Is Polymorph overrated?

[Frogreaver]

I've often heard it said that Polymorph is a great healing spell. I want to challenge that idea. It's also not nearly as impressive at damage as it's typically made out to be.

Let's take a look at what most basic healing spells can do:
1. They permanently restore hp until damage is taken again
2. They restore consciousness if you have dropped to 0 hp - effectively restoring any lost action economy the party had due to the downed character.

Polymorph doesn't do either of those things. Instead I would call it a strong defensive buff in that it can grant a character alot of additional effective hp for a duration. In the best case for Polymorph as a defensive buff, it will be more effective at keeping a character from dropping to 0 than attempting to use a similar level heal spell in combat to do so.

However, there are 2 major downsides to using Polymorph as a defensive buff at the moment a character needs additional defense:
1. It's concentration and thus anything you were already concentrating on gets ended. Concentrating on something like hypnotic pattern or conjure animals and casting a level 1 or 2 healing spell when someone is downed or severely injured has a good chance of being a better move than having casted hypnotic pattern or conjure animals at the start of the fight and then casting polymorph mid fight.
2. A 4th level slot is a fairly high slot level. Using say a single level 2 slot on cure wounds or healing word may very well get the character through the combat so that more efficient out of combat healing resources can then be applied.

Then there are the other minor downsides to polymorph.
3. The most commonly cited creature to transform into (Giant Ape) has a very low AC of 12. Low AC makes it hard for casters to keep concentration on any spells that are concentrating on.
4. The Giant Ape has low mental stats which means low mental saves - which can more easily result in the character losing actions to many status effects.

Let's talk about it's damage for a moment. A little higher attack roll and much higher damage per hit than any melee character at a comparable level. So why isn't it good damage? Because by level 7 you need ways to overcome non-magical damage resistance and the Giant Ape fails. It's damage is going to be halved which will put it below most martial party members that have a magical weapon. It's still a decent damage buff on another caster.

IMO, the spell fails at being a particularly good prebuff / first turn of combat spell, except in the most particular circumstances. It fails at being a particularly good spell to save a party member given the issues around concentration and that you are most likely to already be concentrating on a better spell. It's not a terrible spell as it still has a use, you can prebuff it on another caster and turn him into a decent melee warrior for a while. I guess on a Wizard that doesn't have healing spells it's at least a passable emergency alternative. I just don't see how that's enough to make it as good of a spell as people claim - especially on bards/druids.

Feel free to disagree. My feelings won't be hurt any :)

[Toadkiller]

I have never thought of it as a healing spell and only secondarily as a damage dealer. I think of it as fun! Somebody getting to be a giant ape or T. rex or some such is, or can be, a hoot.

It can also toss down some fairly serious damage and be a fun way to turn a fight around. We had a notable occasion when the tank was down to the last few HP- boom he’s a giant ape who got to run around smashing. Then we healed him later or took a rest or something. I don’t remember any occasions from the last few years where we had that much fun with a fireball or a mass healing word.

[kazaryu]

I've often heard it said that Polymorph is a great healing spell. I want to challenge that idea. It's also not nearly as impressive at damage as it's typically made out to be.

Let's take a look at what most basic healing spells can do:
1. They permanently restore hp until damage is taken again
2. They restore consciousness if you have dropped to 0 hp - effectively restoring any lost action economy the party had due to the downed character.

Polymorph doesn't do either of those things. Instead I would call it a strong defensive buff in that it can grant a character alot of additional effective hp for a duration. In the best case for Polymorph as a defensive buff, it will be more effective at keeping a character from dropping to 0 than attempting to use a similar level heal spell in combat to do so.

However, there are 2 major downsides to using Polymorph as a defensive buff at the moment a character needs additional defense:
1. It's concentration and thus anything you were already concentrating on gets ended. Concentrating on something like hypnotic pattern or conjure animals and casting a level 1 or 2 healing spell when someone is downed or severely injured has a good chance of being a better move than having casted hypnotic pattern or conjure animals at the start of the fight and then casting polymorph mid fight.
2. A 4th level slot is a fairly high slot level. Using say a single level 2 slot on cure wounds or healing word may very well get the character through the combat so that more efficient out of combat healing resources can then be applied.

Then there are the other minor downsides to polymorph.
3. The most commonly cited creature to transform into (Giant Ape) has a very low AC of 12. Low AC makes it hard for casters to keep concentration on any spells that are concentrating on.
4. The Giant Ape has low mental stats which means low mental saves - which can more easily result in the character losing actions to many status effects.

Let's talk about it's damage for a moment. A little higher attack roll and much higher damage per hit than any melee character at a comparable level. So why isn't it good damage? Because by level 7 you need ways to overcome non-magical damage resistance and the Giant Ape fails. It's damage is going to be halved which will put it below most martial party members that have a magical weapon. It's still a decent damage buff on another caster.

IMO, the spell fails at being a particularly good prebuff / first turn of combat spell, except in the most particular circumstances. It fails at being a particularly good spell to save a party member given the issues around concentration and that you are most likely to already be concentrating on a better spell. It's not a terrible spell as it still has a use, you can prebuff it on another caster and turn him into a decent melee warrior for a while. I guess on a Wizard that doesn't have healing spells it's at least a passable emergency alternative. I just don't see how that's enough to make it as good of a spell as people claim - especially on bards/druids.

Feel free to disagree. My feelings won't be hurt any :)

lemme just start off that i've not seen it referred to as a 'healing' spell. that being said i don't read anywhere near everything, so i don't doubt it. with that being said i think the point of calling it a 'healing' spell is that the only way to effectively combat 'heal' in 5e is to prevent damage altogether. which a precast polymorph does really well. couple that with the fact that turning a martial character into a t-rex is a good way to focus damage on them, instead of the backline. not perfect, of course, but its tough to ignore a rex.

as far as damage, i mean yes, there are monsters at that cr that have resistance to non magic damage, but such monsters exist at even lower CR's. its more about the campaign and the types of monsters you're likely to encounter. point being that mileage may vary, but thats true of most things.

