Weirdness with Mnemonic Enhancer: why retain?

[Zaq]

This was inspired by a question in the Simple RAW thread, but I realized that I'm going in a somewhat different direction than the question that was asked, so I decided to start a thread.


Mnemonic Enhancer
Transmutation
Level: Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting this spell allows you to prepare additional spells or retain spells recently cast. Pick one of these two versions when the spell is cast.

Prepare
You prepare up to three additional levels of spells. A cantrip counts as ½ level for this purpose. You prepare and cast these spells normally.

Retain
You retain any spell of 3rd level or lower that you had cast up to 1 round before you started casting the mnemonic enhancer. This restores the previously cast spell to your mind.

In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast).

Material Component
A piece of string, and ink consisting of squid secretion with black dragon’s blood.

Focus
An ivory plaque of at least 50 gp value.

I have to wonder what the benefit would be of ever using the "retain" feature, since it would seem that unless you're retaining a spell that you couldn't prepare for some reason, it's strictly worse to retain than to prepare. If the spell you're retaining is lower than 3rd level, prepare allows you to get back the spell AND to get something else as well. If the spell you're retaining is 3rd level, you come out with the same net result by using prepare, but you don't have to cast mnemonic enhancer starting on the round after you cast the spell in question--you can wait a while.

So what IS the intended use of the "retain" function? What does it possibly let you do that prepare wouldn't let you do if you're playing it straight?

I suppose you could argue that it lets you retain a spell you cast spontaneously out of a non-wizard slot, since you arguably couldn't prepare that. That seems... more niche than even WotC would have come up with early on (I mean, it's not like there's much in the PHB that actively encourages multiclassing, especially between wizard and non-wizard; I guess there's technically mystic theurge in the DMG, but all the divine classes when the DMG was printed could prepare spells anyway).

You don't suppose that this is intended to allow metamagic shenanigans to happen, since, to use a boring and WotCish example, an empowered fireball is still a 3rd level spell that happens to occupy a 5th level slot, right? (PHB pg. 88: "Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.") So I guess maybe that would technically work, but again, that just doesn't smell right to me, even if it works by RAW. That just doesn't strike me as being intended. Very possibly legal, but not necessarily intended. Though all I have to back that up is a gut feeling; I have no textual evidence to prove that this isn't the intent.

The question in the Simple RAW thread that got me looking at mnemonic enhancer in the first place was talking about spells cast via scrolls, wands, or other spell completion / spell trigger items. It's possible that the retain feature might work on those? To be honest I'm not as familiar with the distinctions between completion vs. trigger vs. self-generated spell as I am with some other minutiae of the 3.5 rules and I frankly don't feel like looking that particular distinction up right now, but if that's a vein you feel like mining, by all means, dive in and explain.

What do you think the intent is of allowing both the prepare option and the retain option? When would one ever use retain instead of prepare? Seems that the metamagic example would work by RAW, probably, unless someone points out a clause I'm not seeing (and if that's the case, by all means, please point that out).

[GrayDeath]

Easy.

You choose retain if you dont have the time to prepare, and really really need/want another Cast of that specific Spell.

Its the tactical option, compared to the Strategical of "prepare Extra".

[ExLibrisMortis]

Edit: @Graydeath: The casting time is 10 minutes regardless of the version you choose. I don't think you can cast it in combat.

I think "preserving free metamagic" is the answer here--not the intended design, I'm sure, but the current use. For example, if you had a spell enhanced by a Mind Mage's abilities (or DMM, on a theurge), you could (effectively) cast that spell several times out of a 4th-level slot, which might be cheaper than the original metamagic feat. Of course, the 10-minute casting time kinda ruins it, but hey, free metamagic :smalltongue:.

[JoshuaZ]

The other arguable reason to use it is if you have lost your spellbook. But that's also extremely situational.

[Endarire]

It's also a slight amount of spontaneity as a Wizard: You spend a level 4 spell slot or item to cast this spell then cast another (non-combat) spell you've already cast of your choice later.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sanctum spell and throw on something that benefits from casting a spell? Just chain mnemonic enhancers together back to back

[Segev]

When Mordenkainen's player invented it in original D&D, I'm sure the purpose was to allow him to give up a 4th level spell slot to have a second copy of a 3rd level spell without having to predict which of his prepared 3rd level spells he'd want more of in advance.

