Templating question...

[SoD]

See, for example, the half-dragon.

''Half-dragon'' is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature.

OK, fine.

Abilities-+8 str, +2 con, +2 int, +2 cha.

Fine. No problems.

What if I want to create a half-dragon giant ant? A giant ant is tecnically a legal creature (being both alive and corporeal) for a half dragon, although I don't want to know why the dragon thought ''ooh, giant ants''. Urgh. Anyway, I know that giant ants have no int score, and that an int score of 0 is different no no int score. So would I give the half-dragon giant ant an int score of 2, or of -?

[its_all_ogre]

i would go int 2.
cr4 and breed loads to protect your dragons lair.
their breath weapons would be good to deplete protection from energy spells and they're so low CR no xp given! yay!:smallbiggrin:

[kamikasei]

What if I want to create a half-dragon giant ant? A giant ant is tecnically a legal creature (being both alive and corporeal) for a half dragon, although I don't want to know why the dragon thought ''ooh, giant ants''. Urgh. Anyway, I know that giant ants have no int score, and that an int score of 0 is different no no int score. So would I give the half-dragon giant ant an int score of 2, or of -?

I can't find RAW on it, but it seems pretty clear to me that it should remain as -. As you say, a score of zero is different from a nonability. Like adding a number to NaN, increasing an ability of - should have no effect.

I imagine you can find evidence of this elsewhere, if you dig around for templated creatures with nonabilities.

[cupkeyk]

Does a templated vermin's type change? Vermin familiar become magical beasts allowing them an intelligence score.

Can I piggy back my template question here?

Are there templates taht inrease a creatures hitdice maximum? For instance a pegasus maxes out 8, are there templates that could grant it more HD?

[Keld Denar]

In the world of Greyhawk, there is a particular Red Dragon named Morgenstaller who resides in a fiery mountain in the Bandit Kingdoms. This bugger has no qualms about mating with ANYTHING. One of my friend encountered a 1/2 red dragon SHEEP. BAAAAAAH *flame*. I myself faught a 1/2 red dragon Umber Hulk. Not a comfortable situation to be in.

As to your question...

The ant would probably become a Magical Beast/Dragon (Augmented Vermin) and thus be able to gain an INT score. Much in the way a zombie ogre becomes Undead (Augmented Giant).

Hope this helps!

[Fax Celestis]

Do note that the creature will stop being Mindless if it gains an Intelligence score.

[MCerberus]

In the world of Greyhawk, there is a particular Red Dragon named Morgenstaller who resides in a fiery mountain in the Bandit Kingdoms. This bugger has no qualms about mating with ANYTHING. One of my friend encountered a 1/2 red dragon SHEEP. BAAAAAAH *flame*. I myself faught a 1/2 red dragon Umber Hulk. Not a comfortable situation to be in.

As to your question...

The ant would probably become a Magical Beast/Dragon (Augmented Vermin) and thus be able to gain an INT score. Much in the way a zombie ogre becomes Undead (Augmented Giant).

Hope this helps!

Yah that guy's crazy. Half dragon half Halfling might be good. He's also... interesting... to use as a quest giver to evil parties.

[kamikasei]

Do note that the creature will stop being Mindless if it gains an Intelligence score.

Hmmm! That's a good point, or rather, its reverse is. Its type changes to Dragon, so it no longer has the Vermin trait of Mindless, so it could gain an Intelligence score... but what base intelligence score would it get that you add the +2 to? Zero? Ten?

[SoD]

Whoa...half dragon sheep...so tempted to make a comment there, but I won't. Anyway, just saying that is a bit of a waste of a post, so I'll go on. What I would've done would be to make the score 2 (0+2), yet I am fully aware that this isn't the only option. Still, I doubt that any sort of giant ant (awakened an exception) would have int of 12. So...still, imagine the horror of an orc fighter/barbarian weilding a lance flying up on a half red dragon giant wasp, eh?

[kamikasei]

Whoa...half dragon sheep...so tempted to make a comment there, but I won't. Anyway, just saying that is a bit of a waste of a post, so I'll go on. What I would've done would be to make the score 2 (0+2), yet I am fully aware that this isn't the only option. Still, I doubt that any sort of giant ant (awakened an exception) would have int of 12. So...still, imagine the horror of an orc fighter/barbarian weilding a lance flying up on a half red dragon giant wasp, eh?