[Eldariel]

It's a great defensive buff indeed, that doubles as a save-or-lose AND a utility spell. That's part of why it's so strong. Secondly, aside from GWM/PAM, any build has hard time matching the at-will of a Giant Ape. +9/+9 for 45 average damage is extremely competitive with what e.g. level 7 Fighter can output after burning short rest resources (maneuver-novaing level 10 Battlemaster with PAM/GWM vs. AC17 is looking at about 52 damage per turn on average (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24686821&postcount=39) - without the maneuvers it drops to ~28 DPR vs. AC 17 while Giant Ape hits for ~33). And it can grapple/shove anything (Huge creature with Athletics proficiency and extremely decent Str gives it decent odds even against Ancient Wyrms and Tarrasques) while also providing that fairly sizable 157 HP buffer (by comparison, your average level 7 16 Con Barbarian that has put their ASI into Tough has 89).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it wasn't a great 1st round buff. And that's also the key to one of your criticisms: that you need to kill any concentration spells to do it.
As an example our 7th level group ran into 2 frost giants and 2 vrocks tonight. A less experienced player with a Cleric asked about Polymorph right away, and I said no, non-concentration spell or do damage. By round 2 my Sorcerer Fighter had a handful of hp left after being hit by a 48 hp crit from one of the frost giants. Then Preso: Giant Ape, but not before I'd managed to AOE them with a quickened Fireball and hit with GFB. We mopped the floor with them.
So, yeah, wait until a party member has burned some of their resources and is heavily damaged. And don't burn another concentration spell if you figure you are going to need it.

[MrStabby]

Polymorph is just such an efficient use of a spell known/prepared. The variability of beasts means it's easy to use polymorph to solve problems out of combat such as getting to inaccessible places or moving heavy objects.

I combat, yes you can kind of use it for healing or you can use it to take a caster out of spells and bring them back to the fight. You can pick combat abilities to match the enemies you are fighting and exploit their weaknesses.

And you can cast it on enemies. The disabling effects of the spell when you turn someone into a fish and have them helplessly flapping about on the floor should not be underestimated.

It's great not just because of its power but also because of its versatility.

[Hael]

I don’t understand these arguments.

It is a healing spell. You’ve just provided 100+ hp to your ally who is near death. On top of that, you’ve given him utility, high damage and movement.

Saying it hurts concentration doesn’t make sense. First of all, the characters who typically need this are frontline, and they tend to not be concentrating as much. Second of all, if you are casting it on them in the first place, it likely means they’re low and about to die. If they die, they don’t mantain concentration.

If you are using this as a prebuff (which is strong) on someone, then that person should perhaps be concentrating on an appropriate spell that prevents him from being hit (flying/greater invis). Alternatively, you cast it on the person with the strong con saves/feats. Or they just wait to use a concentration spell until after the free temp hp goes away.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In one major fight I was in one of the numerous foes were were fighting was a purple worm. At first I managed to delay its emerging from the ground a few rounds by putting a wall force flat against the ground. When it did finally emerge I polymophed it into a small turtle.(rather helpless and slow). Then in my next turn I put it in a bag and had my familiar fly that bag out over the ocean.
Kept concentrating on that spell through the whole fight. The whole hour actually. I presume something like purple worm probably cant swim but if it can it decided against returning to town after swinging through miles of ocean.
In a different campaign the sorcerer polymorphed two creatures into something rather helpless. (Twined spell). Which removed them from the fight until after we dealt with their allies.

Would have worked better if we hadnÂ’t got rid of that bag of devouring. But no everyone else said what good does that bag do us?

[Guy Lombard-O]

In the past I have (tongue in cheek) referred to Polymorph as a "healing" spell when used in a certain way. If I'm a caster and one of my allies has blown through most of their expendable combat resources and is pretty beat up, then casting Polymorph on them makes a great replacement for an actual healing spell. Obviously, it's really a buff and not a heal. But if my choices are to cast a 4th level Cure Wounds or Healing Word, or to Polymorph that ally into a giant ape or T-rex, then it's pretty clearly the best option for that combat in many circumstances.

Breaking my concentration on another spell might be required, and that might situationally be bad. But by the time my ally is in such bad shape as to justify this type of Polymorph, we're probably into at least the second or third round of combat. So my previous Hypnotic Pattern or conjured animals might well have been dispelled, or have lost most of its effect by then, or I may have taken a couple hits and lost concentration on it by then. Or, I may decide that the remaining effects of that previous spell are less important than saving my comrade from imminent death by giving him 150 temp HP and some pretty effective melee attacks (had a barbarian with Savage Attacker get some pretty effective mileage out of the giant ape).

Also, there's the possibility that my concentration on the Polymorph will get broken. That certainly a very real difference than a true healing spell - the HP given are temporary in every sense, and might not even last the round. Again, that's a tactical decision which I'd need to weigh before using Polymorph as a replacement for true healing. But where I think the risk is warranted, Polymorph has a much greater impact on the combat encounter than 20-odd HP of healing will from that 4th level slot.

I'm not saying it's always the right choice. But it definitely is in the right circumstances. And those circumstances are reasonably common - enough so that I'll often forgo taking or preparing Cure Wounds in tier 2 play. (Plus, of course, all the other ways Polymorph can be used make it all-around great).

[Frogreaver]

I have never thought of it as a healing spell and only secondarily as a damage dealer. I think of it as fun! Somebody getting to be a giant ape or T. rex or some such is, or can be, a hoot.

It can also toss down some fairly serious damage and be a fun way to turn a fight around. We had a notable occasion when the tank was down to the last few HP- boom heÂ’s a giant ape who got to run around smashing. Then we healed him later or took a rest or something. I donÂ’t remember any occasions from the last few years where we had that much fun with a fireball or a mass healing word.

I think the fun argument is worth noting but it's also worth noting the spell isn't rated highly because it's fun.

Let's talk about your example for a moment. You have a caster that presumably hasn't cast a concentration spell yet and it's mid-fight and then he uses polymorph because he has a severly injured ally. That sounds great, but we have to factor in the opportunity cost there. What if instead the caster had used hypnotic pattern or conjure animals at the start of the encounter - would the ally have even been severly injured and needed healing in the first place?


lemme just start off that i've not seen it referred to as a 'healing' spell. that being said i don't read anywhere near everything, so i don't doubt it. with that being said i think the point of calling it a 'healing' spell is that the only way to effectively combat 'heal' in 5e is to prevent damage altogether. which a precast polymorph does really well. couple that with the fact that turning a martial character into a t-rex is a good way to focus damage on them, instead of the backline. not perfect, of course, but its tough to ignore a rex.

I agree there. I'm pretty sure my opening post agrees there as well :smallsmile:


as far as damage, i mean yes, there are monsters at that cr that have resistance to non magic damage, but such monsters exist at even lower CR's. its more about the campaign and the types of monsters you're likely to encounter. point being that mileage may vary, but thats true of most things.

As you increase in level you tend to encounter more and more monsters with resistance to non-magical damage. They tend to go from very rare encounters at level 1 to fairly common at the levels we are talking about. ***Note any particular campaign could be different - but it's the exception and not the rule.


It's a great defensive buff indeed, that doubles as a save-or-lose AND a utility spell. That's part of why it's so strong. Secondly, aside from GWM/PAM, any build has hard time matching the at-will of a Giant Ape. +9/+9 for 45 average damage is extremely competitive with what e.g. level 7 Fighter can output after burning short rest resources (maneuver-novaing level 10 Battlemaster with PAM/GWM vs. AC17 is looking at about 52 damage per turn on average (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24686821&postcount=39) - without the maneuvers it drops to ~28 DPR vs. AC 17 while Giant Ape hits for ~33).

