9ths at lvl 1

[Raishoiken]

So i saw a thread awhile back on this topic involving elven generalist and domain wizard along with some other things along with a debate about whether or not it worked. Does anyone have any insight into this combo?

That aside, any other methods of this hackery that arent a candle of invocation?


edit: for thought's sake not gameplay

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's not...exactly the same thing, but you can go from level 1 to epic in a couple of days, if you do it right.


At level 1, take a level of wizard and Precocious Apprentice (Ray of Stupidity), along with Sanctum Spell and Forceful Magic (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Forceful_Magic). Kill some small animals for XP, then make a few 0-level scrolls of ray of stupidity via Sanctum Spell and Forceful Magic. Now go find some elephants. Knock 'em out with ray of stupidity; it's a ranged touch attack which will hardly ever miss, and the chance of hitting and not insta-K.O.ing them is completely nil. You should be able to level up to mid-levels in just a few rounds (one level per elephant, and one elephant per round). Once you have access to planar binding, call up a genie and use a wish for a thought bottle that's attuned to you and is filled with enough XP to get you to whatever level you want.

Alternatively, wish for an empty thought bottle, and use Extra Spell to get greater restoration and curse of lycanthropy (https://dndtools.net/spells/complete-divine--56/curse-of-lycanthropy--719/). Cast curse of lycanthropy on yourself for a high HD lycanthropy strain (such as elephantitis), hit yourself with some negative levels (waiting long enough to make them permanent), then cast greater restoration on yourself. This will reset your XP to incorporate the LA and RHD of yourself with the lycanthropy strain. Now store your XP in the thought bottle, break curse of lycanthropy via break enchantment and restore your previous XP level from the thought bottle. This will allow you to gain a ton of levels very fast, and it's repeatable!

[Zanos]

Yeah, so they idea is that you take Elven Generalist, which grants a bonus spell slot of the highest level can cast, and Domain Wizard, which grants a bonus domain slot and the domain slots as a spell known as soon as you become able to cast them. I forget how you qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, i think they're might be another feat you can take? Anyway, then you sacrifice two level 1 slots to cast a 2nd level spell you know. Since you can cast 2nd level spells, you automatically know your 2nd level domain spell. Since you have 2nd level spells, your elven generalist slot moves to the highest level you can cast. So now you have a 2nd level elven generalist slot and a 2nd level domain slot, which you can sacrifice using versatile spellcaster to cast a 3rd level spell. You then chain this combo up to 9ths.

There's a couple reasons I don't think this works. There's some arguments about minimum caster level I don't think hash out by RAW, but the big argument against it is that versatile spellcaster lets you sacrifice slots to cast a spell that you know, and you don't know your domain spells until you can cast a 2nd level spell. So the trick relies on circular reasoning.

[ixrisor]

Versatile spellcaster could allow you to apply a +1 heighten, then you can cast a level+1 spell so you get the slot from domain wizard

[Raishoiken]

so it seems as if one nit pick objection to the elven generalist + domain wizard thing is that since racial substitutions technically say you take in lieu of the standard class; domain wizard, being a variant, doesn't technically qualify?

[Ruethgar]

Sculpt Self for spells cast by an epic Mind Mage. Once cast, a 9th level spell can theoretically be reduced to a level negative 14 spell or something like that if it was Circle Magic cast by an Illumian Earth mage. Caught by a Spellhaording dragon and copied by Archivists and StP Erudites. Psychic Adepts technically have access to all potential StP Erudite spell powers, though with a max number known of 12 and level 5 it’s a bit more than a little limiting. Similarly, the psionic extra powers feat isn’t as limited as extra spells known and can pick them up.

If only Candle of Invocation is off the table, but other wishes aren’t, Pazuzu is summonable by a level one, that’s kinda the whole point of Pun Pun.

