Was there even a point for Malak to create a "sibling"?

[Justyz]

Considering Durkula had a completely different agenda, the second Malak would have released him from his thrall he would have either bolted or kill him (If Malak resisted).

Malak as a vampire knew that once you get reincarnated as a Vampire you get "sired" by your local evil deity, just like he was by Nergal. Considering Malak was a cleric AND he specifically discussed Hel with Durkon, he should have easily seen Durkon become her vessel.

So what was the logic in thinking they'd have a peerage relationship?

[CriticalFailure]

Companionship, it’s lonely being a vampire and mortal friends presumably don’t get what it’s like.

[Gift Jeraff]

Malack couldn't have known that Durkula was going to be given a very specific and urgent mission. He probably just expected his spawn would want to do the same to the Northern Lands as what Malack is doing to the Western Continent. They could've still kept in touch.

[hroþila]

We shouldn't assume that all northern vampires or even all northern vampire clerics are just as devoted to Hel as Durkon was, but even a devoted vampire cleric of Hel might not have anything better to do with their unlife than hang out with Malack.

[Anymage]

Malack couldn't have known that Durkula was going to be given a very specific and urgent mission. He probably just expected his spawn would want to do the same to the Northern Lands what Malack is doing to the Western Continent. They could've still kept in touch.

This.

Greg might have even stuck around of his own free will, if not for the multitude of reasons not to. (Hel's mission, membership in the party, Malack being inconveniently dead.) But living Durkon was quite happy to be friends with Malack before he got wind of the truth. A version of Durkon who was also an evil vampire would probably have similar feelings of friendship.

[Synesthesy]

For what I understood, there is no prove that vampires of other races are created by the God of Death of their homeland. Dwarf are special, as we know, and Hel says that "Dwarves fall under my purview (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)". Maybe if Malack had vampirized Belkar, the new Count Belkula would have been near to Nergal as a deity and a possible friend of Malack.

[Riftwolf]

This raises the question; presumably the Godsmoot got called shortly after Girards Gate fell. Did Nergal get a vote?

[Gift Jeraff]

This raises the question; presumably the Godsmoot got called shortly after Girards Gate fell. Did Nergal get a vote?

No one present at the Western Godsmoot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) had garb resembling Malack's or his clergy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html) so I'm guessing no.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon* even said that another vampire made from another dwarf might have rejected Hel’s plan altogether.

Malack didn’t know Durkon* would have a mission and was probably planning on giving him a position of power within his shared empires like Kilkil’s with the promise of being the number 2 of the immortal ruler of an entire continent down the line. He might also have planned on helping Durkon* with any unfinished business from his previous life and was planning to help him through the transitional period of absorbing his host’s memory (a lot of Durkon*’s behavior, such as his inability to correlate memories and his inability to understand Sigdi’s selflessness can be attributed to him being an immature vampire). Add to that that he was going to teach him how to resist the sun and build him a coffin, and you can see how Malack could have expected Durkon* to willingly stick around once freed, a year or two in the relationship. If Malack ever planned on freeing him, that is.

[tomandtish]

Yeah, others have said it well. There's plenty of reasons for Malak to make a sibling. He even picked the person he thought he'd get along with best. Unfortunately, someone else had bigger plans.

[mjasghar]

No one present at the Western Godsmoot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) had garb resembling Malack's or his clergy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html) so I'm guessing no.

We don’t see the whole of the gathering and I’d say that it’s unlikely Nergal wouldn’t have been represented. Seeing as how a priest of Fenrir was able to turn up.

[Anymage]

If Malack ever planned on freeing him, that is.

"You will feel more like yourself once I release you from my thrall - but I worry that doing so now would be ... confusing for you. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)"

Malack seems to have every intention of releasing Durkon down the line. For that matter, he would have been quite happy if living Durkon were willing to place their friendship as clerics over party loyalty and call a truce. Absolutely none of Malack's behaviors imply someone who was looking to maintain long term thralldom.