[JoshuaZ]

When Mordenkainen's player invented it in original D&D, I'm sure the purpose was to allow him to give up a 4th level spell slot to have a second copy of a 3rd level spell without having to predict which of his prepared 3rd level spells he'd want more of in advance.

Yes, but the first ability covers that fine. The question is why one would ever use the second option.

[Necroticplague]

Because Retain lets you get around the spells per day of a certain level, while Prepare does not, I beleive. As a result, Prepare is only useful if you take advantage of a wizard's ability to leave some of his spell slots unprepared. Retain, however, can be used even if you've already used up all your prepared slots.

[The Viscount]

It gives you this sort of pseudo-spontaneous casting of a 3rd level spell, as said if you want an extra 3rd level spell, but you don't know which one. I'm not sure why you think you'll realize it during the day and have it set up to cast this for 10 minutes right after, though. I suppose I could imagine a situation where due to vague clues you think you'll need some combination of spell A and spell B to kill specific monsters, but then after you use say a fireball to finish off a troll he says "wait till my dad hears about this he'll beat you up" so you realize you need another fireball?

While we're asking questions, I can understand the utility of using a 4th to prepare a 2 and a 1, but why would you ever use the prepare version to prepare a 3rd level spell instead of just preparing the 3rd level spell in a 4th level slot? If you still have to prepare as normally, it's not different than leaving a slot open to prepare the spell later, is it?

[Segev]

Yes, but the first ability covers that fine. The question is why one would ever use the second option.

No, it's not.

The prepare option is, "Prepare more spells than usual."

The retain option is, "Without knowing in advance which of the spells you're preparing you'll need more of, get one more of one of them when you decide you need it."

The prepare option would let you have, IIRC, two more third level spells prepared. The retain option will let you prepare one each of (simplified list) fireball, fly, and haste, and when you later decide you really need a second lightning bolt, you can get it.

[nedz]

It's an old spell. Retain has uses in AD&D which are less relevant in 3.5

[Zombulian]

So two things jump out to me here:
1) It says any spell you cast, not any spell that you had previously prepared and cast. If you cast a spell using a scroll or reading it out of a spell book, you could use this spell to get another casting of it, right?
2) Prepare says that you prepare and cast the spells normally, so this either has to be a spell cast during your preparing time, or you're gonna have to spend at least fifteen minutes preparing those spells in addition to casting this spell for ten minutes.

[JoshuaZ]

No, it's not.

The prepare option is, "Prepare more spells than usual."

The retain option is, "Without knowing in advance which of the spells you're preparing you'll need more of, get one more of one of them when you decide you need it."

The prepare option would let you have, IIRC, two more third level spells prepared. The retain option will let you prepare one each of (simplified list) fireball, fly, and haste, and when you later decide you really need a second lightning bolt, you can get it.

Why not simply then use the first option and prepare one additional spell at that time when you realize you need it? What am I missing?

[Segev]

Why not simply then use the first option and prepare one additional spell at that time when you realize you need it? What am I missing?

If you know you’ll need two fireballs, one fly, and one lightning bolt, using prepare is probably better. If you don’t know which of fireball, lightning bolt, or fly you’ll want more if, retain is better.

Unfortunately, the 10-minute casting time really inhibits the utility; I suspect it was originally meant for Rary (not Mordenkainen as I mistakenly wrote in a prior post) to retain utility spells he regretted preparing fewer of. It’s not very good in combat or with spells whose durations are less than 20 minutes!

Spells were more limited in number in 1e; the flexibility here was useful. In 3e, it’s less pressing so the costs are higher than the payout, typically.

[daremetoidareyo]

Factotum could use it?

[GrayDeath]

Why not simply then use the first option and prepare one additional spell at that time when you realize you need it? What am I missing?

Did you not read my post above?

Let me restate: Its there if you need that Spell NOW.

It doesnt need to be as powerful, as it offers utility in being semi-spontaneous.

