Im making a character for a gestalt game, what pairs well with a bard?

[Blazeteck]

Im playing a gestalt game in a few days and i have never in my life played a caster or overly social type character so i decided id try a bard. I didnt really want to deal with the bookkeeping of running two full on casters so i was looking for something that could take advantage of my high Cha, Dex and Int. The problem is im trying to also stay away from playing a melee focused character. This is my attempt to break away from my comfort zone of 'hand me a sword and point me in a general direction'. It would also be a bonus if it could somehow fit with the aesthetic my race which is the Sthein from Bastards and Bloodlines. They are a half elf/half naga hybrid thats always female and tends to be a studious and inquisitive race that goes to great lengths to learn new things.

The only stuff ive found that really fits this criteria seems to be Dragonfire Adept or a Warlock. I was contemplating the artificer from the eberron setting book. Are there any other options that i may have overlooked?

Also i know that most people dont care for a high LA race and all that but this isnt purely about optimization, its more about me enjoying weird ass races and role-playing them. my group, even with the games being gestalt, are usually a low power bunch anyways. not a lot of game breakers here.

any input would be appreciated.

[Thurbane]

If you're not looking to play a melee type (I would suggest Crusader if you were), then maybe Binder for versatility, or Dragonfire Adept.

[Blazeteck]

If you're not looking to play a melee type (I would suggest Crusader if you were), then maybe Binder for versatility, or Dragonfire Adept.

Havent seen Binder before. is it a 3rd party class?

[GrayDeath]

No, its in Tome of Magic.

Its a Class that bins vestiges of formerly powerful creatures to themselves, which they can change daily at the least.

Very flavourful and quite versatile.

My suggestion, if you want to avoid the CC problem would be to get the winged Template (LA +2), be a (maybe warforged^^) Dragonborn of Bahamut Bard//Scout.

Gives you attacks that get stronger when you move, a scaling breath Weapon, and Flight.

Very easy to handle most situations, and not complicated.

Warlock (my favourite 3.5 class) is of course also an option, if you dont want too much Dragon focus.

I would massively suggest to avoid Artificer as "doesnt play casters normally", as they are either extremely weak or (if you spend loads of detailed effort and have a lot of downtime) Scenario-breaking.

[Particle_Man]

The cloistered cleric is less martial and more knowledge based. The factotum uses bits of knowledge to various effects. Wizard or Wu Jen use intelligence to learn their spells.

[Thurbane]

Havent seen Binder before. is it a 3rd party class?

If you don't mind learning a new sub-system, Binder is pretty amazing, especially in gestalt. It will add a lot of versatility and options to a Bard character.

As GrayDeath said, you can find it in ToM (p.9).

[Edea]

I think the Binder runs on Constitution, but not enough for that to be a detriment to using it even if your score there's average; a lot of the vestiges have abilities which are score-agnostic. Agreed with investigating the Binder.

I would've initially suggested a Beguiler (Player's Handbook II), but you already mentioned maybe not wanting to run a full caster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you do pick Warlock, make the build go Warlock 20// Bard 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Bard 5. Everything you get from Enlightened Spirit is a different class feature from what the Warlock class progression grants, and everything will stack when it's taken along side of Warlock in a gestalt build. Even the eldritch blast damage is just bonus dice, not an advancement of the class feature, it doesn't even improve your caster level with it.

[Taffimai]

I have three further suggestions:

A) Marshal (Miniature's Handbook): it's a bit boring to play on its own, but as a gestalt with another charisma class I quite enjoy it

B) Beguiler (Player's Handbook II): a caster, but requires very little bookkeeping due to their particular casting mechanic, and a perfect fit thematically

C) Scout (Complete Adventurer): I'm a big fan of the skirmish mechanic, and if you're looking for something completely caster-free that doesn't play like a regular melee, this might float your boat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could go with Inspire Awe + Haunting Melody and pair it with anything that can do fear effects (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8759.0). Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner are highly recommended.

