Whats an adventure for a Tier 4 Party?

[Lyracian]

Salutations Readers,

Most of the published 5e adventures trail off in tier 3 play. While it is easy to a add a bit more content I was looking for ideas to extend a game through to level 20?

If anyone has good suggestions for games or modules on sites such as DMsGuild or DriveThru then please let me know.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I would ask your players for ideas of what kinds of campaigns interest them rather than asking the playground.

Once your players have spoken, then go search for content online.

[Keravath]

If you are looking for ideas you could start with the tier 4 adventurers league modules. You can find them on DMsGuild I think but they are themed to the individual season plot lines which could limit them a bit. As far as I know, they are a bit of a mixed bag with some good ones and some perhaps less so ... I don't have personal experience with them yet since I only have one character who just reached tier 4.

Another option might be the later levels of the Dungeon of the Mad Mage. These are also intended for tier 4 play and since it is just dungeons you might be able to fit them into a campaign without too much work.

[Kyutaru]

I imagine Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame to be similar to a level 20 campaign.

[Lyracian]

I would ask your players for ideas of what kinds of campaigns interest them rather than asking the playground.
Once your players have spoken, then go search for content online.
There view was it would be nice to carry on playing the characters. Hence why I am looking now for some ideas before we finish the planned arcs I have.



If you are looking for ideas you could start with the tier 4 adventurers league modules. You can find them on DMsGuild I think but they are themed to the individual season plot lines which could limit them a bit. As far as I know, they are a bit of a mixed bag with some good ones and some perhaps less so ... I don't have personal experience with them yet since I only have one character who just reached tier 4.

Another option might be the later levels of the Dungeon of the Mad Mage. These are also intended for tier 4 play and since it is just dungeons you might be able to fit them into a campaign without too much work.
Thanks! I will have a look at a few of them for inspiration.

[KorvinStarmast]

Whats an adventure for a Tier 4 Party? An Empyrean has gone off the rails / gone mad / run amok. Maybe more than one. (Read the detailed description of Empyreans in the MM). Consider what the ripple effects of that are in your game world. Build around that.

Empyrean (All info from the MM)

Huge celestial (titan), chaotic good (75%) or neutral evil (25%)
Empyreans are The Celestial children of the gods of the Upper Planes. They are universally beautiful, statuesque, and self-assured.

Manifest Emotion. An empyrean can experience deity-like fits of serenity or rage. It can affect The Environment around it by its mood. When an empyrean is unhappy, the clouds might cry tears of salt water, the wildflowers in surrounding meadows might wilt, dead fish might wash ashore in lakes or rivers, or a nearby Forest might lose the leaves from its trees. When an empyrean is jubilant, sunlight follows it everywhere, small animals frolic in its footsteps, and birds fill the sky with their pleasing songs.

Immortal Titans. Empyreans don’t age but can be slain. Because few empyreans can imagine their own demise, they fight fearlessly when drawn into battle, refusing to believe that the end is upon them even when standing at death’s door. When an empyrean dies, its spirit returns to its home plane. There, one of The Fallen empyrean’s Parents resurrects the empyrean unless he or she has a good reason not to.

How does your party solve that problem: getting the Empyeran to stop running amok, and repairing the damage done?

In solving the problem, consider this:

Saving Throws: Str +17, Int +12, Wis +13, Cha +15, Dex +5, Con +10,
Skills: Insight +13, Persuasion +15
Damage Immunities: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks
Senses: truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 16
Languages: all tough to get the Empyrean with magic.

Innate Spellcasting: Spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the empyrean fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead. Magic Resistance. The empyrean has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects. Save or suck spells have an uphill fight.
Obviously, the attacks do damage, but check this out.
Legendary Actions
Bolster.
The empyrean bolsters all nonhostile creatures within 120 feet of it until the end of its next turn. Bolstered creatures can’t be charmed or frightened, and they gain advantage on ability checks and saving throws until the end of the empyrean’s next turn.
Add a bunch of allies and followers ... heh, even a cult? :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

Salutations Readers,

Most of the published 5e adventures trail off in tier 3 play. While it is easy to a add a bit more content I was looking for ideas to extend a game through to level 20?