This raises the question; presumably the Godsmoot got called shortly after Girards Gate fell. Did Nergal get a vote?

Hel's supposed lack of vote was due to her lack of clerics. No living ones, and the undead ones were killed as boss monsters instead of being able to build a proper religious infrastructure that would allow for high level clerics and a place in religious debates. Durkon was just an exceptionally lucky bit of timing.

While it's possible that some other gods in some other pantheons had their own side bets to keep things interesting, Malack's and his underlings definitely had a place within the social order. It's also very unlikely that it would be another death god having the exact same "no living clerics" deal if some of the gods did decide on a side wager to keep things interesting. So while it's possible that there wasn't another priest of Nergal high enough level to cast Summon Proxy handy, it's unlikely and would be a noteworthy case of bad luck instead of the expected state of affairs.

[Precure]

He's delusional, simple as that. Murder of his "children" was a traumatic event for him, and he's in serious need of someone he can relate to.

[Worldsong]

Honestly given how Malack had been portrayed as genuinely friendly towards Durkon I imagine that if Greg had told him "Sorry, but my goddess has a quest for me so I can't stick around." Malack would have been very understanding. He'd probably just have tried to schedule lunch at a later date.

The thing with Malack is that I think he was supposed to represent something Rich has written about before, how being Evil doesn't mean you can't have people you care for. In a way Malack is a foil to Tarquin, as Tarquin is the kind of Evil who, when push comes to shove, doesn't actually care about his family if they don't fit within his plans.

Of course some might argue that Malack also ended up choosing his plans over his friendship with Durkon but in his case I interpreted it as 'I'm sorry it has come to this' rather than Tarquin's 'If you can't play your part I have no use for you'. Even after he and Durkon came to blows Malack remained polite, and vampirizing Durkon was his final attempt at maintaining that friendship.

Although even with all of that he's still extremely Evil and the world is much better off with him slain.

[Quebbster]

We don’t see the whole of the gathering and I’d say that it’s unlikely Nergal wouldn’t have been represented. Seeing as how a priest of Fenrir was able to turn up.
If Malack was the High Priest of Nergal, it's also quite possible that a new high priest hadnt been appointed. Considering Malack went out into the desert and didn't come back, he might not have been declared dead even.
Another possibility is that Nergal's new High Priest couldn't cast Summon Proxy for whatever reason.
Plenty of possible explanations, not that it really matters.

[dancrilis]

If Malack was the High Priest of Nergal...
... then he probably wouldn't have considered Durkon to be of equal standing (panel 1). (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)

[hroþila]

I'm 100% agnostic about whether or not Nergal had a representative at the Western godsmoot. On the one hand, there was very little time between Malack's death and the godsmoot, so it's not far-fetched to think the church didn't have the time to appoint his successor. On the other hand, churches tend to have clear hierarchies and succession mechanisms, so it's not far-fetched to think they did pick a replacement in time. Hell, it's even possible that "high priest" described his role in the Empire of Blood rather than within the church of Nergal (I suspect this was also the case of Azure City's high priest of the Twelve Gods).

As for what Malack was meant to convey, it wasn't "Evil people can still have people they care about" so much as "civil and cordial Evil is still Evil, that's just a façade that can be dropped at the Evil person's convenience". Malack did care about his spawn, for example, and seemingly about Tarquin for reasons that escape me, but I don't think that was his actual thing in the story.

[Gift Jeraff]

... then he probably wouldn't have considered Durkon to be of equal standing (panel 1). (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)

He almost certainly means "experienced adventuring cleric" in that panel, given the context.

[Fyraltari]

"You will feel more like yourself once I release you from my thrall - but I worry that doing so now would be ... confusing for you. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)"

Malack seems to have every intention of releasing Durkon down the line. For that matter, he would have been quite happy if living Durkon were willing to place their friendship as clerics over party loyalty and call a truce. Absolutely none of Malack's behaviors imply someone who was looking to maintain long term thralldom.
I should have gone back and checked. Yup it looked like Malack did intend to free Durkon. From his words, it sounds like he was going to wait until Durkon* had absorbed most of Durkon’s memories so probably a couple weeks or something.

