Hobgoblin Iron Wizard: should I go Abjurer or War Wizard?

[Merudo]

I'm building an Iron Wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45) (essentially a Hobgoblin Wizard who takes the Moderately Armored feat) and I am debating which Arcane Tradition to pick.

Ignoring the weak abilities, we have:

War Wizard
Level 02: +INT to initiative, and a reaction for +2AC or +4 to any save
Level 10: +2 AC & +2 to all saves when concentrating (so almost always)

Abjurer
Level 02: +2 HP per level
Level 10: proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic & Counterspell
Level 14: advantage on saving throws against spells, resistance to spell damage

The Abjurer's bonus to HP is nice, if a bit unexciting. Proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic & Counterspell is great but situational. The level 14 stuff looks amazing but I'm unlikely to reach level 14 in our campaign.

War Wizard's bonus to initiative is something I'll be using every single fight, so that's a huge plus. Not only will I get more turns during battles, but I will also be able to cast my debuffs before combatants enter melee. The +4 to any save as a reaction may occasionally save my concentration or protect me against a debuff, but it seriously competes with Shield, Absorb Element and Counterspell. The +2AC & saving throws at level 10 will improve my survivability significantly, given that defense has increasing marginal returns.

[Maan]

I think the point of choosing Abjurer for that build is primarily because it gives you pretty much the same HP as a Fighter (without losing on Wizard progression), which is useful to complete your defenses.
You already have good AC and saves because of racial goodies, so War Wizard could be a bit redundant in that; on the other hand, having a big bag of Temporary HP will help you for those situations where you take damage somehow bypassing your other defenses.

Overall, I think with Abjurer the build is more well-rounded. With War Wizard you have other good abilities, but you still have the low HP of a caster and all the problems that entails.

[cutlery]

For a pure wizard, I'd probably go abjurer.

It depends on what level range you think you'll play, but the war wizard's 6th level feature is pretty lackluster. The abjurer is far more resilient, which tends to be a weakness of wizards.

The "great but situational" bonus to counterspells means outright preventing save or sucks from hitting teammates, and you can use lower level slots to do it. I'd rather counter the forcecage on the party melee frontline than burn a disintegrate a round later.

[HappyDaze]

I've done it with Abjuration myself, and it was because it fit the concept better (companion of an inquisitor out hunting down evil creatures and rogue magicians). I suppose the other option could work depending on what you want to play.

[stoutstien]

It should be noted that arcane deflection works for ONE save or attack. It still a good feature but in game play it might feel lacking.

[Aaron Underhand]

What are you seeking to do? Tank sword and board, deal single target damage with greatsword and flaming sphere, control with Warcaster and booming blade, or just be a tougher back line caster?

1st I'd use abdurer, second war wizard, third enchanter, and fourth diviner...

For the record I've played the Diviner to 8th, and I'm currently running a Githyanki war wizard at 5th...

[MaxWilson]

I'm building an Iron Wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45) (essentially a Hobgoblin Wizard who takes the Moderately Armored feat) and I am debating which Arcane Tradition to pick.

Ignoring the weak abilities, we have:

War Wizard
Level 02: +INT to initiative, and a reaction for +2AC or +4 to any save
Level 10: +2 AC & +2 to all saves when concentrating (so almost always)

Abjurer
Level 02: +2 HP per level
Level 10: proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic & Counterspell
Level 14: advantage on saving throws against spells, resistance to spell damage

The Abjurer's bonus to HP is nice, if a bit unexciting. Proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic & Counterspell is great but situational. The level 14 stuff looks amazing but I'm unlikely to reach level 14 in our campaign.

War Wizard's bonus to initiative is something I'll be using every single fight, so that's a huge plus. Not only will I get more turns during battles, but I will also be able to cast my debuffs before combatants enter melee. The +4 to any save as a reaction may occasionally save my concentration or protect me against a debuff, but it seriously competes with Shield, Absorb Element and Counterspell. The +2AC & saving throws at level 10 will improve my survivability significantly, given that defense has increasing marginal returns.

If you're expecting to end before level 14, then I'd definitely pick War Wizard over Abjuror. Getting +prof to Counterspell/Dispel Magic is all right, but you're more likely to be limited by spell slots and reactions anyway than by ability checks: the +prof will turn failure into victory in maybe 1 out of 4 Counterspells against high-level spells, which means that when failure is not an option, you have to upcast anyway instead of relying on lucky dice rolls. Frankly you're a hobgoblin, and your Saving Face 1/short rest bonus is probably better than the Abjuror bonus already in the rare cases where it even matters. Arcane Ward is... okay, but there are lots of ways to get HP, and getting +20ish HP shouldn't be a big deal unless your party doesn't have a real healer.

