Paladin build - opinions requested

[LadyIslay]

I am super excited to have found a group of people still talking about 3.5e. I so want to be able to throw ideas around with other people that know what I'm talking about. Warning: I talk/type a lot.

I doubt I'm alone in thinking that the 3.5e paladin doesn't advance as well as other core classes; it's very front-heavy, and some of the features (remove disease, mount, even turning) are quite narrow in their usefulness. Since general multiclassing options are limited for paladins, I scoured all the (official) source material for PRCs. The Fist of Raziel from BoED looks promising.

The FoR PRC offers:
• Paladin HD/BAB/Saves
• +1 level of divine spellcasting at every level except the first
• Smite Evil enhancements
• No continued progression for Lay on Hands, Mount, Remove Disease, or Turn Undead

By taking one level of cleric prior to starting the PRC, the character would be able to gain caster levels as a Cleric and the HD/BAB/Saves of a Paladin... which seems like a way better deal than a straight Paladin build or a FoR build that advances in Paladin spellcasting. (NB: In this setting paladins may multiclass freely as monks and clerics and still gain levels as a paladin in the future.)

The downside to this build is that the character currently only has a Wisdom score of 14. To take advantage of being able to cast all the cleric spells as the character advances, I would have to put 3 ability score increases into Wisdom (assuming the game lasts that long). Additionally, the FoR reqires that a precious feat slot be sacrificed/wasted on a completely useless feat (Servant of the Heavens: Once per day, while performing an act of good, you may call upon your archon patron to gain a +1 luck bonus on any one roll or check.)

The DM isn't super-keen on this build, although he has already approved the PRC (perhaps before I told him of my intention to multiclass as a cleric). I get the impression that he really likes the paladin-exclusive spells, and he thinks having to put all the ability score increases into Wisdom instead of Strength (currently 15) is less than ideal (he's right). I think that a cleric able to cast level 7 spells is going to be better than a paladin that can cast level 4 spells, so why would I *not* prefer to advance in cleric casting?

Background info: The domains available to the character are are Good, Protection, Law, and War (Falchion being the deity's favoured weapon). Levels 1 & 2 are already set at paladin. The campaign that largely takes place underground with daily trips to the surface (classic dungeon crawl), so the paladin's mount is of very limited use, and I may swap it out for the Underdark Knight alternative class feature. I can request items from any official source book that isn't campaign-specific (so no FR/Eberron), but I might not get them. The paladin is the party's only primary fighting-type. For role play reasons, at this point, I don't want to stray from the paladin/cleric/holy warrier path.

Feats: I'm having trouble figuring out what feat to take at level 3 because I'm trying to maintain maximum flexibility for as long as possible: I don't want to waste a feat slot on the throw-away feat and then later change my mind. Level 3 feat ideas are Improved Bull Rush, Blind Fight, or Good Devotion (CCh). Level 6 is open for Servant of the Heavens. Level 9 will definitely be Awesome Smite (CCh). I would love to be able to take Divine Vigor (CWa) for my level 3 feat, but paladins can't turn until level 4, so unless I take a level of cleric at the third character level, I'd have to wait or skip this feat. (Although, its worth noting that CWa does say on page 106 that Divine feats are available to paladins of level 3 or higher, and that wasn't fixed in the errata. I don't think my DM will buy that, though.)

So, my questions:

What do you think of the overall concept of a Paladin/Cleric/Fist of Raziel?
How would you arrange the levels (how many levels of paladin and cleric)?
What feat would be most useful to take at level 3 and 6?
Should I just stick with playing a straight paladin and beg the DM to reconsider allowing the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Warrior?

[Quentinas]

Well a paladin cleric fist of raziel is more a melee cleric build rather than a paladin build for me , and using cleric is being stronger than a paladin, so maybe the DM was thinking about balance rather than anything. Is more complicated in each case so maybe for that he wasn't enthusiast about multiclassing in cleric. The paladin special abilities can be used in a good way, for example exchanging the mount with divine spirit(that can heal the double of your lay on hands) , using your turn undead to boost divine feat, or exchanging remove disease for remove curse, there are some way to do that. What I would do (if i know the DM doesn't like the idea of multiclassing in cleric) , even if is a weaker character, but it can be fun to use
Paladin 6 /Fist of raziel .
With this build i would take at level 3 Protection devotion, i'm a fan of that feat, so that you can boost your allies AC other than you. This feat can be reused with turn undead so you could use that .It would be in the domain of the character so that it could be an idea

If you are focused on using the cleric i would do
Paladin 2 , Cleric 1/paladin 2/Cleric 2/ Fist of raziel Or paladin 2/cleric 2/paladin 3 /Fist of raziel
But it would be more similar to a cleric of war rather than a paladin , and it would enter in the prestige class one level later
with the second build you could take divine vigor at level 3 and then the feats you need later

[Silly Name]

Can't you get a magic item to boost your Wisdom or Strength, rather than spending ASIs on improving both of them?

Cleric casting is obviously superior, but there a few nifty paladin spells I wouldn't forgo, especially if you can take the Battle Blessing feat. If you decide to trade your Paladin mount for the Charging Smite ACF, you would, for example, greatly benefit from Rhino's Rush, which doubles your charge damage. You also still have access to Divine Favor, Break Enchantment. Knight's move is great for positioning, Revenance and Sacred Haven both are useful for support and helping your allies.

And Holy Sword absolutely kicks ass.

