Paladin Tiefling Zariel

[Nickplatino]

Hello, I'm building a Zariel Tiefling Vengeance Paladin for Descent into Avernus and i'm not sure how to allocate the stats. I have several options but don't want to dump INT, i wouldn't like to play a dumb paladin.
It's going to go sword and board and i think Dueling for the extra damage.


First that came to mind:

STR: 15+1
DES: 10
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 14+2

A balanced build with no minus in any stat. The idea it's to go for Resilient at level 4 and get CON to 14 plus proficiency in CON saves, this would allow concentration saves to fail at level 6 only with a roll of 1 or 2 but later on it seems like overkill.

Second:

STR: 15+1
DES: 8
CON: 15
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 14+2

Not so balanced, with this build DES and WIS are -1 to saves, initiative and abilities, but it frees several points to get CON to 15 and at level 4 the idea would be to take Infernal Constitution.
At level 6 +6 to CON saves, failing concentration rolls on 1-4, cold and poison resistance and advantage with poison saves. The idea it´s to take CHA as the 8th level ASI (failing concentration on a roll of 1-3).

At level 9 Vengeance Paladins get Haste, and prior many of their best spells are concentration bound so i would like to have a good concentration save.

I don´t know if it´s worth the dumping of DES and WIS.

Thank you!

[Hytheter]

The idea it's to go for Resilient at level 4 and get CON to 14 plus proficiency in CON saves, this would allow concentration saves to fail at level 6 only with a roll of 1 or 2 but later on it seems like overkill.

Concentration saves are based on the damage you take, 10 is only the minimum, so there's no overkill to worry about (and expecting to only fail on a 1 or a 2 is somewhat optimistic). Higher the better for concentration.

[CheddarChampion]

Mechanically speaking the trade-off is (+1 HP per level and +1 to Con saves) vs (+1 to Dex and Wis saves, +1 to Dex and Wis skills).

In my experience when playing a Paladin:
It is uncommon for +1 HP per level to make a difference.
Stealth, perception, and insight are rolled fairly often.
Most saves you make to resist spells, magic, or other powers are Dex and Wis saves. (Having good saves here offsets -1 HP per level.)
If you try to be the tank, you will roll a lot of Con saves for concentration. If you focus on moving around and finishing things off, you will not roll to concentrate nearly as much.

Regarding roleplay, the trade-off is being a bit clumsier and less streetwise than the average peasant for being slightly tougher than you otherwise would. It's not a trade-off I'd take.

[da newt]

I'd take Res Con over Infernal Con every time regardless (but War Caster might be worth looking at too).

Personally, I'm against ever dumping Dex and Wis (to the point that for a straight PAL build, I'd be tempted to go DEX over ST), but I might be a little biased ...

[Nickplatino]

Concentration saves are based on the damage you take, 10 is only the minimum, so there's no overkill to worry about (and expecting to only fail on a 1 or a 2 is somewhat optimistic). Higher the better for concentration.
I understand, but damage 22 or above it's not that usual isn't it?
Thanks!

[Nickplatino]

Mechanically speaking the trade-off is (+1 HP per level and +1 to Con saves) vs (+1 to Dex and Wis saves, +1 to Dex and Wis skills).

In my experience when playing a Paladin:
It is uncommon for +1 HP per level to make a difference.
Stealth, perception, and insight are rolled fairly often.
Most saves you make to resist spells, magic, or other powers are Dex and Wis saves. (Having good saves here offsets -1 HP per level.)
If you try to be the tank, you will roll a lot of Con saves for concentration. If you focus on moving around and finishing things off, you will not roll to concentrate nearly as much.

Regarding roleplay, the trade-off is being a bit clumsier and less streetwise than the average peasant for being slightly tougher than you otherwise would. It's not a trade-off I'd take.
I agree, but my dilemma is that at level 9 vengeance paladins get haste and a failed concentration is critical. The +1 hp is not really worth it.

[Nickplatino]

I'd take Res Con over Infernal Con every time regardless (but War Caster might be worth looking at too).

Personally, I'm against ever dumping Dex and Wis (to the point that for a straight PAL build, I'd be tempted to go DEX over ST), but I might be a little biased ...
DEX over ST? How would that work?
Cheers.

[Unoriginal]

I understand, but damage 22 or above it's not that usual isn't it?
Thanks!

No spoilers, but Descent into Avernus has a *ton* of heavy hitters. Going to hell isn't a leisure stroll.

[da newt]

IMO - medium armor and a rapier = 1 less AC, and same damage as ST based sword and shield Pali but with MUCH better initiative and Dex saves and Dex based skills (depending on race choice and roll/point buy).

[Nickplatino]

No spoilers, but Descent into Avernus has a *ton* of heavy hitters. Going to hell isn't a leisure stroll.
Ufff, okei okei 😅

[Nickplatino]

IMO - medium armor and a rapier = 1 less AC, and same damage as ST based sword and shield Pali but with MUCH better initiative and Dex saves and Dex based skills (depending on race choice and roll/point buy).
Interesting!

[CTurbo]

Yeah I would also go Dex over Str too. I hate dumping Dex and Wis. Str and Int are way easier to dump. I have played a couple of Dex based Paladins and they work just fine. You're only down -1 AC so that's not much of a deal, and you COULD take the Defense fighting style to make up for it if you want. Both of my Dexadins ended up with Scimitars of Speed which is an excellent weapon. You'd probably want to choose a different Tiefling bloodline though if you choose to dump Str.

