magic item creation and reducing metamagic slot

[Raishoiken]

So in the magic item creation rules it says you can specifically put a spell into an item at a higher level using metamagic feats. From this i personally infer if you somehow reduce the slot of a spell below it's usual (forceful magic + metamagic school focus) for a scroll or wondrous item or something, should it not technically work the same (inverse) way?

what chall's thoughts?

[Darrin]

The guidelines for pricing magic items in the DMG are not ironclad rules. The DM and players should work together to create a magic item that works well within the campaign world, and is priced appropriately so that it represents a meaningful sacrifice of resources for the crafting character.

That being said, I would encourage a DM that allows a crafter to optimize a spell down to a lower level to reduce GP/XP costs to seriously reconsider what sort of door he/she is opening, and what sort of monsters might later wiggle through that gap.

If you're looking for a "Strict" RAW answer, then I'd say: the rules don't really allow a spell level to be lowered beyond what's printed in the books. Even if you allow Sanctum Spell to lower the effective spell level by 1, there's still an ongoing debate in the forum over what exactly happens when Sanctum Spell changes the "level" of a spell.

[Pinkie Pyro]

By RAW, metamagic *uses* a higher level spell slot, it doesn't actually increase the spell level, therefore a metamagic version of a spell uses it's default spell level, and theoretically caster level.

lowering the spell level of a spell does allow you to create items cheaper, this is why an optimized mind mage can make a *wonderous item* ring of continuous time stop for 4k gold.

Edit: I actually just realized writing this, you can actually cast a metamagic'd spell in a higher spell slot at the normal minimum caster level, although the only time that would be beneficial is magic item creation.

[Crake]

I would recommend not allowing metamagic reducers to apply, because, since the spell only needs to be expended once per day during crafting, you could simply get the sudden metamagic feats or monsters with SLAs and SLA metamagic feats, and get "free" metamagic to all your items.

As a personal guideline, two identical items made by two different people should for the most part cost the same, despite any build choices. The only exception to this, for me anyway, is crafters with feats that specifically reduce crafting costs, like extraordinary artisan etc.

[RSGA]

Admittedly, this is only the SRD that I checked, but it only allows for putting in spells at higher levels using metamagic in the Creating Magic Items section. So assuming that the actual text sections don't radically change that, a lowered metamagic enhanced spell is never going in at less than the spell level it comes out of unaltered for that class.

But it means that you could potentially make metamagic-ed wands of 4ths that don't involve +0 Metamagics.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Admittedly, this is only the SRD that I checked, but it only allows for putting in spells at higher levels using metamagic in the Creating Magic Items section. So assuming that the actual text sections don't radically change that, a lowered metamagic enhanced spell is never going in at less than the spell level it comes out of unaltered for that class.

But it means that you could potentially make metamagic-ed wands of 4ths that don't involve +0 Metamagics.

That line is really poorly written,

"Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

All that line actually says is you can increase the spell level, and the only metamagic that does that (in core, anyway) is heighten, and it never mentions anything about including metamagic effects for an increased cost.

another line: "With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell."

doesn't explain a damn thing, as it specifically calls out spell level, and in the same section:

"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description."

so the cost never actually increases, Heighten spell effects not withstanding.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Command Word (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) is spell level x caster level x 1800 gp.
Same table, charges per day divides the cost by (5/daily charges), so 1/day is 1/5 the price.

Circlet of Blasting, Minor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#circletofBlastingMinor) is Searing Light (3rd) at a caster level of 6th, x 1800 gp, divided by 5, is exactly the item's printed price.

Circlet of Blasting, Major is Maximized (+3) Searing Light (3rd), the minimum caster level of a 6th level spell is 11th, x 1800 gp, divided by 5, is again exactly that item's printed price.


So RAW, the metamagic adjustment to the level of the spell slot required to cast the spell the item contains is factored into the price of that item.

Sanctum Spell doesn't change the spell slot, so it doesn't change the price of the item.


For items that use metamagic-cost-reducing abilities such as Metamagic School Focus or Divine Metamagic or UM's Augmented Casting, I've always ruled that to activate such an item you need to have the same metamagic-reducing abilities as though you were casting the spell from the same level slot on which the item's price was based. If such abilities require resource expenditure or have a daily limit, you must expend those same resources to activate that item as you would need to spend to cast it normally from that same level spell slot. This limitation on the item's activation doesn't cause the item's base price to be any lower, as it's already been reduced by the spell level shenanigans.

[Darg]

"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description."

I don't know where this quote came from specifically, but it answers itself. It is apparently cast as a higher level spell that acts as a spell of it's original level. This solves the mystery of the metamagic item creation feats not making sense.

[Pinkie Pyro]

I don't know where this quote came from specifically, but it answers itself. It is apparently cast as a higher level spell that acts as a spell of it's original level. This solves the mystery of the metamagic item creation feats not making sense.

You read that backwards, the first part overwrites the second.


Circlet of Blasting, Major is Maximized (+3) Searing Light (3rd), the minimum caster level of a 6th level spell is 11th, x 1800 gp, divided by 5, is again exactly that item's printed price.

That's a good precedent for sure, but a lot of magic items don't quite adhere to the table anyway.

[Darg]

You read that backwards, the first part overwrites the second.

They aren't mutually exclusive. It can be read to mean that the spell is prepared as a higher level spell until it is cast. At which point it operates in all ways as a spell of the original level. Translated into higher concentration DCs, but the spell has lower save DCs and won't bypass higher spell level immunities.

[Pinkie Pyro]

They aren't mutually exclusive. It can be read to mean that the spell is prepared as a higher level spell until it is cast. At which point it operates in all ways as a spell of the original level. Translated into higher concentration DCs, but the spell has lower save DCs and won't bypass higher spell level immunities.

"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though..."

no, the first part overwrites the second part.