That seems fair in this case, but it's only because Half-Dragon changes the type that I say so. If a template preserves type, and the original type had a nonability (which generally, if I'm not mistaken, is an actual type feature), template adjustments to that ability should be ignored.

But yes... fire-breathing giant wasps... pretty freaky.

[KIDS]

Celestial and Fiendish templates explicitly state that intelligence becomes 3 even if it was previously nonexistant. I'd say since this one doesn't, while the said combination is possible, it would still result in an INT of -, not 2.

[SoD]

True, but, as other people have already mentioned, and as I didn't originally realise, the non ability is from the vermin trait (mindless, no inteligence score, immunity to mind numbing effects [charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects])...and making it half dragon would make it dragon, not vermin...which gets rid of the mindless...

[Jasdoif]

True, but, as other people have already mentioned, and as I didn't originally realise, the non ability is from the vermin trait (mindless, no inteligence score, immunity to mind numbing effects [charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects])...and making it half dragon would make it dragon, not vermin...which gets rid of the mindless...Not quite....

Because of the vermin trait, it's mindless. Because it's mindless, it has no Int score. And because it has no Int score, it's mindless.

Changing its type doesn't give it an Int score, so it's still mindless even though it doesn't have vermin type traits anymore.


It may have been the vermin trait responsible for its mindlessness in the first place, but once it's there you have to give it an Int score to remove it. And as mentioned way above, you can't apply a numeric bonus to a non-numeric quality.

[SoD]

However, it could be interpreted as having no ability for inteligence, rather than a non-numeric quality. So if you look at it, instead of from numbers, from the point of view of 'it has no inteligence'...what's the difference?

As you mentioned (and I'm not going to dispute this) while you can't apply a numeric bonus to a non-numeric quality, you can add something to nothing.

Please note, I am not trying to say 'I'm right, you're wrong'. I created this thread because I don't know the answer. I'm merely saying 'maybe it's like this'.

[Jasdoif]

However, it could be interpreted as having no ability for inteligence, rather than a non-numeric quality. So if you look at it, instead of from numbers, from the point of view of 'it has no inteligence'...what's the difference?It's exactly the same thing, that's the point.

A mindless creature has no Intelligence, and thus no number for Intelligence. Therefore, you can't add a +2 increase to Intelligence, because there is no number for you to add it to.


Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether.

[SoD]

However, the fact that it is mindless is a vermin trait. If became half dragon at some point, then I would assume that it would still be -, but it's been of the dragon type, not the vermin type, its whole life, so couldn't it be 0 or higher?

[Jasdoif]

However, the fact that it is mindless is a vermin trait. If became half dragon at some point, then I would assume that it would still be -, but it's been of the dragon type, not the vermin type, its whole life, so couldn't it be 0 or higher?Not through the addition of a template like half-dragon to a mindless vermin, no. Something like Celestial or Fiendish, which states an explicit minimum Intelligence score the creature possesses, would do it. (You could, of course, have a celestial half-dragon vermin, which would have an Int of 5 if you apply the celestial template first.)


Even vermin can have an Intelligence score, they just need a listed Int score (and ideally a stated exception to the usual vermin mindless trait, to avoid confusion).

[SoD]

But my argument point is here-giant ants (for example) are mindless their entire life, because that's part of the vermin way (unless otherwise stated). However, a half-dragon template would change the type to dragon. As the half-dragon template is added before the birth of the giant ant, it is never a vermin. Therefore it never has the vermin traits. So it is never mindless.

[Jasdoif]

But my argument point is here-giant ants (for example) are mindless their entire life, because that's part of the vermin way (unless otherwise stated). However, a half-dragon template would change the type to dragon. As the half-dragon template is added before the birth of the giant ant, it is never a vermin. Therefore it never has the vermin traits. So it is never mindless.You appear to be stuck on the trait. That's not what matters in this case.

You're applying a template to a base creature. The base creature has no Intelligence score. The template doesn't specify that it gains an Intelligence score if it doesn't have one. Therefore the templated creature has no Intelligence score.