Given the choice between the two I'd pick War Wizard, but really I'd rather go Enchanter, Illusionist, or Necromancer, even on an Iron Wizard, because I really enjoy Hypnotic Gaze+Split Spell, Malleable Illusion, and/or Grim Harvest/Undead Thralls. But, it is true that Hobgoblin War Wizards excel at saving throws, so that's a definite niche.

[Zhorn]

Currently playing a Hobgoblin War Wizard (18 CON) and am feeling pretty confident with the HP I have at Lv7.
This Iron Wizard idea has been tempting me for a while. Enough so that I'm torn between taking War Caster next level as planned, or investing in Moderately Armored for the nice AC boost into the high teens.

[LudicSavant]

Another cool thing about the Abjurer I should mention (just because I haven't seen anyone else bring it up yet) is that it's tougher to kill your otherwise squishy adds. Your familiar can actually survive a hit thanks to your Ward reaction, so things like Dragon's Breath become more reliable. It also makes it even easier to get the full bonus from Saving Face.

Even more importantly, later on your Simulacrum (which normally has half-hit points, and those hit points are costly to restore) has a regenerating, projectable ward of their own. To get an idea of the difference this makes in durability, a 14 Con Wizard at L13 has 80 hit points, and their Simulacrum has just 40. Your Simulacrum has 46 base hit points, plus a 31 hit point Ward, plus you can project your own ward in order to shield them... for a total of 108 hit points before your Simulacrum goes down. And that's before we count them generating temp HP with spell slots, or regenerating wards (way easier than regenerating Simulacrum hit points), and so forth.

Oh, and of course, that 62 hit points worth of Ward between the two of you can be projected to any of your allies.

By level 20, it's 90 hit points of ward between the two of you, and you can regenerate it at-will using Spell Mastery: Shield. And you can just project that onto anyone in the party as needed. In the mid-high level Abjurer's world, everyone is iron.

...In fact, I'm gonna edit that note into the build post itself, right now (as always with optimized Wizard builds, there's more tricks than I could ever list in the space of a single post).

Then again, the stuff I just said is most relevant to Tier 3+ and you said you might not get there.
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As for the War Wizard, they get the benefit of being able to say "I will never fail a saving throw." I mean we're talking +9-11 to any save, after seeing the roll. And later Lucky on top of that. And of course defenses like Counterspell to go with it.

That said, your reaction abilities are offset a bit by the fact that the Wizard already has amazing reactions (Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, etc) and that they turn off your casting the turn after you use it.

I'm not that worried about losing a few hit points, because d6 + 18 Con is the same as d10 + 14 Con. And HD size gaps aren't even a big deal -- +1-2 hp per level is just the value of a spell slot or two spent on temp HP or damage mitigation or the like.

The War Wizard, however, will not have the luxury of being able to project their ward onto their less-steely allies, nor the advantage of making their Simulacrum just shrug off 100 damage bursts and get most of their hit points back. Nor will you have those superior counterspells.

Instead, your ability to help protect your allies comes from a higher Initiative. And combined with Power Surge, you can use it to go first and Fireball away all the little mooks or the like, which can help protect your allies.

But the main attraction is probably going to be the fact that you just don't fail saves.

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Finally....


You can pick any Wizard subclass with a Moderately Armored Hobgoblin, really. Abjurer just makes the comparison to the Fighter's durability that much more straightforward. :smallwink: Anyways, want to make, say, a War Wizard who gets +9 or more to all saves at level 2? You can do that.

The basic "Moderately Armored Hobgoblin" concept can be applied effectively to any Wizard. As I mentioned before, the fact that the build has 18 Con is already enough to match d10 + 14 Con characters (like, say, most Paladins since Con is tertiary for them). So like MaxWilson says you can totally play other subclasses too. A Necromancer brings an entire legion of meat shields with them. The Evoker sticks their allies inside a Sculpted Sickening Radiance or something and is the only person standing outside, so enemies find themselves fighting their way to the Wizard only to discover that it's made of iron. The Diviner just does Diviner things while not being squishy. And so forth.

You've got a lot of great options. So the question is really gonna be: What exactly do you want your role to be? And how best can you synergize with your particular party?

If you just want to have a mountain dropped on your head and act like nothing happened afterwards, that's what the Abjurer's for.