You could put an 8 in Int and roleplay it as normal intelligence. 8 isn't THAT low.

[Nickplatino]

Yeah I would also go Dex over Str too. I hate dumping Dex and Wis. Str and Int are way easier to dump. I have played a couple of Dex based Paladins and they work just fine. You're only down -1 AC so that's not much of a deal, and you COULD take the Defense fighting style to make up for it if you want. Both of my Dexadins ended up with Scimitars of Speed which is an excellent weapon. You'd probably want to choose a different Tiefling bloodline though if you choose to dump Str.

You could put an 8 in Int and roleplay it as normal intelligence. 8 isn't THAT low.
That's right, Str is not very useful for anything else than hitting. I will ask the dm if he let's me Roleplay a 8 int character as normal.

Thanks for the input!

[Unoriginal]

That's right, Str is not very useful for anything else than hitting.


Except for grappling, carrying, lifting, jumping, climbing, swimming, etc.

People tend to overinflate DEX's usefulness, especially when comparing it to STR.




I will ask the dm if he let's me Roleplay a 8 int character as normal.

8 INT is the low end of average, why would they not let you roleplay?

[Sception]

Int is less a measure of your character's general cognitive abilities and more about your chatacter's academic background. How broadly read is your character, how 'book smart' they are, how much they're able to focus on small details, etc. Overall mental abilities are just as present in wisdom and charisma. A character with a decent score in any of those can be reasonably role played as 'smart', albeit with varying fields of interest and expertise.

A paladin with int 8 isnt dumb, they just spent their formative years learning how to be a soldier and a leader rather than a scholar. when it comes to more academic questions, they only need to be smart enough to know when to rely on another's expertise.

...

As fir dexadins, they're perfectly good for single classed, sword & board, tanky paladins. But paladins focused on damage output probably want great weapon master and/or polearm master, neither of which allow finesse weapons, and while single vlassed paladin is fine, the class does have excellant multiclassing synergy with warlock, sorcerer, or bard, and the 13 strength requirement for multiclassing paladins makes it very difgicult for most dexadins to take advantage of those options, so there are definitely trade offs.

Plus, while there are a ton of great dex skills, paladins don't get extra skill proficiencies and don't have tjose skills on their class list, and want to take at least one charisma skill already, and want to get perception somehow. So even with a good dex, you're probably not going to be great at dex skills & tools anyway. A regilar strenth based paladin probably grabs persuasion and athletics from their class skills and makes great use of both, do going dex over strength isn't necessarily improving your dkills overall. That said, if everyone else in the oarty is stealthy, and your dm doesn't use group checks where their high scores can make up for your low scores, you fon't want to be the one oc that prevents your party from using stealthy tactics.

[Nickplatino]

Int is less a measure of your character's general cognitive abilities and more about your chatacter's academic background. How broadly read is your character, how 'book smart' they are, how much they're able to focus on small details, etc. Overall mental abilities are just as present in wisdom and charisma. A character with a decent score in any of those can be reasonably role played as 'smart', albeit with varying fields of interest and expertise.

A paladin with int 8 isnt dumb, they just spent their formative years learning how to be a soldier and a leader rather than a scholar. when it comes to more academic questions, they only need to be smart enough to know when to rely on another's expertise.

...

As fir dexadins, they're perfectly good for single classed, sword & board, tanky paladins. But paladins focused on damage output probably want great weapon master and/or polearm master, neither of which allow finesse weapons, and while single vlassed paladin is fine, the class does have excellant multiclassing synergy with warlock, sorcerer, or bard, and the 13 strength requirement for multiclassing paladins makes it very difgicult for most dexadins to take advantage of those options, so there are definitely trade offs.

Plus, while there are a ton of great dex skills, paladins don't get extra skill proficiencies and don't have tjose skills on their class list, and want to take at least one charisma skill already, and want to get perception somehow. So even with a good dex, you're probably not going to be great at dex skills & tools anyway. A regilar strenth based paladin probably grabs persuasion and athletics from their class skills and makes great use of both, do going dex over strength isn't necessarily improving your dkills overall. That said, if everyone else in the oarty is stealthy, and your dm doesn't use group checks where their high scores can make up for your low scores, you fon't want to be the one oc that prevents your party from using stealthy tactics.
Thank you for the response, i think i'm going to use the normal strength build, st 16, dex 10, con 13, int 10, wis 10, cha 16 with resilient (con) at level 4. I just realized that paladins get protection from poison at level 5 and that mitigates the lack of infernal constitution.

I'm torn between Persuasion and Intimidation, but both have it's uses and both fit the character.

Cheers!

[Nickplatino]

Except for grappling, carrying, lifting, jumping, climbing, swimming, etc.

People tend to overinflate DEX's usefulness, especially when comparing it to STR.




8 INT is the low end of average, why would they not let you roleplay?
You are right i suppose, i'm going to stick with the balanced stats. The backstory of the character is linked to obtaining information and to investigate for the order of the gilded eye and not so much to kill stuff (this is a bonus). 10 on int and wis and 16 in cha is more logical for a paladin with that purpose.

Cheers.