah, it didn't translate perfectly into mechanics, to be sure... MtG doesn't track what creature types have souls and which don't. Flavor gets silly if we look at the events in games too hard