Incorporeal mount?

[Quertus]

There are so many potential problems with mounts, not the least of which being getting them to fit in a dungeon.

But what if the mount were incorporeal?

Could (for example) a ghost Dragon fly around, flying through walls, carrying their passenger through the city / dungeon / etc?

If this is even non-nonsensical, how would one go about riding an incorporeal mount? And what are the likely issues (logistical, or rules-wise) to watch out for?

[Saintheart]

And what are the likely issues (logistical, or rules-wise) to watch out for?

Flying DMGs?

[newguydude1]

incorporeals cannot fully immerse themselves in a wall. if the wall is thicker than the creature he cannot walk through it.

"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

incorporeals cannot fully immerse themselves in a wall. if the wall is thicker than the creature he cannot walk through it.

"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own"This is what awakened titanic warbeast mounts with fiend of possession levels are for. That, or levels in ghost with LA buyoff in play.

Also, add ghost touch to your body and equipment so you actually can ride it.

Alternatively, bind the phase cloak soulmeld to your shoulders slot. Doable quite early with levels in psion, psionic open chakra, and a bit of ML boosting/cost reduction.

[Crake]

incorporeals cannot fully immerse themselves in a wall. if the wall is thicker than the creature he cannot walk through it.

"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own"

Incorporeal, yes, however ghosts are actually ethereal, and can manifest on the material as incorporeal creatures, so a ghost COULD pass through whatever they wished, as long as there were no obstructions on the adjacent ethereal plane.

As for actually riding an incorporeal creature, there's rules for creating magical gear that incorporeal creatures can use in savage species, which merely increases the item's cost by 10%, though the base item needs to itself be magical as well. So you could have a ghost touch saddle of say, +5 ride for 2750gp that a rider could ride about in, while also letting the mount pass through walls when not mounted by a corporeal rider. This is explicitly stated in savage species, such ghost touch equipment counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given moment, whichever would be most beneficial to the wearer. Savage species page 42-43 for anyone interested, there's the sidebar which explains applying ghost touch to any item, and the cost increase, and also the ghost touch section under "New uses for existing special abilities" which explains that such ghost touch items can be treated as incorporeal should the wearer decide.

[Darrin]

It's not incorporeal, but might do something similar to what you're looking for:

Stone Flyer (Underdark p. 99). Always-on earthglide for mount and rider. Turns every dungeon with stone walls into a cakewalk, so you may get books thrown at your head.

[Quertus]

Wow. So it's easier than I though, and there's better answers than I was looking for. Ghost touch saddle and Stone Flyer both actually allow the mount to *completely* pass through walls; the latter *with* rider. It sounds like several other options are even more than I was looking for, too, but I'll have to research them to understand how they work.

I was actually just looking for… hmmm… "must remain adjacent to object's exterior", assuming that the rider would remain attached, but a "normal" mount would be too big to fit.

So, it sounds like the answer is, "yes. Not just yes, heck yes." Seems that there's multiple ways to skin this cat, and better than I'd expected.

[ShurikVch]

Kingdoms of Kalamar have Phantom Steed (in the Stand and Deliver)
Description says it's able to carry up to 2 riders, while being Incorporeal
Since everything which Incorporeal creature carrying is Incorporeal too, rider(s) would be Incorporeal while riding it
Amusingly, its alignment is LG

[Segev]

If you can win one’s loyalty, an ecalypse is a horse-like outsider that can make its rider incorporeal along with it.

[Crake]

Since everything which Incorporeal creature carrying is Incorporeal too, rider(s) would be Incorporeal while riding it

Citation needed?

[ShurikVch]

Citation needed?
Incorporeal subtype (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_incorporealsubtype&alpha=):

Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature's possession. An object that the creature relinquishes loses its incorporeal quality (and the creature loses the ability to manipulate the object).

[Quertus]

Well, now, that's an interesting wrinkle. So long as the rider is "carried" by the incorporeal creature, they are incorporeal, too? That's going to make mounted combat (unless melee with Ghost Touch) a lot more difficult, I think.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, now, that's an interesting wrinkle. So long as the rider is "carried" by the incorporeal creature, they are incorporeal, too? That's going to make mounted combat (unless melee with Ghost Touch) a lot more difficult, I think.To be fair, nobody's getting an incorporeal mount unless they're planning for incorporeal combat, so some effort might just be justified.

Also, spellcasting and manifesting while incorporeal work just fine unless you're relying on handheld weaponry or touch attacks. Just gotta make those Concentration checks, although I can't imagine flying while incorporeal is a terribly rough ride.

[Blue Jay]

Incorporeal subtype (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_incorporealsubtype&alpha=):

The entry uses the word "equipment." Do you think that includes a rider? I think that will need some further justification.