Ways to get 9th via wish, the one that pops to mind was wish to be a Spellweaver, then wish to be a Titanic(Optionally: Dungeonbred War Magebred Intensified)Awakened Monkey/Cat/Lizard/Rat/Toad. That puts you at 27RHD iirc, and because you only gain, but do not lose, natural abilities via wish race change, you keep the HD+2 sorcerer spellcasting from Spellweaver. Oh, and you’re also ECL 0.

Faerun’s ECL lowering thing that’s basically -1 to everything you do per LA could allow you some liberties. Let’s see, White Dragonspawn Abomination on a Human Heritage Loredrake Silver Dragon Hatchling(or DWK if you want to fight people) would put you at only casting of a 9th level sorcerer, 10 if it was your first level. Not quite there, double wish for +3 and we’re still 5 off.

Technically incantations are castable by anyone. A Wondrous Architecture 5ft Rune Circle of Guidance of the Avatar can get you to use it. Similarly, that rune circle could let you grow a wish fern with some degree of success.

[Kayblis]

This is based on a wrong reading of Versatile Spellcaster. Basically, the author "assumes"(T/N: makes up) that Versatile Spellcaster is stackable with itself and gives you a free slot when used, and then chains itself 8 times in a row to get a 9th level slot.

Versatile Spellcaster is simple - you use two slots of level X to cast a spell of level X+1. It doesn't override the spellcasting rules, but you may argue that it allows for a Wizard to spontaneously convert two slots into one spell(as it states "cast", not "prepare"), or that it requires the usual preparation(so following Wizard spellcasting, and you'd prepare two 1st-level slots as one "Web" spell). Neither of these readings give you a free slot, although they activate Elven Generalist and give you a higher slot(for the sake of the argument, you're lv1 and get a 2nd level slot). Assume you have higher lv spells scribed in your book, or that you're using Heighten to get around the 'spell you know' limitation.

What happens next? Well, you're a 1st-level Wizard with one 2nd-level slot. You spent two feats for that. Congratulations. You can't use the spell from Versatile Spellcaster as if it were a 2nd-level slot, because it isn't. This is not in the rules anywhere. This is just made up. You spent 2 1st-level slots to prepare a 2nd-level spell. You still have 2 1st level slots, tied together holding a 2nd level spell. You don't get free slots. If you argue for the spontaneous conversion side, you STILL don't have a 2nd-level slot, you just spent 2 1st-level slots to cast a higher level spell. Sure, this trick will give you [One spell slot one level higher than your usual max], but that's it. You could do the same with Earth Spell and Generalist Wizard, and hell, if you really wanted to you could spend all your feats up to 6th level on 'spell level shenanigans' and have a single slot 2 or 3 levels higher than usual because Elven Generalist is kinda dumb, but it in no way grants anything close to 9th-level spells before the midgame.

[Troacctid]

Kayblis is 100% correct. There's no universe in which Versatile Spellcaster works that way.

The version I heard used Extra Slot with some similar methods of questionable legality, but even then, it was part of a thought experiment where you had infinite feats, and it would not be possible with the normal amount of feats allotted to a level 1 character, with flaws and everything, even if you allowed the rules to work that way.

If you want 9ths at level 1, your best bet is to spend a long, long time earning money until you can afford an item to cast whatever spell you're looking for.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want 9ths at level 1, your best bet is to spend a long, long time earning money until you can afford an item to cast whatever spell you're looking for.Or just look for all the sourcebooks that give new cantrips, start as a level 1 wizard with a 20+ Int, sell your bloated spellbook, and buy something pretty for yourself. *headpat*

Alternately, do the same with an archivist and his prayerbook.

[Elves]

We did this whole thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?597394-Viability-of-Elf-Generalist-Wizard-Domain-Wizard-quot-Leapfrog-quot-combo-(cont-from-2016)/page7) last year, I wouldn't wish it on anybody to read through it, but it seems like it could be done using a Faustian Pact from Fiendish Codex II. IIRC it came down to an issue of how to parse "Abilities and Spellcasters" on PHB p7:


In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.)