The problem with the Giant Ape's damage is that it is halved vs many enemies you will be facing at the level you get the spell. Resistance to non-magical weapons is a big thing. I don't see how we can make a fair comparison without factoring that in.


I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it wasn't a great 1st round buff. And that's also the key to one of your criticisms: that you need to kill any concentration spells to do it.
As an example our 7th level group ran into 2 frost giants and 2 vrocks tonight. A less experienced player with a Cleric asked about Polymorph right away, and I said no, non-concentration spell or do damage. By round 2 my Sorcerer Fighter had a handful of hp left after being hit by a 48 hp crit from one of the frost giants. Then Preso: Giant Ape, but not before I'd managed to AOE them with a quickened Fireball and hit with GFB. We mopped the floor with them.
So, yeah, wait until a party member has burned some of their resources and is heavily damaged. And don't burn another concentration spell if you figure you are going to need it.

I mostly agree, but consider that there is an opportunity cost to not using a good concentration spell at the start of your encounter vs waiting for an ally to be injured to use polymorph. It's very possible that using your 4th level spell slot (or even a third level slot) on another concentration spell at the start of combat (or heck any other spell) would have prevented the situation arising where you had a severely injured ally in the first place.


Polymorph is just such an efficient use of a spell known/prepared. The variability of beasts means it's easy to use polymorph to solve problems out of combat such as getting to inaccessible places or moving heavy objects.

This is a great point! It's one I didn't touch on, but it is easy to transform into a beast with a movement type that allows you to bypass a problem. I'm personally not sure that's the most efficient use of a 4th level slot when level 2-3 slots likely can solve the same problems, but it does highlight that the single spell packs alot of versatility - which is a big boon to casters that get few spells known/prepared.


I combat, yes you can kind of use it for healing or you can use it to take a caster out of spells and bring them back to the fight. You can pick combat abilities to match the enemies you are fighting and exploit their weaknesses.

Especially in combat there is a huge opportunity cost to waiting on your ally to be severely injured before casting your big spell.


And you can cast it on enemies. The disabling effects of the spell when you turn someone into a fish and have them helplessly flapping about on the floor should not be underestimated.

It's great not just because of its power but also because of its versatility.

Another great point on using it to control an enemy. It's really one of the first control spells that works on basically anything. However, it's a single target control spell in a multi-target control spell world (many control spells by this level target multiple enemies).

Perhaps it depends more on class:
Bard - Has much better control spells and has healing spells. It can help in exploration as bards get limited movement related spells.
Druid - Has very limited control spells. It's okay to fill in that gap.
Sorcerer - Has very few spells known. Polymorph fills alot of gaps (even if it's not the best spell at any of those roles).
Wizard - Has minimal Ability to extend allies survivability, but has control and exploration.

So I'm with you - the case to be made for it is in versatility. It's not really that powerful of a spell - it's more that it can help fill in the gaps on any casters spell list. So I'm with you that it's a good spell. I still would say it's overrated in power though.


I donÂ’t understand these arguments.

It is a healing spell. YouÂ’ve just provided 100+ hp to your ally who is near death. On top of that, youÂ’ve given him utility, high damage and movement.

It doesn't heal. Healing can bring a 0 hp character back into the fight. Polymorph can't. It's a defensive buff akin to temp hp. It doesn't typically allow high damage (resistance to non-magical weapons is a thing).


Saying it hurts concentration doesnÂ’t make sense. First of all, the characters who typically need this are frontline, and they tend to not be concentrating as much. Second of all, if you are casting it on them in the first place, it likely means theyÂ’re low and about to die. If they die, they donÂ’t mantain concentration.

There are 2 cases:
1. You are already concentrating on another spell. Using Polymorph has to be better than keeping concentration going on that spell and using any other non concentration spell you have. This will be a fairly rare circumstance.

2. You decided to not concentrate on another spell in case you needed to use polymorph. There is an opportunity cost involved in your choice to wait on opportune time to use polymorph and not to start the fight with a strong level 3-4 concentration spell.


If you are using this as a prebuff (which is strong) on someone, then that person should perhaps be concentrating on an appropriate spell that prevents him from being hit (flying/greater invis). Alternatively, you cast it on the person with the strong con saves/feats. Or they just wait to use a concentration spell until after the free temp hp goes away.

It's a strong defensive prebuff. It adds little to no additional damage. While not one of my previous points it does make it extremely hard for a giant ape turned caster to keep concentration going, even with a concentration boosting feat. (I suppose you could pick a creature with higher AC though).

[Eldariel]

The problem with the Giant Ape's damage is that it is halved vs many enemies you will be facing at the level you get the spell. Resistance to non-magical weapons is a big thing. I don't see how we can make a fair comparison without factoring that in.

Sure, that'll hurt but even then it can do decentish damage and more importantly, its control abilities are unaffected. You could also argue that as a primate it can use weapons so there's no reason you couldn't give it a frost giant's magical greatsword or something too, if that were the problem (though then you'd need Extra Attack to get extra attacks which you don't have).

[Frogreaver]

In the past I have (tongue in cheek) referred to Polymorph as a "healing" spell when used in a certain way. If I'm a caster and one of my allies has blown through most of their expendable combat resources and is pretty beat up, then casting Polymorph on them makes a great replacement for an actual healing spell. Obviously, it's really a buff and not a heal. But if my choices are to cast a 4th level Cure Wounds or Healing Word, or to Polymorph that ally into a giant ape or T-rex, then it's pretty clearly the best option for that combat in many circumstances.

But you are looking at it from the perspective that you don't already have a concentration spell going. That starting the fight another concentration spell may have kept you out of that predicament in the first place.

When opportunity cost and all else is considered, it's going to be rare that casting polymorph to give your injured allies more effective hp is going to be the better move. The stars basically have to align for it to be so.


Breaking my concentration on another spell might be required, and that might situationally be bad. But by the time my ally is in such bad shape as to justify this type of Polymorph, we're probably into at least the second or third round of combat. So my previous Hypnotic Pattern or conjured animals might well have been dispelled, or have lost most of its effect by then, or I may have taken a couple hits and lost concentration on it by then. Or, I may decide that the remaining effects of that previous spell are less important than saving my comrade from imminent death by giving him 150 temp HP and some pretty effective melee attacks (had a barbarian with Savage Attacker get some pretty effective mileage out of the giant ape).

Or alternatively, it's more likely such a spell is still in effect and wreaking havoc and meant your ally didn't get severely injured in the first place. If an ally gets severely injured then use an actual healing spell and maintain your concentration on the spell that's wreaking havoc on the enemies (unless you are a wizard, in which case polymorph is probably your only option).


