Cleric from scratch

[Renx]

Starting up a new campaign soon, and I'm looking for a few pointers where to go with a Cleric. I don't want anything overpowered, but as our group looks like it's going to be short of a Wizard, I'll have to double as part-time Batman.

The game will be mostly Core, with possible reasonable additions (meaning everything has to be OK'd by the GM). As I said, we'll start from scratch with regular exp progression, with no clue as to magical item income or availability, so are the different Craft feats worth it? I'm probably taking Extend at level 3, so I'll be burning up a lot of metamagic rods ;)

Any good PRCs I should aim for (I'm guessing we'll never cap level 10 or 15) or spells I should really push for? As for domains, I'm waiting to get info on our campaign world, but since we're short a wizard, I'm guessing one will be Travel for eventual Teleport.

[Hario]

well sticking to Core you only have 1 PrC that is available for the cleric and that is Hierophant, and that just plain is bad, so don't do it. You can be a cleric of an ideal, some DMs hate the idea, I think its fine. Magic and Travel are probably the best core domains to choose if you want to emulate an arcane spellcaster. Even if you were a cleric of Boccob, he doesn't have Travel, though trickery is fairly good too. Stick to straight cleric, don't go Mystic theurge, its a waste of caster levels and spell progression, especially in core.

[Keld Denar]

Starting up a new campaign soon, and I'm looking for a few pointers where to go with a Cleric. I don't want anything overpowered, but as our group looks like it's going to be short of a Wizard, I'll have to double as part-time Batman.

The game will be mostly Core, with possible reasonable additions (meaning everything has to be OK'd by the GM). As I said, we'll start from scratch with regular exp progression, with no clue as to magical item income or availability, so are the different Craft feats worth it? I'm probably taking Extend at level 3, so I'll be burning up a lot of metamagic rods ;)

Any good PRCs I should aim for (I'm guessing we'll never cap level 10 or 15) or spells I should really push for? As for domains, I'm waiting to get info on our campaign world, but since we're short a wizard, I'm guessing one will be Travel for eventual Teleport.

So, sounds like you want to go primarily a caster type cleric rather than a melee powah house cleric. Feats to go for would be craft wonderous, extend, divine spell power(CD), augmented healing(CD), extra turning(maybe), and maybe Sun Disciple (depending on domains, see below) (CD).

As far as pclasses, they can be affected by what domains you choose. Radiant Servent of (Insert God Here) (CD) is the BEST cleric pclass, but requires the cleric to have the Sun domain. Its not a bad domain, especially when undead are involved. The pclass makes up for this by giving a bonus domain at 5th level, which can be any other domain on the gods list. This depends on what pantheon your DM uses though. The class gives full casting, full turning, and a host of other neat abilities. You might look into the healing domain, because Radiant Servant gives you bonuses to casting domain healing spells.

You specified wanting the Travel domain. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to get Sun and Travel in a god. Think of him as a disciple who teaches anywhere the sun shines, or seeks to spread The Light (TM) across the whole world. Then, with Radiant Servant, you could pick up another domain at CL11, which could be anything else you think this god might like, say....luck, celerity, destiny, time, healing, etc)

Travel Devotion (CC) gives you the abilty to gain movement as swift actions. This is all kinds of useful, especially if you go with light armor. You can dance all around the battlefield healing and buffing as needed.

Craft Wonderous Item is pretty key. The most useful items you will craft are your +wis neck and pearls of power. In the DMG, PoPs require CL17 to craft, but this is completely ludicris, because 1st level pearls would not exist. See if your DM will make Pearl crafting level dependant, like on levels where you get access to approriate level spells (1st for 1st, 3rd for 2nd, 5th for 3rd, etc). Then load up on Pearls, especially PoP1s. This will be your primary source of non-combat healing (Lesser Vigor). Just cast and recall until the party is healed or you run out of pearls. You only have to memorize one. PoP3s are important for casting Magic Vestiment, your primary AC buff, on all party members. PoP4s for Greater Magic Weapon. More PoPs will give you more daily endurance for spellcasting. This is a good thing.

Sun Devotion (CD) will be key if you don't get the Sun domain. It allows you to burn 2 turns to create a greater turning effect similar to what is granted by the sun domain. This is very important if you think there will be undead (there usually are). Undead are usually very very strong for their CRs, so greater turning will allow you to dust even the stronger undead.

If you have any more questions, just ask.

