Dual-Progression PrCs and Epic rules

[Telonius]

Trying to wrap my brain around some Epic rules. We've never actually made it to Epic levels before, but there's a decent chance the current campaign will reach that.

So let's say I have a Cleric5/Warlock5/Eldritch Disciple10. (Never mind bad optimization, just using even numbers for the sake of simplicity; my actual build is a lot more complicated). If I reach level 21, what would happen if I decide to take additional levels in Warlock? If I'm getting this correctly, I'd use the Epic progression for saves etc., but since I'd still be using regular Warlock levels (not Epic levels). I'd get the Warlock "special" class ability column, correct?

For Invocation progression, would I then progress as a regular Warlock would at level 21 (and cast as a 16th-level invoker) through 25 (and cast as a 20th-level invoker), getting new invocations as usual? What would happen at Level 26 then - still have to keep going as Regular Warlock (not Epic Warlock), but just get the Special column and not the new Invocations, until Warlock levels total 20? Or do I "count" as a 20th-level Warlock as soon as I'm casting as a 20th-level Invoker?

[Khedrac]

You cannot take levels of Epic Warlock until you have 20 levels in the Warlock class.

If you have a prestige class that boosts any of your warlock progression abilities things get complicated and you need to check the wording of the abilities very carefully:

Abilities that say "increase every X levels" will continue to increase past effective warlock 20.
Abilities that say "you get this at level X and this at level Y" stop at level 20 and no new increases are gained until you take a class that explicitly grants them (such as epic warlock).

In general if a game is likely to go epic, you need to talk to you DM before you plan your level up (which means that for most long campaigns you find you have a build not suitable for epic play).
Just a few levels (e.g. 1 to 3) of epic play with a build that stops its core progression at level 20 should be OK, but if the campaign is likely to keep going then you need to talk to your DM about rebuilds - and the chances are the rest of the party will also need a rebuild.

If your build is similar to the one posted, then you need to look at your 10-level prestige class, write an epic extension for it and then get DM sign-off on it. Unfortunately the rules do require prestige class to have (at least) 10 levels before it can have an epic version so if you have taken all of a 5-level class you will have problems. Again, if you need to have a couple of "dead" levels past 20 to get to 10th in the PC it's probably worth it.

The next problem is writing the epic prestige class, and here things get much worse.
The only available offical example to base things on is Epic Mystic Theurge, and it is probably worse than taking alternating levels of cleric and wizard! It ceases to be a dual progression class and becomes an alternating progression class! (Add in only getting a bonus epic feat every 6 levels and I think taking alternating levels of non-epic cleric and wizard is actually a better choice.)
Hopefully you can convince your DM that a genuine dual progression epic prestige class makes more sense; my suggestions is write what you thin is sensible (wthout going over-powered) but prepare a fall-back plan for if the DM says "no".

Edit: also talk to your DM about the "gain X and level Y" abilities (like eldritch blast) they may allow you to use the epic warlock table for those abilities based off yoru effective warlock level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just because your character is epic level, doesn't mean your classes are epic level.

If your character is epic level, you replace the BAB and base save progressions of every class level you gain with the epic progressions, no exceptions.

A given class is only epic level if you have 21 or more levels in that base class, or if you have more than the printed max levels in that prestige class. If it doesn't fit that criteria, you're just gaining more non-epic levels in that class as an epic level character.

If you use a prestige class to advance your Warlock casting, then continue taking more non-epic Warlock levels until your effective level for the features the prestige class improved goes past 20th, you use an epic progression for that portion only. So per the epic level Warlock progression in Complete Arcane p189, you don't learn any more invocations past an effective Warlock level of 20th, your Eldritch Blast damage increases at every even-numbered level after 20th, which would follow your effective Warlock level including prestige class advancement. Your caster level for all those things is equal to your Warlock level plus any prestige class levels that increase your caster level.

Also don't forget that there are specific epic feats for Warlocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a).

[Khedrac]

So per the epic level Warlock progression in Complete Arcane p189, you don't learn any more invocations past an effective Warlock level of 20th, your Eldritch Blast damage increases at every even-numbered level after 20th, which would follow your effective Warlock level including prestige class advancement.

Now that's the debateable part. I think I would rule it that way as a DM, but it is not RAW.

RAW for an epic warlock (which the character is not) is to advance the blast damage every other level.
RAW for a (non-epic) warlock is to follow the table to level 20 and stop there.
If you extrapolate from the non-epic warlock table it would be +1d6 damage every three levels not every 2.

