Questions on Planar Touchstone and Chameleon

[bean illus]

Planar touchstone levels as if you were a cleric? Yes

Does planar touchstone require casting levels? No

Does it allow any domain choice? Yes

Do you get the domain power, and a slot? Yes

Do you get bonus spells for casting attribute? Idk

Extra slot gives Chameleon 1 slot, but double aptitude means 2 spells if used for a Chameleon slot? Yes

Customize Domain [Magic] and Planar Touchstone allow anyone access to any 8th level spell in the game, at 17th level? For 2 feats?

The combo seems quite a boost to a chameleon's top end.

[Venger]

You do get bonus spells for a high casting ability score.

Your understanding of the interactions between extra slot and planar touchstone are basically accurate. This is a popular choice for chameleons, which is why it's mentioned in the chameleon handbook. What are your questions about how the two things interact?

[bean illus]

You do get bonus spells for a high casting ability score.

Your understanding of the interactions between extra slot and planar touchstone are basically accurate. This is a popular choice for chameleons, which is why it's mentioned in the chameleon handbook. What are your questions about how the two things interact?

Of course. Thank you.
My next questions are about this part.


Reaching higher level casting

Method 1a - Illumian + Planar Touchstone + Extra Slot

Planar TouchstonePlH: Your first stop to higher level casting is The Fortress of Disciplined Enlightenment on the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus. Link yourself there and you gain the granted power of any domain. But what you are after is the higher power, 3 times 1/day you can cast a spell from that domain as if you were a cleric of you level. This qualifies you to take...

Extra SlotCAr: Now that you can cast spells higher than 6th level you can gain an extra slot equal to one level lower than your maximum. You will need to take this a couple times if you want 7th and 8th level casting. Note that this effects both your arcane and divine casting and also you get bonus spells based off your Intelligence/Wisdom.

Improved Sigil (Krau)RoD: While this feat is not necessary it does let you get the spell levels at the same time as a normal caster would. A couple of things to note the spells need to have a verbal component and you can only get to 8th level casting using this as the feat specifies as heighten spell and heighten is limited to 9th level spells. Note that Sanctum SpellCAr cannot achieve this because due to the wording of Planar TouchstonePlH metamagic cannot be applied (there is no actual preparation involved) and Versatile SpellcasterRotD requires actual spell slots.


Planar Touchstone: These spells are not prepared, are they spontaneous?

Extra Slot: Is this piggybacked onto Chameleon casting? Is this a now a Chameleon 7th level spellslot (= 2 spells)? Or is it a Planar Touchstone spell slot (= 1 spell) ?
It seems there's room in the wording for a RAW interpretation that doesn't deny the Chameleon slot.

Improved Sigil (Krau) I don't get it.
I guess I'll just go line by line. I'll snip the pieces i think i understand.

The feat boosts caster level, much like heighten, but with no change to the spell's casting time or spell slot. Do they stack? For what purpose?



Note that Sanctum Spell CAr cannot achieve this because due to the wording of Planar Touchstone PlH metamagic cannot be applied (there is no actual preparation involved) and Versatile Spellcaster RotD requires actual spell slots.


I don't really even understand what's trying to be achieved (beyond planar touchstone and extra slot, which seems to work with just 2 feats).

I do see that metamagic is applied at preparation, and that planar touchstone doesn't prepare.

But spontaneous casters can metamagic ..., but ... which slots aren't slots? The planar domain spontaneous slots? If so, how do they grant bonus spells for high casting stat?



'Improved krau'... does let you get the spell levels at the same time as a normal caster would.


Doesn't Planar Touchstone do that? Which spell levels does this refer to, the Extra Slot?



... you can only get to 8th level casting using this as the feat specifies as heighten spell and heighten is limited to 9th level spells.


I understand neither specifically what's being attempted, nor why this doesn't work.
If heighten spell works to 9th, why doesn't improved krau?

And which slots are we applying improved krau to?

What i think i know: Heighten Spell is actually a spell of a higher level. But you can only cast spells you know, and that's restricted to your actual class level.

Perhaps an order of operations would help me really follow it, after i comprehend what's being done.

[Venger]

You are welcome.