Also, there's the possibility that my concentration on the Polymorph will get broken. That certainly a very real difference than a true healing spell - the HP given are temporary in every sense, and might not even last the round. Again, that's a tactical decision which I'd need to weigh before using Polymorph as a replacement for true healing. But where I think the risk is warranted, Polymorph has a much greater impact on the combat encounter than 20-odd HP of healing will from that 4th level slot.

But you are comparing polymorph to a heal spell instead of polymorph to an alternative concentration spell and using healing as an emergency option for severely injured allies. The difference there is night and day.


I'm not saying it's always the right choice. But it definitely is in the right circumstances. And those circumstances are reasonably common - enough so that I'll often forgo taking or preparing Cure Wounds in tier 2 play. (Plus, of course, all the other ways Polymorph can be used make it all-around great).

And I'm not saying that there are never right circumstances to use polymorph that way - I'm just saying it's not going to be the optimal tactic in most situations.

[MaxWilson]

Not exactly agreeing or disagreeing with OP, just sharing some notes as FYIs:



Then there are the other minor downsides to polymorph.
3. The most commonly cited creature to transform into (Giant Ape) has a very low AC of 12. Low AC makes it hard for casters to keep concentration on any spells that are concentrating on.


Note: a Mage Armored target remains Mage Armored while Polymorphed, giving it AC 15 as a Giant Ape.

I do agree that it's better as a prebuff than an emergency heal, so you don't have to unexpectedly drop concentration on something else to cast it.

I think you overrate the frequency and severity of weapon resistance. Losing half a Giant Ape damage against maybe a third to half your potential opponents isn't terrible unless the Polymorphed PC was already a primary damage dealer like a Sharpshooter. Conversely, if the party Mounted Combatant Divine Soul 7ish/Life Cleric 1 Polymorphs the Necromancer into a T Rex and hops on board, not only are you increasing the Necromancer's damage relative to cantrips, but you're also protecting his concentration while he gives you extra mobility (and restrains Medium enemies in his mouth to grant the party Sharpshooter advantage against them). Even without synergies though, a Giant Ape vs. something with weapon immunity like a Golem is still excellent at grappling/shoving/disarming, so it's not like they become tactically irrelevant--they've still got 150 free HP to burn tanking!

You're right that the mental saves are a downside, but side note: you can cease concentration at any time, even in the middle of resolving a Mind Flayer's Mind Blast. Do so if your ally needs their mind back to avoid being disabled. (Yet another reason to use it as a prebuff instead of an emergency heal, so that your ally is still at full HP when you cease concentration.)

Just for the record,
Max

[follacchioso]

I think most DMs and groups forget to roleplay the low intelligence of many beast forms. Most beasts have intelligence of 2 or 3, which is too low to fight effectively against enemies that use magic and martial weapons; and in some cases, even to distinguish an ally from a juicy meal.

Another thing that people often forget is that all the statistics are replaced by those of the new form. This includes save throw proficiencies, feats, and class abilities. So, you are very likely to have low CON saving throws, and fail concentration at the first hit.

Finally, casting polymorph costs an action, meaning you can't cast it on yourself and attack your enemy in the same turn. Giant Apes do a lot of damage, but you need two actions to set it up.

[JNAProductions]

I think most DMs and groups forget to roleplay the low intelligence of many beast forms. Most beasts have intelligence of 2 or 3, which is too low to fight effectively against enemies that use magic and martial weapons; and in some cases, even to distinguish an ally from a juicy meal.

Another thing that people often forget is that all the statistics are replaced by those of the new form. This includes save throw proficiencies, feats, and class abilities. So, you are very likely to have low CON saving throws, and fail concentration at the first hit.

Finally, casting polymorph costs an action, meaning you can't cast it on yourself and attack your enemy in the same turn. Giant Apes do a lot of damage, but you need two actions to set it up.

You're still you.

Any DM who made you attack your own allies from Polymorph alone is not a DM I'd want to play with.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I mostly agree, but consider that there is an opportunity cost to not using a good concentration spell at the start of your encounter vs waiting for an ally to be injured to use polymorph. It's very possible that using your 4th level spell slot (or even a third level slot) on another concentration spell at the start of combat (or heck any other spell) would have prevented the situation arising where you had a severely injured ally in the first place.
The player in question is a trickery cleric, and he ended up going Mirror Image in round 1. His other go-to would have been Spirit Guardians, but he only would have gotten 1 round out of it anyway due to my character getting chopped. Mirror Image lasted the rest of the fight.
I take your point regarding other concentration spells and those are the decisions we all need to make, and consider how fast we burn resources. The trickery Cleric gets a lot of mileage out of Pass Without Trace (which wasn't up in this encounter) so I can see a lot of situations in the next few levels where he will want to enter combat without messing that up and see how it goes, so the Polymorph and Spirit Guardians will be in his back pocket. Other characters with different lists might be different.

[Emongnome777]

I think you overrate the frequency and severity of weapon resistance. Losing half a Giant Ape damage against maybe a third to half your potential opponents isn't terrible unless the Polymorphed PC was already a primary damage dealer like a Sharpshooter.

Using D&D Beyond, I counted the number of creatures (Monster Manual only) from CRs 6 - 10 (just eyeballing CRs of creatures faced at level 7). There's 68 (when you ignore summoner variants) and only 9 have resistance to non-magic B/P/S and none are immune. That's not many, so it isn't unreasonable to ignore that when deciding how useful or powerful Polymorph is. Of course, it is campaign-dependent, so one with lots of fiends (which were most all of the creatures with resistance) will skew those numbers.

[Tanarii]

You're still you.

Any DM who made you attack your own allies from Polymorph alone is not a DM I'd want to play with.
Agreed on the latter. But you're you with animal intelligence. Just not the animal's nature.

Depending on how much a given table insists on roleplaying mental stats, especially Int, that might have a large to totally non-existent impact.

My view as a DM is if Intelligence stat is relevant to player decision making for the character (aka Roleplaying), there should be a check or mechanic based on it involved. If there's no check or mechanic, Intelligence stat is not relevant to Roleplaying. Ditto for all the other stats.

[JNAProductions]

Agreed on the latter. But you're you with animal intelligence. Just not the animal's nature.

Depending on how much a given table insists on roleplaying mental stats, especially Int, that might have a large to totally non-existent impact.

My view as a DM is if Intelligence stat is relevant to player decision making for the character (aka Roleplaying), there should be a check or mechanic based on it involved. If there's no check or mechanic, Intelligence stat is not relevant to Roleplaying. Ditto for all the other stats.

Yeah, for sure. You can't (generally) talk with your allies or execute complex plans. But you still know who's on your side.