You can just make up a number for the Intelligence score if you want, but that's not how templates normally work.

[MCerberus]

The fiendish/celestial templates say that they can be applied to vermin AND it changes their alignment to evil/good. In order to have an alignment you need to have proto-human INT (3 min). So these templates give them an INT.

Half-dragon does not stipulate alignment change but I there would be precedent for them becoming intelligent. Of course there is still the matter of


A half-dragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

[SoD]

However, I would still argue that mindless is a vermin trait, not a giant ant trait. However, this is not a giant ant, but a half-dragon giant ant, which would make it of the dragon type, not the vermin type, therefore it isn't mindless.


You appear to be stuck on the trait. That's not what matters in this case.

But it's mindless because of the trait...

[Jasdoif]

However, I would still argue that mindless is a vermin trait, not a giant ant trait. However, this is not a giant ant, but a half-dragon giant ant, which would make it of the dragon type, not the vermin type, therefore it isn't mindless. Could you show me where it says creatures of the Dragon type cannot be mindless? If I've been missing something all along, I'd like to know.



But it's mindless because of the trait...It's mindless because of the trait, and because it doesn't have an Intelligence score. Removing the trait doesn't alter the ability score, and so it remains mindless on that basis.

[Fax Celestis]

However, the fact that it is mindless is a vermin trait. If became half dragon at some point, then I would assume that it would still be -, but it's been of the dragon type, not the vermin type, its whole life, so couldn't it be 0 or higher?

Perhaps you missed the definition of the Mindless trait:


Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Therefore, a creature with an intelligence score cannot be mindless, regardless of its heritage.

[Rad]

Several instances in the FAQ (most notably those regarding the warforged) imply that losing a type does not mean losing the abilities that that type granted unless they are engated by the new type.
Having no Int means that any bonus or penalty to Int is going to be nullified, and I do not see why that the +2 from the half dragon template should be an exception; so the resulting creature has no Int score and the mindless subtype.

[Fax Celestis]

Several instances in the FAQ (most notably those regarding the warforged) imply that losing a type does not mean losing the abilities that that type granted unless they are engated by the new type.
Having no Int means that any bonus or penalty to Int is going to be nullified, and I do not see why that the +2 from the half dragon template should be an exception; so the resulting creature has no Int score and the mindless subtype.

I would at this point indicate you to the Sentry Ooze template in Dungeonscape. It gives stat mods of Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +10, Cha +10. It also specifically states that the base ooze is no longer mindless and has an Int score of 2 because of the bonus. There are no oozes I am aware of that have an Intelligence score, and yet this template specifically provides a flat bonus to the ooze's intelligence, with the resultant effect that the ooze has a Int of 2.

[Jasdoif]

I would at this point indicate you to the Sentry Ooze template in Dungeonscape. It gives stat mods of Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +10, Cha +10. It also specifically states that the base ooze is no longer mindless and has an Int score of 2 because of the bonus. There are no oozes I am aware of that have an Intelligence score, and yet this template specifically provides a flat bonus to the ooze's intelligence, with the resultant effect that the ooze has a Int of 2.That sounds like a specific feature of the particular template. It'd make a good baseline for house rules or homebrewed templates, though; however I'd be leery about an ability "bonus" resulting in a lowered ability modifier.

[Fax Celestis]

That sounds like a specific feature of the particular template. It'd make a good baseline for house rules or homebrewed templates, though; however I'd be leery about an ability "bonus" resulting in a lowered ability modifier.
Let me quote the relevant pieces of information.

...inherited template that can be applied to any living corporeal ooze without an Intelligence score.

--No longer mindless, a sentry ooze is susceptible to mind-affecting spells and effects. However, it has a +4 racial bonus against such spells and effects.

Abilties: ...Int +2...

...gains skill points equal to (2+Int modifier)x(HD +3) to account for its new Intelligence score of 2.
The implication appears to be that giving a permanent Intelligence bonus to a mindless creature makes it no longer mindless and provides it an Intelligence score.

[Jasdoif]

Let me quote the relevant pieces of information.

The implication appears to be that giving a permanent Intelligence bonus to a mindless creature makes it no longer mindless and provides it an Intelligence score.Interesting....