It seems to me that this is not primary rules text but a summary that then directs you to the primary rules text in chapter 3. But some people read it as primary rules text establishing a general rule that to cast a spell you must be of high enough level [to be granted a spell slot of that level by your class]. I don't think that's a strong interpretation because part of their reading is implied -- the sentence isn't grammatically sufficient to make it function in the way they want, which seems like evidence for the other reading. Which means if you can get hold of the 9th-level slot by other means such as the Pact, there's no required class level to cast it, though IIRC you still need a sufficient caster level. Getting +16 CL at 1st level would still be a big challenge.

[Raishoiken]

This is based on a wrong reading of Versatile Spellcaster. Basically, the author "assumes"(T/N: makes up) that Versatile Spellcaster is stackable with itself and gives you a free slot when used, and then chains itself 8 times in a row to get a 9th level slot.

stuff about versatile spellcaster breaking this.



i'm not entirely worried about versatile spellcaster quite yet, although having it be a broken link in the chain is important to note

my primary worry is whether or not elven generalist and domain wizard are even (technically) allowed to stack by raw. since all the stuff about "replacing", "in exchange for" and similar language are all in sections before the actual game rule info for the abilities gained, among other issues

[newguydude1]

just make a deal with a devil for an extra spell slot. there are no guidelines for that spell slot so just say you got a 9th level spell slot.

[Elves]

just make a deal with a devil for an extra spell slot. there are no guidelines for that spell slot so just say you got a 9th level spell slot.

You need to get +16 CL to use it at level 1 though per PHB 171.

[Raishoiken]

so looking over the other variant classes it would seem at the surface level elven generalist [i]technically[\i] would stack with domain wizard, sine domain wizard (unlike other variants) doesn't [i]actually[\i] mention the explicit loss of the specialization feature, merely that you... don't do it, which sets you up for generalist

[Darg]

The bonus slots from specialist/generalist and domain are based on spell level not the level at which you can cast something.

[Ruethgar]

You need to get +16 CL to use it at level 1 though per PHB 171.

ONLY fireball has been defined as having a minimum CL, no others are defined.


The version I heard used Extra Slot with some similar methods of questionable legality, but even then, it was part of a thought experiment where you had infinite feats, and it would not be possible with the normal amount of feats allotted to a level 1 character, with flaws and everything, even if you allowed the rules to work that way.

Necropolitian Magic Blooded Elf Wizard sacrifices people for Miracles to Chaos Shuffle on their 4 racial feats, has 2 flaws, 3 from taint, 1 from veneration of an elder evil, contracts with someone who has Mercantile Background to sell their soul for +3 faustian. Sanctum, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Heighten, Precocious. Extra Slot x8. One 9th level slot to get Extra Spell for.

[Elves]

ONLY fireball has been defined as having a minimum CL, no others are defined.
That's being willfully thick. There's a difference between the case I quoted above, where the wording is not sufficient to contain a certain interpretation, and a case where the rule is not explicitly stated but can be easily inferred from the example given.

[Ruethgar]

Doh! I forgot Circle Magic is a feat. That can allow a level one to qualify for Extra Slot and Extra Spell on 9th level spells. If you could do the Faerunian version it would be better but still nice.

[Raishoiken]

Doh! I forgot Circle Magic is a feat. That can allow a level one to qualify for Extra Slot and Extra Spell on 9th level spells. If you could do the Faerunian version it would be better but still nice.

don't you have to have one of two prestige classes in order to lead a circle though?

[Ruethgar]

Not with the feat from Ghostwalk.

[Troacctid]

ONLY fireball has been defined as having a minimum CL, no others are defined.
Not true. The item creation rules define a minimum caster level for all core classes at all spell levels.

[Raishoiken]

Not with the feat from Ghostwalk.
less stronk but WAY easier to access. hot

[newguydude1]

minimum caster level is well defined for all base classes.

the only place its up for debate is prcs like sublime chord.

anyone who tries to argue pure wizard spells dont have minimum caster level is being irrational because it breaks a lot of the tricks they want.