[kazaryu]

I agree there. I'm pretty sure my opening post agrees there as well :smallsmile:
it may have agreed with the statement, but not the conclusion. my point is that its a really good use of the spell slot. a ton of extra HP, extra damage, and a pseudo taunt. thats good, and imo is likely the intent when people talk about it as a healing spell.




As you increase in level you tend to encounter more and more monsters with resistance to non-magical damage. They tend to go from very rare encounters at level 1 to fairly common at the levels we are talking about. ***Note any particular campaign could be different - but it's the exception and not the rule.

as you increase in level you tend to gain the ability to encounter more. thats the difference. there are still plenty of cr7 non magical resistant enemies. now, obviously it does fall off as you get to even higher levels, but thats more due to beast CR's stopping at fairly low levels. (lvl 8). meaning that once you get to a certain level you don't have a form thats competitive at all *except* for its HP. so yeah, at higher levels its not as good. but at lvl 7-8? even in an encounter where you do lose a bit of damage you still have a ton of other massive benefits.

[LudicSavant]

Because by level 7 you need ways to overcome non-magical damage resistance and the Giant Ape fails. It's damage is going to be halved which will put it below most martial party members that have a magical weapon. It's still a decent damage buff on another caster.

The problem with the Giant Ape's damage is that it is halved vs many enemies you will be facing at the level you get the spell. Resistance to non-magical weapons is a big thing. I don't see how we can make a fair comparison without factoring that in.

Resistance to nonmagical weapons is only a little more common than resistance/immunity to Fire damage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612317-Resistances-Immunities-and-Vulnerabilities-of-Monsters-in-MM-Volo-s-and-MToF). That doesn't stop people from taking Fireball, it just means they use a different spell if they find themselves, say, fighting devils.

Not to mention that a Giant Ape doesn't even need to overcome Resistance to be useful, it just needs to shove and grapple things and sit on them with 156 hit points at a point where people have like 50.


I think most DMs and groups forget to roleplay the low intelligence of many beast forms. Most beasts have intelligence of 2 or 3

Fun fact: A Giant Ape has the exact same Intelligence score as a Monster Manual orc.

[Guy Lombard-O]

But you are looking at it from the perspective that you don't already have a concentration spell going. That starting the fight another concentration spell may have kept you out of that predicament in the first place.

Maybe my post was unclear, but I actually meant for all the paragraphs to be read and understood together as a whole. I was most definitely addressing this sort of "replacement healing" use of the spell with full awareness of the issue of concentration on both other spells and on Polymorph.


When opportunity cost and all else is considered, it's going to be rare that casting polymorph to give your injured allies more effective hp is going to be the better move. The stars basically have to align for it to be so.

Well, I find that with bard or druid characters in tier 2 play, the stars align in about 1 out of 4 fights. So Polymorph is my favorite astrological sign.


Or alternatively, it's more likely such a spell is still in effect and wreaking havoc and meant your ally didn't get severely injured in the first place. If an ally gets severely injured then use an actual healing spell and maintain your concentration on the spell that's wreaking havoc on the enemies (unless you are a wizard, in which case polymorph is probably your only option).

Yeah, I think I mentioned that it's a case-by-case tactical decision of when/whether to employ Polymorph (or any other high powered spell).

In the first case you mention, the initial concentration spell is doing it's job and the combat is going our way, so it's unnecessary, inefficient and bad resource management to blow a 4th level slot on Polymorph. Since my ally is in great shape in this scenario, why would I use any healing spell, let alone Polymorph as a replacement heal?

In the second scenario, the options I'm probably weighing are Healing Word + keep concentrating on my opener concentration spell (Polymorph is basically never my opener), or Polymorph. Again, I'll say that a careful tactical evaluation of the greatest impact and the necessity for using another big spell slot is needed. But as I also mentioned, sometimes that initial Hypnotic Pattern really isn't doing much by round 3 (somebody tossed a fireball and woke most of the enemy, or some mobs used their actions to wake them), or my conjured animals are mostly dead or ineffective (maybe they cannot reach the enemy or are mired in a Plant Growth or something).

Again, it's a case by case evaluation.


But you are comparing polymorph to a heal spell instead of polymorph to an alternative concentration spell and using healing as an emergency option for severely injured allies. The difference there is night and day.

I'm comparing it to both the other healing options a tier 2 caster tends to have, and making a careful evaluation of the concentration issue involved. Spell slot wise, healing is almost always inferior in impact to Polymorph (at least for this combat), because anything other than a 1st level Healing Word is usually a waste (Healing Spirit pre-errata is the notable exception) in terms of keeping that ally as an effective combatant in a big fight. The benefit in HP is usually just too small to make a difference, unless that difference is 0 vs. conscious.


And I'm not saying that there are never right circumstances to use polymorph that way - I'm just saying it's not going to be the optimal tactic in most situations.

I don't know if you're speaking from actual experience when you say this, but all I can really add is that my experience proved to me that it was a very optimal choice and swung near-defeats into glorious victories. I'll freely admit, however, that the same can be said for a number of other spells (the aforementioned Hypnotic Pattern and Conjure Animals being two primary examples).

EDIT: Well, actually I can add one more comment - I see that others on here feel that Polymorph is better as a prebuff than as an emergency replacement heal. Which may well be more optimal, I cannot say. But the fact that I may well be using the spell in a sub-optimal manner, and yet still find it to be a top-tier pick among 4th level spells, suggests quite strongly that Polymorph is arguably even better than I thought it was. In other words, not overrated. And again, this replacement heal or prebuff is just one (or is that two?) way(s) to use it and have it be quite effective.

[Satori01]

As a matter of categorical accuracy, Polymorph does not heal.
Many trucks have two gas tanks. If gas tank #1 one on my truck is near empty, and I switch to the full gas tank #2, have I filled gas tank #1?

Of course not, I am merely getting mileage out of another reservoir.

Why does no-one ever write stories about the time a PC was Polymorphed
into a T-Rex, and then was subjected to an Animal Handling check to be mollified, or failed a saving throw against Animal Friendship spell?

It can happen. It does happen.

An injured animal will often lash out, even attack their owners, in the case of domesticated animals.

Sure you keep your alignment and personality, but how much of "You" is left when your Intelligence is now 2, your Cha is 9 and your consciousness is constrained in the body and mentality of a thunder lizard.

To alter an old Chris Rock bit:

"Tom the Turned into T-Rex didn't go crazy, Tom the Turned into T-Rex went T-Rex"

Giant Apes have a 7 Int, but at high tiers of play, a Giant Ape subject to a Feeblemind spell starts falling prey to Animal Friendship.
A villain such as Halaster Blackcloak, is going to prepare specific defenses against the party's commonly used tactics.

That said, a Crag Cat form, while not great in combat has it uses through this:

Nondetection. The cat can’t be targeted or detected by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.