[Blazeteck]

I have three further suggestions:

A) Marshal (Miniature's Handbook): it's a bit boring to play on its own, but as a gestalt with another charisma class I quite enjoy it

B) Beguiler (Player's Handbook II): a caster, but requires very little bookkeeping due to their particular casting mechanic, and a perfect fit thematically

C) Scout (Complete Adventurer): I'm a big fan of the skirmish mechanic, and if you're looking for something completely caster-free that doesn't play like a regular melee, this might float your boat.

I was going to try to bard as it will be my first actual caster ive tried. I was trying to avoid having 2 casters for the fact that i feel the bookkeeping for 2 casters worth of spells will be a nightmare and doing spells for the day will be a daunting task.

It may just be that a second caster class is the better choice. i was initially trying to avoid having this be just another melee character for me and tried to make it a social caster type.

[Blazeteck]

I think the Binder runs on Constitution, but not enough for that to be a detriment to using it even if your score there's average; a lot of the vestiges have abilities which are score-agnostic. Agreed with investigating the Binder.

I would've initially suggested a Beguiler (Player's Handbook II), but you already mentioned maybe not wanting to run a full caster.

since I'm playing a Sthein, it being a LA 4 creature and having decent bonuses, my scoreline is fine. i had rolls of 18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 14 (My DM has a super lenient rolling rule. He has us reroll any 1's or 2's). After adding the stats from the race i came out with Str-16, Dex-16, Con-18, Int-17, Wis-16, Cha-22. Stats aren't really an issue.

ill definitely take a look at the binder. a lot have suggested it.

[Endarire]

A Marshal dip for Motivate Dexterity also helps.

+1 to Paladin of Freedom2 for +CHA bonus to all saves, and +1 to Crusader for more maneuvers. X to Y (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) helps, especially as the "add it to anything" stat that is CHA.

[Fouredged Sword]

Who am I playing again?
If you don't know what you want on the other side of the gestalt, I suggest you pick everything. Chameleon will let you swap out class features as you please.

Heart Stealer
Another good option, though it suffers from some degree of overlap is spellthief. It fills in the more rogue elements that Bard lacks and gives some more spellcasting from a different list. You can sneak attack people and steal spells from them that you can then cast. Solid arcane caster who can cast in light armor. If your DM is permissive the master spellthief feat could give you crazy high CLs.

Why do I have a party again?
Duskblade is also nice if you want to play Red Mage from final fantasy. You don't get very high casting of any sort, but you have very broad casting for offense, defense, healing, all the while having good skills and ability to mix it up in melee.

Oh, right, the party is awesome.
Sorcerer into War Weaver can also be a lot of fun. You are more of a pure caster, but your buff spells apply to the whole party. After War Weaver go into abjurant champion and make your whole party have AC that's untouchable. Pick up the healing hymn bard ACF and make your cure light wounds heal 1d6+30 or so to everyone in the party as a 1st level spell.

[Quertus]

Bard // _____ ?

You're accustomed to playing melee. You want to try your hand at casting.

I know you said "not melee", but… Paladin (of Freedom) / Crusader will give you…

Good HP

Good fort saves

A tactic to fall back on that you know you're comfortable with.

Between the HP and the "Charisma to Saves", you'll *almost* make up for the losses to both from crippling LA.

[rel]

Bard, no more spellcasting, ranged attacks, low op. Tricky.

Ranger maybe?

Take the champion of the wild ACF to replace spellcasting with more feats. That net's you full BAB, all good saves, reliable if minor extra damage from favored enemy and enough feat support to drill the archery tree pretty effectively.

You can take further ACF's to refine the build, dip fighter for even more feats or maybe take a PRC or two. Exotic weapon master 1 or peerless archer 3 are good options.

If you are considered elf enough, arcane archer might finally not be hilariously terrible.

[Gnaeus]

With the restrictions, I’ll take Quertus’ Paladin and raise you a Divine Mind.

No LG/CG restriction, pick a god you like
Still get Cha to saves, all good saves, D10s.
Auras let you add some more area buffing to your buffing.
You are psionic now, so grab a psi crystal. They are good for skill types.