[Merudo]

If you're expecting to end before level 14, then I'd definitely pick War Wizard over Abjuror. Getting +prof to Counterspell/Dispel Magic is all right, but you're more likely to be limited by spell slots and reactions anyway than by ability checks: the +prof will turn failure into victory in maybe 1 out of 4 Counterspells against high-level spells, which means that when failure is not an option, you have to upcast anyway instead of relying on lucky dice rolls. Frankly you're a hobgoblin, and your Saving Face 1/short rest bonus is probably better than the Abjuror bonus already in the rare cases where it even matters. Arcane Ward is... okay, but there are lots of ways to get HP, and getting +20ish HP shouldn't be a big deal unless your party doesn't have a real healer.

Given the choice between the two I'd pick War Wizard, but really I'd rather go Enchanter, Illusionist, or Necromancer, even on an Iron Wizard, because I really enjoy Hypnotic Gaze+Split Spell, Malleable Illusion, and/or Grim Harvest/Undead Thralls. But, it is true that Hobgoblin War Wizards excel at saving throws, so that's a definite niche.

My reasoning for the War Wizard is that it gives me a decent offensive boost (+INT to initiative really does a lot for a controller) AND it gives me a decent defensive boost (+2 AC is great on a character who probably has the best AC in the party; the bonuses to saving throws make me all around more survivable).

Necromancer is good but I'm not interested in undead spamming - I'll limit myself to 4 undead max. We already have a large group so adding a skeleton army would slow down the game too much. I'm not a fan of Grim Harvest as the HP it gives is too low and situational, and most necromancy spells are terrible anyway.

The Illusionist's Malleable Illusion I struggle to wrap my mind around. It seems powerful when combined with Creation but I don't see lots of combos with lower level spells.

The Enchanter is really fun and arguably one of the best matches for an Iron Wizard. Instinctive Charm is amusing, although realistically speaking Shield is probably a better use of a reaction. My concern is that we tend to have 5 minutes adventuring days, and most of the Enchanter's abilities seem designed to save spell slots.

[MaxWilson]

My reasoning for the War Wizard is that it gives me a decent offensive boost (+INT to initiative really does a lot for a controller) AND it gives me a decent defensive boost (+2 AC is great on a character who probably has the best AC in the party; the bonuses to saving throws make me all around more survivable).

Necromancer is good but I'm not interested in undead spamming - I'll limit myself to 4 undead max. We already have a large group so adding a skeleton army would slow down the game too much. I'm not a fan of Grim Harvest as the HP it gives is too low and situational, and most necromancy spells are terrible anyway.

The Illusionist's Malleable Illusion I struggle to wrap my mind around. It seems powerful when combined with Creation but I don't see lots of combos with lower level spells.

The Enchanter is really fun and arguably one of the best matches for an Iron Wizard. Instinctive Charm is amusing, although realistically speaking Shield is probably a better use of a reaction. My concern is that we tend to have 5 minutes adventuring days, and most of the Enchanter's abilities seem designed to save spell slots.

I'm not trying to persuade you--definitely play what you find fun--but let me explain what I like about Grim Harvest: it combos with Vampiric Touch to allow ridiculous levels of self-healing through killing weak creatures, like 2cp chickens. (Technically it allows even more healing via damage-over-time spells like Evard's Black Tentacles, because each creature dies on a separate turn, but I dislike rules technicalities involving turns per se vs. rounds.) Couple that with excellent AC and you've got a very tanky wizard.

Even with only 4 undead at a time, I'd still have a lot of fun with a Necromancer, although in that case I'd use them primarily as meat shields/grapplers instead of artillery. With only four undead, I'd be much more inclined to spam spell combos that let me exploit poison immunity, e.g. Cloudkill + grappling zombies + maybe a Planar Bound Earth Elemental (tremorsense + also immune to poison).

RE: Malleable Illusion, there are lots of neat combos but my single favorite before 9th level is Disguise Self to become basically Mystique (the X-Men mutant ultimate spy). After 9th level, it's Seeming all the way, and now everybody is Mystique including your familiars/mounts/etc. One minute you're a pack of worg-riding orcish raiders ambushing the Ambassador from Planaria, the next minute you're the Ambassador from Planaria and his entourage fleeing from a hideous massacre full of crispy bodies. It's the kind of ability that stimulates my creativity (maybe a little too much--I'm not normally into murdering ambassadors :)).

I agree that in a five-minute adventuring day, Enchanter loses almost all of its attractiveness. (Necromancer loses some too.) I'd probably go Illusionist in that case, personally. (Diviner would be very powerful in a five-minute adventuring day, but I find Diviner boring, except as a dip for a lowish-Int warrior.)