Help Progressing a 'Pact Archer'

[Edea]

I'm interested in playing a 'pact archer' of sorts (not necessarily the Arcane Archer Fighter subclass).

So far, I have a progression of Warlock(Hexblade, Pact of the Blade) 5 planned out, utilizing Improved Pact Weapon to allow the use of a longbow with Pact of the Blade/Hex Warrior. Thirsting Blade is unavailable until Warlock 5, so that much is pretty much set-in-stone. The Sharpshooter feat will be taken at 4th instead of an ASI. Besides Cha starting off at 16, stats are somewhat flexible for the purpose of multiclassing.

I'm mostly wondering where I should go from here, class-wise/race-wise/options-wise (multiclassing's allowed, here)? I'm aware that 'just use eldritch blast + agonizing blast' is more optimal, and in fact for 1st and 2nd level that's precisely what's happening, but from 3rd level onward I'd really like to stick to primarily using a bow in combat for flavor/roleplay reasons (so things will get re-trained out).

Should I just stick with Warlock? Should I look at Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/something else? Should I play a VHuman or not? Any particular cantrips/spells/invocations I should be looking at?

[Yakk]

Half elf, 17 cha to start, elven accuracy, then sharpshooter.

Sharpshooter without accuracy buffs is medocre. Elven accuracy gives +1 cha (18) and makes you gross when you have advantage (about as good as SS at that level).

18 AC foe, level 5. You have 16 cha(+3), SS, +3 prof, +1 pact weapon for +2 to hit. With advantage, you need a 16+, so 44% accuracy 10% crit.

(8 * .54 + 14 * .44)*2 is 21.0 DPR.

EA build. 18 cha (+4), +3 prof, +1 pact weapon for +8 to hit. 91% accuracy, 14% crits.

(8 * 1.05 + 5 * .91)*2 is 25.9 DPR

What more, if you hexblade curse, AE gets almost twice the benefit; both the crit range and the static damage magnify EA, while they work against SS. +7.5 DPR from Hexblade on EA, +4.1 on SS.

On top of that, without advantage, you have +1 to hit and damage over SS build; -5/+10 is very rarely useful at level 5 without advantage.

SS only wins with cover, against quite low-AC foes, and at extreme range.

---

Now, once you have EA, SS+Advantage becomes quite good. Your accuracy loss from -5 to hit is smaller both because your Proficiency is higher, and because of EA gives you 3 chances to hit.

At level 8, against 18 AC, you have 73% accuracy and 14% crit chance with EA + SS -5/+10. Much better than 44% accuracy and 10% crit rate.

(8 * 0.87 + 15 * .73) * 2 is 35.8 DPR.

And +7.9 DPR from Hexblade's curse if you can stack it.

---

A fighter dip for archery style is solid. Fighter 2 gives you action surge, which might be worth the price. Then fighter 3 gives you battlemaster dice or samurai auto-advantage (which is good with elven accuracy).

A feat, on the other hand, is also nice.

[Talionis]

Lifedrinker is Warlock 12. After that you get little from Warlock.

Interestingly you can switch out Thirsting Blade for another invocation if you ever get Extra Attack.

An outside the box option is Paladin levels of Devotion or Vengence. Both of their Channel Divinity abilities add accuracy. Which pair with Sharpshooter Feat. The spell lists are good with many spells that can be upcast with your Warlock slots. Branding Smite works with ranged attacks. And Paladin 6 offers Charisma to all Saves.

[Edea]

Ahh, I didn't know about being able to just swap out Thirsting Blade once Extra Attack is obtained; will keep that in mind.

Probably won't stick to Warlock all the way, then. I find myself slightly gravitating towards Fighter over Paladin, at the moment; sort-of wish there was a way to get the archer-specific Ranger spells without actually dipping Ranger, heh.

[LudicSavant]

You may be interested in this thread, in which I do some analysis on Warlock archery.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591790-The-Hexbow-Building-a-Warlock-for-Archery

Incidentally, I happen to know that the character Aureus made with this advice has now been played from level 3 to level 16, and is still going strong. :smallsmile:

[Edea]

Ooh, thanks, will read through!

EDIT: I did have one big other question, though; I'm quite certain my DM'll ignore this even if it's technically correct, but when using a longbow as a spellcasting focus like that, is it still possible to cast S-component spells, since it's technically considered a two-handed weapon?

