[3.5] Making Monsters Less Challenging

[Thurbane]

Just wondering about some ways that exist in the books, or that people have implemented, to make monsters less challenging as encounters and/or lower their CR.

I know there is a published adventure that has a blind mountain troll, and it's CR is lowered due to it's lack of sight.

Some templates also lower CR (Incarnate Construct, Ice Beast, Incorporeal Sentinel, Shadow Simulacrum etc.).

What about if you applied flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to monsters, without giving them bonus feats for them?

Or have them be under the effects of debilitative spells, like Bestow Curse (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm).

You can also gimp monsters compared to their CR by adding class levels that don't really benefit them, or PrCs like Survivor.

Just a general enquiry, not looking at any one monster in particular. Sometimes there is a specific monster type I may want to throw in an adventure, but it's a little too much for the party's level.

Cheers - T

[Particle_Man]

A minor one I use to save time: Make every feat the monster takes Toughness.

There is also of course the classic: Play stupid, including letting the PCs "clever plans" work on the monsters.

[gogogome]

Do exactly as the book directs you to.

Age of Worms for example, the final encounter in the first module are two elementals that have perfect flying with an at-will 2d6 sonic attack with reflex for half at range.
The book tells you to open with the ranged sonic attack and then melee the PCs until they die. Whole party took em out relatively easily.
What I did was have them hover over the PCs and focus fire the wizard in the first round and then anyone with ranged capabilities. And then just kite the melee types until they die. It was a TPK and my entire party called BS on me.

Likewise if you read the strategy sections of the monster entries, they direct you to play them subpar. Just follow the directions instead of using your brain.

[Saintheart]

Drop their AC, drop their saving throws by 4, remove DR, drop the DC of their spells or spell like abilities, and cut their BAB by 5. It isn't hard. CR is a nearly useless metric, don't use it except to calculate XP and otherwise use the creature's actual maths to make it easier to kill.

[ShurikVch]

The "Salvage Operation" adventure in Dungeon #90 have Sick Old Giant Squid with CR 4 - it have just 30 hp, reduced natural AC, and ability scores 10/8/6/1/12/2

Also:

Orcs with crossbows, behind cover, firing down at the PCs while the characters cross a narrow ledge over a pit full of spikes are much more dangerous than the same orcs being engaged in hand-to-hand combat in some tunnel. Likewise, if the PCs find themselves on a balcony, looking down at oblivious orcs who are carrying barrels of flammable oil, the encounter is likely to be much easier than if the orcs were aware of the PCs.
Consider the sorts of factors, related to location or situation, that make an encounter more difficult, such as the following.
• Enemy has cover (for example, behind a low wall).
• Enemy is at higher elevation or is hard to get at (on a ledge or atop a defensible wall).
• Enemy has guaranteed surprise (PCs are asleep).
...
Conversely, the first three conditions given above make encounters easier from the PCs’ point of view if they are the ones benefiting from the cover, elevation, or surprise.

[Pinkie Pyro]

One I always do in my lower-OP settings: enhance critical weaknesses

evil outsider with DR? splash holy water on it and that DR is completely negated for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

stuff like that.

[King of Nowhere]

i once used a giant scorpion that was missing a claw as a result of a previous combat.

aside from that, if i need halfway through the battle to tone down a monster that's threatening a tpk, i have them act dumber.

[Zanos]

Some in universe ways are physical injuries or resource expenditures from previous fights. If something has already been in a fight it could have less HP or less uses of SLAs.

A think a big one is damage reduction that isn't easily overcome. I've had demons that were deliberately flensed drop their damage reduction a bit, since 10/Good for example can be pretty hard to deal with without specific preparations.


Do exactly as the book directs you to.

Age of Worms for example, the final encounter in the first module are two elementals that have perfect flying with an at-will 2d6 sonic attack with reflex for half at range.
The book tells you to open with the ranged sonic attack and then melee the PCs until they die. Whole party took em out relatively easily.
What I did was have them hover over the PCs and focus fire the wizard in the first round and then anyone with ranged capabilities. And then just kite the melee types until they die. It was a TPK and my entire party called BS on me.

Likewise if you read the strategy sections of the monster entries, they direct you to play them subpar. Just follow the directions instead of using your brain.
In that specific case I would also call BS. As far as I know basically every elemental has intelligence closer to an animal than a person.

[gogogome]

In that specific case I would also call BS. As far as I know basically every elemental has intelligence closer to an animal than a person.

8 intelligence is animal intelligence? If you say so....

[Efrate]

Pathfinder has the young and the advanced template that can alter encounters, and you can apply them multiple times, gaining or losing X CR each application. Should be pretty easy to port to 3.5.

On the elementals in that case, I think they had above average intelligence, I vaguely remember the discussion, but I think they has positive int modifiers so it was within their grasp to actually fight smart.

[Asmotherion]

If you want faster combat, remove HP.

Either way, the moment one of the players comes up with a plan that works, everyone will probably mimick them.

Removing a ton of HP from monsters and an equivalent amount from players, combat is mostly the same, but now it takes 1-3 turns for it's resolution.

[Zanos]

8 intelligence is animal intelligence? If you say so....
I wasn't familiar with the specific creatures; the Small/Medium elementals in the MM have 4 intelligence. Still, 8 seems a bit low to identify and specifically isolate spellcasters and ranged attackers, and then organized a tactical retreat with covering fire.

[Efrate]

8 int is common half orc int. Or anyone who dumps int via point buy starting int. A orc could very easily do it, so could they. Analyzing a threat and taking it out safely doesnt require much intelligence. Maybe it takes a round to figure out, but it's very much within possibility.