Edit: it's a very grey area, and RAW is not clear cut. Your best option here is to discuss with your DM and see what they think RAW is and hope it's a playable interpetation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Now that's the debateable part. I think I would rule it that way as a DM, but it is not RAW.

RAW for an epic warlock (which the character is not) is to advance the blast damage every other level.
RAW for a (non-epic) warlock is to follow the table to level 20 and stop there.
If you extrapolate from the non-epic warlock table it would be +1d6 damage every three levels not every 2.

Edit: it's a very grey area, and RAW is not clear cut. Your best option here is to discuss with your DM and see what they think RAW is and hope it's a playable interpetation.

First of all, the RAW is in Complete Arcane p189, in plain black and white. That very specifically says at every even-numbered Warlock level above 20th the EB damage increases by another 1d6.

Second, the 1-20 progression isn't consistent. It's 1d6 every odd-numbered level from 1-11, then another 1d6 every three levels beyond that at 14, 17, and 20. So picking it up at 22 continues that brief every-three-levels progression for one level, then resumes the every-other-level that lasted for most of the Warlock's career.

[Khedrac]

First of all, the RAW is in Complete Arcane p189, in plain black and white. That very specifically says at every even-numbered epic Warlock level above 20th the EB damage increases by another 1d6.

Fixed that for you - and this is where it's a matter of interpretation - is it talking about warlocks (class) who happen to be epic (level > 20) or epic warlocks (epic class)?
If it is the former, then the same should apply to the text about damage reduction and bonus feats which I don't think your are saying...

Personally I do think it is reasonable to allow the eldritch blast progression to apply to any character with an effective warlock level over 20, but it is a real stretch to call it RAW.

And this is why the advice comes back down to "discuss with your DM and see if the pair of you can agree a way for you to progress that works for both of you".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fixed that for you - and this is where it's a matter of interpretation - is it talking about warlocks (class) who happen to be epic (level > 20) or epic warlocks (epic class)?
If it is the former, then the same should apply to the text about damage reduction and bonus feats which I don't think your are saying...

Personally I do think it is reasonable to allow the eldritch blast progression to apply to any character with an effective warlock level over 20, but it is a real stretch to call it RAW.

And this is why the advice comes back down to "discuss with your DM and see if the pair of you can agree a way for you to progress that works for both of you".

"At each level, you gain new invocations known and an increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. (This includes eldritch blast)"

As if you'd gained a level of Warlock, so if your effective Warlock level is above 20th because of a Warlock-advancing prestige class, you use the epic progression. It acts like it's just more Warlock levels where that class feature is concerned.

[DarkSoul]

Trying to wrap my brain around some Epic rules. We've never actually made it to Epic levels before, but there's a decent chance the current campaign will reach that.

So let's say I have a Cleric5/Warlock5/Eldritch Disciple10. (Never mind bad optimization, just using even numbers for the sake of simplicity; my actual build is a lot more complicated). If I reach level 21, what would happen if I decide to take additional levels in Warlock? If I'm getting this correctly, I'd use the Epic progression for saves etc., but since I'd still be using regular Warlock levels (not Epic levels). I'd get the Warlock "special" class ability column, correct?

For Invocation progression, would I then progress as a regular Warlock would at level 21 (and cast as a 16th-level invoker) through 25 (and cast as a 20th-level invoker), getting new invocations as usual? What would happen at Level 26 then - still have to keep going as Regular Warlock (not Epic Warlock), but just get the Special column and not the new Invocations, until Warlock levels total 20? Or do I "count" as a 20th-level Warlock as soon as I'm casting as a 20th-level Invoker?
If you take a warlock level at 21, you gain an invocation known (10 total) from being a 16th-level invoker. You can swap an invocation of any grade you know for another one, from being a 16th level invoker. You don't get the level 6 swap, you would have got that from ED 1.

With that character, I'd look at either taking cleric levels at 21-23 or 24 because it'll open up 8th- and 9th-level spells and you'll be able to get Epic Spellcasting for your level 24 feat. Otherwise, depending on what the epic progression for ED looks like (the DM will have to create it), I'd look at that. You're going to want to start getting epic feats ASAP, especially Epic Spellcasting, and an epic prestige class progression will very like include bonus epic feats. If Epic Spellcasting is banned, then you'll want to look at what's available and decide from there. I think I'd still look at progressing cleric to 9th level spells, though.

If you decide to progress warlock, you'll be at 15th warlock level at level 20 for purposes of invocation progression and EB damage. At level 26 you'd start using the epic warlock progression for EB and invocation progression (if any). Your other warlock abilities will still progress according to the nonepic warlock table.