Hexblade should also be considered.
No good fort save, which is sad, but Cha to saves versus spells and spell likes (so most saves you care about), mettle, and a bunch of bard friendly bonus feats and a free familiar for extra Skillmonkey.

[Blazeteck]

Bard, no more spellcasting, ranged attacks, low op. Tricky.

Ranger maybe?

Take the champion of the wild ACF to replace spellcasting with more feats. That net's you full BAB, all good saves, reliable if minor extra damage from favored enemy and enough feat support to drill the archery tree pretty effectively.

You can take further ACF's to refine the build, dip fighter for even more feats or maybe take a PRC or two. Exotic weapon master 1 or peerless archer 3 are good options.

If you are considered elf enough, arcane archer might finally not be hilariously terrible.

i have never played an arcane archer. are they really that terrible? my DM really likes them but hes also got a boner for anything Elf.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

i have never played an arcane archer. are they really that terrible? my DM really likes them but hes also got a boner for anything Elf.

In 3.0 an enhancement bonus on an arrow stacked with the enhancement bonus on your bow, so it was actually decent. In 3.5 those no longer stack, so you're better off casting Greater Magic Weapon on your bow every day and using mundane arrows. The Imbue Arrow feature at the 2nd class level is decent, but all the other special arrows are absolute garbage. It's basically a 2-level class, never worthwhile to gain more than that.

[Blazeteck]

In 3.0 an enhancement bonus on an arrow stacked with the enhancement bonus on your bow, so it was actually decent. In 3.5 those no longer stack, so you're better off casting Greater Magic Weapon on your bow every day and using mundane arrows. The Imbue Arrow feature at the 2nd class level is decent, but all the other special arrows are absolute garbage. It's basically a 2-level class, never worthwhile to gain more than that.

well, my DM doesnt care for a lot of the 3.5 rule changes and plays his games 3.0 as far as most mechanical rulings go. hed probably allow the arrow and bow enhancement to stack

[Efrate]

Marshall goes great with bard. Motivate charisma makes a lot of things amazing, and X to Y with motivated cha can give huge numbers.

Binders run on Cha technically but a lot of their abilities are stat agnostic. Narberus makes you the ultimate face. You get a ton of utility but lose in beatface ability.

You could go soulborn from magic of incarnum on one side if you want a bit of fun stuff and more combat utility and such. It's not great but as part of a gestalt you are fine.

If you could get dragon blooded at 1st level a dragonfire inspiration totemist//bard is a fantastic blender dealing absurd amount of energy damage on a whole suite of attacks.

A spell-less paladin of freedom also combos well with bard, or a crusader, if you want more less headache beatstickery.

DFA and warlock also combo well, as does nearly anything to be fair. How do you see your in combat role?

[Blazeteck]

Marshall goes great with bard. Motivate charisma makes a lot of things amazing, and X to Y with motivated cha can give huge numbers.

Binders run on Cha technically but a lot of their abilities are stat agnostic. Narberus makes you the ultimate face. You get a ton of utility but lose in beatface ability.

You could go soulborn from magic of incarnum on one side if you want a bit of fun stuff and more combat utility and such. It's not great but as part of a gestalt you are fine.

If you could get dragon blooded at 1st level a dragonfire inspiration totemist//bard is a fantastic blender dealing absurd amount of energy damage on a whole suite of attacks.

A spell-less paladin of freedom also combos well with bard, or a crusader, if you want more less headache beatstickery.

DFA and warlock also combo well, as does nearly anything to be fair. How do you see your in combat role?


Dragonfire inspiration totemist? define totemist.

Also if i wanted i could have the dragon blooded. draconic creature or half dragon templates would be an easy thing to pop on it. hes pretty accommodating as far as that kind of stuff goes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonfire inspiration totemist? define totemist.

Also if i wanted i could have the dragon blooded. draconic creature or half dragon templates would be an easy thing to pop on it. hes pretty accommodating as far as that kind of stuff goes.