Flavor-wise, it seems pretty obvious; you hold the bow itself in one hand (maybe twirling it around/flourishing it), and the other hand (which is NOT currently holding an arrow or anything else) performs the appropriate gestures. However, RAW it seems like the property itself is enough to make this an issue; I'm half-wondering if the reason Arcane Archer ended up not getting any actual Spellcasting was because of this possible 'snag' in the rules.

I mean I guess I could multi Sorcerer for Subtle Spell if I was really desperate?

[LudicSavant]

Ooh, thanks, will read through!

EDIT: I did have one big other question, though; I'm quite certain my DM'll ignore this even if it's technically correct, but when using a longbow as a spellcasting focus like that, is it still possible to cast S-component spells, since it's technically considered a two-handed weapon?

Flavor-wise, it seems pretty obvious; you hold the bow itself in one hand (maybe twirling it around/flourishing it), and the other hand (which is NOT currently holding an arrow or anything else) performs the appropriate gestures. However, RAW it seems like the property itself is enough to make this an issue; I'm half-wondering if the reason Arcane Archer ended up not getting any actual Spellcasting was because of this possible 'snag' in the rules.

I mean I guess I could multi Sorcerer for Subtle Spell if I was really desperate?

You can take your hand off and on a two-handed weapon as a non-action. There's a Sage Advice about it somewhere, if that matters.

Also, Improved Pact Weapon will let you use your pact weapon as a spellcasting focus, and give you a permanent Magic Weapon buff if you're not already using a magic weapon.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I played a similar build because I wanted to fool around with Devils Sight/Darkenss combo and didnt want to massively hamper my team of front line fighters by being in the front line.

Halfelf - 17 Cha start
Elven accuracy at 4 + 1 Cha
SS at 8
20 Cha at 12 + Lifedrinker
Multiclass Fighter at 13
Battlemaster at 15

I know some people multiclass earlier, I was just not that interested or worried about it. Was a suprise to make it past 12 at all.

It's fun, it's less optimized then Spamming EB but still fun.

[Corran]

Should I just stick with Warlock? Should I look at Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/something else? Should I play a VHuman or not? Any particular cantrips/spells/invocations I should be looking at?
The big draw of a hexblade archer is that, opposed to most other archer builds, you are a fullcaster at the same time. Pew pew aside, you'll get access to good spells, so take that into account when you're considering multiclassing. For example, it might look tempting to pick one fighter level for archery after warlock 12, but is that a good choice when I'd warlock 13 you could choose among the likes of forcecage? Probably not. That said, if you are looking to multiclass, look mostly at two things. The archery fighting style (cause it's hard to keep your damage competitive to EB spamming, so every little thing helps, especially when that little something has synergy with sharpshooter), and the ability to get out of melee without blowing 5th level slots on misty step (eg three levels on some other arcane caster for 2nd level slots; or goblin/eldarin/etc; or two levels of rogue). The last one depending on if your DM puts enough pressure on the squishy ''back line''.

One benefit a hexbow has over an EB spammer, is that you have better ranged nova. So I'd build a little around that. At minimum I'd want both banishing smite and eldritch smite, but I would also look at squeezing lucky into my feat selection too (ready an action and coordinate with an ally to immediately take someone out of the fight more easily). Obviously you need spell slots to count on this (another reason why not counting on pact slots for mobility is not a good idea, as by that point you have most ways to spend your slots than those that an EB warlock has), so taking my warlock all the way up to level 11 would be the minimum I'd want out of my warlock progression (and with forcecage only two levels away, I think I'd think of warlock 13 as my actual minimum warlock level; then it's just a question of how badly you want to go up to level 9 spells, cause everything in between is nice but not great; I am mostly tempted by the inocation at 15, but by not much else). Also, crit fishing (and you can do some of that), becomes more viable the more warlock levels you have from tier 3 onwards. Thats because of getting more slots (at 11 and 17), but also because your arcana (11, 13, 15, 17) will take some pressure off your pact slots when it comes to doing castery things. That might leave some slots available to use with ES when you happen to roll a crit during an opportune moment.

Other than that, try to make good use of devil's sight for easy access to advantage whenever possible (mobility will help you here), and maybe try to squeeze in crossbow expert some time before you get a 4th beam (though to be honest, cantrips scale so well that it's just better to use one cantrip -EB- and one invocation -AB- slot instead of going ham on how to make the bow viable; I'd still keep the bow around for nova though).

[Frogreaver]

I'm interested in playing a 'pact archer' of sorts (not necessarily the Arcane Archer Fighter subclass).

