Why not an echo-thief or echo-mage?

[Segev]

Or even an echo-monk?

I just finally got to read the Echo Knight archetype, and I am unsure whether I think it’s overpowered or not. 5e has been bold in allowing cool, flavorful effects that prior editions might have reserved for higher levels, and I think a lot of those have turned out to be actually fine at the levels they’re given.

This thread, though, is about something else: there doesn’t seem to be anything uniquely “fighter-y” about the echo. As a concept.

While obviously, a 3-level dip into Echo Knight can give any PC an echo to play with, there are features of the echo that are about the fighter, but that’s the class informing how to use the concept of the echo.

Is there anything that would be “off” about an “Echo Thief” who has the same mechanics for generating and maintaining the echo, but can, for instance, use object interactions with it, and maybe can (possibly as a higher-level feature) teleport items between it and himself either directly or as part of swapping places with it?

Trickster clerics already get a similar ability. Though it’s much more restricted. Not sure it wouldn’t just be overpowered on a mage if you did anything with it that was “mage-y.” Though and interesting thought experiment might be to ask what level spell “Echo Self” might be: cast it and create an echo that uses the echo knight’s rules, maybe with the ability to source spells from it instead of attacks. Certainly, it should be a Concentration spell. But it also is quite close to what earlier editions’ Project Image was. Maybe 2nd level, Concentration, up to a minute? That’s the same level the echo knight gets it but at a greater cost.

I could almost see a four-elements monk getting an echo-like ability as a choice for one of his techniques. Maybe each element echo gets a different feature based on the element chosen? Maybe element determines which elemental techniques can be channeled through them.

[Seclora]

Echo-Thief might be one of the coolest ideas I've seen in a while. I can't think of a mechanical reason this shouldn't be possible, and the only in-universe reason I can think of is the tight control of Dunamantic training within Xhorhas. It feels like a natural extension of the ability though, and would make an interesting character.

[Dienekes]

The only real issue is that this echo thief as presented would be a better thief than the thief thief.

Of course Arcane Trickster is already a better thief than the thief. So what else is new?

The only real issue I see is that not only is this Echo Thief a better thief than the Thief, but it would by nature also step on Swashbucker’s toes. Getting a flanking partner real easily.

I’d personally remove the Unleash Incarnation or at least push it back a fair few levels. A whenever you want it do over on your potential sneak attack is pretty powerful.

[Morty]

D&D classes tend to be very arbitrary and fighters and rogues are perhaps the best example of it. If it's possible for a warrior to learn such abilities then there is infeed nothing stopping a thief/expert/explorer/whatever from doing the same. Or a barbarian, for that matter, who is a warrior but angry. So like many (or indeed most) things about D&D classes, the only answer is a shrug and "that's just how it is".

[da newt]

Just for clarity of RAW - the echo is an object not a creature/ally, therefore it cannot grant flanking (or SA).

The only things an echo can do RAW is occupy a space, allow the PC to attack from that space, move, and allow the PC to teleport/swap places with it. No object interaction, talking, abilities, actions, etc. In many ways a familiar is more useful.

[Unoriginal]

Or even an echo-monk?

I just finally got to read the Echo Knight archetype, and I am unsure whether I think it’s overpowered or not. 5e has been bold in allowing cool, flavorful effects that prior editions might have reserved for higher levels, and I think a lot of those have turned out to be actually fine at the levels they’re given.

This thread, though, is about something else: there doesn’t seem to be anything uniquely “fighter-y” about the echo. As a concept.

While obviously, a 3-level dip into Echo Knight can give any PC an echo to play with, there are features of the echo that are about the fighter, but that’s the class informing how to use the concept of the echo.

Is there anything that would be “off” about an “Echo Thief” who has the same mechanics for generating and maintaining the echo, but can, for instance, use object interactions with it, and maybe can (possibly as a higher-level feature) teleport items between it and himself either directly or as part of swapping places with it?

Trickster clerics already get a similar ability. Though it’s much more restricted. Not sure it wouldn’t just be overpowered on a mage if you did anything with it that was “mage-y.” Though and interesting thought experiment might be to ask what level spell “Echo Self” might be: cast it and create an echo that uses the echo knight’s rules, maybe with the ability to source spells from it instead of attacks. Certainly, it should be a Concentration spell. But it also is quite close to what earlier editions’ Project Image was. Maybe 2nd level, Concentration, up to a minute? That’s the same level the echo knight gets it but at a greater cost.

I could almost see a four-elements monk getting an echo-like ability as a choice for one of his techniques. Maybe each element echo gets a different feature based on the element chosen? Maybe element determines which elemental techniques can be channeled through them.

The factual answer is: because Echo Knights were part of Matt Mercer's setting before they were translated into a PC-accessible subclass.