[Ruethgar]

Please provide a citation for the minimum caster level being defined for each spell. I have only ever seen fireball in relevant text.

This also brings the question, if you are a level one spellcaster with Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell, Improved Sigil Krau, Primitive Caster(RoF) and Earth Spell, how many can you use assuming you only have 1 CL?

[Bucky]

In addition to the concerns about Versatile Spellcaster and minimum caster level, I would also rule that elven generalist only grants a single bonus slot which changes level depending on your casting ability. So once you've spent it as a level 1 slot, it's gone until you recover spell slots even if it becomes a level 2 slot in the middle.

[newguydude1]

Please provide a citation for the minimum caster level being defined for each spell. I have only ever seen fireball in relevant text.

This also brings the question, if you are a level one spellcaster with Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell, Improved Sigil Krau, Primitive Caster(RoF) and Earth Spell, how many can you use assuming you only have 1 CL?

r u ignoring troactid?
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingScrolls
Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
0 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP —
1st 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 25 gp +1 XP 25 gp +2 XP
2nd 75 gp +6 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP
3rd 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 225 gp +18 XP 262 gp 5 sp +21 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP
4th 350 gp +28 XP 400 gp +32 XP 500 gp +40 XP 350 gp +28 XP
5th 562 gp 5 sp +45 XP 625 gp +50 XP 812 gp 5 sp +65 XP —
6th 826 gp +66 XP 900 gp +72 XP 1,200 gp +96 XP —
7th 1,135 gp 5 sp +91 XP 1,225 gp +98 XP — —
8th 1,500 gp +120 XP 1,600 gp +128 XP — —
9th 1,912 gp 5 sp +153 XP 2, 025 gp +162 XP — —

Caster level is half class level.

Costs assume that the creator makes the scroll at the minimum caster level.

[Darg]

If one really wants proof of minimum caster level, Precocious Apprentice flat out says that one normally wouldn't be able to cast the second level spell without the appropriate caster level.


Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances.
When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would.
Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.

Exceptions to any general rule can exist. This is why Versatile Spellcaster is often used to cast spells one normally wouldn't be able to. It provides an exception by allowing you to cast a spell you know rather than just a spell you can cast. Another funny quirk is that metamagics cast the spell at the modified level rather than just occupying the spell slot. This has the ramification of increasing the minimum caster level and the DC concentration checks. Otherwise, Versatile Spellcaster would allow anyone with the heighten spell feat to apply any metamagic they want to any spell for only the cost of an extra spell slot.

[Blue Jay]

r u ignoring troactid?
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingScrolls
Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
0 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP —
1st 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 25 gp +1 XP 25 gp +2 XP
2nd 75 gp +6 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP
3rd 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 225 gp +18 XP 262 gp 5 sp +21 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP
4th 350 gp +28 XP 400 gp +32 XP 500 gp +40 XP 350 gp +28 XP
5th 562 gp 5 sp +45 XP 625 gp +50 XP 812 gp 5 sp +65 XP —
6th 826 gp +66 XP 900 gp +72 XP 1,200 gp +96 XP —
7th 1,135 gp 5 sp +91 XP 1,225 gp +98 XP — —
8th 1,500 gp +120 XP 1,600 gp +128 XP — —
9th 1,912 gp 5 sp +153 XP 2, 025 gp +162 XP — —

Caster level is half class level.

Costs assume that the creator makes the scroll at the minimum caster level.

I don't know: I agree with you that "minimum CL" is obviously RAI; but if it were really "well-defined", then you'd probably be citing the primary section for rules about caster level (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel), and not a tangential reference to it from a section about a peripherally related subject.

The primary "caster level" section (linked above) does have the following line:


"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level."

From text like that, it's pretty clear that the writers envisioned a "minimum caster level" as part of the spellcasting rules, but they didn't spell it out very clearly, which leaves it open for the kinds of willful misinterpretations that fuel TO shenanigans.