Totemist is a new base class from Magic of Incarnum. It excels at making upwards of a dozen natural weapon attacks in a round, which goes great when you're adding about 5d6 fire or sonic damage to every attack from Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Blazeteck]

Totemist is a new base class from Magic of Incarnum. It excels at making upwards of a dozen natural weapon attacks in a round, which goes great when you're adding about 5d6 fire or sonic damage to every attack from Dragonfire Inspiration.

sir you have peaked my interest. not for this character but for my next build. i kinda have a thing for big beastly bastards attacking with tooth and claw. I even have the magic of incarnum, i just never read the darn thing. maybe i should actually make time to read these things a little instead of simply buying a small stack and tossing them into my collection.

[Endarire]

Totemist Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=583.0)

Another Totemist Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?287304-danzibr-s-Totemist-Handbook)

[Ramza00]

What level of game are we talking about?

[Telonius]

Personally I'd probably go for Warlock, mainly because I love playing scoundrel-ish characters. You could make an awesome diplomancer with that kind of setup. While combining the two classes doesn't get you anything from BAB, HP, or saves, Bard gives you a pile of skill points (that Warlock lacks), and Warlock gives you more offensive punch with Eldritch Blast (that's hard to achieve with just Bard). Fell Flight (one of the must-have invocations) can give you a method of flight, which Bard casting otherwise lacks.

If you take "The Dead Walk" invocation, you can re-create Thriller, which might be worth it just on its own.

[ElderDarren]

I really must second Telonius and the other people pushing warlock. Eldritch Blast is all day damage and not a lot of book keeping. One of the Forum members Troactid has a frankly amazing guide to them making life simpler if you're not used to casters. Their Invocations are more than decent, and when paired with the Bard's additional flexibility, you are well shaped to be one hell of a utility knife. I was playing a Barlock gestalt before the plague hit and it was unholy amounts of fun. The Eldritch Spear Blast shape let me stay out of range and Supernatural Transformation from Savage species meant no AoO or SR to get in its way. You won't be slinging Wizard levels of destruction around, but you've got them beat for stamina.

Edited for mispellings

[Blazeteck]

What level of game are we talking about?

Thats to be determined atm but im sure it will be a low lvl to start like maybe 3-5

[Maat Mons]

This will be the third time I start typing a reply. Hopefully, this time, I won't



So, you don't want the other side to be a caster. But you also don't want the other side to be a warrior. Casters and warriors are kind of the two main groups of classes. So that's pretty limiting.



Bard is kind of hard to work with in gestalt. It overlaps with almost everything. I think, for many purposes, a Sorcerer // Rogue would work better than a Bard // something. But you don't get Bardic Music without Bard. So if you're going Bard in gestalt, maybe lean heavily into Bardic Music?



It looks like the two best features of your race are the ability to switch between medium and large size, and getting all knowledge skills as class skills. Growing to large would almost seem to favor a melee lockdown build. But the effect doesn't change the size of your weapons.



You're playing a race with a +4 LA, so I'd hope the game is starting at 5th level or higher.

Do you know how your DM is ruling the interaction of LA and gestalt? If the LA goes on just one side, you should be fine.

Savage Bard would be nice for the good Fort save. The nature theme might even be appropriate.

When you get to level 10, if you decide you're really digging the spellcasting side of things, you should go into Sublime Chord. The only thing you'll need to do to qualify that you wouldn't have probably done anyway is take ranks in Profession (Astrologer).

Actually, you might want to decide before level 10. Sublime Chord is usually mixed with Virtuoso. And if doing that, it's advisable to start Virtuoso before Sublime Chord.



On the other hand, if you find casting too complex, or if you really want to play up that "learn all that is learnable" thing, you could always try a straight Bard with the Bardic Knack ACF and Jack of All Trades feat. Might be kind of fun.



The ennui, it's too strong. Must... upload... unfin-

[Endarire]

@OP: Inspire Courage Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8936.0)

JoshuaD's Bard Handbook (https://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/)

[GrayDeath]

Still support DFA or Warlock to be honest.

Its simply the be all end all of "I dont know which Gestalt Side to pick/Dont want to be useless", nothing offers more power and versatility with lesss Effort, which given you are new to the Caster role, is a point.