Good Luck and Good Gaming

[Shishnarfne]

Generally, if you put your mind to your spell selection, most cleric builds can take care of themselves. Core-only there aren't that many feats that are absolutely necessary. If you're playing low-level Skill Focus (Concentration) is usually worth it. Take Power Attack if you plan on fighting melee much. A few metamagic will help eventually (Quicken, Silent, Still, mostly). Spell Penetration (and Greater) if you have SR issues (although the cleric generally can do nicely with buffs and heals).
[Edit: I can't believe I forgot Extend Spell so that your buffs last twice as long, though a ninja beat me to it. Silent and Still Spells are emergency metamagics. Also, if you plan on having time to make items, in addition to Craft Wondrous Item, Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll allow you to prepare extra uses of emergency restorative spells (e.g. Potions of Remove Blindness/Deafness, extra scrolls of Restoration)]

Really, since clerics don't need to prepare their Cure spells (unless they're negative energy types), it's mostly a matter of choosing which spells you think most likely to help on a given day. Generally, I prepare buff/recovery spells over damage: there just aren't that many cleric damage spells that are very powerful (except harm).

If you don't have a party wizard, spells like "Greater Magic Weapon", "Protection from Energy", and "Dispel Magic" will have to come from you. Unfortunately for the party fighter, the best buffs (e.g. Divine Power, Righteous Might) are self-only, and using these lets you outfight him, so I wouldn't use these too often.

Core-only, there really aren't any prestige classes that are really worth it. Thaumaturgist has nice flavor for some, but I'm not a huge fan of the Summon Monster series.

Travel Domain may be the most useful domain in the PhB: Freedom of Movement ability and teleport spells. If you go with PhB deities, choosing Protection or Luck as another domain won't hurt.
Really, domains are there to help customize your character, so pick ones that satisfy one of two conditions: they contain spells you would either always cast (not just prepare, actually cast, as your domain slot cannot be burned for a cure) or would not normally be able to cast at that level; they have a special granted ability that you would use frequently.

If your DM loves the undead, Extra Turning and Improved Turning make decent feats (depending on whether your DM loves the zombie hordes or the big scary zombies). The Sun Domain is just extra gravy for a Turning-based cleric (Radiant Servant of Pelor and Master of Radiance are two Prestige classes based off of these ideas), but I'll provide a warning: if you use greater turning combined with improved turning to one-shot your DM's undead BBEG, that he was sure was "turn-proof", your DM may not be very happy.

[Edit: recent thread that might help Low-level cleric advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61518)]

[Tyger]

<snipped the good advice out>

Craft Wonderous Item is pretty key. The most useful items you will craft are your +wis neck and pearls of power. In the DMG, PoPs require CL17 to craft, but this is completely ludicris, because 1st level pearls would not exist. See if your DM will make Pearl crafting level dependant, like on levels where you get access to approriate level spells (1st for 1st, 3rd for 2nd, 5th for 3rd, etc). Then load up on Pearls, especially PoP1s.

<snipped the rest of the good advice out>


All really good advice that Luss posted, but one things requires a bit of clarification. The CL listed with the Pearls of Power (CL17) and any other magic item is not the CL required to make the item. From the SRD, the CL is:


Caster Level
The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form "CL x," where "CL" is an abbreviation for caster level and "x" is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Just a clarification.

So no worries there. A level three wizard / cleric / whatever, can craft Pearls of Power so long as they meet the prerequisites, which is the part where it describes what you need to have in order to craft the item. Which, in the case of Pearls of Power is the Craft Wondrous Feat, and the ability to cast spells of the level the Pearl in question allows you to recall. So a level three Cleric (who could first get the feat) could already craft level one and two Pearls.

[Keld Denar]

So no worries there. A level three wizard / cleric / whatever, can craft Pearls of Power so long as they meet the prerequisites, which is the part where it describes what you need to have in order to craft the item. Which, in the case of Pearls of Power is the Craft Wondrous Feat, and the ability to cast spells of the level the Pearl in question allows you to recall. So a level three Cleric (who could first get the feat) could already craft level one and two Pearls.

Righto

In that case, take Craft Wonderous asap and get crafty.

5 PoP1s would cost 2500 g and 100 xp, and about a week. This effectively DOUBLES your 1st level spell casting capacity for a 3rd level character. If needed, thats 6 lesser vigors for out-of-combat healing, or a protection from evil for the whole party. Because domain slots are also prepared spells, a PoP can be used to recall it. This gets more mileage out of your normally once a day domain spells (such as fly from travel).