Spell Turning. The cat has advantage on saving throws against any spell that targets only the cat (not an area). If the cat’s saving throw succeeds and the spell is of 7th level or lower, the spell has no effect on the cat and instead targets the caster.

Polymorph is great spell, but it can also literally bite the PC group in the ass.

[Contrast]

So the points are:

It isn't a healing spell

I mean...sure, yes you are correct it does not restore HP. The last fight that I used it an enemy had a particular enmity against our fighter and was chunking him for about 50 health a turn with 3 attacks. Fighter had just been Healing Worded for single digit HP. Next turn they were looking at being chunked for their HP and then 2 attacks at their downed body instakilling them. Instead I turned them into a giant ape with 160HP. Even with the lower AC it would have taken them several turns to burn through those HP so instead they broke from melee generating multiple opp attacks in an effort to get to me and break my concentration.

I glamour barded away and the giant ape to catch up with them at which point they got grappled and whaled on to death with no further inconvenience.

So it isn't a healing spell but sometimes its a much more effective healing spell than any similarly levelled spells.

It is concentration

Yep this is a weakness, the same weakness shared with all other concentration spells. I don't really have a lot else to say here. You choose when to cast it and when it will be effective based on what other spells you may currently be concentrating on and yes it is a factor when choosing your spells known/prepared to try and have concentration and non-concentration spells available.

Beast forms make the target vulnerable

Less vulnerable than being dead/uselessly locked out of the combat which their polymorphed form allows them to get into the combat.


If you want to add another weakenss of Polymorph a lot of the good beast forms are really big making the spell somewhat difficult to make use of if you're fighting in an enclosed space.



As a side note you don't appear to have addressed that Polymorph can also function as a poor mans Banishment against hostile targets and has a large swathe of utility effects.

Polymorph has strengths and weaknesses I agree and many spells are situationally more powerful but the benefit of Polymorph is that it is flexible and useable in different situations in a way that a similar offensive/defensive buff spell like Greater Invisibility are not. If you think Polymorph is weak I would be interested for you to outline which 4th level spells you think are more powerful.

[Eldariel]

Polymorph is great spell, but it can also literally bite the PC group in the ass.

Then again, so can literally any spell or attack or action so this isn't really saying much.

[Tanarii]

If you want to add another weakenss of Polymorph a lot of the good beast forms are really big making the spell somewhat difficult to make use of if you're fighting in an enclosed space.

Moon Druids often found this to be a major concern IMC.

There's often enough space for a Larger creature even in dungeons, but large creatures can really bottleneck up things.

True above ground too unless you're in wide open battle fields. Also means you have to deal with difficult terrain more often, more enemies surrounding you, etc.

Also limits the ability to use it once combat has started. If you have enemies on both sides of you, the transformation/spell will fail. (Edit: oops, what happens in this situation is DM-ruling.)

[Frogreaver]

Resistance to nonmagical weapons is only a little more common than resistance/immunity to Fire damage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612317-Resistances-Immunities-and-Vulnerabilities-of-Monsters-in-MM-Volo-s-and-MToF). That doesn't stop people from taking Fireball, it just means they use a different spell if they find themselves, say, fighting devils.

Not to mention that a Giant Ape doesn't even need to overcome Resistance to be useful, it just needs to shove and grapple things and sit on them with 156 hit points at a point where people have like 50.



Fun fact: A Giant Ape has the exact same Intelligence score as a Monster Manual orc.

I've looked at monster resistances after this post. They aren't nearly as prevalent as I had thought. That said there are a few creature types that tend to have most of resistances to non-magical attack damage. Demons, Devils, Elementals, Constructs. So in the right campaign it could be a big issue, but when I'm evaluating a spell in the general sense I try to avoid looking at extremely specific scenarios.

So yes, I was giving to much weight to damage resistance in terms of toning down polymorph's damage. That's a criticism I am happy to remove.

[MaxWilson]

As a matter of categorical accuracy, Polymorph does not heal.
Many trucks have two gas tanks. If gas tank #1 one on my truck is near empty, and I switch to the full gas tank #2, have I filled gas tank #1?

Of course not, I am merely getting mileage out of another reservoir.

Why does no-one ever write stories about the time a PC was Polymorphed
into a T-Rex, and then was subjected to an Animal Handling check to be mollified, or failed a saving throw against Animal Friendship spell?

It can happen. It does happen.

Becauae Animal Friendship doesn't work on Giant Apes, and even on a T Rex it only imposes charm, which is a weak condition.

If a DM runs Animal Handling as a powerful means of turning enemies into friends in the middle of combat, players can take advantage of that to generate meat shields.

[ff7hero]

Why does no-one ever write stories about the time a PC was Polymorphed
into a T-Rex, and then was subjected to an Animal Handling check to be mollified<snip>?


Probably for the same reason you don't hear stories about PCs getting Persuaded or Intimidated into doing things. Somethings just don't work on PCs.

[Satori01]

Then again, so can literally any spell or attack or action so this isn't really saying much.

I do not write this to offend, but your objection isn't saying very much, because it is not factually based.

The Spirit Guardians spell is not being turned against the PC group, even if the cleric is Dominated after casting it.

This is true for quite a few of the best cleric spells.

So to sum up: No, any spell cast by a PC, can't literally be turned upon the PC group.

[Eldariel]

I do not write this to offend, but your objection isn't saying very much, because it is not factually based.

The Spirit Guardians spell is not being turned against the PC group, even if the cleric is Dominated after casting it.

This is true for quite a few of the best cleric spells.

So to sum up: No, any spell cast by a PC, can't literally be turned upon the PC group.

Actually, Spirit Guardians requires you see your allies to exclude them so all that needs to be done is to cast Fog Cloud or similar in the area of battle and the Cleric can't cast it without hitting allies as much as your enemies. Had it happen actually.

[MaxWilson]

I do not write this to offend, but your objection isn't saying very much, because it is not factually based.

The Spirit Guardians spell is not being turned against the PC group, even if the cleric is Dominated after casting it.

This is true for quite a few of the best cleric spells.

So to sum up: No, any spell cast by a PC, can't literally be turned upon the PC group.

Suppose an extraordinary situation occurs, such that e.g. a Polymorphed PC has been subjected to Dominate Beast and turned against the group. (I don't accept the argument that Animal Handling or Animal Friendship or Speak With Animals has the power to do this.) What's to stop the Polymorph caster from just dropping concentration?

This is not fundamentally different from a PC getting caught in the party's own Web or cornered by the party's own Spike Growth, and in each case the party should either work around it (e.g. by breaking the concentration of the Dominate Beast caster) or drop the inconvenient spell, if it's hurting more than it's helping.

[Satori01]

(I don't accept the argument that Animal Handling or Animal Friendship or Speak With Animals has the power to do this.) What's to stop the Polymorph caster from just dropping concentration?
.