[Zanos]

8 int is common half orc int. Or anyone who dumps int via point buy starting int. A orc could very easily do it, so could they. Analyzing a threat and taking it out safely doesnt require much intelligence. Maybe it takes a round to figure out, but it's very much within possibility.
Maybe if you're generally familiar with humanoid combatants, which elementals would not be. In any case I'd argue that a 8 int half-orcs combat tactics probably are not very advanced.

Edit: In any case, it seems the writers of the module did understand that elementals are not all that clever and don't use very advanced combat tactics, considering the example tactics they put in the book.

[icefractal]

Maybe if you're generally familiar with humanoid combatants, which elementals would not be. In any case I'd argue that a 8 int half-orcs combat tactics probably are not very advanced."Stay in the air where they can't hit you but you can hit them" is not what I would remotely call "advanced" tactics.

Maybe an unfamiliarity with humanoids would mean they don't recognize which ones are the better ranged attackers until ranged attacks start happening, but "target the ones who are hurting you the most" is an extremely basic tactic; it's what I'd do for animal level opponents if both targets were equally easy to reach (which they are for the elementals).

This makes for ****ty gameplay? Yeah, then maybe don't make monsters with such good kiting abilities. There's no reason they had to have that.

[Tvtyrant]

Maybe if you're generally familiar with humanoid combatants, which elementals would not be. In any case I'd argue that a 8 int half-orcs combat tactics probably are not very advanced.

Edit: In any case, it seems the writers of the module did understand that elementals are not all that clever and don't use very advanced combat tactics, considering the example tactics they put in the book.

Dumb animals are capable advanced tactics. Implying that a Human can't figure out kiting while lions, wolves and dolphins are all capable of intricate hunting tactics feels absurd to me.

[Thurbane]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81OejcsrwcL._AC_SX679_.jpg

[tiercel]

I’m going to at least partly agree with some of the “derail” discussion above and say relative optimization level really has to come into any figuring of XP/CR/EL. If you have a classic single-classed beatstick, healbot, blaster, skillmonkey, 25-point-buy, beer-and-pretzels kick-in-the-door adventuring party, then you have to figure things a little differently from Druid, Ruby Knight WINdicator, Incantatrix, Unseen Seer, 32-point-buy, 15-minute-adventuring-day, Sun-Tzu-was-an-amateur party. In the case of the latter party, making a monster “less challenging” probably indeed means running it mostly straight out of a Monster Manual/published adventure without tweaks. (For instance, any opponent with presumably-significant-for-its-CR “spell resistance” I consider to be “less challenging” vs a party heavily loaded with “nonmagical magic SR:No” spells and/or plenty of boosts to caster level or caster level checks, the same way that undead are “less challenging” to some poor schmuck of a Cleric who thinks Turn Undead is actually for turning undead :p )

Having said that, I think that encounter circumstances are a huge swing factor. Either giving, or making it a lot easier to get, the drop on opponents is worth a lot - even for the beer-and-pretzels crowd, just gaining surprise/going first is significant, never mind the buffstack/battlefield control horrors an even relatively optimized party might unleash with the ability to plan in advance. This doesn’t even require necessarily changing stats, of course.

The other consideration is that your typical opponent is at 100% resources while the PCs (outside of 15-minute-adventuring days) may not necessarily be so — so simply reducing opponent resources (less than max hitpoints, not having full access to all its gear, having already used some spells/spellslots/limited-use SLAs for the day, even having its SR down at the beginning of the encounter to benefit from others’ buffs or healing, etc.) can certainly reduce the effective challenge without reworking stats.

Finally, when it comes to reworking stats, from a gaming point of view instead of a comprehensive debuff I just look to say “what ability does the foe have that is most immediately a real problem for the PCs?” and just adjust stats or circumstances to most effectively reduce the chance of a TPK due to a single overwhelming tactic. An insane grapple-check monster gets visibly singed, pitted limbs, a giant is missing its mighty sword and is caught without boulders and must rely on slam attacks, the PCs free an ensorcelled NPC who can buff them vs mind-affecting effects before taking on an aboleth, or a dragon’s wings are torn and tattered. (In any of these cases, it presumably should be at least somehow evident to PCs —at least, using a relevant Knowledge check — that they have an advantage they can press, so they have a chance to gauge the actual difficulty of this fight and not unduly lower their expectation of a more “typical” example of that same opponent later, causing them to underestimate to their own peril.)

Personally, I lean in the direction of upgunning (optimizing, advancing, templating, and/or granting class levels to) weaker opponents than nerfing “too-strong” opponents, but it’s good to have more options.

[daremetoidareyo]

You can adjust CR for environments too. Large critters blowing movement to stoop through doorways, etc. Pcs have to be the more tactical sort tho

[Toliudar]

I find that the most enjoyable way to depower monsters is, as noted by Particle_Man above, to let the PC's shine in their choices. If they tried for any kind of advance planning or trickery at all, reward that. Let the monster's fall for the bluff. Fudge to let the fighter use 'leverage' to push the giant off a cliff. Allow cinematic choices to have cinematic consequences.

[I3igAl]

Reskinning something of a lower CR can work really well, if those monsters don't have any super exotic abillities and a roughly similar bodyshape.

Unless they memorized the entire Monster Manual, your players cannot know, your bullette actually used the statblock for a common brown bear or lion. It works especially well in DnD 3.X, where AC and attacks mostly scale with level not with fluff.


Pathfinder has the young and the advanced template that can alter encounters, and you can apply them multiple times, gaining or losing X CR each application. Should be pretty easy to port to 3.5.

On the elementals in that case, I think they had above average intelligence, I vaguely remember the discussion, but I think they has positive int modifiers so it was within their grasp to actually fight smart.

They are super simple and can be applied on the fly. Degenerate also works the same way.

[ShurikVch]

In case of intelligent living monsters - make them drunken (without levels in the Drunken Master)