Honestly given how Malack had been portrayed as genuinely friendly towards Durkon I imagine that if Greg had told him "Sorry, but my goddess has a quest for me so I can't stick around." Malack would have been very understanding. He'd probably just have tried to schedule lunch at a later date.
[...]

Of course some might argue that Malack also ended up choosing his plans over his friendship with Durkon but in his case I interpreted it as 'I'm sorry it has come to this' rather than Tarquin's 'If you can't play your part I have no use for you'. Even after he and Durkon came to blows Malack remained polite, and vampirizing Durkon was his final attempt at maintaining that friendship.

And there’s a good chance it’d Have worked. From what we see of the way memory absorption influence a vampire, the end result would be similar to the host but with a flipped upside down value system. Had Durkon* lived he would have retained the traits that drew Malack to him : love of theological discussion, complaining about party members’ recklessness and lawful personality but without those pesky tebedency to ask about the lunch’s human rights that Malack couldn’t care for.

[Morty]

Was Malack actually Nergal's high priest? Or just the head priest in whatever new state he and Tarquin were pulling the strings of?

[Kornaki]

He mentions in one of the links above that the high priestess of Ishtar peed on his altar, which makes me think there's a decent chance he's the high priest.

[Metastachydium]

He mentions in one of the links above that the high priestess of Ishtar peed on his altar, which makes me think there's a decent chance he's the high priest.

Permit me to draw your attention to strip no. 719, panel no. 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html), whatever the stuff established there means.

[Riftwolf]

Permit me to draw your attention to strip no. 719, panel no. 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html), whatever the stuff established there means.

It's not clear if being a high priest means like a Bishop of a given area, Pope of the whole religion, or everything in between. Its possible the High Priests we've seen in the Godsmoot weren't *the* High Priest of their Gods, but *a* High Priest of that God.

[Metastachydium]

It's not clear if being a high priest means like a Bishop of a given area, Pope of the whole religion, or everything in between. Its possible the High Priests we've seen in the Godsmoot weren't *the* High Priest of their Gods, but *a* High Priest of that God.

Well, we do know that Northern gods have formal high priests of the the sort (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html).

[KorvinStarmast]

But living Durkon was quite happy to be friends with Malack before he got wind of the truth. A version of Durkon who was also an evil vampire would probably have similar feelings of friendship. They could both prepare / cast sending, so I think they'd have kept in touch.

[Ionathus]

One point that hasn't been brought up yet: (EDIT: Except it was, by Fyraltari)


"Who knows? Some other vampire spirit who was made-to-order for a different dwarf might've done as Roy suggested and rejected Hel's plan from the start.

I guess we're just lucky you've got so much unresolved resentment lurking under that beard. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html)"

Either Greg was lying/exaggerating to torment Durkon further, or he truly was admitting that vampires are free-willed and one of them could easily have stuck around and remained friends with Malack.

My money would be on Hel wanting that vampire in Northern Lands no matter what, as others have said, but no matter where he ended up I could definitely see him maintaining a coworker/friend relationship with Malack.

[dancrilis]

One point that hasn't been brought up yet:



Either Greg was lying/exaggerating to torment Durkon further, or he truly was admitting that vampires are free-willed and one of them could easily have stuck around and remained friends with Malack.

My money would be on Hel wanting that vampire in Northern Lands no matter what, as others have said, but no matter where he ended up I could definitely see him maintaining a coworker/friend relationship with Malack.

In it also possible that Malack would have kept him entralled for three days so he could absorb more memories without acting on his own plans (and possible missing the Godsmoot),

Had not-Durkon more time to absorb he might have been different, if he had the three days he would not have been able to be undone by Durkon:


First, the main difference between Durkon's situation and other vampires is the speed at which everything happened. A standard vampire gets three days in the grave to absorb the lion's share of memories, and then takes months to slowly assimilate the rest. This vampire didn't get any of that, and so they were overwhelmed. A vampire who absorbs the memories in the "proper" way will not be overwhelmed. It could easily be argued that this would be a "balancing factor" in Malack's swift-rise spell, if I was going to stat it up for actual D&D play (which I'm not). And that's an aspect that Hel and her newly-created minion wouldn't necessarily know about, because it was Nergal's spell.