So far, I have a progression of Warlock(Hexblade, Pact of the Blade) 5 planned out, utilizing Improved Pact Weapon to allow the use of a longbow with Pact of the Blade/Hex Warrior. Thirsting Blade is unavailable until Warlock 5, so that much is pretty much set-in-stone. The Sharpshooter feat will be taken at 4th instead of an ASI. Besides Cha starting off at 16, stats are somewhat flexible for the purpose of multiclassing.

I'm mostly wondering where I should go from here, class-wise/race-wise/options-wise (multiclassing's allowed, here)? I'm aware that 'just use eldritch blast + agonizing blast' is more optimal, and in fact for 1st and 2nd level that's precisely what's happening, but from 3rd level onward I'd really like to stick to primarily using a bow in combat for flavor/roleplay reasons (so things will get re-trained out).

Should I just stick with Warlock? Should I look at Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/something else? Should I play a VHuman or not? Any particular cantrips/spells/invocations I should be looking at?

My recommendations:
1. Ignore SS (hex has a minimum range) - maybe take it as a variant human or when you've maxed charisma.
2. Increase Cha
3. At level 5-8 hex lasts most adventuring days. At level 9+ hex lasts them all
4. Make sure you take the invocation that lets you essentially divine smite as it will give you a ton of extra damage and will make your playstyle feel different than eldritch blast
5. Make sure you learn misty step
6. Multiclass fighter when you want - i'd recommend level 13+. Archery style, Action Surge and precision attack will be huge for this character after the high base damage is established.

I just want to point out that by level 12 staying a pure warlock you will be doing around 23.4 DPR vs 25.2 (EB + Hex). However, you can also Smite for a little over 200 damage per day (assuming 2 short rests). That's like a +10 DPR increase in a 20 round adventure day. So it's closer to 33.4 vs 25.2.

***Chance to hit assumed base 60% (crits weren't included but will have minimal impact)

[Chaos Theory]

Half-Elf Blade Pact Hexblade is built for crit fishing: triple advantage, double crit range, a smite attack, and several ways to generate advantage. This is one of the top burst damage builds in t3 and t4 since it can crit smite all day as long as you get enough short rests. You can generate advantage with Darkness / Devil Sight as early as level 3 but it will cost you a pact magic slot leaving you with only a single smite per short rest unless you're grouping with another Darkness caster (e.g. a Shadow Sorcerer). Here is the advice I'd like to give:

1) Skip Agonizing Blast. Blade Pact is invocation intensive so prioritize the likes of Devil Sight, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite, and Lifedrinker. If you still feel like taking Agonizing Blast after all that, feel free to do so, but by then, I suspect you won't find much of an improvement over your normal ranged damage.

2) Use concentration on Darkness instead of Hex. Since you don't have War Caster or proficiency in Con saves, you are likely to lose your long-duration Hex to random damage. Instead, Darkness reduces the ability of enemies to target you and combines well with Elven Accuracy for reliable triple advantage to hit with Sharpshooter.

3) Use Hexblade's Curse together with Darkness, Devil Sight, and Elven Accuracy to fish for crits. When you eventually get a crit (about 1 in 4 attacks), smite it.

4) Consider Crossbow Expert at level 12. This synergizes well with the damage bonus from Lifedrinker and gives you more chances to land that crit smite.

5) Stay Warlock until at least level 17. This gives you Premonition and a 4th pact magic slot. Premonition gives you always-on advantage without having to spend concentration or a pact magic slot on Darkness. This doubles the number of smites available to you which translates to a big increase in damage output.

6) 20 Warlock is not bad but if you really want to push the limits of damage output, take the last 3 levels in Fighter. Archery Style, Action Surge, and Battle Master maneuvers all add significantly to your nova damage.

[Frogreaver]

2) Use concentration on Darkness instead of Hex. Since you don't have War Caster or proficiency in Con saves, you are likely to lose your long-duration Hex to random damage. Instead, Darkness reduces the ability of enemies to target you and combines well with Elven Accuracy for reliable triple advantage to hit with Sharpshooter.


Darkness Combo looks good in whiteroom but there are a number of drawbacks to it compared to hex.

1. It takes an action to cast darkness (sometimes you can prebuff it but it's not reliable).
2. It can become detrimental to your other party members.
3. It takes alot more spell slots to keep that combo going most of the day, eliminating your ability to use many eldritch smites.

In fact, it's going to be worth looking at whether the darkness combo even keeps up in the day - even with SS and elven accuracy.