If anyone has good suggestions for games or modules on sites such as DMsGuild or DriveThru then please let me know.

Here's an easy way to search for adventures: https://www.adventurelookup.com/adventures?edition=5th%20Edition&minStartingLevel=%E2%89%A517

You can filter by system (e.g. 5E), level range, existence of pregenerated characters and handouts, etc.

[Eldariel]

3e Bastion of Broken Souls is a wonderful actually multiverse-tier adventure (rework enemy stat blocks and tactics to be more level appropriate; but since it takes a conversion, that's a given anyways). It enables divination as a part of the solution but not the whole deal, it features many big movers and high level environments and it's just very well suited for high level characters (casters in particular but that's innate to Tier 4 non-railroaded adventures).

Other stuff; Age of Worms and many 3e Elder Evils work great on that level range.

[Unoriginal]

I'd like taking a shot at stealing the Mead of Poetry from the Giant Gods.

Or another similarly Promethean heist.

[loki_ragnarock]

Reposted from a previous thread about an adventure for 20th level characters. Might want to change some of the time scales, but otherwise it seems fitting.


Here's my slow walked proposal:

While your characters were busy doing whatever it was that got them to 20th level, another group of adventurers failed in preventing the Underdark from turning into an Abyssal Cyst, and now a bunch of Demon Lords have popped out and started undermining Faerun's foundations and sucking everything into the Abyss. Rather than turning on each other, they've each gone in a separate direction to spread the Cyst further into foundations of the world

Every creature that has inhabited the Underdark is now pushing to the surface in a mass exodus of beings willing to eat through each other to get away from the calamity. The many societies of the surface are unprepared for the weight of these invasive refugees. Famine spreads, kingdoms fall, cities burn.

Now the forces of Hell have been summoned by a cabal of 1,000 of liches that have basically been minding their business for the past few thousand years, all of which had come to the conclusion that the only chance to combat the forces of the Abyss is to open up the world to Hell itself. Dukes and Arch-Dukes and their proxies flood through. More kingdoms fall. More famine. More ruined cities as the world turns against itself. For these are the end of times, and the world is truly doomed. Unless a quintet (quartet, trio, however many) of recently freed up pseudo-demigods that are the level 20 party can tilt the scales.


The PCs job? Find and eliminate each Demon Prince - some of whom may have allied in the face or Hellish opposition - to prevent the spreading of the cyst, then immediately defeat the opposing Arch-Duke and their retinue to prevent Hell from slipping in where the Abyss has been now contained. Meanwhile, every other high level NPC of note is tracking down and eliminating this secret cabal of mystery liches, ensuring they will have no back up. They have 5 days to pull this off; any more and the cyst will have expanded too far to repair as Faerun is subsumed into the Abyss or Avernus, depending on whether the area is dominated by Hellish or Abyssal forces.


It culminates in Tiamat using the struggle to free herself from her prison in Avernus as she crashes through the surface of Faerun, because that's what every dragon has been focused on for the last few days. Whoops. Forgot about the dragons, but now they have to deal with that. But simultaneously waddling into view is a Tarrasque howdah carrying the remaining liches of the cabal, now sans phylacteries because of the efforts of every other now dead high level NPC. They're looking for materials to make their new phylacteries in the wreckage that remains, and it turns out the PCs have just what they need to rebuild them before fading back into the shadows for the next world scale cluster bomb that would validate their doomsday ideology, seeing as how the tearing of the world between two planes has been averted.
They have 5 rounds to deal with Tiamat before the Tarrasque Lich Howdah arrives.
If the PCs survive, they graduate to a new edition of D&D.


Is it gonzo? Hell yeah.

[J-H]

I'm writing such a module now, but won't publish it until I play it.
-A bad deity from an unknown continent is trying to manifest on the material plane in person. His troops are invading the heroes' continent for slaves to sacrifice. The heroes have to stop the invading forces, steal a small airship, cross a big ocean (including hitting a hurricane, unless they bypass it with magic), and then stop said deity. There will be multiple local factions they can ally with or fight against. The main adversary deity's high priest will be guarded by four high-ranked priests of subservient gods, unless they first kill the subservient gods' high priests... so if they charge straight in, they are up against 5 divine casters with access to 8th-level spells, plus an animate idol of a deity, on top of a temple pyramid in a major city.