Second, unlike the other vampires, he needed to access those memories right away because he needed to impersonate Durkon. The Exarch is not going to be in as much danger of something like this because nobody cares what spirit is in charge. He can (in theory) just put off even looking at all but the most basic of Gontor's memories until this whole thing is over, and then sip them slowly over years.


As such it is possible that if he was a trall longer and gained control in different circumstances he might never have followed the plan - or been able to follow the plan and thereby could have started a new one (a cult of Hel linked in trade to the Empire of Blood might be valid to begin a kingdom in the north dedicated to the Northern Goddess of Death).

[Fyraltari]

One point that hasn't been brought up yet
*coughs*


Durkon* even said that another vampire made from another dwarf might have rejected Hel’s plan altogether.
*coughs*


As such it is possible that if he was a trall longer and gained control in different circumstances he might never have followed the plan - or been able to follow the plan and thereby could have started a new one (a cult of Hel linked in trade to the Empire of Blood might be valid to begin a kingdom in the north dedicated to the Northern Goddess of Death).
Durkon* probbaly would have followed the plan anyway as he would still have hated the dwarves and Hel probably promised him power in the next world. However it probably would have been to late to reach the Godsmoot unless Malack had teleportation magic on that scale.

[dancrilis]

*coughs*


*coughs*

Durkon* probbaly would have followed the plan anyway as he would still have hated the dwarves and Hel probably promised him power in the next world. However it probably would have been to late to reach the Godsmoot unless Malack had teleportation magic on that scale.

Agreed but you never know, he might have awoken hateful and if he had days to process (and review more pleasant memories) rather then always be on the job then he might have mellowed.

Either Laurin or Miron could have helped out - but I doubt either would have, I do think he might have thrown away a valuable resource in Zz'dtri - a wizard who could teleport, he might have been able to convince/trick Nale to go to the Godsmoot quicker and easier then Roy but he might not have absorbed the right memories to let him know that was an option (where Durkon might have let him know an airship was on the way).

[Fyraltari]

Agreed but you never know, he might have awoken hateful and if he had days to process (and review more pleasant memories) rather then always be on the job then he might have mellowed.

Mellowed, sure, but he would have always hated Thor and the dwarves. As his very first memory, this one colors all the others, he's literally building his identity around it. Plus he'd still be a Cleric of hel so he'd better do what he's told.

[dancrilis]

Mellowed, sure, but he would have always hated Thor and the dwarves. As his very first memory, this one colors all the others, he's literally building his identity around it. Plus he'd still be a Cleric of hel so he'd better do what he's told.

Nergal likely would have been fine with him also - whether he could properly make the choice about what do before he was released from Malack I would be unsure about, and going 'screw the dwarves and their entire continent' might have been a reasonable option.

[Metastachydium]

Either Laurin or Miron could have helped out - but I doubt either would have

Eh, if Malack were on board with the idea, he could have simply asked a favour for his little, hairy friend without explaining his larger hairy friends the details. Sole problem is, I see reason to believe that he kind of cared about those two (and even Tarquin) as well.

[Fyraltari]

Nergal likely would have been fine with him also - whether he could properly make the choice about what do before he was released from Malack I would be unsure about, and going 'screw the dwarves and their entire continent' might have been a reasonable option.

I'm not sure it's possible for a Northener (and a dwarf at that) to worship a Western god.

[Anymage]

In it also possible that Malack would have kept him entralled for three days so he could absorb more memories without acting on his own plans (and possible missing the Godsmoot),

Had not-Durkon more time to absorb he might have been different, if he had the three days he would not have been able to be undone by Durkon:


As such it is possible that if he was a trall longer and gained control in different circumstances he might never have followed the plan - or been able to follow the plan and thereby could have started a new one (a cult of Hel linked in trade to the Empire of Blood might be valid to begin a kingdom in the north dedicated to the Northern Goddess of Death).

