A different type of Gish

[jaappleton]

So often I see people build gishes, blending sword with sorcery (so to speak, not necessarily picking the Sorcerer class), and they typically focus on offensive spells and, of course, Haste to boost their own damage output.

This leads typically to a blend of Paladin for Smites to increase weapon attack damage output, and often Sorcerer due to stat synergy. However, I've certain seen Paladin and Bladesinger as well from time to time, and occasionally Bard in the mix as well. These builds can often attack multiple times and can easily toss out things like Fireball for large crowds of enemies, capable of handling many scenarios for combat.

Why don't I ever see gishes that increase healing and buffing? Where's the gish that can strike multiple enemies, for nice damage, and toss out the Mass Cure Wounds to keep everyone upright?

Is it stat synergy? Is it because offensive damage output is cooler to do? Because dead enemies can't cause damage? Because damage output outpaces healing?

[1Pirate]

"Support" gishes already exist, we just tend to call them "clerics"

[Unoriginal]

So often I see people build gishes, blending sword with sorcery (so to speak, not necessarily picking the Sorcerer class), and they typically focus on offensive spells and, of course, Haste to boost their own damage output.

This leads typically to a blend of Paladin for Smites to increase weapon attack damage output, and often Sorcerer due to stat synergy. However, I've certain seen Paladin and Bladesinger as well from time to time, and occasionally Bard in the mix as well. These builds can often attack multiple times and can easily toss out things like Fireball for large crowds of enemies, capable of handling many scenarios for combat.

Why don't I ever see gishes that increase healing and buffing? Where's the gish that can strike multiple enemies, for nice damage, and toss out the Mass Cure Wounds to keep everyone upright?

Is it stat synergy? Is it because offensive damage output is cooler to do? Because dead enemies can't cause damage? Because damage output outpaces healing?

Apparently people aren't fond of [martial class]/Cleric multiclassing.

Or they just don't find it fitting the "gish" mold and call it something else.

[jaappleton]

"Support" gishes already exist, we just tend to call them "clerics"

HA!

They can't crack heads quite as well as others, though.

I'd be quite curious to see, if you let a Paladin key off Wisdom, or if Rangers got a smite-like effect at early levels, would you see this more support / healing oriented Gish more paired with Cleric? I know Fey Wanderer gets a sort of Smite but not until 7th level, that's quite a few levels in IMO for most Gish builds.

[Unoriginal]

They can't crack heads quite as well as others, though.

So you're saying they'll fit right in among most gishes?



I'd be quite curious to see, if you let a Paladin key off Wisdom, or if Rangers got a smite-like effect at early levels, would you see this more support / healing oriented Gish more paired with Cleric? I know Fey Wanderer gets a sort of Smite but not until 7th level, that's quite a few levels in IMO for most Gish builds.

Dunno about that, I think most gish enthusiast just aren't into the whole healing and buffing thing. But now I kinda want to see if a Celestial Bladelock (maybe with some Divine Sorcerer) would work.

[jaappleton]

So you're saying they'll fit right in among most gishes?



Dunno about that, I think most gish enthusiast just aren't into the whole healing and buffing thing. But now I kinda want to see if a Celestial Bladelock (maybe with some Divine Sorcerer) would work.

Can't rely on Eldritch Smite because its once per turn and falls behind AoE spells like Fireball. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a way to stay competitive with other gish builds and NOT include Paladin.

[Aett_Thorn]

HA!

They can't crack heads quite as well as others, though.

I'd be quite curious to see, if you let a Paladin key off Wisdom, or if Rangers got a smite-like effect at early levels, would you see this more support / healing oriented Gish more paired with Cleric? I know Fey Wanderer gets a sort of Smite but not until 7th level, that's quite a few levels in IMO for most Gish builds.

Arcana Clerics can actually do quite well at this, if they pick up Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade as one of their Wizard cantrips at 1st level. Pair that with a few levels in Fighter for Action Surge, and you'll be just fine. Or, if you want to skip arcane cantrips, pairing Cleric and Ranger (or the old version of the Blood Hunter that was based on Wisdom instead of Int) works well.

I could also see a Divine Soul Sorc/Fighter combo working fairly well for this.

[jaappleton]

Arcana Clerics can actually do quite well at this, if they pick up Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade as one of their Wizard cantrips at 1st level. Pair that with a few levels in Fighter for Action Surge, and you'll be just fine. Or, if you want to skip arcane cantrips, pairing Cleric and Ranger (or the old version of the Blood Hunter that was based on Wisdom instead of Int) works well.