Sooo... lots of exploring around to find allies to deal with the enemy military, finding 4 temples, killing those high priests, and evading steadily-increasing numbers of air-skiff patrols looking for them.

It's hex-based so there are plenty of other things to run into including a vampire tortle, some high end monsters and beasts, a green dragon who's mostly waiting for all this to blow over, a secluded mesa full of dinosaurs, etc.

Lots of travel, lots of exploration, plenty of combat, a good amount of politics/diplomacy, and some set-piece battles that involve dealing with people who use Prismatic Wall as an outer defense and Prismatic Spray as a favored spell.

[MaxWilson]

Reposted from a previous thread about an adventure for 20th level characters. Might want to change some of the time scales, but otherwise it seems fitting.




I regret to say that as a player that adventure would infuriate me. The liches created that problem for no reason at all instead of just doing the sensible thing and nuking all the demon lords immediately. Nice Job Breaking It, Liches. Aren't liches supposed to be intelligent?

Plus, if there's enough allied NPCs around to defeat a cabal of 1000 liches working together, in only five days, then the Demon Lords were never a threat in the first place.

The adventure context just winds up making the PCs a sideshow. It would be better off without the liches ex machina.

[KorvinStarmast]

I regret to say that as a player that adventure would infuriate me. The liches created that problem for no reason at all instead of just doing the sensible thing and nuking all the demon lords immediately. Nice Job Breaking It, Liches. Aren't liches supposed to be intelligent?

Plus, if there's enough allied NPCs around to defeat a cabal of 1000 liches working together, in only five days, then the Demon Lords were never a threat in the first place.

The adventure context just winds up making the PCs a sideshow. It would be better off without the liches ex machina.
Given that in ToA, Acererak is a single lich who is able to threaten the whole world and some deities, I'd say Max is spot on with this critique.

[loki_ragnarock]

I regret to say that as a player that adventure would infuriate me. The liches created that problem for no reason at all instead of just doing the sensible thing and nuking all the demon lords immediately. Nice Job Breaking It, Liches. Aren't liches supposed to be intelligent?

Plus, if there's enough allied NPCs around to defeat a cabal of 1000 liches working together, in only five days, then the Demon Lords were never a threat in the first place.

The adventure context just winds up making the PCs a sideshow. It would be better off without the liches ex machina.


... the liches are super intelligent beings that have wildly different priorities than non-nigh immortal beings; if they are as obsessed with balance as Mordenkainen, strict 2e true neutral interpretations. Or they are part of a long term doomsday cult from a culture that predates any modern civilization that have been laying the groundwork for this moment for a thousand generations of dragons. Motive is largely irrelevant to the larger narrative; they just need one.
Further, they exist because Greenwood tweeted once upon a time that there are thousands to tens of thousands of liches that nobody really knows anything about that are doing gods knows what but are generally beneath the sights of adventurers (and so I rolled with it; even if only one person in a generation goes lich, that's alot of liches unaccounted for) AND so that Elminster, Blackstaff, Drizzt, Szazz Tamm, that Elder Brain lich thing I don't recall the name of, and all the other extremely high level characters that populate the Realms aren't just solving the problem for the PCs; they're using their collective abilities to suss out where these liches are, where their phylacteries are, eliminating both (and probably getting killed off in the process to clear out some narrative space for future PCs in the setting). Because it's the Realms; if the 1000 liches don't exist, than the 1000 20+ level NPCs that are wandering around the realms will snuff the demons/devils. If the 1000 liches aren't dedicated to apocalypse, then they'd take care of the demons. If they exist and are dedicated to the apocalypse, then the 1000 20+ level NPCs are occupied, leaving room for the PCs to have an adventure where they avert the apocalypse by fighting a bunch of iconic Demon Lords and Arch Devils.
Less a side show, more a set up to cancel out the many, many, many characters in the setting that could knock out any actual cosmic threat in the span of the afternoon.

[Unoriginal]

Given that in ToA, Acererak is a single lich who is able to threaten the whole world and some deities, I'd say Max is spot on with this critique.