Also, restating my suggestion from above: (Dont know why you make your Char that strange race, if its PURE fluff, ignore my suggestion): Add Dragonborn of Bahamut.
it only costs you some Gold and non Stat bonus/Malus parts of your race (which btw I couldnt find except in PF, where it is NOT an LA +4 Race as PF doesnt have LA, looking by its abilities I would rate it as either LA +1 or +2 to be honest) and grants you either Flight, a breath Weapon or nice Immunities.

If not that, think about adding Winged to your other Half (passable Stat Bonuses and PERFECT maneuverability Flight), as it saves you an Invocation.


Assuming I would be playing that Character, and starting Level was 8 (not much sense in starting with 4 L otherwise) I`d probably build it something like this:

Heart Dragonborn Sthein LA+2/5 Levels Warlock/1 Level Crusader (for 3 healing Maneuvers)//Winged LA +2/6Levels Bard.

Would make a nicely flexible, Socially oriented Character without any actual Weaknesses.

[Bphill561]

Okay, i am going to mess things up with a double bard suggestion.

Bard 20//LA4/Marshal 1/ Fighter 2/ Open 1/ Spell Dancer 2/Sublime Chord 10

Get your full bard casting with bardic music. Marshal to add Cha to all Cha skill skills a second time. Fighter for Dodge and Mobility bonus feats to get in Spell Dancer. Spell dancer for free metamagic. Sublime chord will give you a second set of Bard spell slots and spells known up to 9th, you can pull spells off the sorcerer list as well. It is more spells, but you will be focusing pretty much on the same list. Sublime chord caster level is SC+one other casting classes level, pick bard ;-) You could always ask you DM to let you combine the slots if he is open to some custom. Also Sublime chord has more bardic music opitions.

Dragon magazine 310 has fighter.varients that include the pugilist which losses shields but gets unarmed strike and endurance. Endurance is another spell dancer feat prereq.

I would write more but on my cell phone.

[Blazeteck]

This will be the third time I start typing a reply. Hopefully, this time, I won't



So, you don't want the other side to be a caster. But you also don't want the other side to be a warrior. Casters and warriors are kind of the two main groups of classes. So that's pretty limiting.



Bard is kind of hard to work with in gestalt. It overlaps with almost everything. I think, for many purposes, a Sorcerer // Rogue would work better than a Bard // something. But you don't get Bardic Music without Bard. So if you're going Bard in gestalt, maybe lean heavily into Bardic Music?



It looks like the two best features of your race are the ability to switch between medium and large size, and getting all knowledge skills as class skills. Growing to large would almost seem to favor a melee lockdown build. But the effect doesn't change the size of your weapons.



You're playing a race with a +4 LA, so I'd hope the game is starting at 5th level or higher.

Do you know how your DM is ruling the interaction of LA and gestalt? If the LA goes on just one side, you should be fine.

Savage Bard would be nice for the good Fort save. The nature theme might even be appropriate.

When you get to level 10, if you decide you're really digging the spellcasting side of things, you should go into Sublime Chord. The only thing you'll need to do to qualify that you wouldn't have probably done anyway is take ranks in Profession (Astrologer).

Actually, you might want to decide before level 10. Sublime Chord is usually mixed with Virtuoso. And if doing that, it's advisable to start Virtuoso before Sublime Chord.



On the other hand, if you find casting too complex, or if you really want to play up that "learn all that is learnable" thing, you could always try a straight Bard with the Bardic Knack ACF and Jack of All Trades feat. Might be kind of fun.



The ennui, it's too strong. Must... upload... unfin-

Ive only ever played gestalt with this group so what i know of it is how they play it. how i was told that they do it is that the LA gets cut in half and applied to both sides so as an LA4 it will be 2 LA for each of the two gestalted classes so i would start as a lvl3/lvl3 in a game starting at 5.

i was definitely thinking of going hard on the bardic music. The race was simply because i like RPing as odd **** and this one was definitely unique in how they would go about life, purely just me having a preference for dumb **** so im not overly worried if it cant be optimized to the nines. i was thinking i was gonna be more of a face character and buffer type character.