In-universe they're supposed to be highly trained fighters who benefits from the Kryn Dynasty's research on a powerful series of artifacts called the Luxon's Beacons, which allowed the Dynasty to discover and experiment with the magic known as Dunamis. Dunamis includes things like parallel realities, which an Echo Knight exploits to create their echos.

Do note that there IS a dunamancy spell that let you summon an echo of yourself, and said echo has its own spell slots and can maintain Concentration independently of the one who summoned them.

In other word: they're a Fighter subclass because of setting reasons, not because of anything else.

[Man_Over_Game]

The factual answer is: because Echo Knights were part of Matt Mercer's setting before they were translated into a PC-accessible subclass.

In-universe they're supposed to be highly trained fighters who benefits from the Kryn Dynasty's research on a powerful series of artifacts called the Luxon's Beacons, which allowed the Dynasty to discover and experiment with the magic known as Dunamis. Dunamis includes things like parallel realities, which an Echo Knight exploits to create their echos.

Do note that there IS a dunamancy spell that let you summon an echo of yourself, and said echo has its own spell slots and can maintain Concentration independently of the one who summoned them.

In other word: they're a Fighter subclass because of setting reasons, not because of anything else.


D&D classes tend to be very arbitrary and fighters and rogues are perhaps the best example of it. If it's possible for a warrior to learn such abilities then there is infeed nothing stopping a thief/expert/explorer/whatever from doing the same. Or a barbarian, for that matter, who is a warrior but angry. So like many (or indeed most) things about D&D classes, the only answer is a shrug and "that's just how it is".


It is kinda disappointing to me, honestly. Between the concepts of:
A Monk that peers into other dimension to utilize and assist his other selves.
A Barbarian that creates an Echo of himself by imprinting his passion and willpower into the universe.
A Rogue that has learned to "steal" luck for himself by acting out several possible fates at once.
A Fighter that is trained to use an Echo of himself from another universe.

You can easily see who the odd-man out is.

What I imagine when I think of a "Temporal Clone", I instinctively think of Emotion, Fate/Time, and Multiverse stuff, and nothing about the Fighter really seems to be naturally drawn to...any of that. It's quite sad, but the theme really is nothing more than "Just cuz' ".

Sure, the Echo Knight is cool, and the Fighter, more than most, really needs some complexity added to it, but I feel like the same could be said about the Barbarian and have made a lot more sense.

[Unoriginal]

It is kinda disappointing to me, honestly. Between the concepts of:
A Monk that peers into other dimension to utilize and assist his other selves.
A Barbarian that creates an Echo of himself by imprinting his passion and willpower into the universe.
A Rogue that has learned to "steal" luck for himself by acting out several possible fates at once.
A Fighter that is trained to use an Echo of himself from another universe.

You can easily see who the odd-man out is.

What I imagine when I think of a "Temporal Clone", I instinctively think of Emotion, Fate/Time, and Multiverse stuff, and nothing about the Fighter really seems to be naturally drawn to...any of that. It's quite sad, but the theme really is nothing more than "Just cuz' ".

Sure, the Echo Knight is cool, and the Fighter, more than most, really needs some complexity added to it, but I feel like the same could be said about the Barbarian and have made a lot more sense.

What's funny is that the first Echo user met in Matt Mercer's campaign was a stealthy assassin type on an infiltration/exfiltration mission (the PCs stumbled on him during the exfiltration part due to both him and the party choosing the same escape route to avoid the guards). Still very much a STR-based melee combatant, though.

A Monk whose enlightenment allow them to enter contact with their Other Selves would certainly have been interesting, but Mercer has a... particular relationship with Monks.

[Luccan]

What's funny is that the first Echo user met in Matt Mercer's campaign was a stealthy assassin type on an infiltration/exfiltration mission (the PCs stumbled on him during the exfiltration part due to both him and the party choosing the same escape route to avoid the guards). Still very much a STR-based melee combatant, though.

A Monk whose enlightenment allow them to enter contact with their Other Selves would certainly have been interesting, but Mercer has a... particular relationship with Monks.

I have to know what that last sentence means. Other than the Cobalt Soul I can't think of anything I've seen that indicates his having any positive or negative regard for monks.

Anyway, every Fighter subclass that gets some kind of magic can be argued to work better with other classes because the Fighter is so generic. Nothing about Fighter says Echo Knight, but nothing about it says Eldritch Knight either. We already have the Paladin, there's really no justification for the EK except that it brings to mind a very D&D concept of the fighter/wizard multiclass. But you can already get that through multiclassing and otherwise the warrior-mage archetype in general already existed in a couple forms. If the Fighter had to justify any supernatural abilities they get through a subclass not going to another class, they'd never get any such abilities.