[Telonius]

You mention that your party is without a Batman. If you're planning on casting from scrolls often, the Magic domain might be of interest. You wouldn't actually need Wizard levels to meet some UMD prerequisites. If you go the UMD route, I'd also suggest going Cloistered Cleric (if your DM allows it) to get a few extra skill points to use on UMD and knowledge skills. On that note, is Archivist an option for you? (Probably not, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.)

[Renx]

Hmm... good points y'all. I dunno about domains, especially since Magic would give me Identify with no material component (PHB specifically states an arcane material component, and a Cleric's spell would or should be divine), Nystul's magic aura etc. while the Sun domain doesn't give all that much except for the PRC. Of course, Travel will be nigh-useless until level 7 anyway, so... well, if I could push through a bonus Domain, Magic+Sun+Travel would be really, really nice, but again at the cost of a feat.

And no, I don't mean to be a melee powerhouse. I know clerics can dish out damage better than a fighter, but I just want to make the party work. I'm thinking about a cleric from the frozen north, and will try to push Frostburn through for neat spells like Ice Slick (think divine grease), Shivering Touch (and lesser)... spear as a weapon etc. The bad part is, of course, none of the Frostburn deities have Travel or Sun domain.

I strongly doubt that the GM would give out Pearls of Power. Also, isn't Vigor a non-Core spell?

[greenknight]

As a Cleric, you normally won't need Teleport, since at higher levels you can get that from items (Boots of Teleportation, for example), and you have Word of Recall and Wind Walk on your spell list. So I'd suggest going for Magic and Trickery as your Domains, and get a Neutral alignment so you can Rebuke rather than Turn Undead. The advantages of that are that you might get a couple of skeletons to serve you as cannon fodder, rebuked undead cower rather than run away (and you get a bonus to attack them), and when you get to a high enough level to cast Righteous Might, your DR is x/Good, which is normally much more useful than the normal DR x/Evil.

If you can access Complete Divine (which you'd need for Radiant Servant of Pelor), I suggest you work towards the Divine Oracle PrC (just take 4 levels) and then Contemplative (9 levels is enough, unless you want to become an Outsider). Between them, they allow you to access the Oracle Domain plus two more, and give you a huge number of extra benefits. If you do this, your ability to Turn/Rebuke Undead will soon fall far behind your level, so consider taking some feats from Complete Divine which use Turn/Rebuke Undead attempts for something else. While Vigor is non-Core, it is in Complete Divine, so you can use it if you have access to that book.

If you are allowed to use Frostburn, you might want to consider the Cold Domain, but Magic and Trickery are still better, IMO. In any event, the spells on the regular Cleric list should still be available to you (which includes Ice Slick and Shivering Touch), and the book explains that can still choose the regular PHB dieties, so I'd go with Boccob.

[Renx]

If you are allowed to use Frostburn, you might want to consider the Cold Domain, but Magic and Trickery are still better, IMO. In any event, the spells on the regular Cleric list should still be available to you (which includes Ice Slick and Shivering Touch), and the book explains that can still choose the regular PHB dieties, so I'd go with Boccob.

I don't think I'd go for the Cold domain, but don't I need Sun for Radiant Servant of Pelor?

//Edit1: Also:
Bosco: Give a big hand for Boccob, the uncaring!
Audience: *takes the hint*

[Keld Denar]

Yes, you do need the Sun domain for Radiant Servant. It really isn't a bad domain, since the domain power is generally considered OP. It also gives Endure Elements as a 1st level domain spell, which would be good in a frozen setting. Searing Light at level 3 is a blasty type spell, and it scales poorly on anything other than undead, which you should be dusting outright with greater turnings. Later on though, Fire Seeds Sunburst are some of the best scaling spells as far as damage goes. Sunbursts AoE radius is huge, more than double fireballs IIRC. It also has the benefit of dusting undead (redundant?) if they fail the save.

What do you mean that travel is useless until 7?
a) the domain ability (freedom) is probably the MOST amazing domain ability (only better than luck because luck is reproduceable by other means)
b) 1st level spell Longstrider - Cast it once or twice a day at mid levels for an all day 10' increase in movement speed. Never doubt the power of movement speed.
c) 3rd level spell Fly - This is a CLUTCH spell for you. Since you don't have a wizard, its the only way your low level party will be able to navigate large obsticles. Cast it on your party beafcake and make him/her ferry you across rivers, up cliffs, over pits, and around other difficult situations. Plus, since it is now on your spell list, you can SCRIBE SCROLLS of fly. Tons of them. Enough to make your entire party fly in a pinch. This is all kinds of useful.