I was not as clear in expressing my points, in the prior post, (it was very late for me ).

I wasn't advocating that Animal Friendship would turn a Polymorphed PC against their party, but rather it turns the PC to being Friendly towards the Enemy creature, which will lead to the spell being dropped.

If you turned Tom into a T-Rex to eat something, and now all the T-Rex wants to do is cuddle with their new friend, combat has either just changed to a negotiation session, or the caster is dropping the spell.

1st level spell for the win!

In the case of Dominate Beast it gets even worse. In an Eberron game, I've seen a PC thrown from the top of the Skyway by a Giant Ape PC, whom had failed a Dominate Beast Saving Throw, and whom got to act before the caster could stop Concentration.

Is the Polymorph spell great, absolutely!
In Tier 4, the spell can be used to save a PC from being slain/ affected by Spells that rely on HP total like Power Word Kill or Divine Word.

Here, I do agree with Eladriel that many spells can be negated, or turned against their caster with a lower level spell.
This includes Polymorph....(it just doesn't really apply to all spells).

[Valmark]

I wasn't advocating that Animal Friendship would turn a Polymorphed PC against their party, but rather it turns the PC to being Friendly towards the Enemy creature, which will lead to the spell being dropped.

If you turned Tom into a T-Rex to eat something, and now all the T-Rex wants to do is cuddle with their new friend, combat has either just changed to a negotiation session, or the caster is dropping the spell.

1st level spell for the win!


To be fair, if the enemy just lost their turn to block one PC out of four -possibly not even that depending on turn order and save- that's actually a pretty good use of Polymorph, even if you had your 4th level spell countered by a 1st level spell. That's assuming the enemy has no ally that the Polymorphed PC can attack.

[Asisreo1]

To be fair, if the enemy just lost their turn to block one PC out of four -possibly not even that depending on turn order and save- that's actually a pretty good use of Polymorph, even if you had your 4th level spell countered by a 1st level spell. That's assuming the enemy has no ally that the Polymorphed PC can attack.
It's good because he basically reduced the whole party's ability to fight him by 25%, which is massive and can cause a spiral.

[Eldariel]

It's good because he basically reduced the whole party's ability to fight him by 25%, which is massive and can cause a spiral.

OTOH a failed mental save from a PC can have results far worse than 25% reduction in fighting power for 1 turn and a spell.

[Valmark]

It's good because he basically reduced the whole party's ability to fight him by 25%, which is massive and can cause a spiral.

And reduced its own either by 100%, or close to that (varying on the specific enemy).
It's actually a win for the party.

Also it did only if the Polymorphed player goes before the one holding Concentration, otherwise the spellcaster only needs to drop the spell for the PC to be free to do whatever.

[Asisreo1]

And reduced its own either by 100%, or close to that (varying on the specific enemy).
It's actually a win for the party.

Also it did only if the Polymorphed player goes before the one holding Concentration, otherwise the spellcaster only needs to drop the spell for the PC to be free to do whatever.
It's a case-by-case basis. Ignoring Legendary Actions, it's also better over longer battle. That one action might have prevented 3-4 actions. Effectively reducing the damage they take by somewhere around 50-100 depending on the level the fight is in. Plus, their action may have not been able to take anyone out in 1 turn in exchange. They could do 20 damage and get a character closer to incapacitation or they could immediately incapacitate a character to prevent damage then worry about that damage on their next turn.

It's sorta like having a character be at 1hp so that the enemy would have to use their action to take them out. It's a strategy but not exactly a good one

Also, I'm pretty sure transforming back into your humanoid version doesn't actually stop the effect of charm.

[Valmark]

It's a case-by-case basis. Ignoring Legendary Actions, it's also better over longer battle. That one action might have prevented 3-4 actions. Effectively reducing the damage they take by somewhere around 50-100 depending on the level the fight is in. Plus, their action may have not been able to take anyone out in 1 turn in exchange. They could do 20 damage and get a character closer to incapacitation or they could immediately incapacitate a character to prevent damage then worry about that damage on their next turn.

It's sorta like having a character be at 1hp so that the enemy would have to use their action to take them out. It's a strategy but not exactly a good one

Also, I'm pretty sure transforming back into your humanoid version doesn't actually stop the effect of charm.

Yeah, re-reading there isn't actually something saying what happens if you aren't anymore an eligible target for a spell RAW. I'd rule otherwise, but that'd be me.

Even if it doesn't end it's still only good when you're alone (in general), but it can be a good strategy this way.

[MaxWilson]

I was not as clear in expressing my points, in the prior post, (it was very late for me ).

I wasn't advocating that Animal Friendship would turn a Polymorphed PC against their party, but rather it turns the PC to being Friendly towards the Enemy creature, which will lead to the spell being dropped.

If you turned Tom into a T-Rex to eat something, and now all the T-Rex wants to do is cuddle with their new friend, combat has either just changed to a negotiation session, or the caster is dropping the spell.

1st level spell for the win!

In the case of Dominate Beast it gets even worse. In an Eberron game, I've seen a PC thrown from the top of the Skyway by a Giant Ape PC, whom had failed a Dominate Beast Saving Throw, and whom got to act before the caster could stop Concentration.


The T Rex can still attack other enemies.

There is no "before the caster can drop concentration." There is only "the caster didn't realize they can drop concentration at any time, without even a reaction cost." It was a player mistake that got the PC thrown off the Skyway, not a problem with the spell.


And reduced its own either by 100%, or close to that (varying on the specific enemy).
It's actually a win for the party.

Also it did only if the Polymorphed player goes before the one holding Concentration, otherwise the spellcaster only needs to drop the spell for the PC to be free to do whatever.

You can drop concentration on someone else's turn, so the turn order doesn't matter here. The only thing that matters is when the caster realizes that the Giant Beast is dominated/charmed, and decides to drop Polymorph instead of trying to dispel or break concentration on Dominate Beast/Animal Friendship/Charm Monster. (Note: dropping Polymorph will not end Charm Monster anyway, you have to dispel it, outwait it, or just ignore it and kill the caster without the Giant Ape's direct help.)


Also, I'm pretty sure transforming back into your humanoid version doesn't actually stop the effect of charm.

If so, great! If changing forms to an ineligible form does not nullify ongoing spells, then things like True Polymorphing the Tarrasque into an assistant pig-keeper and then Magic Jarring into the assistant pig keeper and dropping concentration on True Polymorph, and now you're the Tarrasque--such things are on the table. (Although, the 5E Tarrasque is lame and unworthy of such shenanigans.)

Or a Necromancer could take control of a Nightwalker and then True Polymorph it into something more useful like an Ancient White Dragon.