Let's go in order:
planar touchstone: The cleric spells you obtain through the higher-order ability of catalogues of enlightenment are treated "as though you
had prepared the spell normally." They would be available whenever, 1/day, so you could think of them as spontaneous.

extra slot: The point of taking planar touchstone is to get an extra slot at 1 lower than the highest spell level you can cast. Since catalogues of enlightenment uses your character level, it allows you to cast up to 9th level spells at lvl 17, as though you were a cleric, which lets you take extra slot (piggybacking off planar touchstone) giving you an 8th level slot. You then fill these with chameleon spells, and double dip getting an arcane slot and divine slot due to your dual focus.

chameleon slots do not work, first of all, because your foci are not allowed to qualify you for feats, including extra spell, and even if it did, chameleon on its own can only let you cast 6ths, which would give you an extra 5th slot.

improved sigil (krau): they do not stack because since it works like heighten, it's capped at giving you an effective level of 9. This lets you do the trick early since it lets your 8th level spells at character level 15 through planar touchstone count as 9ths. Since 9 is the highest level spell you can cast, you are allowed to take extra slot to obtain an 8 at 15, which is when a normal caster like a wizard gets them.

Planar touchstone's slot is only once a day, so it does not grant you bonus slots for high ability.

order of operations:
1 take planar touchstone. This gives you the higher order ability to cast a cleric spell with your cleric level equal to your character lvl 1/day
2 take improved sigil (krau)
3 attain character level 15. improved sigil (krau) now lets you take the 8th you are casting from planar touchstone and heighten it to a 9th.
4 take extra slot. since the highest spell level you cast is a 9th from improved sigil (krau,) you are allowed to get an extra 8 slot for your chameleon spells. Due to double aptitude, you get one arcane and one divine.

Please let me know if you have any more questions.

[bean illus]

Thanks a lot. You're really helping me a lot.

Ok, i think i almost got it.
As i/we confirm each assumption, the next question narrows towards clarity.


You are welcome.

Let's go in order:
planar touchstone: The cleric spells you obtain through the higher-order ability of catalogues of enlightenment are treated "as though you
had prepared the spell normally." They would be available whenever, 1/day, so you could think of them as spontaneous.


"They"? Or it? Is it only 1 spell per day, from the domain?
Idk why, i thought it was a spell of each level, sorta like divine crusader.

You cast 1 spell, then you have to visit Nirvana again? Or what, never cast the spell? Or casting it but still having the feat counts as having the ability, although uncharged.



extra slot: The point of taking planar touchstone is to get an extra slot at 1 lower than the highest spell level you can cast. Since catalogues of enlightenment uses your character level, it allows you to cast up to 9th level spells at lvl 17, as though you were a cleric, which lets you take extra slot (piggybacking off planar touchstone) giving you an 8th level slot. You then fill these with chameleon spells, and double dip getting an arcane slot and divine slot due to your dual focus.


So, at 17th you're one 9th level spell from planar touchstone domain qualifies extra slot for 1 8th level spell.

Due to the unspecific wording of extra slot, any spell a character knows can be cast, so chameleon is allowed to fill this extra slot with any 8th level spell in the game (if he's got a spellbook, or whatnot).

Then, ... double aptitude is applied to the chameleon slot, that you qualified for with planar touchstone and ambiguous wording in extra slot.



chameleon slots do not work, first of all, because your foci are not allowed to qualify you for feats, including extra spell, and even if it did, chameleon on its own can only let you cast 6ths, which would give you an extra 5th slot.


Right. That's what planar touchstone does.



improved sigil (krau): they do not stack because since it works like heighten, it's capped at giving you an effective level of 9. This lets you do the trick early since it lets your 8th level spells at character level 15 through planar touchstone count as 9ths. Since 9 is the highest level spell you can cast, you are allowed to take extra slot to obtain an 8 at 15, which is when a normal caster like a wizard gets them.


Either through heighten spell, or improved sigil krau, you're highest spell level is now 9th at 15th character level due to planar touchstone's 1 spell per day. Therefore the extra slot can be 8th (in addition to the 1 8th level planar touchstone spell available at 15th).

This can be done at 13th level for 7th level spells, etc.
But you can't stack the 2 heighten sources.