I dunno, If I was you, I'd look into something kind of like this:

Human NG
1) Cleric 1 Travel-Sun *Extra Turning *Scribe Scroll (h)
2) Cleric 2
3) Cleric 3 *Craft Wonderous Item
4) Cleric 4
5) Cleric 5
6) Cleric 6 Divine Spell Power
7) RS
8) RS
9) RS *Extend Spell
10) RS
11) RS *Any Domain (celerity? destiny? healing?)
12) RS or Sacred Exorcist *Any Feat
....
20) Profit

Extra Turning is required for RS access. Scribe Scroll is your human bonus feat. 7th level is the earliest you can access RS from a straight class cleric.

This progression would give you full turning, full casting, 3 domains, all light spells heightened, all domain healing spells empowered for free, +2 will saves to all your friends, Immunity to diseases, and UTILITY.

Scribe Scroll and Craft Wonderous let you plan for every occassion. If your DM doesn't want to give out PoPs, craft them. Scribe Scrolls of Remove Paralysis, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Lesser Restoration, FLY, and anything else that isn't a spell you prep every day, isn't too level dependant, and isn't a blasty-type spell. Craft Wonderous includes stat items for WIS and CHA (and see if your DM will let you reslot CON to say....a belt), a Vest of Resistance, Phylactery of Undead Turning, an Orange Ioun Stone, and as many PoP1-4s as you can spit out.

Cold Domain is not highly recommended. Its granted power is meh, and most of its spells are Evocation style blasty, not something most clerics focus on.

Destiny would be a good bonus domain to pick up. The granted power is a fate type reroll, use it on you or a friend once a day. Very nice. The spells are pretty good.

Luck would give you a personal reroll, not as nice as Destiny, but allows you to hoard it for yourself. The spells are ok.

Celerity grants you 10' extra movement as long as you are in light armor. This is really really really good if you wear light armor (up to Mithril Breastplate) The spells are pretty good too.

Healing gives you a +1 CL for healing spells, which is ok, as long as you haven't already reached the cap for a given spell (CLW caps at 1d8+5, etc). The big thing is that with Radiant Servant, all spells you cast from the domain slots are automatically empowered (and later maximized and then both). This make combat healing more powerful, but is otherwise pretty meh.

There are other good domains, but these are the ones I felt fit nicely in the sun-travel wanderer type portfolio. Which ones you pick depend on your god (and your DM to give you a pantheon). Talk to him, he'll give you the most info.

EDIT: Unfortunately, material components port across the arcane/divine boundry. The only thing that wouldn't would be an Divine Focus (although a regular Focus item still would) So your Magic domain Identify would still cost 100g worth of pearls to cast, arcane, divine, or elsewise.

[OneWinged4ngel]

((Edit: Removed))

[Keld Denar]

(Also removed)

[greenknight]

I don't think I'd go for the Cold domain, but don't I need Sun for Radiant Servant of Pelor?

Yes, you'd also need to worship Pelor. Which means when you create your character, you'd be restricted to the Glory, Good, Healing, Strength and Sun Domains. And if you really want to go with RSoP, you should probably choose Healing and Sun. For your bonus Domain from RS, you're restricted to those and the Purification Domain (lussmanj is wrong about saying it's any Domain you choose). Those aren't the best Domain choices if you want to substitute for an Arcane caster.

So my advice is forget all about RSoP - it's really not such a great PrC unless it's an undead heavy campaign and you want your Cleric to really focus on that aspect of the game. But in the same book you find RSoP, you'll find some PrC's that are really good for an Arcane type Cleric - Divine Oracle and Contemplative. Divine Oracle is a relatively easy to qualify for class which gives you the Oracle Domain, and in four levels you get a Scry bonus, Prescient Sense (essentially evasion, and it works with all types of armor), Trap Sense +1, Divination Enhancement (more reliable divinations) and Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC). Nine levels of Contemplative gives you two bonus Domains of your choice (that's still restricted by diety and alignment - but this class works with any diety and alignment), immunity to poisons and diseases, spell resistance (equal to class level + 15), eternal body (no more aging penalties), slippery mind (an extra Will save) and some self healing ability.

So, my advice would be to be True Neutral, worship Boccob and Rebuke Undead. Take the Magic and Trickery Domains, since they'll give you a lot of arcane caster goodness. Magic's especially useful since then you can use any wand with an Arcane (wizard) spell of 4th level or lower. That's a whole lot of very good spells right there. Later on, you'll also be able to use Arcane (wizard) staffs, which lets you access even more powerful Arcane spells. You'll also be able to use Arcane (wizard) scrolls, but I don't consider that as useful since you'll still have an Arcane spell failure chance and it's more level dependant.