Now will that come up often? I think not. But IF it does, its nice to have the option to not say "Oh wait, I need to hide behind that crate for 10 Minutes" but "Sure I can cast another Fireball, lets go!".

[Zancloufer]

Did you not read my post above?

Let me restate: Its there if you need that Spell NOW.

It doesnt need to be as powerful, as it offers utility in being semi-spontaneous.

Now will that come up often? I think not. But IF it does, its nice to have the option to not say "Oh wait, I need to hide behind that crate for 10 Minutes" but "Sure I can cast another Fireball, lets go!".

10 minute casting time. The retain function only works if you just cast a level 0-3 spell AND have 10 minutes to spare. Maybe it's casting time wasn't as bad in earlier versions, but in 3.5 the 10 minute casting time kills 90% of the spells you would want to retain as viable options.

[Miss Disaster]

Mnemonic Enhancer becomes a lot more intriguing when it becomes one of your Spell Mastery spells for Uncanny Forethought. Now it has a Standard Action casting time.

[Segev]

Did you not read my post above?

Let me restate: Its there if you need that Spell NOW.

It doesnt need to be as powerful, as it offers utility in being semi-spontaneous.

Now will that come up often? I think not. But IF it does, its nice to have the option to not say "Oh wait, I need to hide behind that crate for 10 Minutes" but "Sure I can cast another Fireball, lets go!".

To be fair, you DO need to hide behind that crate for 10 minutes to recover that fireball you just cast if you're using the "recover" option. That's why I suspect it's more for utility spells you didn't know you'd need more than one of. You can cast one, know you'll need at least one more, and immediately start casting Rary's mnemonic enhancer to recover it.

It's not all that great in 3.PF. I imagine it was a lot better in 1e and 2e, when spell slots were sparser and you weren't guaranteed even to HAVE 4th level spells by the time you had 4th level spell slots.

[GrayDeath]

I read that as 10 seconds, dont know why.

Must be getting old.

OK, in that case its truly only "But I really need that exact spell another time now"!.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mnemonic Enhancer becomes a lot more intriguing when it becomes one of your Spell Mastery spells for Uncanny Forethought. Now it has a Standard Action casting time.There are other ways to reduce casting time to reasonable levels, such as Sanctum Spell + a spell storing weapon. Or contingency/Craft Contingent Spell. Or a convert-spell-to-power erudite with it as a power known, using Linked Power to automatically manifest the following round. Or tying it to hallow/unhallow and placing it under an oak tree, then carrying an acorn of far travel in your handy haversack. Whenever you pull out the acorn, you get one of your level 0-3 spell slots back.

What other ways are there to reduce mnemonic enhancer's casting time?

[Vaern]

Someone tossed Mnemonic Enhancer at me to make a point when I asked a question about spell effects from consumables affecting familiars and animal companions. I'm going to completely miss the point that he was trying to make and use it as a stepping stone into much more ridiculous shenanigans instead.


A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way.

In the case of scrolls in particular, it functions as though you had actually prepared and cast the spell normally. By RAW you should be able to cast a spell from a scroll and then use Mnemonic Enhancer to capture that spell into a spell slot. This will effectively allow to you prepare spells from other classes' spell lists with sufficient ranks and bonuses in Use Magic Device, so long as you are able to find a scroll of the spell you want. Then, you can have a bit more fun.


If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page. The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would.

You can only copy a scroll into your spellbook if it's in your class spell list. Writing a prepared spell into your spellbook has no such restriction. Want to learn Glibness from the bard spell list? Cast it from a scroll, retain with Mnemonic Enhancer, and then proceed to scribe directly from your spell slot to your spellbook. Want to be able to cure diseases? Have a cleric scribe a scroll of Remove Disease for you. The possibilities are endless!

[Segev]

Someone tossed Mnemonic Enhancer at me to make a point when I asked a question about spell effects from consumables affecting familiars and animal companions. I'm going to completely miss the point that he was trying to make and use it as a stepping stone into much more ridiculous shenanigans instead.