Planar touchstone's slot is only once a day, so it does not grant you bonus slots for high ability.

Oh. Does the 'extra chameleon slot' grant a bonus spell slot?



order of operations:
1 take planar touchstone. This gives you the higher order ability to cast a cleric spell with your cleric level equal to your character lvl 1/day
2 take improved sigil (krau)
3 attain character level 15. improved sigil (krau) now lets you take the 8th you are casting from planar touchstone and heighten it to a 9th.
4 take extra slot. since the highest spell level you cast is a 9th from improved sigil (krau,) you are allowed to get an extra 8 slot for your chameleon spells. Due to double aptitude, you get one arcane and one divine.

Please let me know if you have any more questions.

Ok. I read it twice, and talked myself through it. I think i get most of it.

Through all this you get only 1 9th level spell per taking of planar touchstone. This allows extra slot to grant bonus spells due to high ability score. Double aptitude then modifies that spell slot, including possible bonus spells for a high ability score.

Aeshkrau activates when an illumian reaches character level 2 Since +5 inherent ability bonuses, +5 wish spell, +6 enhancement item, and chameleon's ability boon's +6 competence bonus all stack, then an extra slot could net six 8th (or 7th) level spells, easily.

Am i right yet?


Got another minute? You might know this.
Can a similar trick be used to give a cleric/chameleon extra turning on 2 pools? I've heard chameleon can fuel travel devotion and divine metamagic.

[Venger]

It is only one spell/day, but you have 3 uses of this higher order ability before you must visit the touchstone again. Hence the use of "they." Part of the point of using this trick is getting the extra slot, so you never actually have to cast your cleric spell. It just sits there providing you with 8ths.

Yes, you're grasping how extra slot interacts with this correctly.

Right, that's what heighten or imp sigil krau does.

You do not get extra slots based on a high ability score at 8th after taking extra slot, because it gives you a single extra slot. You get one arcane and one divine per day due to double aptitude no matter how high your ability score is.

You've basically got it but planar touchstone grants you 3 uses of your 9th level cleric spell, but you are not going to use them to fuel the trick.

You don't need to get your int or wis that high because extra slot does not give you bonus for high ability scores.

I do know this. Chameleon already has two pools. Chameleon's mimic class feature can be used to power any diving feats such as travel devotion or dmm, it just cannot be used to qualify for those feats, so if you were a cleric, you would be qualifying with cleric's turning, not chameleon's.

[bean illus]

Ok. I finally got it.

The 9ths could be used for luck domain miracle, 3 times in a day. But if you use 1, you might as well use all 3, because then you will have activated the higher power, and it'll need recharged.

I see an argument that the ability to cast 9ths still exist, even thogh it needs recharged.

I suppose the 3rd miracle could be to return to Nirvana, and the 1st miracle be returning to the adventuring party ... . You'd still have one 9th to fuel extra slot, and you could cast it every day, as long as the other 2 got you to Nirvana and back. Yes? No?

[Venger]

No, it is still limited to once a day, as we've discussed. You do not need to recharge the higher order ability until you have expended all 3 uses.

There's no argument needed. You have the ability to cast 9ths, even if you're out of uses, same as a cleric who's expended all their 9th level spell slots. That said, it may be advantageous to have whatever that 9th is available in an emergency like the luck domain miracle once your level is high enough.

[bean illus]

No, it is still limited to once a day, as we've discussed. You do not need to recharge the higher order ability until you have expended all 3 uses.

Ahhh! Three uses of once per day, not one use of three per day.



There's no argument needed. You have the ability to cast 9ths, even if you're out of uses, same as a cleric who's expended all their 9th level spell slots. That said, it may be advantageous to have whatever that 9th is available in an emergency like the luck domain miracle once your level is high enough.

Yeah, that makes sense.


So it's 'only' 2 spells per extra slot feat, but with Chameleon's already not unimpressive early access to 7th-9th level spells, 2 extra slots and a pocketfull of miracles can go a long way.

Thanks SO much!

[Venger]

Yes, that is correct. Looks like you've got it. Happy to help.

[bean illus]

A few more questions, if anyone can. These questions are not Chameleon specific.