Unfortunately, material components port across the arcane/divine boundry. The only thing that wouldn't would be an Divine Focus (although a regular Focus item still would) So your Magic domain Identify would still cost 100g worth of pearls to cast, arcane, divine, or elsewise.

You wouldn't have a reference for that would you?

[Shishnarfne]

I'm actually going to argue against Rebuke Undead: yes, generally rebuking undead is at least as useful (if not more useful) than turning them. However, the ones you get to control are going to be tossed aside in a couple hits anyways, and Rebuke Undead comes as a package deal with spontaneous casting of "Inflict" spells.

So, it's perfectly legitimate to go that road, if you're willing to prepare all of your cure spells ahead of time. Generally, for a party of adventurers, unless there's another Cleric/Favored Soul (etc.) on primary heal duty, having someone who can spontaneous dish out healing is very beneficial (much more than being able to redirect lower HD skeletons at your foes, to my mind).

[Keld Denar]

Yes, you'd also need to worship Pelor. Which means when you create your character, you'd be restricted to the Glory, Good, Healing, Strength and Sun Domains. And if you really want to go with RSoP, you should probably choose Healing and Sun. For your bonus Domain from RS, you're restricted to those and the Purification Domain (lussmanj is wrong about saying it's any Domain you choose). Those aren't the best Domain choices if you want to substitute for an Arcane caster.

Somewhat correct. It specifically says in Radiant Servant that it CAN be adapted to any setting with any god that includes Sun in its portfolio. (Same thing for Shining Blade of Heironious, and all the other god-specific pclasses) IF the OP is not playing in Greyhawk or a campaign that doesn't include the core gods, then the DM makes up the pantheon. With a little work with the player, they could work out a god that would combine the features he's looking for, be appropriate for the setting, and would be fun to play.


You wouldn't have a reference for that would you?

No, but material components don't stop becoming material components just because a divine caster is casting rather than an arcane. Especially expensive ones. The force domain gives access to Force Cage, but I'd say the caster still needs 1500g in gems to pay the price. An arcane caster can take the feat Arcane Disciple (something) to gain access to Raise Dead, but would still need 5000g in diamond dust to cast it. Saying otherwise is pretty much breaking the rules. I'm sure there are spells that are both arcane and divine that have costly material components that are the same, but I'm AFB. The reason I mentioned Divine Focii is that the focus is usually the cleric's holy symbol. Even this could be ported over to say that an arcane caster with the Arcane Disciple feat must aquire a holy symbol for the god granting him the domain, and present that holy symbol forth when casting any spell from that domain that requires a DF.

[Renx]

No, but material components don't stop becoming material components just because a divine caster is casting rather than an arcane. Especially expensive ones. The force domain gives access to Force Cage, but I'd say the caster still needs 1500g in gems to pay the price. *snip*

Well, I was just expressing a hopeful sentiment based on the fact that in some PHB spells it says "Material Component" and in others "Arcane Material Component"

[greenknight]

I'm actually going to argue against Rebuke Undead

You're right, but healing in battle is usually a bad idea - in most cases, it's tactically better to take out the one's causing the damage. After battle, you can use the Vigor spells, or Heal, both of which usually work better than a Cure spell, but neither of which can be cast spontaneously. However, in an emergency, you could cast a Cure spell from a scroll or wand, or you could take the Spontaneous Healer Feat from Complete Divine.

On the other hand, Rebuking Undead usually gives you a few minions who can be used to trigger traps, spring ambushes, and help out in a fight. And when they are destroyed, they're normally fairly easy to replace. The worst thing is that if you're fighting a Cleric with a better Rebuke Undead ability than yours (and that will be most of them at higher levels), your minions might well be turned against you. Still, by then they will have served their main purpose (which would be to help shield you so you can get to those levels), and you should be taking advantage of the other big advantage Rebuking Undead gives you - Righteous Might with DR x/Good, rather than DR x/Evil.


Somewhat correct. It specifically says in Radiant Servant that it CAN be adapted to any setting with any god that includes Sun in its portfolio. (Same thing for Shining Blade of Heironious, and all the other god-specific pclasses) IF the OP is not playing in Greyhawk or a campaign that doesn't include the core gods, then the DM makes up the pantheon.