[Man_Over_Game]

I have to know what that last sentence means. Other than the Cobalt Soul I can't think of anything I've seen that indicates his having any positive or negative regard for monks.

Anyway, every Fighter subclass that gets some kind of magic can be argued to work better with other classes because the Fighter is so generic. Nothing about Fighter says Echo Knight, but nothing about it says Eldritch Knight either. We already have the Paladin, there's really no justification for the EK except that it brings to mind a very D&D concept of the fighter/wizard multiclass. But you can already get that through multiclassing and otherwise the warrior-mage archetype in general already existed in a couple forms. If the Fighter had to justify any supernatural abilities they get through a subclass not going to another class, they'd never get any such abilities.

There's some that could be justified. The Fighter is a versatile, generic fighter, good at taking hits, good at dealing with debuffs, and good at dishing out damage.

EK fits, because it's versatile, using pretty much anything as a tool.

Battlemaster fits, because it is versatile and focuses around its plethora of attacks to control the battlefield.

Samurai fits, because it's a tanky and lethal warrior that is impossible to put down.

Cavalier fits, because it's a defender that leverages its high defensive capabilities to launch more aggressive attacks against his enemies.

These all emphasize a sense of "self", that you focus on your basic techniques of the Fighter to become a better Fighter.

All of them could be envisioned as "More Fighter". The Echo Knight doesn't really do that, unless you're just focusing on the daily attack spam. It mostly generates its own mechanics rather than focusing on improving the things you're already doing. Which is good from a complexity viewpoint, but not one for consistency and theme.

For example, "Gaining magical powers based on a resource that are temporary and circumstantial that you play around in combat" basically describes every single Barbarian subclass. A Battlemaster and a Samurai basically play the same way, while a Bear Totem Barbarian and Ancestral Guardian do not.

[Unoriginal]

I have to know what that last sentence means. Other than the Cobalt Soul I can't think of anything I've seen that indicates his having any positive or negative regard for monks.

Mercer is oftentime puzzled by Monks and what they can do.

For example, he:

-has had three consecutive fights with different versions of "every time you hit the enemy in melee you get poison damage" without remembering that the lvl 10+ Monk PC is immune to poison.

-took several handfuls of episodes to realize Monks can run up vertical surfaces without issues, and sometime still ask for checks for climbing/jumping when the Monk PC does so.

-is very often surprised by the damage output of Monks, especially against low-mid AC opponents, as well as by how fast they are.

-was surprised by one of the BBEGs who he wanted escaping dying because Matt forgot about Stunning Strike.

-was surprised when the Monk just Stillness of Mind'd away another BBEG's attempt at mind-control (when the BBEG needed/wanted two mind-controlled PCs to sacrifice for the plan Matt had in mind).

-kept modifying his Cobalt Soul subclass to the point that currently, aside from skill proficiencies/Expertise, the supposed "INT-using Monk subclass" has lost all its INT-related features.


I don't think Matt Mercer hates the Monk class (he wouldn't have his Monk NPC Earthbreaker Groon be presented as being awesome if he did), but I think he's genuine when he says "Monks are bull****", and he has trouble handling/remembering what they can do.

[Tvtyrant]

Or even an echo-monk?

I just finally got to read the Echo Knight archetype, and I am unsure whether I think it’s overpowered or not. 5e has been bold in allowing cool, flavorful effects that prior editions might have reserved for higher levels, and I think a lot of those have turned out to be actually fine at the levels they’re given.

This thread, though, is about something else: there doesn’t seem to be anything uniquely “fighter-y” about the echo. As a concept.

While obviously, a 3-level dip into Echo Knight can give any PC an echo to play with, there are features of the echo that are about the fighter, but that’s the class informing how to use the concept of the echo.

Is there anything that would be “off” about an “Echo Thief” who has the same mechanics for generating and maintaining the echo, but can, for instance, use object interactions with it, and maybe can (possibly as a higher-level feature) teleport items between it and himself either directly or as part of swapping places with it?

Trickster clerics already get a similar ability. Though it’s much more restricted. Not sure it wouldn’t just be overpowered on a mage if you did anything with it that was “mage-y.” Though and interesting thought experiment might be to ask what level spell “Echo Self” might be: cast it and create an echo that uses the echo knight’s rules, maybe with the ability to source spells from it instead of attacks. Certainly, it should be a Concentration spell. But it also is quite close to what earlier editions’ Project Image was. Maybe 2nd level, Concentration, up to a minute? That’s the same level the echo knight gets it but at a greater cost.

I could almost see a four-elements monk getting an echo-like ability as a choice for one of his techniques. Maybe each element echo gets a different feature based on the element chosen? Maybe element determines which elemental techniques can be channeled through them.
I think having multi-class sub classes is a great idea tbh. Echo-anything works just as well, even the weirdest ones can be fluffed as just having a sentient shadow.