I just crunched some numbers and I'm finding that the Hex non SS version actually is better in tier 2. Tier 3 brings them nearly into complete alignment.

[Chaos Theory]

Darkness Combo looks good in whiteroom but there are a number of drawbacks to it compared to hex.

1. It takes an action to cast darkness (sometimes you can prebuff it but it's not reliable).
2. It can become detrimental to your other party members.
3. It takes alot more spell slots to keep that combo going most of the day, eliminating your ability to use many eldritch smites.

In fact, it's going to be worth looking at whether the darkness combo even keeps up in the day - even with SS and elven accuracy.

I just crunched some numbers and I'm finding that the Hex non SS version actually is better in tier 2. Tier 3 brings them nearly into complete alignment.

Darkness combo isn't just a white room scenario. There are several reasons why the usual problems with Darkness don't apply to a hexbow compared to other warlocks.

1. It takes an action to cast darkness (sometimes you can prebuff it but it's not reliable).

Yes, it does require some advance warning to prebuff but Darkness has a 10-minute duration and can be cast on an object to be activated as part of movement so it's not that unreliable as a pre-buff. In any case, you're not trying to cast Darkness in every fight, only the ones where you want to nova (see #3).

2. It can become detrimental to your other party members.

I can see this being a problem for a melee bladelock but for a ranged hexbow, you can just stand 20' back. That being said, if you're really worried about interfering with party members, there's always Shadow of Moil.

3. It takes alot more spell slots to keep that combo going most of the day, eliminating your ability to use many eldritch smites.

Darkness is not something to be used in more than one encounter per short rest. If you are using Darkness, you're seeking to dump all of your spell slots on crit smites in that encounter and then short rest afterwards. If you have spell slots left after a Darkness combo, you probably didn't need to use it.

You don't have to use Darkness or Hex for every single encounter. Most encounters are decided by control, not by a few extra DPR. As a full caster, a Hexbow can contribute concentration spells like Suggestion, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Hunger of Hadar, or Sickening Radiance. If you use any of those spells, you'll lose Hex and have to recast it afterwards. Feel free to cast your morning Hex for some relaxed monster bashing, just don't feel like you have to camp Hex because there are a lot of good spells that are likely to be worth more than 1d6 damage per attack.

You make a good case in that Hex is better through most of Tier 2, one worth testing out. So I gamed out the scenario with 10000 runs at each level using Darkness and Hex strategies against an equal CR enemy:

At level 5, they both took on average 3 rounds to kill the enemy. At level 8, the Hex build took 4 rounds while Darkness took 3. At level 8, the Hex build still took 4 rounds while the Darkness build was able to kill the 173hp enemy in 2 rounds 50% of the time. DPR doesn't tell the whole story. As I said, small increases in DPR don't count for much. Crit-fishing, however, results in huge damage spikes and has the ability to decide encounters.

[Frogreaver]

Darkness combo isn't just a white room scenario. There are several reasons why the usual problems with Darkness don't apply to a hexbow compared to other warlocks.

1. It takes an action to cast darkness (sometimes you can prebuff it but it's not reliable).

Yes, it does require some advance warning to prebuff but Darkness has a 10-minute duration and can be cast on an object to be activated as part of movement so it's not that unreliable as a pre-buff. In any case, you're not trying to cast Darkness in every fight, only the ones where you want to nova (see #3).

It's still something that will quite often impact your action economy. There will be plenty of fights you want to nova that you didn't get it prebuffed.


2. It can become detrimental to your other party members.

I can see this being a problem for a melee bladelock but for a ranged hexbow, you can just stand 20' back. That being said, if you're really worried about interfering with party members, there's always Shadow of Moil.

I guess technically you will have both. Darkness and Shadow of Moil and can tailor which one you use to the situation. I think that's a fair counterpoint.


3. It takes alot more spell slots to keep that combo going most of the day, eliminating your ability to use many eldritch smites.

Darkness is not something to be used in more than one encounter per short rest. If you are using Darkness, you're seeking to dump all of your spell slots on crit smites in that encounter and then short rest afterwards. If you have spell slots left after a Darkness combo, you probably didn't need to use it.

In tier 2 that means you'll be using darkness and dumping 1 spell slot into crit smites. You can do that combo once per short rest and you are totally out of steam.


You don't have to use Darkness or Hex for every single encounter. Most encounters are decided by control, not by a few extra DPR. As a full caster, a Hexbow can contribute concentration spells like Suggestion, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Hunger of Hadar, or Sickening Radiance. If you use any of those spells, you'll lose Hex and have to recast it afterwards. Feel free to cast your morning Hex for some relaxed monster bashing, just don't feel like you have to camp Hex because there are a lot of good spells that are likely to be worth more than 1d6 damage per attack.