Maybe. But the OP did say it was a mostly Core game, which means it's reasonable to assume the Core Gods exist. Even if they didn't, any adaptation of RSoP which stayed true to the PrC's concept would require the character take the Sun Domain, and would probably benefit strongly from having Healing as the second Domain.


No, but material components don't stop becoming material components just because a divine caster is casting rather than an arcane. Especially expensive ones. The force domain gives access to Force Cage, but I'd say the caster still needs 1500g in gems to pay the price.

No they don't, and I'm glad you mentioned Forcecage because it's an excellent demonstration of why your argument is wrong. If you look up Identify, you'll notice it specifies an Arcane Material Component, even though Identify is included in the Cleric spell list through one of the Core Domains. But when you look at Forcecage, it's listed as just a Material Component. Notice the difference?

[Keld Denar]

Maybe. But the OP did say it was a mostly Core game, which means it's reasonable to assume the Core Gods exist. Even if they didn't, any adaptation of RSoP which stayed true to the PrC's concept would require the character take the Sun Domain, and would probably benefit strongly from having Healing as the second Domain.

I guess we should ask the OP (he seems active in his own thread) about what pantheon would be used. I agree, if core pantheon is used, then only Pelor (and actually Elhona) have the Sun Domain.

The Healing domain abilities from the class are actually only moderately good, as I discribed above, because they only deal with domain spells, which is only a small few of the spells you will probably be prepping in domain slots, especially if you also have Travel.

The main advantage of RSoP is it is one of the few Pclasses that lose NOTHING. Full casting, full turning, same BAB and save progression. Therefore, if you can fit Sun into your build, there is NO reason not to take it. Turning does become a little less effective at higher levels, although you can easily keep up with Greater Turnings and by spending a little of your standard wealth by level on a couple of key items (Phylactery of Undead Turning is HUGE...4 level gain). With Craft Wonderous, those items are even more affordable. Turn undead has a huge impact at almost all levels too, because at low levels, a shadow or wraith is a deadly encounter, and a Sun domain cleric can end it in under 6 seconds.

Rebuke Undead falls behind Turning much faster. Since there is no "Greater Rebuking", you can only command things with HD that are 1/2 your level. Also, there are no "Phylacteries of Undead Rebuking" so bumping your rebuking level by other means is difficult. Granted, the Righeous Might thing is a nice perk, but that's primarily a Clericzilla spell, and he said he wanted to focus more on casting.



No they don't, and I'm glad you mentioned Forcecage because it's an excellent demonstration of why your argument is wrong. If you look up Identify, you'll notice it specifies an Arcane Material Component, even though Identify is included in the Cleric spell list through one of the Core Domains. But when you look at Forcecage, it's listed as just a Material Component. Notice the difference?

Hmmm....looks like I stand corrected. Oh well, not the first time, probably not the last /concede.

[Kaelik]

The main advantage of RSoP is it is one of the few Pclasses that lose NOTHING. Full casting, full turning, same BAB and save progression. Therefore, if you can fit Sun into your build, there is NO reason not to take it.

Might want to check out that Hit Die a little closer.

[Keld Denar]

Might want to check out that Hit Die a little closer.

Oh....right. Slight oversight.

In other news, its IS interesting to note that Radiant Servants gain proficiency with ALL martial weapons. So, being a devotee to light and helping others all of a sudden requires training with greataxes. This was probably a typo that made it through WotCs seamless editing process. Oh well, when life gives you halberds, you swing em at your enemies!

[Renx]

Well, just had the first talk session with the DM. Apparently we'll be getting a thief and a ranger (newbies), a duskblade, two other players (probably) and me. Still no wizard. The DM is cool tho, basically "as long as you know what your character can do, 's all good", ie no huge powerhouses and NO wrangling about rules in mid-game. Other than that, pretty much everything goes. We'll be mostly keeping track of our own characters and focusing on role play (gasp!). I got access to full crystal keep spell lists and feats, so anything goes.

If we won't get a wizard, I'll try to push for Sun+Travel+Magic. I know it's powerful, but with no wizard we'll need every edge we get. Too powerful? Opinions?

Stat spread 14,15,17,9,12,15. Okay, where does the 17 go? :smallbiggrin:

At this point I basically want to get the optimizing done and start planning on the character itself. I'm leaning heavily towards the frozen north as a birthplace. How did I get to where I am now? Simple, my Gawd came to me and told me to up and leave. After a few divinations as to where, here I am. Clichéd? Sure. Works? Of course! Age mid-20s, might go for low charisma or dex due to frostbite. Now for the feat... Able Learner? A combat feat? A Frostbite feat? Extra turning? Exalted turning? Radiant whatever (basically the Sun domain greater turning for 2 turning attempts)?