i will say that the setting has been a bit more fleshed out now by my DM and its an odd setting in the underdark with drow and we are works as a part of the drow either as being a drow ourselves or for the virtue of being elves/half-elven, so make of that what you will. The idea that i come up with up to now was to play a bard/artificer and using the bard abilities to get close to the right people who have power or money and use them to further my own goals and endeavors as an artificer and for lack of a better way of putting it "channel my inner gold digger to get what i want".

there has been a lot of good suggestions on here so far and ive looked into a lot of what others have said, like the binder for one, and it was some interesting stuff but in all honesty things like the binder and totemist seemed like something you would need to know about pretty well to play effectively and didnt really fit the "charismatic buffer/utility" type of character i was wanting to try for.

also, someone asked about level and all i know atm moment is that im going to be starting at a low level so with my LA ill probaly be between lvls 1-3

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, can you buy off a level adjustment (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) in this game? If so, would a +4 LA applied to both sides be bought off as though it were a +2 LA? If so, don't start with more than a +2 LA (effectively +1) so you can begin play with it already bought off. You'll be a level behind the rest of the party, but you should gain more xp per encounter and eventually catch back up. If it can't be bought off, don't play a level adjusted race at all.

You'll be in the underdark, this is a perfect time to try out a Deepwyrm Drow or Half-Drow, from the book Dragon Magic. You're basically a drow or half-drow with a deep dragon ancestor, gaining the dragonblood subtype and some slightly different racial traits. Half-Drow are like standard half-elves but get darkvision 60 ft., they're in Races of Faerun. There's also the Lesser Drow in PGtF p191 which has no LA.

You've got some absurdly good stats, and considering you want to be a manipulator/support build I'd honestly just pair Bard with Sorcerer. Prioritize Cha > Dex > Con > all else, take Dragonfire Inspiration, and trade some songs out: Countersong for Spellbreaker Song (CM), Fascinate for Healing Hymn (CC), and Suggestion for Song of the Heart (ECS). Instead of Spellbreaker Song use the Half-Elf Bard 1 substitution level in RotD if you go Deepwyrm Half-Drow. Also take the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level to get Draconic Heritage instead of a familiar, but skip the other substitution levels. This switches the damage type of your Dragonfire Inspiration, anything that gives sonic damage is ideal but picking Deep Dragon for acid damage is still an improvement and it's in-character.

Feats definitely need to include Melodic Casting, and Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is never a bad choice, but Obtain Familiar (CA) + Improved Familiar (DMG, CW) is also pretty good. You want to go something like Sorcerer 5/ Mindbender 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Sorcerer 12// Bard 8/ Dragon Devotee 1/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Virtuoso 9. With that many Sorcerer levels, you may even want to use Stalwart Sorcerer in CM to get +2 hp per Sorcerer level. Your Paragnostic Apostle abilities should be Spatial Awareness and Mind Over Matter. You definitely want to get Mindsight from LoM p126 as well.

For gear, get a Badge of Valor in MIC p208 to improve your inspire courage. Get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend for buffs/debuffs. A custom Runestaff (MIC p224) is highly recommended but easily game breaking. Get an elvencraft bow from RotW which can also function as a melee weapon, a shortbow is also a club so it's two weapons and a longbow is also a quarterstaff so it's three weapons. Each portion needs to be made masterwork and enchanted separately, but it can also contain as many wand chambers. Otherwise the necessary magic items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) that your spells aren't going to cover is a good place to find gear. Wands are good for utility spells, and Eternal Wands in MIC are good for spells not on any of your class lists like Hound of Doom in CW.