So let's talk tier 2 first. You have 2 slots. Using one on those spells means you don't have the 2 slots your combo requires. I'm not saying they aren't great spells, but using them hurts your combo just as much as they do overriding hex by using them.


You make a good case in that Hex is better through most of Tier 2, one worth testing out. So I gamed out the scenario with 10000 runs at each level using Darkness and Hex strategies against an equal CR enemy:

At level 5, they both took on average 3 rounds to kill the enemy. At level 8, the Hex build took 4 rounds while Darkness took 3. At level 8, the Hex build still took 4 rounds while the Darkness build was able to kill the 173hp enemy in 2 rounds 50% of the time. DPR doesn't tell the whole story. As I said, small increases in DPR don't count for much. Crit-fishing, however, results in huge damage spikes and has the ability to decide encounters.

Without noting your assumptions and why you chose some I'm not sure this really means anything.

For example, why 173 hp? What AC? Did you consider darkness to be prebuffed? Did you assume hex was carried over through the short rest effectively giving you 1 extra spell slot than doing it the other way? What feat did you assume was obtained at level 4 for each character? What feat / ASI did you assume was obtained at level 8 for each character?

[LudicSavant]

I just crunched some numbers and I'm finding that the Hex non SS version actually is better in tier 2. Tier 3 brings them nearly into complete alignment.

Care to share the numbers? I like math. :smallsmile:

[Frogreaver]

Care to share the numbers? I like math. :smallsmile:

Let's start with assumptions:
1. 2 short rests and 20 rounds in the adventuring day with 6 encounters
2. Concentration is never broken
3. I look at ACs from 11-20
4. Eldritch Smite is used at first opportunity
5. Crits were factored in for everything but Eldritch Smite

Character 1
Level 8 Warlock
20 Cha (+2 Cha, +2 Cha with ASI's)
1 Spell slot used for hex, the others for Eldritch Smite
Notable Invocations: Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact Weapon, Extra Attack

Character 2
Warlock 8 Warlock
18 Cha (Eleven Accuracy, SS with ASI's)
Darkness used once in every encounter and is prebuffed in all but 2 of them
Notable Invocations: Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact Weapon, Extra Attack, Darkvision

I normally would attach a screenshot of my spreadsheet but that doesn't seem doable on this site.

So I will pick a couple of values - AC = 17.
Character 1 Effective DPR = 25.75
Character 2 Effective DPR = 23.66

[LudicSavant]

I normally would attach a screenshot of my spreadsheet but that doesn't seem doable on this site.

Just upload it to an image host and then link it.

[Frogreaver]

Just upload it to an image host and then link it.

Never used one. Suggestions?

[LudicSavant]

Never used one. Suggestions?

https://postimages.org/

[Evaar]

I’ve been playing a Hexblade archer with Sharpshooter and am up to level 12 without multiclassing yet. Here are some thoughts:

1) Damage is very solid against single targets, but can feel slow against a crowd. We’re playing Dungeon of the Mad Mage and have run up against some huge (in terms of participants) fights, in those scenarios I feel like I’m whittling away at a sequoia compared to just casting AOE.

2) Obviously you can take AOE spells, but even now spell slots are very limited. Because the build is typically so reliant on having advantage with Elven Accuracy, you usually want one spell per encounter to guarantee that. Until 12, that’s a short rest every 2 encounters if you use your spells for nothing else. Still may be worth it though because...

3) At 12 your base damage bonuses are so huge that Sharpshooter often isn’t necessary. Obviously more damage is always better, but when you can’t get advantage and can’t risk SS you can still put up solid numbers. Keep that in mind when firing at something that seems to be on its last legs.

4) Mobility has been a problem but might be specific to the campaign I’m in. I can’t afford to use Misty Step except in emergencies, so I’m often struggling to get into a good position to fire at the most valuable target.

5) Hexblade’s Curse has a very short range, which is exacerbated by the mobility issue above. I often forget to use it entirely.

6) Don’t forget to summon your specter as soon as you can. It lasts all day and has lots of uses, including taking the Help action.

7) I strongly recommend Soul Cage for your level 6 Arcanum. You only get to use it once per day, so it’s very good to have a suite of benefits that you can choose from all day. YMMV based on campaign if humanoid enemies are rare.