I'd really ask your DM to allow Battle Blessing and forget about the cleric dip, taking Servant of the Heavens at level 3, picking up the Charging Smite ACF at level 4, Battle Blessing at level 6, and then go full Fist of Raziel from level 7 to 17 (if you get that high level).

Since FoR gives you Sanctify Martial Strike for free at level 4, you can then spend three levels on Sword of Righteousness. You could even pick it before entering or completing Fist of Raziel, as the three bonus exalted feats can be quite interesting. Resounding Blow (non-Exalted)+Quell the Profane makes for a pretty good combo, for example, especially if you get a good crit weapon.

Alternatively, if Battle Blessing doesn't get approved and you still want to do the cleric dip, you may want to take the Intuitive Attack feat (an Exalted feat too), which lets you add your Wisdom bonus to attack rolls. This way you can focus on Wisdom without missing out too much on your combat capabilities.

[LadyIslay]

Cleric casting is obviously superior, but there a few nifty paladin spells I wouldn't forgo, especially if you can take the Battle Blessing feat.

I'm pretty sure Battle Blessing is a firm "no". And I get it. Free, unlimited quickened spells? When I first read it, I was like "holy crap". Something like allowing an instant quicken in exchange for a turning attempt might be more acceptable, although the Divine Metamagic feat still requires you to take quicken spell and it costs 1 quicken attempt per each level you usually have to adjust a spell to use quicken. (This is too steep a cost, IMO, for a paladin, but less so for a primary caster.)

I'm kind of surprised that he approved Holy Mount, although that may be because he knows I'm likely to take an alternate class feature. Holy Sword is definitely THE Paladin spell, but is that one spell really worth sticking with Paladin?

[Silly Name]

I'm pretty sure Battle Blessing is a firm "no". And I get it. Free, unlimited quickened spells? When I first read it, I was like "holy crap". Something like allowing an instant quicken in exchange for a turning attempt might be more acceptable, although the Divine Metamagic feat still requires you to take quicken spell and it costs 1 quicken attempt per each level you usually have to adjust a spell to use quicken. (This is too steep a cost, IMO, for a paladin, but less so for a primary caster.)

If you want to go Divine Metamagic Quicken, I suggest looking into ways to expand your turning pool. You can pull some serious crazy stuff, but even then it may be better to simply use Cleric casting to fuel that.


I'm kind of surprised that he approved Holy Mount, although that may be because he knows I'm likely to take an alternate class feature.

Honestly, Holy Mount is pretty much needed if you start multiclassing into classes that don't increase your Paladin Mount. It's good but not overpowered.


Holy Sword is definitely THE Paladin spell, but is that one spell really worth sticking with Paladin?

Depends on the optimization level at your table. There are a few other nice spells (as I mentioned, Knight's Move is another that is pretty good), but the Cleric list is certainly better and there's a lot of overlap.

That 1-level cleric dip doesn't look bad since you are missing out on Battle Blessings. At that point you could look for a Paladin ACF that gives up on spellcasting for something else, too.

[Arkhios]

Wis 14 gets you to 4th level spells, which means you'll be at 9th FoR level before you even need to worry about it (as 15 is required for 5th level spells, which you'd get by then), assuming you took that one level in cleric prior to taking the PrC. Just look for a Periapt of Wisdom +2 or +4 and you'll be fine.

Paladin 6/cleric 1/Fist of Raziel 10 is effectively a 10th level cleric in regards to spellcasting, and won't get further than 5th level spells, maybe 7th at 20th character level, if you continue with cleric after FoR. So, periapt of Wisdom should help you enough.

Alternatively, you could use the Simple Cleric Class Variant from Unearthed Arcana, and trade Turn Undead for Smite Evil (as a Paladin) and Aura of Courage, then take only 2 levels in Paladin for that sweet Divine Grace, 6 levels in cleric prior to taking Fist of Raziel, and not worry the least about a mediocre Turn Undead (since you don't have it at all), but get a whole lot more spell access, even getting 9th level spells eventually (at 20th character level), although in that case you'd need a +6 Periapt of Wisdom (which, tbh, isn't a bad idea, considering will saves are often the Save or Die -type)

Although this alternative path is essentially more cleric than paladin, you'll get Smite Evil 8/day in total, divine grace and aura of courage, so you'll feel much more like a paladin than cleric, in terms of combat prowess. On top you get access to Divine Power and Righteous Might.

[SirNibbles]

If you're not advancing Lay on Hands, Turn Undead, and Remove Disease, you could also look at trading them out for Favored Enemy progression as a ranger (with limited choices) via the ACF from Unearthed Arcana, page 58, or trade just Turn Undead for immunity to Compulsions, Death Effects, or Petrification (while granting allies within your Aura of Courage a +4 bonus on saves against whatever you choose) with the Aura of Sanctity ACF from Dragon Magazine #349, page 93.

[One Step Two]

Just some general paladin advice:
The Serenity Feat from Dragon Compendium means you can use your Wisdom in place of Charisma purposes of divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead, this can help with letting your Charisma slide if you're using pointbuy, which can help make up for the MAD.

If your DM is open to it the Prestige Paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) Has a good bit of longevity, and a Fighter 1/Cleric4/Prestige Paladin 5/Fist of Raziel 10 can get acesss to has 8th level cleric spells. Prestige Paladin also adds paladin spells to the cleric spell list, getting access back to Holy Sword. Give your mount a Mouthpick, and cast Holy Sword, and you're both weilding +5 Holy weapons.