I mean, Acererak is much more powerful than a regular lich by several miles.


That being said

"use a Demon invasion to try to get people to sell their world to him" is a well-known trick of Asmodeus, so yeah the liches are indeed superfluous.

Also personally I would try allying with Tiamat to destroy the liches and their pet titan, in those circumstances.

[Miele]

Salutations Readers,

Most of the published 5e adventures trail off in tier 3 play. While it is easy to a add a bit more content I was looking for ideas to extend a game through to level 20?

If anyone has good suggestions for games or modules on sites such as DMsGuild or DriveThru then please let me know.

I'd start from where your group comes, what campaign they enjoyed so far and scale up the threat two steps a time, keep the pace of events very fast, nothing like impending doom to make people run faster (or suicide I guess). If you plan a level 20 gran finale, don't spoil the BBEG maybe, make that a surprise, but not a stupid one.

Unfortunately the last time I was a DM for top levels, we were playing BECMI edition in the late 80s and early 90s, but those characters lasted for 5 years and change, about 3 of them at level 36. I still have plenty of ideas to poach from those days, I'm looking forward to get there as a DM in 5e.

[micahaphone]

also keep in mind that CR falls apart (more) at higher levels. for example, I'm running Out of the Abyss (what I'm guessing was the origin/lower levels of the previous "gonzo" plot synopsis from loki_ragnarok),



and in my prep I see that my players could be fighting demon lords as early as level 11-12, and definitely at level 15.

While there's some suggested slight nerfs (removing 60 hp is plenty according to a 3rd party DM's guide), Yeenoghu is CR 24 and can die to a party of level 12 characters, and I've heard the by the book finale, a CR 26 Demogorgon vs the level 15 party is a bit of a letdown and needs some extra pizzazz thrown in to make a worthy finale.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, Acererak is much more powerful than a regular lich by several miles.

I feel strongly that the original intent of Tomb of Horrors was for Acererak to be a bog-standard lich. As in, all ruthless, hyperintelligent thousand-year-old undead wizards are supposed to scare the pants off you even in absentia.

5E as published doesn't really subscribe to that philosophy, unfortunately.


also keep in mind that CR falls apart (more) at higher levels. for example, I'm running Out of the Abyss (what I'm guessing was the origin/lower levels of the previous "gonzo" plot synopsis from loki_ragnarok),


and in my prep I see that my players could be fighting demon lords as early as level 11-12, and definitely at level 15.

While there's some suggested slight nerfs (removing 60 hp is plenty according to a 3rd party DM's guide), Yeenoghu is CR 24 and can die to a party of level 12 characters, and I've heard the by the book finale, a CR 26 Demogorgon vs the level 15 party is a bit of a letdown and needs some extra pizzazz thrown in to make a worthy finale.

Hmmmm. I suspect that's more a matter of adventure design than stats--Yeenoghu for example has the intelligence and the tools to be an incredibly painful recurring villain for the PCs (invisibility, high speed + legendary action movement, Teleport) especially if he makes a habit of dropping in on the PCs when they're in the middle of something else to Dispel a key spell at the wrong time, Paralyze or Confuse a backline caster, finish off a wounded PC, etc.

I don't remember the end of OOtA. Or rather, what I remember is a big fight between all of the Demon Lords and the PCs finishing off whoever is still alive, but I can't remember if that's what is written into OOtA as the suggested ending or someone else's suggested revamping of it. Personally I feel the idea of having the PCs fight Demogorgon mano a mano is only interesting if that's a benefit the PCs gained from some sort of cunning plan. Otherwise, Demogorgon should be part of a much bigger fight involving waaaaay too many demon bodyguards and other minions.

If PCs somehow manage to trap Demogorgon in with them in a triple-size Magic Circle generated by the MacGuffin, then even a straightforward beat-down isn't a letdown--the opportunity for a straightforward beatdown is what you were praying for all along. It's like... [searches for fictional example]... it's like when Corwin of Amber sneaks into Amber via the Pattern and manages to catch Eric alone in the library and almost defeat him in a swordfight, without having to fight his way up the slopes of Mount Kolvir through an army of soldiers first. (But it doesn't work, and then he has to do it the hard way, and it doesn't go well.)