//Edit1: The DM is a real oldschool type, D&D 1st ed and forwards. He didn't like the idea of crafting items, so that's mostly out. I'm guessing 2nd ed style questing for certain magic items or rely on random drops.

[greenknight]

I guess we should ask the OP (he seems active in his own thread) about what pantheon would be used. I agree, if core pantheon is used, then only Pelor (and actually Elhona) have the Sun Domain.

And equally importantly, only Pelor qualifies for RSoP if you're talking Core dieties.


The Healing domain abilities from the class are actually only moderately good, as I discribed above, because they only deal with domain spells, which is only a small few of the spells you will probably be prepping in domain slots, especially if you also have Travel.

I agree with you on that, but unless you have the Healing Domain (and prep spells for it), you completely lose out on the benefit of 3 of the class given special abilities, including the class capstone ability. You only gain 9 extra features compared to the Cleric class, and you're dumping 1/3 of them.


The main advantage of RSoP is it is one of the few Pclasses that lose NOTHING.

Yes, but it also has very strict entry requirements. The character must be a specific alignment (NG only), must worship Pelor (meaning the character is restricted to choosing some relatively weak Domains), must have the Extra Turning Feat, must take the Sun Domain. That's in addition to having relatively minor skill requirements. Even if you adapt the PrC to another setting, if the adaptation remains true to the spirit of the PrC, you'll face similar requirements.


Full casting, full turning, same BAB and save progression. Therefore, if you can fit Sun into your build, there is NO reason not to take it.

In an Undead heavy campaign, RSoP is probably the best PrC around. And if you want to play a traditional Cleric (healing and turning undead) with a little more oomph, this is certainly the PrC to go for (with Sun, Healing and Glory being the Domains of choice). But if want to play a Cleric that's a bit different, RSoP is often a poor fit. More specifically, if you want an Arcane type Cleric, working towards RSoP makes it harder to achieve your goal.


Rebuke Undead falls behind Turning much faster.

Again, I agree. Rebuke Undead provides three benefits, two of which are most useful for lower level characters.

First, you get a few cheap and easily disposable minions. Unlike a summoning spell, these stay around for a long time (unless they're destroyed), so you could use them for triggering traps, springing ambushes or as the party mule. They also have some combat potential - especially if you move them into a flanking position to aid the party Rogue (and who cares if they're destroyed the next round?), or are fighting other undead. These are all things which can help at any party level, although at very high levels the unlife expectancy of your undead minions will probably be very short.

Second, there's the spontaneous casting of Inflict spells. That's good if you want to repair one of your undead minions (as opposed to letting it be destroyed and acquiring another one), and as a touch attack, it might be the key to victory against a foe with a high regular AC but a low touch AC.

The third benefit comes from Righteous Might while fighting Evil aligned foes. Remember that the OP wanted to cast spells like Shivering Touch? That's a Touch range spell (not surprisingly), and Righteous Might provides a number of benefits with regard to that. First, there's the Strength increase, which makes the attack a little more likely to hit. Second, the size increase usually gives 10' Reach, which often makes it less risky to try a Touch attack. Then there's the Constitution increase, which provides an extra 1hp/level and a +1 to Fortitude saves. And the enhancement to natural armor, although that's partly offset by the size increase. Finally, there's the DR I keep mentioning, which is particularly useful if you're fighting Evil creatures.

Of course, Shivering Touch and other Touch range spells (like the spontaneous Inflict spells the Cleric I recommend can cast) are delivered much more easily if you can cast Spectral Hand. If you have the Magic Domain (available to followers of Boccob, but not Pelor), you can cast that spell via a Wand, otherwise it's fairly difficult for a Cleric to do.

[greenknight]

If we won't get a wizard, I'll try to push for Sun+Travel+Magic. I know it's powerful, but with no wizard we'll need every edge we get. Too powerful? Opinions?

The #1 problem I see with this is that your backstory describes you as coming from a cold location, where the Sun Domain isn't really all that appropriate. From a mechanical PoV, unless it's going to be a really undead heavy campaign, the Sun Domain (and the RSoP PrC) probably won't be all that useful to you anyway. I strongly suggest you take the Magic and Trickery Domains initially, since Trickery has such a good spell list. Then you can go down the Divine Oracle + Contemplative path to pick up three more domains later.


