Crafting Wands/Staffs w/ "Free" Metamagic: New Method?

[tuesdayscoming]

Hey, Playground!

I've dreamed up a technique for creating spell-trigger items (wands/staffs/scepters) with metamagic WITHOUT increasing the crafting cost of the item. I'd love to get some feedback on 1) whether the technique works as I envision it, 2) how to improve the trick.

Essential Ingredients: Residual Magic (feat, CM 46), Echoing Spell (feat, SoX 134), appropriate item creation feat (using wands in description below), a method of applying MM that explicitly DOESN'T affect spell level (I'll use Naenhoon Illumian in step 6 of the example below)

The Method:
1. Choose the spell that we want to make into a wand
2. Prepare one unmodified version of the spell (Spell Level X) and one Echoing Spell version (Spell Level X+3)
3. Cast the Echoing Version of the spell
4. On the next round, cast the unmodified version of the spell, using Residual Magic's "Lingering Metamagic" effect to apply Echoing Spell (explicitly WITHOUT affecting the spell level)
5. Wait an hour, until Echoing Spell returns both of the spells we've just cast; by my reading, the Residual Magic'd spell will now be an Echoing version of the spell, but will STILL BE IN SPELL LEVEL X, but at a CL four lower than the initial casting
6. Now cast the Spell Level X Echoing Spell, using Naenhoon Illumian's free metamagic effect to apply a MM of your choice (let's say Extend)
7. Wait another hour, and you should get an Echoing, Extended version of the spell back, STILL IN SPELL LEVEL X, but with a CL 8 lower than in the original casting
8. Begin crafting the wand of this modified spell, which expends the slot in question
9. Repeat process for each day of the crafting process

The Result:
If I'm correct, I believe this should allow you to craft, say, a wand of Extended Echoing Mage Armor, for which the spell would STILL COUNT AS A LEVEL ONE SPELL (thus reducing the crafting cost/time and allowing MM'ed options that normally wouldn't fit in a wand).

Further Optimization:
If this works, I think that an optimized version could incorporate Void Disciple level 4 and the Wu Jen spell "Body Outside Body". Using these, we create temporary copies of ourselves who then give us temporary feats (such as the metamagic we want to apply during Step 6); even though we'll lose the temporary feat in a couple of rounds, we'll get back the MM'ed slot in an hour, which we should still be able to use for crafting!

Sorry for the long post! If this is a known exploit, I apologize (but know that I did search around for it before coming here).

Thanks for any and all feedback, Playground!

[icefractal]

Interesting idea, and I think this might work for Spell-Storing weapons and similar things.

The main stumbling block for wands is that there's nothing in the item creation rules that says the item is based in any way on the the particular spell slots you expended when crafting it. In fact, there's some indirect evidence that it isn't - the DC is static rather than based on the crafter.

Also it's not even clear the spell is "cast" during crafting, just "rendered unavailable". The difference potentially matters since you always spend 50x the components when making a wand, but the actual number of days crafting (and thus slots used) varies from 1-60 depending on spell level and CL.

[tuesdayscoming]

Thank you for your response, icefractal! However, I believe that the rules for magic item creation and for wands/staffs specifically DO make it clear that the spell is directly dependent on the spell you expend during each day of prep:

Creating Magic Items states: "Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal." Notably, this is the ONLY reference to metamagic, either in the general crafting rules or in Craft Wand/Staff.

Craft wand states: "The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires." . . . and "The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"

We know that we ARE able to put metamagic'ed versions of spells into wands. Neither set of rules gives us any SPECIFIC instructions on how this is performed. By my reading, then, the only method that COULD work would be the same way as any other use of metamagic: by preparing (for prepared casters) a version of the spell with the appropriately leveled spell slot.

Since our method removes the slot level adjustment, I believe this works.