Demogorgon is an Evil Overlord. Overlords come with minions.

[Unoriginal]

I feel strongly that the original intent of Tomb of Horrors was for Acererak to be a bog-standard lich. As in, all ruthless, hyperintelligent thousand-year-old undead wizards are supposed to scare the pants off you even in absentia.

I don't know, it's possible, but the Tomb was meant to be a soul-crusher among soul-crushing dungeons, even those who are run by liches.



5E as published doesn't really subscribe to that philosophy, unfortunately.

I mean, it's not a 5e thing, Acererak's power and scope was inflated a lot since Gygax's time, and a ton of writers kept piling up on the topic.

That being said, all 5e liches *are" ruthless geniuses who can scare the pants off you even in absentia. And the Demilich shows how they're extremely dangerous even when diminished.

Not all of them have the dramatic flair and the trolling mindset of good ol' Mr. Sphere-of-Annihilation-in-the-Green-Devil-face, though.



Demogorgon is an Evil Overlord. Overlords come with minions.

This is true.

Out of the Abyss is interesting, IMO, because all the Demon Princes the PCs have to deal with are essentially just as much strangers in a strange land in the Underdark than the PCs are, due to being thrown far out of their comfort zones and having to scramble whatever eggs their chaotic minds can think off to make their omelettes.

[heavyfuel]

Definitely not "medieval fantasy".

While D&D is (very) loosely built around the idea of medieval fantasy, this idea breaks down hard in Tier 3, and shouldn't be anywhere close Tier 4.

Stuff like fighting end of the world threats, cosmic horrors, and running through hell to kill a Demon Lord are all pretty standard stuff for Tier 4

[Unoriginal]

Definitely not "medieval fantasy".

While D&D is (very) loosely built around the idea of medieval fantasy, this idea breaks down hard in Tier 3, and shouldn't be anywhere close Tier 4.

Stuff like fighting end of the world threats, cosmic horrors, and running through hell to kill a Demon Lord are all pretty standard stuff for Tier 4

None of those things would change the work from being "medieval fantasy", though. You can have a "running through hell" adventure in a medieval setting.

[micahaphone]

Max, you bring up an interesting struggle I have yet to resolve into any sort of synthesis. Demons are chaotic, not dumb, so you're completely correct that say Yeenoghu could be a great recurring villain who pops up at the perfect moments to cause discord and failure. Yet at the same time, Yeenoghu and/or Baphomet embody the thrill of the hunt and savagery and revel in slaughter. So I struggle between "yes an intelligent hunter would pop up to pick off a weak party member and then disappear into the mists with a cackle", and "but he embodies slaughter, he grants gnolls the rampage ability, he's gonna show up with a mighty war horn and enjoy a real good scrap", as befitting a lord of butchery. Is he the perfect hunter, invisibly stalking and appearing when his prey is weak? Or does he carve a path of destruction, with gnolls and hyenas in his wake feasting on what remains?

I already have a tough time making a meaningful distinction between yeenoghu and baphomet - they have different reasons but both seem focused on hunting and bloodshed. Yeenoghu has a spikes&chains aesthetic going on, and baphomet has the whole maze/illusions style, but they both seem to boil down to "gonna hunt stuff and enjoy the bloody mess I'll create".

I'm guessing that's why they're listed in books as rivals, and why oota puts them both into the same location


Just like how Demogorgon has 20 intelligence but is literally the lord of chaos and madness, so how do I choose the actions and plans of "genius but insane" BBEG that doesn't just result in "dumb but has good int saves"? I'd love to add some more recurring encounters with him or other demon lords, but now I gotta determine the goals, motivation, and active plans of many demon lords. the module provides that for some, (zugg, jublex, fraz, yeenoghu, baphomet), I've added some of my own (what graz'zt and orcus are up to), but for being the on the cover and the supposed biggest theme for the book IDK what to do with demogorgon other than have weird cults, spreading madness, and 2 headed stuff pop up.