8) This goes for all warlocks but the invocation allowing you to Speak With Dead at will has been super valuable. I have the Charisma to pull off deceptions and get the spirit to reveal stuff it may not have otherwise, and it’s very thematic given all the other ghosty stuff I do. Even in DOTMM, where I wouldn’t have thought to do much info gathering, turns out there are skulls and bodies everywhere just waiting for a chance to give us the secret password to whatever.

9) But back to the main purpose of the build: if you can get into position to fire on a priority target and you have your Shadow of Moil or whatever running and you have a spellslot to spare on smite, you can absolutely take that target out. It just requires a bit more setup and strategy than you might have otherwise expected. Use your resources wisely.

[Edea]

I’ve been playing a Hexblade archer with Sharpshooter and am up to level 12 without multiclassing yet. Here are some thoughts:

1) Damage is very solid against single targets, but can feel slow against a crowd. We’re playing Dungeon of the Mad Mage and have run up against some huge (in terms of participants) fights, in those scenarios I feel like I’m whittling away at a sequoia compared to just casting AOE.

2) Obviously you can take AOE spells, but even now spell slots are very limited. Because the build is typically so reliant on having advantage with Elven Accuracy, you usually want one spell per encounter to guarantee that. Until 12, that’s a short rest every 2 encounters if you use your spells for nothing else. Still may be worth it though because...

3) At 12 your base damage bonuses are so huge that Sharpshooter often isn’t necessary. Obviously more damage is always better, but when you can’t get advantage and can’t risk SS you can still put up solid numbers. Keep that in mind when firing at something that seems to be on its last legs.

4) Mobility has been a problem but might be specific to the campaign I’m in. I can’t afford to use Misty Step except in emergencies, so I’m often struggling to get into a good position to fire at the most valuable target.

5) Hexblade’s Curse has a very short range, which is exacerbated by the mobility issue above. I often forget to use it entirely.

6) Don’t forget to summon your specter as soon as you can. It lasts all day and has lots of uses, including taking the Help action.

7) I strongly recommend Soul Cage for your level 6 Arcanum. You only get to use it once per day, so it’s very good to have a suite of benefits that you can choose from all day. YMMV based on campaign if humanoid enemies are rare.

8) This goes for all warlocks but the invocation allowing you to Speak With Dead at will has been super valuable. I have the Charisma to pull off deceptions and get the spirit to reveal stuff it may not have otherwise, and it’s very thematic given all the other ghosty stuff I do. Even in DOTMM, where I wouldn’t have thought to do much info gathering, turns out there are skulls and bodies everywhere just waiting for a chance to give us the secret password to whatever.

9) But back to the main purpose of the build: if you can get into position to fire on a priority target and you have your Shadow of Moil or whatever running and you have a spellslot to spare on smite, you can absolutely take that target out. It just requires a bit more setup and strategy than you might have otherwise expected. Use your resources wisely.

Thanks for posting your experiences up here, this helps a lot :smile:

[Chaos Theory]

In tier 2 that means you'll be using darkness and dumping 1 spell slot into crit smites. You can do that combo once per short rest and you are totally out of steam.

So let's talk tier 2 first. You have 2 slots. Using one on those spells means you don't have the 2 slots your combo requires. I'm not saying they aren't great spells, but using them hurts your combo just as much as they do overriding hex by using them.


I think we're in agreement that Darkness isn't useful before level 8. The reason it works from levels 8-11 is because of Elven Accuracy combined with Sharpshooter. Smites (2 for Hex and 1 for Darkness) have been factored into both of the below stats:

At level 7:
Hex has a 60% chance to hit with an average damage of 26
Darkness has a 94% chance to hit with an average damage of 16

At level 8:
Hex has a 65% chance to hit with an average damage of 27
Darkness has a 73% chance to hit with an average damage of 29




Without noting your assumptions and why you chose some I'm not sure this really means anything.

For example, why 173 hp? What AC? Did you consider darkness to be prebuffed? Did you assume hex was carried over through the short rest effectively giving you 1 extra spell slot than doing it the other way? What feat did you assume was obtained at level 4 for each character? What feat / ASI did you assume was obtained at level 8 for each character?

The generic CR 12 monster template I use has AC 17 and 173 HP. It was created from a compilation of stats from the Monster Manual. CR 12 doesn't have many examples of good monsters worth smiting. The closest is probably Erinyes. That brings the Hex build down to 3 rounds time to kill. If I use the CR 13 Storm Giant which has a large HP pool, then it becomes 4 rounds for Hex and 3 rounds for Darkness.