But seeing as the template states it can only be applied to Oozes without an Intelligence score, specifically calls out that it removes the mindless quality and specifically provides an Intelligence score to use...I don't see this being applicable in a general sense.

[Fax Celestis]

But seeing as the template states it can only be applied to Oozes without an Intelligence score, specifically calls out that it removes the mindless quality and specifically provides an Intelligence score to use...I don't see this being applicable in a general sense.

The way it removes the Mindless trait appears to me like they're treating it like it's a side effect of gaining an Intelligence score. "As it is no longer mindless..." seems like they're merely clarifying what happens due to the Int score.

[Jasdoif]

The way it removes the Mindless trait appears to me like they're treating it like it's a side effect of gaining an Intelligence score. "As it is no longer mindless..." seems like they're merely clarifying what happens due to the Int score.I guess that part of it escaped your excerpt.


I don't have the book in question, so I can't see the whole context; and the way you presented that excerpt...

--No longer mindless, a sentry ooze is susceptible to mind-affecting spells and effects. However, it has a +4 racial bonus against such spells and effects....made it look like part of a bullet-pointed list of special qualities/abilities gained by the template.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't have the book in question, so I can't see the whole context; and the way you presented that excerpt made it look like part of a bullet-pointed list of special qualities/abilities gained by the template.

It is a bullet list, but that's only one of two abilities granted by the template.

Literally, this is what the template does:
Special Quality: Spell Resist
Special Quality: Removal of Mindless as per quoted text
Ability increases: Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +10, Cha +10
Skills and feats: no longer Mindless, so it now has these.
CR: +2
That's it. There's no text beyond exactly what I quoted above that explicitly removes or alters the Mindless trait--and as I said, the phraseology of the ability makes it sound (to me) like the removal of the Mindless trait is a side-effect of gaining an Intelligence score.

[Jasdoif]

OK...well, while I'm not convinced, I can see how you came to that conclusion and there's little point in me arguing over the content I can't see in a book I don't have. And since this does provide a base number to work with (0), I guess there's an accepted/demonstrated way to derive an ability score for a nonability when you need to add a bonus to it.

[Fax Celestis]

I can certainly see where you're coming from too. In all kinds of mathematics I know of, NaN+2 is still NaN. From the Sentry Ooze template, though, NaN seems to mean "it's 0, but we can't give it a 0 score because it'll be dead so it's NaN instead...at least, until you add to it."

[Rad]

I see your point and take the hit...
I completely support the idea that anything that gains an Int score is not mindless anymore; however...

take an Ooze
cast Fox's Cunning: now it has Int 4
cast Ray of Stupidity: now it has Int 0 and is defeated.
does not sound right. In most respects no score is mechanically closer to a score of 10 rather than 0, and this is just one instance when breaking this rule hurts much.

I see the analogy could hold; but it has very destructive implications.

[Jasdoif]

I see your point and take the hit...
I completely support the idea that anything that gains an Int score is not mindless anymore; however...

take an Ooze
cast Fox's Cunning: now it has Int 4
cast Ray of Stupidity: now it has Int 0 and is defeated.
does not sound right. In most respects no score is mechanically closer to a score of 10 rather than 0, and this is just one instance when breaking this rule hurts much.

I see the analogy could hold; but it has very destructive implications.This could only apply to gaining permanent bonuses. As noted in the FAQ, a temporary bonus has no effect on a nonability:


Can an undead creature enter a rage? If so what benefit (if any) does it gain from the Constitution bonus?

An undead creature can indeed enter a rage. Since undead creatures don’t have a Con score, the bonus to Constitution provides no benefit (and thus the undead doesn’t gain any extra hit points when raging).

You didn’t ask about duration, but it’s worth noting that since the modifier for a nonability is +0 (MM 312), an undead creature’s rage would last 3 rounds.

[Fax Celestis]

I see your point and take the hit...
I completely support the idea that anything that gains an Int score is not mindless anymore; however...

take an Ooze
cast Fox's Cunning: now it has Int 4
cast Ray of Stupidity: now it has Int 0 and is defeated.
does not sound right. In most respects no score is mechanically closer to a score of 10 rather than 0, and this is just one instance when breaking this rule hurts much.

I see the analogy could hold; but it has very destructive implications.