In the case of scrolls in particular, it functions as though you had actually prepared and cast the spell normally. By RAW you should be able to cast a spell from a scroll and then use Mnemonic Enhancer to capture that spell into a spell slot. This will effectively allow to you prepare spells from other classes' spell lists with sufficient ranks and bonuses in Use Magic Device, so long as you are able to find a scroll of the spell you want. Then, you can have a bit more fun.



You can only copy a scroll into your spellbook if it's in your class spell list. Writing a prepared spell into your spellbook has no such restriction. Want to learn Glibness from the bard spell list? Cast it from a scroll, retain with Mnemonic Enhancer, and then proceed to scribe directly from your spell slot to your spellbook. Want to be able to cure diseases? Have a cleric scribe a scroll of Remove Disease for you. The possibilities are endless!

This is glorious.

I suspect most DMs will put their foot down over cross-class spell-learning, but I can still see a use here for actually getting a use out of the scroll before burning it into your spellbook. Use the scroll, then use Rary's mnemonic enhancer to "re"prepare the spell just cast, like you said. If it's a sor/wiz spell, there's no question you can scribe it into the spellbook, and you got to use the scroll for its effect. This can be particularly important for spells with expensive material components; normally, the expense of the component is wasted if you burn the scroll to scribe it into your spellbook.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Someone tossed Mnemonic Enhancer at me to make a point when I asked a question about spell effects from consumables affecting familiars and animal companions. I'm going to completely miss the point that he was trying to make and use it as a stepping stone into much more ridiculous shenanigans instead.

In the case of scrolls in particular, it functions as though you had actually prepared and cast the spell normally. By RAW you should be able to cast a spell from a scroll and then use Mnemonic Enhancer to capture that spell into a spell slot. This will effectively allow to you prepare spells from other classes' spell lists with sufficient ranks and bonuses in Use Magic Device, so long as you are able to find a scroll of the spell you want. Then, you can have a bit more fun.

You can only copy a scroll into your spellbook if it's in your class spell list. Writing a prepared spell into your spellbook has no such restriction. Want to learn Glibness from the bard spell list? Cast it from a scroll, retain with Mnemonic Enhancer, and then proceed to scribe directly from your spell slot to your spellbook. Want to be able to cure diseases? Have a cleric scribe a scroll of Remove Disease for you. The possibilities are endless!Huh. Would that allow you to use a psion's soul crystal power (which anyone can use to "cast" from) to add psionic powers to your list?

I think we just reverse-engineered the arcane version of the convert-spell-to-power erudite.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you use the prepare option on a factotum, are the spells prepared as SLA's? Or are they the kind of prepared that you can write in a spellbook.

[Vaern]

If you use the prepare option on a factotum, are the spells prepared as SLA's? Or are they the kind of prepared that you can write in a spellbook.
I'm not familiar with the class, but from what I can see the ability that allows you to use magic is a spell like ability itself, and the description says both that you are conjuring "something that looks like a spell" and that you can "mimic the spell as a spell-like ability." It seems to indicate in several ways that the magic you're using isn't proper spellcasting by any means, so I wouldn't imagine that even a DM that allows ridiculous rules-legal cheese would see fit to let you put factotum spells into a spellbook.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm not familiar with the class, but from what I can see the ability that allows you to use magic is a spell like ability itself, and the description says both that you are conjuring "something that looks like a spell" and that you can "mimic the spell as a spell-like ability." It seems to indicate in several ways that the magic you're using isn't proper spellcasting by any means, so I wouldn't imagine that even a DM that allows ridiculous rules-legal cheese would see fit to let you put factotum spells into a spellbook.

It does seem to pair well with chameleon tho, so it might be a way to port over other spell lists to your factotum SLA feature

[ciopo]

i interpret "any spell" and "any one spell" differently, so if you casted more than one (3rd level or less) spell in that round, you would retain all of them

The prepare option clearly says "additional", so I consider it to be "extra" slots in any combination of up to 3 levels, you don't have to have free slots and in this regard preparing a 3rd level spell is functionally equivalent to retaining a 3rd level spell, unless you couldn't prepare that 3rd level spell for some reason, I second the metamagic shenanigans interpretation here