Yes, I considered Darkness to be pre-buffed. The general rule I use is that 1-minute buffs need to be cast on round 1, 10-minute buffs can be cast before the start of an encounter, and 1-hour buffs last until the next short rest. It's not entirely accurate but I believe it is a fair abstraction of the design intent behind different spell durations.

Yes, I assumed Hex was carried through short rests. However, it is not applied until round 2 since you spend your round 1 bonus action applying Hexblade's Curse.

As far as feats go:


4. Elven Accuracy
8. Sharpshooter
12. Crossbow Expert
16. Cha +2



4. Elven Accuracy
8. Cha +2
12. Crossbow Expert
16. Sharpshooter


Also, is it just me or is the power of full (or nearly full) warlock progression terribly underestimated? I've run many other builds through my simulator but this has one of the most powerful single-target bursts in t3 and t4. In addition, the burst is ranged and can be recovered after a short rest. Finally, it's also a decent spellcaster to cover scenarios where nova is not the answer.

[Edea]

It's sounding like regardless of whether I decide to go with a Hex-type or Darkness-type build, I should just go ahead and stick with straight warlock until I've at least gotten the 9th level Arcanum, then tack on the three Fighter levels.

I wish Arcane Archer had been more viable, but it didn't look like it synergized at all.

[Frogreaver]

I think we're in agreement that Darkness isn't useful before level 8. The reason it works from levels 8-11 is because of Elven Accuracy combined with Sharpshooter. Smites (2 for Hex and 1 for Darkness) have been factored into both of the below stats:

At level 7:
Hex has a 60% chance to hit with an average damage of 26
Darkness has a 94% chance to hit with an average damage of 16

At level 8:
Hex has a 65% chance to hit with an average damage of 27
Darkness has a 73% chance to hit with an average damage of 29



You've really got to do a better job spelling out your assumptions. I've spent the last 10 mins trying to replicate the damage numbers listed above under various assumptions and gotten no where. I think they are wrong, especially if you are factoring in smites as you claimed.


The generic CR 12 monster template I use has AC 17 and 173 HP. It was created from a compilation of stats from the Monster Manual. CR 12 doesn't have many examples of good monsters worth smiting. The closest is probably Erinyes. That brings the Hex build down to 3 rounds time to kill. If I use the CR 13 Storm Giant which has a large HP pool, then it becomes 4 rounds for Hex and 3 rounds for Darkness.

Yes, I considered Darkness to be pre-buffed. The general rule I use is that 1-minute buffs need to be cast on round 1, 10-minute buffs can be cast before the start of an encounter, and 1-hour buffs last until the next short rest. It's not entirely accurate but I believe it is a fair abstraction of the design intent behind different spell durations.

Yes, I assumed Hex was carried through short rests. However, it is not applied until round 2 since you spend your round 1 bonus action applying Hexblade's Curse.

As far as feats go:


4. Elven Accuracy
8. Sharpshooter
12. Crossbow Expert
16. Cha +2



4. Elven Accuracy
8. Cha +2
12. Crossbow Expert
16. Sharpshooter


Also, is it just me or is the power of full (or nearly full) warlock progression terribly underestimated? I've run many other builds through my simulator but this has one of the most powerful single-target bursts in t3 and t4. In addition, the burst is ranged and can be recovered after a short rest. Finally, it's also a decent spellcaster to cover scenarios where nova is not the answer.

A few thoughts:
1. There will be many times when darkness isn't prebuffed. I'd say a fair estimate would be 50% of the time. That makes a huge difference.
2. If you are smiting any at all then you are likely not using darkness every encounter -> and any encounter you don't use darkness in hex ends up being better. (assumption is that there are enough encounters in the day for that to occur).
3. Your assumption that you will have hexblades curse on every enemy in every encounter throughout the day is astonishing...

I agree that in terms of ranged damage dealing the hexblade is seriously underrated by most. A well built one is better at damage than an EB warlock.

[Chaos Theory]

It's sounding like regardless of whether I decide to go with a Hex-type or Darkness-type build, I should just go ahead and stick with straight warlock until I've at least gotten the 9th level Arcanum, then tack on the three Fighter levels.

I wish Arcane Archer had been more viable, but it didn't look like it synergized at all.

I know... I really wanted Arcane Archer to work but unfortunately, I haven't been able to make a case for it yet. I suppose you can make it work if you stick to Longbow and focus entirely on first round damage. This way, you can throw in an Arcane Shot and Banishing Smite for a big long-range attack that doesn't require you to be within 30' to use Hexblade Curse.