I could also see a Divine Soul Sorc/Fighter combo working fairly well for this.

.....That's quite interesting.

I'd actually never considered pairing DS and Fighter. I'd often considered Fighter and Cleric, but never Fighter and Sorc.

Here's my issue with the SCAG cantrips, though. And I fully realize this is a ME issue, its not something with the game:

I'd much rather have two swings of a weapon, each with a chance to do 10 damage, than one swing potentially doing 22 damage. Does that make sense? I hate the idea of waiting for my turn in combat and then just having one swing, all or nothing.... this is also why I'm not fond of playing Rogues.

[Unoriginal]

Can't rely on Eldritch Smite because its once per turn

I mean, how many times per turn does a Paladin Smite usually?

QUOTE=jaappleton;24693468]and falls behind AoE spells like Fireball. [/QUOTE]

Isn't that comparing apple to oranges? A single-target damage isn't going to the the same as an AoE, yeah, but that's because they're entirely different beasts.



Unfortunately I can't seem to find a way to stay competitive with other gish builds and NOT include Paladin.

Green Flame Blade + Radiant Soul packs a wallop, though. ESPECIALLY Green Flame Blade + Radiant Soul + Eldritch Smite.

With a Greatsword.

[Amnestic]

Arcana Clerics can actually do quite well at this, if they pick up Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade as one of their Wizard cantrips at 1st level. Pair that with a few levels in Fighter for Action Surge, and you'll be just fine. Or, if you want to skip arcane cantrips, pairing Cleric and Ranger (or the old version of the Blood Hunter that was based on Wisdom instead of Int) works well.

I could also see a Divine Soul Sorc/Fighter combo working fairly well for this.

Arcana Cleric+Magic Initiate: Druid or Nature Cleric and Magic Initiate: Wizard both make you pretty Wis-SAD gish as a first level vhuman.

Toss out a bless or a spirit guardians or whatever as your concentration spell and go to town.

[cutlery]

Dunno about that, I think most gish enthusiast just aren't into the whole healing and buffing thing. But now I kinda want to see if a Celestial Bladelock (maybe with some Divine Sorcerer) would work.

Paladin , celestiallock, divine soul sorcerer, in pretty much any combination you like.

But... that's a healer/buffer with smites. I don't think that's a gish, but opinions differ.



Can't rely on Eldritch Smite because its once per turn and falls behind AoE spells like Fireball. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a way to stay competitive with other gish builds and NOT include Paladin.

That's dm-dependent. If your adventuring day is so short you can smite once or twice every round of combat, then no - not much can keep up.

On the other hand if you have a very long adventuring day, a High Elf battlemaster with prestidigitation will outpace them for damage output, and do it with that mentos fresh feeling, too.

[Man_Over_Game]

Why don't I ever see gishes that increase healing and buffing? Where's the gish that can strike multiple enemies, for nice damage, and toss out the Mass Cure Wounds to keep everyone upright?

Is it stat synergy? Is it because offensive damage output is cooler to do? Because dead enemies can't cause damage? Because damage output outpaces healing?

Well, it's because of a lack of synergy.

Everyone needs healing, there's no need to have the melee person be in charge of it. In fact, you generally don't want them to focus on it, since melee freatures are more circumstantial, and thus are generally higher impact.

However, when it comes to buffs, the difference there comes from having a guaranteed use for the spell. You won't always have a need to cast Haste, unless you planned around that need. Same goes for Enlarge/Reduce on grapple specialists. And the easiest way to do that is to build around it yourself.

Plus, what you're describing does fit pretty easily in Paladins and Clerics. The things that someone would feel are lacking in what you're describing could probably be solved with a few levels (like Divine Soul for Paladin), or a few feats (Polearm Master + War Caster on Cleric).



The way you'd have to make a Melee Healer is either through something enforced, or something organic.

Enforced is a melee class that has powers strictly used for healing. We call this a Paladin. No matter what you'd naturally do, the Paladin is a plausible Melee Healer. Even a Cleric can plausibly avoid the front lines when a Paladin can't.
Organic is a mechanic that revolves around utilizing both Melee and Healer together. An example of this would be spending your large HP pool to heal an ally, compensated with some kind of regeneration feature.