What's the quickest and easiest way to a plane and back? This doesn't need to be particularly cheesy, just standard access (though a trick would be acceptable too).

I'm seeing the spell Plane Shift, which is a 5th level cleric spell, available at 9th level cleric. It does have to chance to land you 500 miles away, which is farther than the Teleport spells 100 mile limit (which is also cleric 5, on the Travel Domain).

Fly is a 3rd level spell (on the Travel Domain), but the speed is only 60', and the duration only 1 minute/level.

Obviously, 7th level (greater teleport) fixes this, but waiting till 13th+ level to expend all/most of your high level slots ... probably isn't the best way.

Should i start a thread just for this question?

[Venger]

I assume you're asking about the quickest way to reach a specific point on a plane. Is that right? So basically you want methods of fast travel to get you to your spot once you've rolled for miss chance.

Do you just want options for cleric, or is anything game? Cleric's got things like wind walk as 6ths, but other characters might be able to convey you there more quickly such as with overland flight as a 5th.

Teleport's limit isn't 100 miles, it's 100 miles per caster level, so anyone who has access to the spell can correct for even a 100 result on a plane shift roll.

Or are you looking for the earliest possible access to plane shift in general just as an academic question? That would be a level 4 jaunter which can come online as early as level 8, one level before a cleric has access to plane shift.

[bean illus]

I assume you're asking about the quickest way to reach a specific point on a plane. Is that right? So basically you want methods of fast travel to get you to your spot once you've rolled for miss chance.

Do you just want options for cleric, or is anything game? Cleric's got things like wind walk as 6ths, but other characters might be able to convey you there more quickly such as with overland flight as a 5th.

Teleport's limit isn't 100 miles, it's 100 miles per caster level, so anyone who has access to the spell can correct for even a 100 result on a plane shift roll.


Those are good answers, but the clarification on teleport fixes my problem easiest.

Btw, for anyone reading, the feat Personal Touchstone grants a doubling of the Planar Touchstone higher power. Which, as i understand gives you now 6 spells of one domain.
Combined with 2 plane shifts, and possibly 2 teleports, allows a 2-4 round turnaround to replenish your 6 Planar Touchstone spells.

I don't see why this can't be done multiple times per day. Do you?

Do the planar touchstone spells have to be different levels? Or can they all be the same level? Would this allow a cheese to miracle yourself a +5 inherent bonus in every ability?

[Venger]

You could visit your personal touchstone if you wanted to, but remember, the higher-order ability only lets you cast a spell from your chosen domain 1/day, so you wouldn't be expending all 6 of your spells in one day. It would take a minimum of 6 days to be out of spells.

As far as what level the spell has to be, you may select any level you have access to based on your level and wisdom score.

Miracle cannot grant an inherent bonus to ability scores. You're thinking of wish, which is one of the things miracle cannot replicate.

You can always just pick the envy domain instead of the luck domain, since wish is its 9th level domain spell. However, since you are limited to casting the spell 1/day, you could not cast it 5 times in rapid succession for a +5 inherent bonus.

[bean illus]

You could visit your personal touchstone if you wanted to, but remember, the higher-order ability only lets you cast a spell from your chosen domain 1/day, so you wouldn't be expending all 6 of your spells in one day. It would take a minimum of 6 days to be out of spells.

Oh yeah, you said that already.



As far as what level the spell has to be, you may select any level you have access to based on your level and wisdom score.

Miracle cannot grant an inherent bonus to ability scores. You're thinking of wish, which is one of the things miracle cannot replicate.

Uhmm, Tomes list miracle as a possible spell for their crafting?



You can always just pick the envy domain instead of the luck domain, since wish is its 9th level domain spell. However, since you are limited to casting the spell 1/day, you could not cast it 5 times in rapid succession for a +5 inherent bonus.

Envy domain .... hmmm maybe ...

Thanks, again.

[Venger]

I see. So you meant you planned to use miracle and craft one more tomes. That's certainly feasible.

I thought you were implying that an inherent +1 to an ability was a listed use of miracle. Much like wish, it has a specific list of things it can definitely do, and that's not one of them. Since wish is also a 9, it's probably reasonable to say it's one of the additional effects you can ask for, but it'd cost you the 5000xp.

You're welcome. Happy to help.