Hm... that sounds like it might work... going to try it out sometime.

I'd also say that that despite all the numbers I've thrown out, you should feel free to use Hex, Darkness, or Shadow of Moil depending on the situation. They're different tools and you can use any of them with the same build.

[Frogreaver]

https://postimages.org/

Thanks, here are the damage numbers I had for the scenario I posted earlier.

https://i.postimg.cc/8cL4j32d/Damage-comparison.png

[LudicSavant]

I think we're in agreement that Darkness isn't useful before level 8. The reason it works from levels 8-11 is because of Elven Accuracy combined with Sharpshooter. Smites (2 for Hex and 1 for Darkness) have been factored into both of the below stats:

At level 7:
Hex has a 60% chance to hit with an average damage of 26
Darkness has a 94% chance to hit with an average damage of 16

At level 8:
Hex has a 65% chance to hit with an average damage of 27
Darkness has a 73% chance to hit with an average damage of 29




The generic CR 12 monster template I use has AC 17 and 173 HP. It was created from a compilation of stats from the Monster Manual. CR 12 doesn't have many examples of good monsters worth smiting. The closest is probably Erinyes. That brings the Hex build down to 3 rounds time to kill. If I use the CR 13 Storm Giant which has a large HP pool, then it becomes 4 rounds for Hex and 3 rounds for Darkness.

Yes, I considered Darkness to be pre-buffed. The general rule I use is that 1-minute buffs need to be cast on round 1, 10-minute buffs can be cast before the start of an encounter, and 1-hour buffs last until the next short rest. It's not entirely accurate but I believe it is a fair abstraction of the design intent behind different spell durations.

Yes, I assumed Hex was carried through short rests. However, it is not applied until round 2 since you spend your round 1 bonus action applying Hexblade's Curse.

As far as feats go:


4. Elven Accuracy
8. Sharpshooter
12. Crossbow Expert
16. Cha +2



4. Elven Accuracy
8. Cha +2
12. Crossbow Expert
16. Sharpshooter


Also, is it just me or is the power of full (or nearly full) warlock progression terribly underestimated? I've run many other builds through my simulator but this has one of the most powerful single-target bursts in t3 and t4. In addition, the burst is ranged and can be recovered after a short rest. Finally, it's also a decent spellcaster to cover scenarios where nova is not the answer.

What are you using for your simulations?

[Chaos Theory]

What are you using for your simulations?

I am using a script that I wrote myself a long time ago and occasionally hack when I find an interesting build or strategy I want to try out. It's pretty sloppy and will probably make your eyes bleed but if you are inclined, have a GitHub account, and are willing to hack some node.js, it would be nice to have someone check my work or build something more robust.

[Evaar]

I wish Arcane Archer had been more viable, but it didn't look like it synergized at all.

I don’t know, I think it has potential. Most of the shots are bad because they offer saves against Intelligence, but that also applies to a lesser extent to Battlemaster with Dexterity.

Grasping Shot just works, though. They don’t get to save, they have to spend an action to make a check. It’ll be an easy check, but you made them spend that action to do it. Until they do that, it’s reduced speed and damage every time they move. The initial damage is poison, which is a minor drawback, but the later damage is slashing.

[Vogie]

Going into fighter for Arcane Archer is actually better than it looks.
Not only does it allow you to Nova by chaining things together, you can use the effects as ways to mimic others, as substitute spell slots. Shadow Arrow, for example, gives you the benefit of a Single-target, single round Darkness/Sight Combo. A fighter has access to banishing shot WAY sooner than a caster has access to banish. Add to that the action surge, a minor heal, and the archery fighting style, you've got a nice package. A couple levels later, you can switch out Thirsting Blade for Extra attack, allowing you to pick up something else an archery-lock usually has to skip. Specifically, if you're picking it up later in the game, grabbing a headband of intellect will allow you to avoid being MAD.

Also, don't forget the power of grabbing an additional ASI (fighters get another at 6) and, unless your campaign is based on Shadow of the Colossus, Curving Shot is incredibly powerful. It's something you can do every single turn, essentially turning a miss into a bonus action ranged attack.

Remember that Branding Smite and Banishing Smite, from the warlock expanded spell list, and invocation Eldritch Smite work on all weapon attacks, not just melee weapon attacks. "Why don't you just EB?" Shoots dragon from the sky with no save "Oh, right".