Like Fyr pointed out, Durkon is at his base a faithful cleric. Add in the part where Hel very much wants to keep that part of him intact (and is responsible for the vampire spirit), and there's no reason to believe that Greg with full memory integration wouldn't be in the same boat. Timing wouldn't meaningfully change anything.

And if we assume that Greg did have the time to fully integrate memories and that the godsmoot was also scheduled for a week later, I don't think another cleric would have any trouble with his friend saying "duty calls, I'll be back when it's over with". (Which yeah, end of the world stuff would interfere with. That's just one of the complications of working for a god.)


I'm not sure it's possible for a Northener (and a dwarf at that) to worship a Western god.

Why wouldn't it be an option? It's unlikely that someone would be in a position to learn enough about a foreign deity in order to get that involved, much like it's most likely that a person in the real world adopts the religion most common in whatever area they grew up in. However, it isn't unknown for a person in the real world to convert if they find another religion suits them better, and I don't see why stickverse residents wouldn't be the same way. And since gods can usually expect roughly as many converts in as converts out, no reason why they'd put in blocks otherwise.

[Worldsong]

I'm not sure it's possible for a Northener (and a dwarf at that) to worship a Western god.

I'd say it's possible but difficult. Might be trickier for an already dedicted cleric since their deity would rather not let them go if possible.

[hroþila]

Why wouldn't it be an option? It's unlikely that someone would be in a position to learn enough about a foreign deity in order to get that involved, much like it's most likely that a person in the real world adopts the religion most common in whatever area they grew up in. However, it isn't unknown for a person in the real world to convert if they find another religion suits them better, and I don't see why stickverse residents wouldn't be the same way. And since gods can usually expect roughly as many converts in as converts out, no reason why they'd put in blocks otherwise.
Because, as far as we know, in the real world worshippers are not a resource that is more or less evenly shared by virtue of a series of agreements between dozens of gods.

I mean, we don't know that you can't change pantheons in the stickverse, but this sounds like a good reason why it wouldn't be possible in any meaningful way. Like someone should obviously be able to burn offerings to deities of different pantheons or whatever (and it is quite likely the guy aboard the Mechane did just that), but that's a bit different.

[Anymage]

Because, as far as we know, in the real world worshippers are not a resource that is more or less evenly shared by virtue of a series of agreements between dozens of gods.

I mean, we don't know that you can't change pantheons in the stickverse, but this sounds like a good reason why it wouldn't be possible in any meaningful way. Like someone should obviously be able to burn offerings to deities of different pantheons or whatever (and it is quite likely the guy aboard the Mechane did just that), but that's a bit different.

Roy is a very lukewarm believer. Haley and Belkar haven't said much about their religious beliefs. Gontor and the whole rest of the Creed of the Stone chose to worship elemental earth. Elan worships a puppet. Those don't sound like the gods compelling belief.

Someone raised in the west is very likely to have their beliefs and cultural baseline defined by the western gods. Ignore the dwarf special case and assume a baseline human; How much would Marduk lose if one saw the twelve gods as a right and true religion compared to one just choosing to follow Nergal?

[Riftwolf]

Roy is a very lukewarm believer. Haley and Belkar haven't said much about their religious beliefs. Gontor and the whole rest of the Creed of the Stone chose to worship elemental earth. Elan worships a puppet. Those don't sound like the gods compelling belief.

Someone raised in the west is very likely to have their beliefs and cultural baseline defined by the western gods. Ignore the dwarf special case and assume a baseline human; How much would Marduk lose if one saw the twelve gods as a right and true religion compared to one just choosing to follow Nergal?