Or you could True Polymorph a Beholder or Mummy Lord into an Imp just long enough to Planar Bind it. (First wait an hour to make the True Polymorph stop needing your concentration, then put it in shackles or a Magic Circle and Planar Bind it, then whack the imp until it drops to zero HP and turns back into a Beholder or Mummy Lord.)

[Asisreo1]

If so, great! If changing forms to an ineligible form does not nullify ongoing spells, then things like True Polymorphing the Tarrasque into an assistant pig-keeper and then Magic Jarring into the assistant pig keeper and dropping concentration on True Polymorph, and now you're the Tarrasque--such things are on the table. (Although, the 5E Tarrasque is lame and unworthy of such shenanigans.)

Or a Necromancer could take control of a Nightwalker and then True Polymorph it into something more useful like an Ancient White Dragon.

Or you could True Polymorph a Beholder or Mummy Lord into an Imp just long enough to Planar Bind it. (First wait an hour to make the True Polymorph stop needing your concentration, then put it in shackles or a Magic Circle and Planar Bind it, then whack the imp until it drops to zero HP and turns back into a Beholder or Mummy Lord.)
That's always been in the cards in my games. I don't really see much of a problem with it considering the amount of work they'd need to do for it to be done, though the last one would be ruled such that the spell being permanent means hitting 0 hp means the imp is dead and doesn't convert.

[MaxWilson]

That's always been in the cards in my games. I don't really see much of a problem with it considering the amount of work they'd need to do for it to be done, though the last one would be ruled such that the spell being permanent means hitting 0 hp means the imp is dead and doesn't convert.

That's cool. (And True Polymorph not ending when you hit 0 HP is in some ways an advantage, although in this case you're right, it does mean you'd need to adopt a different strategy for Planar Binding the Vampire/Beholder, such as having two different spellcasters.)

In that case, yes, Polymorphing PCs becomes slightly more dangerous (because of the loss of mental stats and because Dominate Beast is slightly lower level than Dominate Person, although less readily-available on MM monsters). Still wouldn't stop me from casting the spell under appropriate circumstances, and I still wouldn't really care much about the threat of Animal Handling or Animal Friendship, but might make me more likely to prepare Dispel Magic whenever I have Polymorph, even if it squeezes out another spell I really want.

[Laserlight]

It may be overrated by optimizers, but when the new monk has gotten beat up and you say "I can help you be more monk-y, would you like that?", and he says "Uh, yes?" and you replace his figure with a Giant Ape and say "There you go--more monkey!" and show him the stat sheet, the look on his face is worth it.

[Satori01]

The T Rex can still attack other enemies.

There is no "before the caster can drop concentration." There is only "the caster didn't realize they can drop concentration at any time, without even a reaction cost." It was a player mistake that got the PC thrown off the Skyway, not a problem with the spell.


It wasn't a "mistake" the Caster of P-morph had been Charmed, and had been convinced to keep concentrating on the spell.

In response to the Charmed condition being "weak" or the fact that the Condition does stop the creature from attacking other creatures...that is a feature not a bug.

An opponent may not care if PC T-Rex eats It's minions, it just cares that the dinosaur doesn't eat their person. :)

The Charmed condition, is an excellent way to funnel an enemy to attack the tank, and leave the squishy alone.

As any one that has ever seen the movie Star Wars can attest to, even hard to exploit weakness, are still a danger, no matter how remote a possibility it is the weakness will be exploited.

[Frogreaver]

So I've reevaluated my stance primarily due to the fact that resistance to non-magical weapons isn't nearly as prevalent as I originally thought. This means the damage from a prebuffed/turn 1 polymorph is substantial enough for it to be very effective. That it has a very effective base use sells me on it's rating. That it can double as a good spell in other circumstances only helps solidify it's rating.

[Jophiel]

I think most DMs and groups forget to roleplay the low intelligence of many beast forms. Most beasts have intelligence of 2 or 3, which is too low to fight effectively against enemies that use magic and martial weapons; and in some cases, even to distinguish an ally from a juicy meal.
Dogs have an intelligence of 3 and manage to be intelligent social animals who can distinguish friends from food. Unless someone can show that the beast in question had a real world habit of trying to eat its fellow kin just for the hell of it, there's no reason to even start down the "but you're a dumb beast so obviously you try to eat the cleric" path. You retain your personality and you should know who your allies are.

[MaxWilson]

It wasn't a "mistake" the Caster of P-morph had been Charmed, and had been convinced to keep concentrating on the spell.

Then why did you say "whom got to act before the caster could stop Concentration" if the caster had no intention of dropping concentration?

If you tell us false facts about your game, we will draw false conclusions.

[Satori01]

Then why did you say "whom got to act before the caster could stop Concentration" if the caster had no intention of dropping concentration?

If you tell us false facts about your game, we will draw false conclusions.

Quite frankly, I didn't want to be that poster, that provides an over abundance of extraneous campaign details, when discussing a topic in a thread.

In no way was it a "false fact" to say the Polymorphed Giant Ape PC under the effects of a Dominate Beast spell, was able to take their turn before the P-morph caster could stop their Concentration on the P-morph spell.

Nor, I will add, was it untoward for someone to assume a mistake in applying the rules had been made, and that the fact that Concentration can be dropped at any time was missed.

It has been a long weekend here, and when your air conditioning dies, and the temperature has been a lovely 110 to 112 degrees with lows of 89 degrees at night, my communicative precision was thusly impacted. The Prohibition Style bottle of Old Forrester likely didn't help in this regard either. :)

[Valmark]

In the case of Dominate Beast it gets even worse. In an Eberron game, I've seen a PC thrown from the top of the Skyway by a Giant Ape PC, whom had failed a Dominate Beast Saving Throw, and whom got to act before the caster could stop Concentration.


It wasn't a "mistake" the Caster of P-morph had been Charmed, and had been convinced to keep concentrating on the spell.



In no way was it a "false fact" to say the Polymorphed Giant Ape PC under the effects of a Dominate Beast spell, was able to take their turn before the P-morph caster could stop their Concentration on the P-morph spell.


Wait, I understand not providing all details, but saying that the PC "got to act before the caster could stop Concentration" is way different from saying "the caster was phisically incapable of stopping Concentration".

It's like saying "The thief ran away while the police did nothing" when it's really "The thief ran away because the policeman's leg was shot".

And to be honest, if your caster had been Dominated like that the giant ape wasn't exactly the first of your problems (I say Dominated because no weaker charme I know of would make them do something like letting the giant monkey throw your companion down whatever high place you are on. Unless they wanted to do that themself, that is).

Though I still see your point, this would have worked completely if the Polymorphed character had been the caster themselves.

[Jazath]

Polymorph??? Overrated?? I sure do not think so!
Turning your enemies into toads and mice while transforming yourself into a giant alligator is far to much fun. Polymorph has great uses for yourself and allies