[Unoriginal]

Max, you bring up an interesting struggle I have yet to resolve into any sort of synthesis. Demons are chaotic, not dumb, so you're completely correct that say Yeenoghu could be a great recurring villain who pops up at the perfect moments to cause discord and failure. Yet at the same time, Yeenoghu and/or Baphomet embody the thrill of the hunt and savagery and revel in slaughter. So I struggle between "yes an intelligent hunter would pop up to pick off a weak party member and then disappear into the mists with a cackle", and "but he embodies slaughter, he grants gnolls the rampage ability, he's gonna show up with a mighty war horn and enjoy a real good scrap", as befitting a lord of butchery. Is he the perfect hunter, invisibly stalking and appearing when his prey is weak? Or does he carve a path of destruction, with gnolls and hyenas in his wake feasting on what remains?

Why not both? Yeenoghu, like all demons, is a personification of malevolent chaos and individuality. Acting only a certain way would be a weakness for him, not a strength.

Do note that while the Gnolls have Rampage as an ability, they also use longbows to systematically kill fleeing enemies, and use flaming arrows to burn down buildings so they can attack in the confusion and flames rather than just rush in.

I feel like Yeenoghu is the kind of Hunter of the Most Dangerous Game who will constantly harass and scare his preys until they're too exhausted and jittery to know what to do. Not really a discreet hunter, but a bombastic "I'm here and you can't run from me" reminder every time his enemies think they're safe. Kind of like a Slasher, if you will.



I already have a tough time making a meaningful distinction between yeenoghu and baphomet - they have different reasons but both seem focused on hunting and bloodshed. Yeenoghu has a spikes&chains aesthetic going on, and baphomet has the whole maze/illusions style, but they both seem to boil down to "gonna hunt stuff and enjoy the bloody mess I'll create".

I'm guessing that's why they're listed in books as rivals, and why oota puts them both into the same location

Their similarities are notable, this is 100% true, but so are their differences.

The main difference is that Yeenoghu is all about slaughter, while Baphomet is all about savagery and the loss of civilisation.


Yeenoghu wants bloodshed and destruction and people killing each other. Be it two gnolls removing each other guts or a large army of supposedly disciplined soldiers pillaging a conquered town

Baphomet may be happy with bloodshed, but he's... patient, so to speak (which is interesting given the animals he's associated with are herbivores). He has no problem creating nature cults to trick people into turning themselves into Minotaurs, which is a lot of effort to pull a "gotcha" moment (when Yeenoghu for example created the Gnolls just by being there (and in turn Gnolls create more Gnolls just by being there)). Baphomet wants to do away with the prestances related to civility, and remind people that it's primal savagery that makes them survive when the chips are down.

This is also illustrated in Descent into Avernus. In it, Yeenoghu essentially delegated the "find a way to get an advantage" to his subordinates while he's fighting on the frontline of the Blood War, while Baphomet is

having a mental battle with the god Thorn for controlling the mind of one of Elturel's last defenders, while having hijacked a sacred portal in the city's crypts and intending to use it as a way to claim the whole city for himself



Just like how Demogorgon has 20 intelligence but is literally the lord of chaos and madness, so how do I choose the actions and plans of "genius but insane" BBEG that doesn't just result in "dumb but has good int saves"? I'd love to add some more recurring encounters with him or other demon lords, but now I gotta determine the goals, motivation, and active plans of many demon lords. the module provides that for some, (zugg, jublex, fraz, yeenoghu, baphomet), I've added some of my own (what graz'zt and orcus are up to), but for being the on the cover and the supposed biggest theme for the book IDK what to do with demogorgon other than have weird cults, spreading madness, and 2 headed stuff pop up.

Well, think about it:

Demogorgon is away from his power zone, thrown out without plan or warning. He has none of his usual ressources, and is stuck in a very small (at least, compared to the infinite Abyss which is his usual dwellings), claustrophobic area with some of the rare beings in the whole cosmos who a) he can't really ignore b) have the capacity to hurt him.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he was scared.

That being the case, he can sees that the PCs are being movers and shakers in the Underdark, and that they do have the capacity to ruin his rivals' days. I think it'd be pretty normal for him to use his "contact people in dreams" capacity to talk with the PCs while they sleep.