I can imagine Western/Southern Deities who value honour (and expect their followers to live honourable lives) welcoming Dwarven followers (I don't know enough about the Western Pantheon and their representation in D&D but I'm guessing Marduk is one such God). Live honourably = great, regular afterlife agreement. Live dishonourably = no longer my jurisdiction. It might be a rare occurrence, and I doubt Marduk/Ox will be arguing for individual souls like Thor did (as two quiddities arguing the definition of honour would be marginally more catastrophic than a forum alignment thread), but it might not be impossible.

[hroþila]

Roy is a very lukewarm believer. Haley and Belkar haven't said much about their religious beliefs. Gontor and the whole rest of the Creed of the Stone chose to worship elemental earth. Elan worships a puppet. Those don't sound like the gods compelling belief.

Someone raised in the west is very likely to have their beliefs and cultural baseline defined by the western gods. Ignore the dwarf special case and assume a baseline human; How much would Marduk lose if one saw the twelve gods as a right and true religion compared to one just choosing to follow Nergal?
It's not about "compelling belief" or devotion, though, or at least not entirely about devotion. Roy is a very lukewarm "believer", but he absolutely believes the Northern gods exist, and that belief powers the Northern gods whether or not Roy actively worships them (i.e. by participating in rituals, praying, etc). We don't know that Gontor and Elan stopped powering the Northern gods when they started worshipping other things.

[Anymage]

It's not about "compelling belief" or devotion, though, or at least not entirely about devotion. Roy is a very lukewarm "believer", but he absolutely believes the Northern gods exist, and that belief powers the Northern gods whether or not Roy actively worships them (i.e. by participating in rituals, praying, etc). We don't know that Gontor and Elan stopped powering the Northern gods when they started worshipping other things.

I "believe in" the existence of all the major real-world faiths, because those faiths all verifiably exist. The existence of real-world deities is well outside this board's purpose, but if there were indisputable evidence for their existence I'd believe in all of them too. The same way that I "believe in" giraffes or the pyramids. In the stickverse where gods are verifiably real, every educated person "believes in" other gods in very much the same way; Malack knows that the northern gods exist and has at least a passing understanding of them, even if they aren't as important to him as his own patron deity. Practically everybody in the stickverse believes in the existence of all the major pantheons and all the gods within.

Devotion and worship are the big things that a convert would redirect. Again, until you can show me how not worshiping at all or throwing that worship away on a puppet is meaningfully worse than worshiping a god of another pantheon, I'm not seeing why gods would be too bothered in the general case.

(In the specific case of dwarves, I don't know what would happen if all dwarves everywhere upended their culture and decided to suddenly move to the south, dress in all blue and worship the southern gods. There might have been divine compacts hammered out ahead of time, it might be a specieswide loophole. Given that "get all dwarves to coordinate on becoming culturally southerners" is ballpark as likely as "get all dwarves to coordinate a mass honorable suicide civil war", I don't see this having any risk of moving beyond theory.)

[Worldsong]

I imagine that in more rural areas belief in the gods from other regions would still be a bit more questionable, but beyond that any experienced traveller would take their existence for granted and so would anyone who lives in large enough a settlement that clerics from other places would end up passing through there.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I recognize that the thread has sort of moved on, but I'd like to ask a few more related questions. Was there even a point for Eugene to create offspring? Did Tarquin have an original idea for how having children would fit into his plans, and if so what was it? What was the point of V taking care of children with their spouse? Before the black dragon lost her husband to adventurers, was there an original point to her son? We already know that Haley, The Draketooth Clan and Hinjo were created to either be allies or to continue running a scheme after a parent's death.

We got to see Malak express sentimentality over previous spawn. So it seems pretty straightforwards to me. He was trying to do a modern remake of something from an earlier decade.

[KillianHawkeye]

They could both prepare / cast sending, so I think they'd have kept in touch.

They also became friends on Macebook. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)

[Precure]

They also became friends on Macebook. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)

Durkon needs to update that.

[ebarde]

Malak was not well versed of Northern cosmology, and even if he was, Durkon was way too much of an outliar for him to have predicted what would hapoen.