Your Sorcerer spells should focus on buffs, debuffs, crowd controls, and utility. Have Mage Armor and later Greater Mage Armor, Heart of Water in CM and possibly the others in that line, Haste, etc. For crowd controls, Wall of Smoke does the same thing as Stinking Cloud when it's cast across opponents' occupied spaces, Color Spray is strong early game, Web and Glitterdust stay good for quite a long time, Blindness/Deafness can shut down an enemy with poor Fort saves, Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles, and Solid Fog make substantial obstacles, Ray of Dizziness and Ray of Light don't allow any saving throws, etc. Ray of Stupidity automatically disables anything with animal intelligence and can take down a dumb bruiser-type enemy quickly, Mindsight helps finding good targets for that. Wings of Cover in RotD is an absolute must-have, and Wings of Flurry in that same book doesn't have a caster level limit on how high it scales. If you find yourself with a lot of ray spells, Split Ray is a good choice, and a Lesser Rod of Maximize to make your Split Ray of Dizziness deal 10 Int damage will one-shot high-hp opponents, since dropping to Int 0 puts them in a coma. Definitely get (Greater) Dispel Magic, Teleport, Overland Flight, Greater Invisibility, and any other standard must-have spells, but also Arcane Turmoil in CM is good, Benign Transposition helps with positioning, and never go without Command Undead considering it's an iwin button against mindless opponents (but don't waste it on something weak).

[Vaern]

Gestalt Bard/Divine Bard.

Anything that scales with charisma will work well for you as a bard. Sorcerer is always good for raw spellpower, though you can gain access to that spell list through prestige classes. Lyric Thaumaturge can add some wiz/sor spells to the low end of your spell list, while Sublime Chord gives you spells of 4th through 9th level from the bard and wiz/sor spell lists which means they technically gain access to 7th, 8th, and 9th level bard spells. (I mean, I mention this as a joke, but I did once have a DM let me use the rules for developing new spells to learn Heal has a Bard 7 spell).
Cleric might work well if you were willing to invest in divine feats. Your spellcasting won't be impressive without wis, but my personal favorite healing build involves focusing on feats like Sacred Healing [Complete Divine] and Sacred Purification [PHB2] to burn daily uses of Turn Undead for healing power. Charisma gives you additional uses of turn undead and both of these feats scale with charisma, so this route kind of lets you double-dip into your ability score bonuses.
Favored Soul might be a better divine option, as spellcasting power scales with charisma (though the spells you can cast are still restricted by wisdom). You lose Turn Undead for spontaneous casting, though, so the divine feat shenanigans I suggested before are not an option here. You also trade away the cleric's ability to spontaneously cast cure/harm spells, meaning you need to devote some of your precious spells known to healing if you intend to play a support-type character (which I'm assuming is the case, as you aren't looking to be either a blaster or a frontline warrior).
Rogue might work for you as a less magical support roll. Just focus on being a skillmonkey rather than focusing on the backstab-y, assassin-y aspects of the class. You mentioned having high int and cha, so rogue/bard will get you just about all of the skills you'll ever need with a few ways to further enhance them (especially social skills).

[GrayDeath]

Just reiterating: If you thought playing a Binder or Totemnist required good Knowledge, please reconsider Artificer.

its really only a worthwhile class if at least 2 of the following 3 prerequisites are fulfilled:
1.: LOTS of Downtime
2.: GM is not restrictive regarding Crafting/players having agenda
3.: The Player really knows what he`s doing.

Trust me, my first time as an artificer (and I was a pretty experienced D&D Caster player) taught me to always counsel "Lots of prep and knowlegede" whenever someone thinks about playing the class.


Also, you can be that strange Race or does your DM force you to be Elf/Halfelf?

And out of curiosity: What of my Warlock/Bard Suggestion didnt fit a charismatic manipulator?
You would be that, and able to heal via hitting things, and able to fly, and breath fire. ^^

[Ramza00]

I would go Favored Soul, Regular Cleric, Spontaneous Cleric (using the UA version), or Cloistered Cleric with Spontaneous Cleric rules.

Pick spells that have a 10 min / level, 1 hour / level, or 24 hour casting duration. There are plenty of these spells on the cleric list such as

Lets boost those Saves and AC, with a little attack plus damage boost on the side.


Tyche Touch 2nd level, 24 hour duration, touch, gain a +4 sacred bonus to all saves. Once you make a save it goes to +3, then +2, then +1, then the spell is dispelled. But since the spell lasts 24 hours you can easily keep it up all the time even at HD 3. (Also it makes a great party wand in case you have a really bad day and you want some extra castings.)