Also, if I remember right, the rules technically don't include any means of calculating carrying capacity for an incorporeal creature, so that's something to consider for options that "bridge the gap," like the Ghostly Grasp feat.

[Segev]

I just want to repeat that the ecalypse is a horse-like creature in the Manual of the Planes that is from the plane of shadow, and gives the desired incorporeality to its rider.

It is under a different heading as a group of creature types, and I’m AFB and can’t remember what that was, but I thing it starts with E or S.

Effective DC 35 ride check needed to tame one.

[LadyIslay]

incorporeals cannot fully immerse themselves in a wall. if the wall is thicker than the creature he cannot walk through it.

"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own"

Newbie here. Can you advise as to where the quoted rule can be found in print? Is it in the SRD?

[newguydude1]

Newbie here. Can you advise as to where the quoted rule can be found in print? Is it in the SRD?

on the srd under types and subtypes. clicking the incorporeal subtype on a monster entry like shadow will also take you there
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

[Crake]

Incorporeal subtype (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_incorporealsubtype&alpha=):

So as noted by someone else, that specifies equipment, not anything that the incorporeal creature carries. Secondly, incorporeal creatures can't even pick up non-ghost touch objects, as they just pass right through the items, since, y'know, they lack strength scores, so under normal circumstances, even if what you posit to be true, an incorporeal mount still wouldn't actually be able to pick up a rider to "carry them" without some kind of extra equipment to make that possible in the first place.

[Blue Jay]

I just want to repeat that the ecalypse is a horse-like creature in the Manual of the Planes that is from the plane of shadow, and gives the desired incorporeality to its rider.

It is under a different heading as a group of creature types, and I’m AFB and can’t remember what that was, but I thing it starts with E or S.

Effective DC 35 ride check needed to tame one.

Ephemera. And you're right: that's really awesome, and it's exactly what the OP is looking for. I evaluated it as LA +0 for a PC, but as a mount it's really rather awesome.

The ecalypse can actually switch between corporeal and incorporeal, so you can go through walls and still capitalize on mounted charging shenanigans and whatnot at the same time.

[Segev]

Ephemera. And you're right: that's really awesome, and it's exactly what the OP is looking for. I evaluated it as LA +0 for a PC, but as a mount it's really rather awesome.

The ecalypse can actually switch between corporeal and incorporeal, so you can go through walls and still capitalize on mounted charging shenanigans and whatnot at the same time.

“Ephemera!” That’s the group name; thanks!

And for clarity, it takes a standard action for them to turn incorporeal (and presumably to become corporeal again), so they do have to be one or the other for a full round. If you want to engage in charging shenanigans, they’d need to be while it’s corporeal, or you’ll need a ghost touch lance or other weapon.

An ecalypse also has 85 hp and can fly at a speed of 90 ft with good maneuverability. So they can hover, too.

At CR 9, it would not be unreasonable to try to tame one around level 9 or 10. You could possibly succeed earlier if you can get at least a +15 to ride, but that’s relying on a 20 on your ride check. You need to successfully find and mount one that is trying to resist you and make a saddle-less DC 30 ride check to tame one and earn its loyalty. The lack of saddle imposes a -5 on the roll, making it effectively DC 35.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a mount with the shoulders-bound phase cloak? Yeah, it'd almost require an intelligent mount of fairly high level or some casting/manifesting shenanigans (and/or some animal tricks spent), but the mount can go ethereal whenever it moves, taking you along for the ride.

[GrayDeath]

If you can win one’s loyalty, an ecalypse isn’t a horse-like outsider that can make its rider incorporeal along with it.

Correct.
Instead it is this:
https://www.google.com/search?channel=trow2&client=firefox-b-d&q=ecalypse



Well, if you want to ride THAT....who am I to stop you.....^^

[Segev]

Correct.
Instead it is this:
https://www.google.com/search?channel=trow2&client=firefox-b-d&q=ecalypse



Well, if you want to ride THAT....who am I to stop you.....^^

Hah, good catch. Corrected. And well-played.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Correct.
Instead it is this:
https://www.google.com/search?channel=trow2&client=firefox-b-d&q=ecalypseWell, they do say that physical wealth is both ephemeral and fleeting...

[GrayDeath]

Well, they do say that physical wealth is both ephemeral and fleeting...

Dont tell my players.

Ben will otherwise insist that a sack of money has Flight 60/good and can cast Expeditious retreat. ^^

[Batcathat]

Dont tell my players.

Ben will otherwise insist that a sack of money has Flight 60/good and can cast Expeditious retreat. ^^

Heh, now I really wanna create a magic system based on sayings and metaphors.

[Segev]

Heh, now I really wanna create a magic system based on sayings and metaphors.

I recommend the Xanth series of novels by Piers Anthony, the first novel of which is A Spell for Chameleon.