Fox's cunning does not give a target an Intelligence score: it provides an enhancement bonus to an existing score. The Sentry Ooze template isn't giving a bonus to a score--well, it is, but the bonus is a permanent racial feature, not a temporary, typed bonus. In this instance, fox's cunning cast on a regular ooze would not affect it: it would remain mindless and have a -- Int score. Fox's cunning cast upon a Sentry Ooze would have an Int score of 6.

Further, -- scores are considered to have a -5 modifier, making them "practically 0". An example is the shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm): despite having a -- for it's Dexterity, it receives a -5 penalty to it's Armor Class, as if it literally had a Dexterity score of 0.

[Jasdoif]

Further, -- scores are considered to have a -5 modifier, making them "practically 0". An example is the shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm): despite having a -- for it's Dexterity, it receives a -5 penalty to it's Armor Class, as if it literally had a Dexterity score of 0.The usual case is that a nonability has a +0 modifier.
Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0.I'm not even sure why the shrieker gets a -5 Dex to AC, unless it's something like a creature without a Dexterity score can't move, and is thus considered paralyzed/helpless and thus has an effective Dex score of 0.

[Chronos]

Further, -- scores are considered to have a -5 modifier, making them "practically 0".The rules are inconsistent on this. For instance, a ghoul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm) has a Fort save of +0 (2 HD and a bad save, with no ability bonus), rather than the -5 you would expect if it had a Con of 0. So in that regard, a -- is similar to a 10.

It looks to me like the Sentry Ooze template does two things: First, it removes the "mindless" attribute, which changes the Int score from -- to 0, and then it adds +2 to that zero. The half-dragon template, however, does not include that first step, so it's not that great an analogy.

[Fax Celestis]

It looks to me like the Sentry Ooze template does two things: First, it removes the "mindless" attribute, which changes the Int score from -- to 0, and then it adds +2 to that zero. The half-dragon template, however, does not include that first step, so it's not that great an analogy.

I think the analogy I was aiming for was that the removal of the Mindless attribute was merely a clarification from the Ooze's acquisition of an Intelligence score. If that were the case, it would mean that the Half-Dragon template would indeed make Mindless creatures not Mindless, but would not do it very clearly, or with the +4 racial bonus that Sentry Oozes enjoy.

[Rad]

I know there are differences, but why should they matter? Personally the FAQ entry that has been quoted supports the fact that even untyped bonuses are NOT added to nonexistent scores. My point was that adding bonuses to nonexistent scores was a very bad idea, not that I found a very clever way to defeat Oozes.

Whether permanent untyped bonuses should be different from temporary untyped bonuses or not is a very open issue, complicated by the fact that INt is the only stat where permanent and temporary bonuses are actually different rules-wise. However I don't think we can conclude that RAW say either thing about our fire-spitting ant :smallsmile:
The template quoted by Fax is written as if this a rule existed, which is usually a giveaway that one should find it if they look carefully, but there is no rule just like that. Does it create a rule by setting a precedent? I wouldn't say so; a precedent can be a good guideline for a house rule but not set a rule. I think we have to say that RAW has no clear answer here.
(Personally, I'd call this an editing error; but calling things editing errors is not good in RAW discussions)

[Fax Celestis]

The template quoted by Fax is written as if this a rule existed, which is usually a giveaway that one should find it if they look carefully, but there is no rule just like that. Does it create a rule by setting a precedent? I wouldn't say so; a precedent can be a good guideline for a house rule but not set a rule. I think we have to say that RAW has no clear answer here.
(Personally, I'd call this an editing error; but calling things editing errors is not good in RAW discussions)

I hate leaving things that way, but I find I am forced to make the same conclusion.

[Leliel]

Wow, infinite loop. How unexhilarating.

For me, plot trumps RAW, and since half-dragon giant ants (Who, thankfully, could have been created in a test tube; See Vol, Erandis) with an intelligence score sound far more plot-worthy then the mindless kind, so I rule that they gain one.

And yes, I agree with the "Sentry Ooze" position that they would gain one by RAW.

[Duke of URL]

I think the practical upshot of the thread is that it can clearly be ruled either way since it really isn't completely specified in the rules. And, since you're the DM and have the power of interpretation on your side to begin with...