Benediction 2nd level, 10 min per level (thus 1 hour at HD06, and 2 hours with a rod of extend lesser), Ally (not you) via touch gets a +2 luck boost to saves. Ally can dispel it as a free action to get a luck reroll to any a single attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check.

Conviction, 1st level, (Mass Conviction 3rd level), 10 min per level, +2 moral bonus to saving throws, +3 at CL6, +4 CL12, +5 CL18.

Magic Vestment is 3rd level and 1 hour per level and gives you more AC (especially since you can do it twice per character one on armor one on weapon.) Greater Magic Weapon gives more attack and damage and is also 1 hour per level and is your 4th level slot.

This is not a comprehensive list but you get the idea.

Do not Forget Skill Checks


Lore of the Gods, 2nd level, 10 min per level. +5 Insight to All Knowledge Checks, but +10 Insight if you worship a Knowledge God even if you do not have the Knowledge Domain.

(Temporary Buffs, not long lasting but they make skill checks effortless.) Guidance of the Avatar 2nd level (+20 competence bonus to a single skill.) , Divine Insight 2nd level - insight bonus of 5 + caster level (max bonus +15) to any skill.

-----

As you can see it is quite easy with Cleric to get 10 min per level, 1 hour per level, and 24 hours per level spells that you buff prior to combat and these spells last several hours (especially with rods of extend lesser), and you can use these spells on yourself or be friends to your allies and cast them on your allies.

Choose Favored Soul or Spontaneous Cleric and the book keeping is minimal. You are not overwhelmed with choices, you just trust in the boards to make a spell load out to follow. Furthermore Favored Soul / Spontaneous Cleric allows you to have magic items on hand to take care of the worse status things in case you need a healer. (This is one case a prepared caster instead of spontaneous is superior, if they leave a spell slot open they can ask their god to fill that empty spell slot within 10 minutes of that unique healing spell to get rid of the poison, or the curse, or the negative levels and so on.)

[Blazeteck]

Just reiterating: If you thought playing a Binder or Totemnist required good Knowledge, please reconsider Artificer.

its really only a worthwhile class if at least 2 of the following 3 prerequisites are fulfilled:
1.: LOTS of Downtime
2.: GM is not restrictive regarding Crafting/players having agenda
3.: The Player really knows what he`s doing.

Trust me, my first time as an artificer (and I was a pretty experienced D&D Caster player) taught me to always counsel "Lots of prep and knowlegede" whenever someone thinks about playing the class.


Also, you can be that strange Race or does your DM force you to be Elf/Halfelf?

And out of curiosity: What of my Warlock/Bard Suggestion didnt fit a charismatic manipulator?
You would be that, and able to heal via hitting things, and able to fly, and breath fire. ^^

If i wanted to i could be a regular drow, elf or half-elf. Im being that race simply because its what i want to play. i want the challenge of RPing as it, it seems neat.

If you saw my original post i had said i was considering Warlock and Dragonfire Adept at first but im simply not as knowledgable as most about what classes there are. Warlock was probably gonna be a go to if not the artificer. I just kind of had a neat idea for the crazy inventor type so thats why i was leaning artificer.

[GrayDeath]

Well, to put it simply, if you think cafeully enough about which Invocations to take (and ideally use my Race Mod Suggestions, its even weirder afterwards so RPing might be cool as well) you gain THE CLass that ALWAYS can contribute in D&D bar none.

Now will the Warlock be the BEST at something? Likely not (unless the group is very unoptimized, or has no other ranged DD), but the at Willness is cool, the Eldritch Blast always useful for those heavily armored Dragons/Golems/etc, and it synergizes well with Bard.

if you make your Race Dragonborn (its a template, and one that can be bought to boot, jsut requires you to be non Evil) you can add to that a brath Weapon.

And if you reach level 12, the Warlock can be a Mini Artificer without all the bookkeping/being useless without Downtime.

Now youc an be an Inventor with many a class, but if you go Artificer that is going to be THE central thing about you.

Your decision if thats what you want, I warned about the potential problems.

In case you have further questions, I am always willing to answer. :)