Stat spread 14,15,17,9,12,15. Okay, where does the 17 go? :smallbiggrin:

I'd place those scores as follows: Str 12; Dex 14; Con 15; Int 15; Wis 17; Cha 9. That assumes you aren't going to rely on your Turn/Rebuke power against undead much. If you really want to concentrate on Turn/Rebuke Undead, you might want to swap Intelligence and Charisma.


Able Learner? A combat feat? A Frostbite feat? Extra turning? Exalted turning? Radiant whatever (basically the Sun domain greater turning for 2 turning attempts)?

I assume your character is a Human with 2 Feats, so here's some suggestions:

Combat Casting: Useful if you really want to use Touch spells, although a high Constitution and maxing out the skill does make it less useful at higher levels.

Combat Expertise: Potentially useful for when you're making Touch attacks, but I wouldn't consider it to be a high priority.

Extra Turning: Not all that useful by itself, it could be handy if you're going to use Divine Feats, or have a really undead heavy campaign.

Improved Initiative: Because acting before your enemies is often (but not always) a good idea.

Improved Turning: If you really must take RSoP, this will help you do what you do even better. This is not recommended if you don't go the RSoP path!

Point Blank Shot / Precise Shot: Good early on for ranged attacks, this can also be useful for some spells (those which are rays, or can be converted into rays - see below). But if you take one, make sure you take them both.

Divine Metamagic / Extend Spell / Reach Spell / Widen Spell: Divine Metamagic opens up the possibility of casting spells with metamagic effects from 1st level. Three good ones to choose from are Extend Spell, Reach Spell and Widen Spell. If you really want to make good use of your Touch spells, take Reach Spell and DMM: Reach Spell, then work on obtaining Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot later on.

Disciple of the Sun: Looks good, but unnecessary if you want to go with RSoP. I'd probably only recommend it for an undead heavy campaign where RSoP wasn't an option.

Divine Spell Power: Are you feeling lucky? If so, this could be a very good Feat for you. Once you have 5 ranks in Knowledge: Religion, the odds are you're going to get a +1 bonus to your Caster Level each time you use this feat even with a 9 in Charisma, so it can be worth doing, especially if you can bump up your Charisma a bit.

Domain Spontaneity: Depending on the Domains you have, this can be an excellent Feat choice.

Spontaneous Healer: If you rebuke undead, this might come in handy since it still allows you to cast those Cure spells spontaneously.

Able Learner (Races of Destiny): This is an excellent Feat, provided you have the skill points available to make good use of it. If you take it, I recommend you put your skill points into Spot and Listen, to take advantage of your high Wisdom score.

Of the Frostburn feats, only Storm Magic seems interesting, although I'd wait until your character is a high enough level to cast Control Weather (which probably won't happen in your campaign) before I'd consider taking it.

I'd recommend one of three Feat sets, depending on the type of campaign you think it will be:

If you think it will be an Undead heavy campaign, or you really want to go for RSoP, take Improved Turning and Extra Turning.

If you think you'll need to help out in melee, take Combat Casting and Divine Spell Power (find something to boost your Charisma, and get 5 ranks into Knowledge: Religion ASAP).

Otherwise, I suggest Reach Spell and DMM: Reach Spell. They'll allow you stay clear of melee as much as possible, and you can still do some effective damage with them.

[Temp]

The #1 problem I see with this is that your backstory describes you as coming from a cold location, where the Sun Domain isn't really all that appropriate. I don't know... In a cold setting, the sun could have more obvious importance than a temperate climate, being a source of warmth and all...

Just a thought.

[edit:]Even though Able Learner's a great feat, I don't think it would be worth it with Cleric skill points...


...I know it's powerful, but with no wizard we'll need every edge we get.Inter-player balance is the important thing. Most DMs will use enemies appropriate to their party's power, not level. Adapt to the group; there's no problem with any level of optimization as long as everyone's together.

Not that I'd worry about your Domain choice anyway. None of it's going to be much more game-breaking at any level than any other Cleric. There's not that much diversity between members of the class.

[TheOOB]

The sun still shines in a cold climate, and light and warmth are more important then ever. Fire might be a stretch for a cold region cleric, but sun makes perfect sense pretty much anywhere except under ground.

[Renx]

The sun still shines in a cold climate, and light and warmth are more important then ever. Fire might be a stretch for a cold region cleric, but sun makes perfect sense pretty much anywhere except under ground.

A stretch? In a temperate environment, fire is used for what? Lighting and cooking? Then take your regular cold environment, without fire you're dead. Period.

//Edit1: While ice, snow and cold deities are feared and revered, fire and sun equal life in those parts.