What you're looking for is something Organic to make a build off of, but 5e doesn't really have that when it comes to healing. The best example I can think of is the Life Cleric's feature that helps them heal themselves when they heal allies. However, something like Warding Bond isn't quite the same, since a melee character generally has higher AC, mitigating more damage for each real HP he loses, and is thus a better target for Warding Bond than the caster of it.

[MrStabby]

I think the issue is that there isnt that much to talk about.

I mean a character that can be effective at melee and support spellcasting? Moon Druid? Clerics? There isnt so much to discuss - you are probably still taking the obvious spells, there are not that many unexpected interactions or novelties to talk about.

It isnt that people dont play these, it's just they dont talk about them so much.

You get an occasional thread about a valor bard that rolled well that takes aura of vitality and a level of life cleric to fill the role or a ranger (with a level of life cleric, naturally) or a celestial blade lock (again with a level of life cleric) but they dont have quite so many complex tradeoffs to talk about. Conversations happen where there is room for debate really.

[jaappleton]

I think what is my ideal subclass for this in my head is basically a Druid Bladesinger.

Take the Bladesinger, tack it on to a Druid, swap INT to WIS, use Wild Shape to activate Bladesong. They get all their subclass features at the exact same levels.

I'm actually quite curious as to why we've never gotten any sort of Druid with extra attack. And don't even say Moon because only some forms get Multiattack.

[Dork_Forge]

I think what is my ideal subclass for this in my head is basically a Druid Bladesinger.

Take the Bladesinger, tack it on to a Druid, swap INT to WIS, use Wild Shape to activate Bladesong. They get all their subclass features at the exact same levels.

I'm actually quite curious as to why we've never gotten any sort of Druid with extra attack. And don't even say Moon because only some forms get Multiattack.

I'd guess that the answer probably is moon though, it's a melee capable Druid with the option of Multiattack, otherwisea more martial Druid (imo) doesn't lend itself to Extra Attack, you're basically building a better Ranger if you tread in those waters (and things like Spore's poison is more thematic for the Circle).

[cutlery]

I think what is my ideal subclass for this in my head is basically a Druid Bladesinger.

Take the Bladesinger, tack it on to a Druid, swap INT to WIS, use Wild Shape to activate Bladesong. They get all their subclass features at the exact same levels.

I'm actually quite curious as to why we've never gotten any sort of Druid with extra attack. And don't even say Moon because only some forms get Multiattack.

Some forms do get extra attacks, and a pile of disposable hitpoints, too.

Wild shape fills the same space as bladesong; you can't cast while doing it, but that's okay.

I don't think every full caster needs access to extra attack (without multiclassing); the more of them that do, the more lame the ranger looks!

[Evaar]

I'm actually quite curious as to why we've never gotten any sort of Druid with extra attack. And don't even say Moon because only some forms get Multiattack.

I would hypothesize that we haven't because it would be hard to differentiate from a Ranger.

[king_steve]

I think what is my ideal subclass for this in my head is basically a Druid Bladesinger.

Take the Bladesinger, tack it on to a Druid, swap INT to WIS, use Wild Shape to activate Bladesong. They get all their subclass features at the exact same levels.

I'm actually quite curious as to why we've never gotten any sort of Druid with extra attack. And don't even say Moon because only some forms get Multiattack.

Circle of Spores kinda can do this, they don't have extra attack, but they get temp hp and a bonus to weapon attacks. You can still shillelagh and hit things with your casting stat. They don't get extra attack though, but you could pick up a cantrip like booming blade or GFB to help out.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm actually quite curious as to why we've never gotten any sort of Druid with extra attack. And don't even say Moon because only some forms get Multiattack.


I'd guess that the answer probably is moon though, it's a melee capable Druid with the option of Multiattack, otherwisea more martial Druid (imo) doesn't lend itself to Extra Attack, you're basically building a better Ranger if you tread in those waters (and things like Spore's poison is more thematic for the Circle).

Yeah, that's probably the better answer. There are a thousand ways to build a martial that attacks with a weapon while getting a big, generic combat boost at level 5 (because let's be real, that's what Extra Attack is).

I think the better way to grow would be to either add alternate ways of doing the same (such as through Wild Shape forms and Moon Druid), or finding ways that add synergy to the existing methods (which Spore Druid does through enhancing your melee attacks).