However, if you interpret the Magic Item Creation rules differently, I'd love to hear your clarification! :smallsmile:

[Pinkie Pyro]

We actually just had a whole thread on this; by RAW, metamagic doesn't alter the cost to create a magic item, because it affects the spell slot you prepare it from, not the actual spell level. (Heighten effects being the obvious exception)

However someone posted a RAW magic item that included a metamagic'd version of the spell, and that did increase costs, so *shrug*.

[tuesdayscoming]

We actually just had a whole thread on this; by RAW, metamagic doesn't alter the cost to create a magic item, because it affects the spell slot you prepare it from, not the actual spell level. (Heighten effects being the obvious exception)

However someone posted a RAW magic item that included a metamagic'd version of the spell, and that did increase costs, so *shrug*.

Oh, fascinating! Could you possibly provide a link to that thread?

Based on the quote on MM in items that I quoted above, I've thought it was pretty clear that MM DID affect the "spell level" factor in item cost, so I'd love to see the logic that led the Playground to conclude otherwise.

I'll go digging for the thread, but would (again) very much appreciate a link if you have it handy :smallsmile:

EDIT: I do understand the distinction you drew (spell level being unaffected for anything but heighten), but I imagine there was more in-depth discussion and would love to see it

[Pinkie Pyro]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618319-magic-item-creation-and-reducing-metamagic-slot

It stems mostly from them being incredibly vague with metamagic on items.

In fairness, if you're letting your players craft magic items using the custom magic item rules, you're already asking for trouble, letting them throw in metamagic for free is really just going to be icing on the cake.

Any sensible DM will probably still make metamagic cost more, and metamagic reducers mattering is table to table, but by RAW, it certainly seems that metamagic doesn't cost more.

that said, the trick isn't finding whether it works by RAW, but compiling a strong enough argument to get your DM to let it work.

[tuesdayscoming]

Thank you for the link, Pinkie Pyro!

The example items from that thread (Circlet of Blasting, Minor vs. Circlet of Blasting, Major) are a strong evidence that, RAI, metamagic'ed item costs would be based on the spell SLOT of the spell, not the actual spell LEVEL. However, I ABSOLUTELY grant that, RAW, you can make a solid argument that MM wouldn't affect item cost.

But... that's also absurdly powerful and, I think, most DM's you tried to use that with would likely break into fits of uncontrollable laughter before throwing books at you.

SO: The method I've proposed is ONLY useful if we go with the interpretation that item cost is based on spell SLOT level. Given that understanding, however, I'd still love to get other's 2cp on whether or not it works (and how to optimize it further).

Thanks again to both who have weighed-in so far!!

[Pinkie Pyro]

Thank you for the link, Pinkie Pyro!

The example items from that thread (Circlet of Blasting, Minor vs. Circlet of Blasting, Major) are a strong evidence that, RAI, metamagic'ed item costs would be based on the spell SLOT of the spell, not the actual spell LEVEL. However, I ABSOLUTELY grant that, RAW, you can make a solid argument that MM wouldn't affect item cost.

But... that's also absurdly powerful and, I think, most DM's you tried to use that with would likely break into fits of uncontrollable laughter before throwing books at you.

SO: The method I've proposed is ONLY useful if we go with the interpretation that item cost is based on spell SLOT level. Given that understanding, however, I'd still love to get other's 2cp on whether or not it works (and how to optimize it further).

Thanks again to both who have weighed-in so far!!

Oh for sure, I'm advocating that by RAW metamagic is free, but I wouldn't even allow that at my table.

[Vaern]

We actually just had a whole thread on this; by RAW, metamagic doesn't alter the cost to create a magic item, because it affects the spell slot you prepare it from, not the actual spell level. (Heighten effects being the obvious exception)

However someone posted a RAW magic item that included a metamagic'd version of the spell, and that did increase costs, so *shrug*.
My own house rule for crafting with metamagic is that the actual spell level is used to determine whether the spell is valid for an item type, while the level of spell slot required to cast the spell sets the cost to craft. For example, extended fly would be considered a third level spell for determining whether it can be made into a potion but a fourth level spell for calculating cost.