[Luccan]

I suppose one argument that could be made for the Echo Knight is that it does echo (heh) the EK/Wizard relationship, namely that the other dunamancy subclasses are both wizard focused.

[Segev]

Anyway, every Fighter subclass that gets some kind of magic can be argued to work better with other classes because the Fighter is so generic. Nothing about Fighter says Echo Knight, but nothing about it says Eldritch Knight either. We already have the Paladin, there's really no justification for the EK except that it brings to mind a very D&D concept of the fighter/wizard multiclass. But you can already get that through multiclassing and otherwise the warrior-mage archetype in general already existed in a couple forms. If the Fighter had to justify any supernatural abilities they get through a subclass not going to another class, they'd never get any such abilities.I wasn't trying to complain that "Echo Knight" shouldn't be a fighter subclass, but more just saying that it feels weird to be only a fighter thing. Battlemaster could arguably be expanded to a bard or rogue subclass, and maybe even somehow dropped into Barbarian (though it'd be an awkward fit for Paladin or Ranger), but it makes sense on the "generic Fighter class" because it's the starting point of the Martial Adept. (I remain sad that it didn't expand at all. It could do with more techniques being printed, and more classes getting access to the superiority die and associated mechanics.)

Echos just seem... like spellcasting, they could be a thing that multiple classes access and tweak in their own ways.


There's some that could be justified. The Fighter is a versatile, generic fighter, good at taking hits, good at dealing with debuffs, and good at dishing out damage.

EK fits, because it's versatile, using pretty much anything as a tool.

Battlemaster fits, because it is versatile and focuses around its plethora of attacks to control the battlefield.

Samurai fits, because it's a tanky and lethal warrior that is impossible to put down.

Cavalier fits, because it's a defender that leverages its high defensive capabilities to launch more aggressive attacks against his enemies.

These all emphasize a sense of "self", that you focus on your basic techniques of the Fighter to become a better Fighter.

All of them could be envisioned as "More Fighter". The Echo Knight doesn't really do that, unless you're just focusing on the daily attack spam. It mostly generates its own mechanics rather than focusing on improving the things you're already doing. Which is good from a complexity viewpoint, but not one for consistency and theme.

For example, "Gaining magical powers based on a resource that are temporary and circumstantial that you play around in combat" basically describes every single Barbarian subclass. A Battlemaster and a Samurai basically play the same way, while a Bear Totem Barbarian and Ancestral Guardian do not.Yeah, building on the above, if "echo" is a power source the way Incarnum and Spellcasting and Psionics were in 3e (and the way Spellcasting still is in 5e), then having subclasses for a number of base classes that use the echo mechanics could be interesting. Nothing against Echo Knight; it seems a good manifestation of "echo" as a fighter subclass.

I would argue, though, that the EK is an example of "subclass as PrC" where Paladins play differently. EK is the fighter/mage, just as AT is the rogue/mage. You could probably make a "Raging Blood" barbarian subclass that steals a lot from the PF Bloodrager class to make a "barbarian/sorcerer," too.


I think having multi-class sub classes is a great idea tbh. Echo-anything works just as well, even the weirdest ones can be fluffed as just having a sentient shadow.I suppose the question is, does this work best as a single subclass that can slot into multiple classes that have the same or similar break-points for subclass features? OR would it be better to have a custom Echo subclass for each class that gets access to this power source?

Having thought more about it as a "power source, like psionics or spellcasting," I now lean towards the latter.

As a thrown-together example for the third level feature of a Fate Fugitive:


Fate Fugitives elude the consequences of their actions by slipping between destinies. Stealing the fates of otherselves who made other choices, they can slip into better circumstances and even call forth the shadows of who they might have been.

Split Decision
3rd-level Fate Fugitive feature
When you use a bonus action to perform anything you can do with a Cunning Action, you may manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space adjacent to you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed or the start of your next turn. During your turn, after manifesting it, you may cause it to move up to your movement speed in any direction.

Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). It does not count as an ally or enemy to any creature. If you gain a second echo from any effect, the first one is immediately dispelled.

As your reaction, you can teleport to magically swap places with your echo, regardless of the distance between the two of you. If you do, you may choose to have any non-echo objects your echo is holding appear in your possession or teleport with it, at your choice.
You may perform actions from your echo's location or your own.
If you are hidden, it benefits from the same Dexterity(Stealth) roll you made to establish your own DC to be detected.

The idea is to make it more distinctly rogue-flavored. Not sure it's very good or not too good, but hey.

[Tvtyrant]

If it's a power source I would guess you would make it based on a combo of Shadow and Fey planes, since they are the secondary material planes. Like you have two other-world clones, and you pull one of them into this world or back.