Otherwise, we're just doomed to keep running into the same problems by trying the same solutions. Like how Bard doesn't mix well with almost any kind of Martial, or how the Bladesinger handicaps himself by trying to use his melee attacks.

[Lord Raziere]

Dunno about that, I think most gish enthusiast just aren't into the whole healing and buffing thing. But now I kinda want to see if a Celestial Bladelock (maybe with some Divine Sorcerer) would work.

Yeah....

if I wanted that, I'd just be a Paladin or one of the more combat-focused Clerics. those archetypes are already made, established and codified.

when I think Gish, I want to work the arcane/black magic not the white. and honestly there is no non-homebrew class or archetype that just straight up delivers it the same way it does with those two classes. at least not in my opinion. thus everyone needs to talk about how to work around the system to make it possible

[cutlery]

when I think Gish, I want to work the arcane/black magic not the white. and honestly there is no non-homebrew class or archetype that just straight up delivers it the same way it does with those two classes. at least not in my opinion. thus everyone needs to talk about how to work around the system to make it possible

Which is weird - you'd think with all the interest in it since 5e's release, there would have been something in one of the books since.

And no, bladesinger isn't it, and neither is hexblade, really. They're cool, but they are still full casters.

In the case of Bladesingers in particular, they aren't a very good version of the 2e original, either. 5e can't really handle the original bladesinger, though.

[Lord Raziere]

Which is weird - you'd think with all the interest in it since 5e's release, there would have been something in one of the books since.

And no, bladesinger isn't it, and neither is hexblade, really. They're cool, but they are still full casters.

In the case of Bladesingers in particular, they aren't a very good version of the 2e original, either. 5e can't really handle the original bladesinger, though.

I just use Benjaman Huffman's Magus class myself, I don't have time to make my own fix or fiddle with imprecise roundabout optimization. but yeah, real weird how they haven't done that yet, EK is just bad on the other end of the spectrum y'know? doesn't hit that sweet spot.

[Christew]

I mean, there is arguably a much wider spectrum of single classes that can melee and heal than there are that can melee and blast/arcane/whatever you term a gish.

Melee/Heal: Swords Bard, Valor Bard, Cleric, Druid, Tranquility Monk, Ranger
Melee/Arcane: Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Blade Warlock

We don't tend to call healers gishes because the lineage of the term described a fighter/wizard mix. Hence why we have EK (fighter with some wiz) and BS (wizard with some fight). A true gish class would be a half caster combining the two more evenly a la fighter/cleric = paladin and fighter/druid = ranger. Granted by this formulation we should have a fighter 1/2 class of each full caster ....

[Protolisk]

. A true gish class would be a half caster combining the two more evenly a la fighter/cleric = paladin and fighter/druid = ranger. Granted by this formulation we should have a fighter 1/2 class of each full caster ....

So Artificer then. Why don't Battlesmiths at least count as melee/arcane?

Honestly, we don't need a half caster for all of them. Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock are all charisma casters, and Paladin is already our charisma half caster. Why it ended up charisma is up for debate. Additionally, since Sorcerer and Warlock already step on each other's toes, having a half caster step on their toes even more might leave little design space left.

[Christew]

So Artificer then. Why don't Battlesmiths at least count as melee/arcane?

Honestly, we don't need a half caster for all of them. Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock are all charisma casters, and Paladin is already our charisma half caster. Why it ended up charisma is up for debate. Additionally, since Sorcerer and Warlock already step on each other's toes, having a half caster step on their toes even more might leave little design space left.

Legitimately forgot about Artificer entirely. Good point.

[ZiddyT]

I think Cleric can make a fantastic gish, both offensive and supporty.

I don't think it's an uncommon build but I'm playing a Hunter Ranger/Arcana Cleric right now that does this. Using some UA, I took Druidic fighter for Shillelagh (Quarterstaff), GFB+BB and Hordebreaker, in addition to Polearm Master + War Caster. Basically all-in on cleave DPR, GFB + Potent Spellcasting (when I eventually get it) + Hordebreaker is very good at-will damage, plus you get Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians on top of all that - if something wants to get to me or my party they're going to be doing it slowly, and they're taking a Booming Blade (or rather, Boomstick) to the dome once they get into range for their troubles.

And of course, you have access to all the standard Cleric support. You can even make some use of the otherwise terrible Ranger CC like Ensnaring Strike since you maintain both a high attack bonus and save DC. I like it quite a lot.