Both because they'd be useful as minions, but also because aside from them he has no one but himself to talk with, and he *hates* himself with all the spite a creature of pure individuality being stuck being two persons is capable of.

It would be a good opportunity to show how smart Demogorgon is, despite his chaotic nature, having him talk about topics ranging from philosophy or arcane magic theories to how questioning how circuses manage to put salt inside the peanuts they sell.

[heavyfuel]

None of those things would change the work from being "medieval fantasy", though. You can have a "running through hell" adventure in a medieval setting.

Sure, you can. However, while the setting is medieval, the adventure is not. If you say "medieval fantasy", most people wouldn't picture Dante's Inferno as your standard quest.

Also, there's the implication of why there are all the problems associated with standard medieval fantasy when these problems could be solved by a Wizard saying stuff like "I wish crops would grow better" or whatever. Medieval settings work fine when you're sprinkling Tier 2 magic on top of them, but the suspension of disbelief begins to break around Tier 3.

[MaxWilson]

Max, you bring up an interesting struggle I have yet to resolve into any sort of synthesis... *snip* Just like how Demogorgon has 20 intelligence but is literally the lord of chaos and madness, so how do I choose the actions and plans of "genius but insane" BBEG that doesn't just result in "dumb but has good int saves"? I'd love to add some more recurring encounters with him or other demon lords, but now I gotta determine the goals, motivation, and active plans of many demon lords. the module provides that for some, (zugg, jublex, fraz, yeenoghu, baphomet), I've added some of my own (what graz'zt and orcus are up to), but for being the on the cover and the supposed biggest theme for the book IDK what to do with demogorgon other than have weird cults, spreading madness, and 2 headed stuff pop up.

FWIW, Rising From the Last War (Eberron) has Xoriat the "plane of madness" which confuses me this same way (hyperintelligent but mad Daelkyr), and yet Exploring Eberron has a solution which I really like: cultists of Xoriat and the Daelkyr tend to call it instead "the plane of revelation." It has things in it that might drive you mad (like time travel), but those within it are not necessarily irrational per se.

Maybe you could do something along those lines with Demogorgon. Play him as hyperintelligent first and foremost, but then find a way for him operate in ways which appear utterly decoupled from the way a normal PC would think (and yet they work anyway!).

Something like this:

A normal person who wants an item from a merchant saves up money and buys it.

A murderhobo who wants an item from a merchant kills the merchant and takes it. (Then hides from the police.)

A murderloony who wants an item from a merchant sets fire to the block, waits for everything to burn down, spends a decade or so haunting the ruins and murdering anyone who is interested in purchasing the ruins, disguises themself as a kindly old man, adopts an orphan, raises the orphan to become a real estate tycoon, manipulates the orphan into making the murderloony their heir, persuades the orphan to buy the ruins, digs up the item from the shop's ruins, replaces it with the orphan's body, then fakes their own death as the orphan's heir.

A Demogorgon who wants an item from a merchant offers a cursed gristmill to a local peasant, knowing that the gluttonous peasant will wish for "mead" and will not know how to stop it, because he has perfectly calculated the hydraulic flows of a river of mead originating at the peasant's location, and will sweep away all of the items in the merchant's shop to the ocean where a cult of Demogorgon-worshipping sahuagin lurks beneath the waves, ready to gather up the item and hold it for Demogorgon's Emissary while they feast on the flesh of mead-drowned townsfolk.

Demogorgon's goals might be incomprehensibly roundabout and with horrific externalities, yet the execution of any given step (like "corner and kill the PCs") might still be brilliantly efficient and ruthlessly effective.

[micahaphone]

I owe a massive thank you to unoriginal and maxwilson. You two have given me more knowledge of these demons than the campaign book, mordenkainen's tome, and the forgotten realms wiki put together. This is plenty of fuel for me to write into my campaign. Hooks and happenings abound!

[BeefGood]

Consider The Dying Flame, available on DM's Guild. I've only read through it a few times, not played it, but it's creative and seems fun.

[Xervous]

Take a look at Savage Tides 3.5e dragon mag. There are various PDF compilations around. Short of it is Demogorgon has devised a ritual that will plunge a good portion of the world into mutated monstrous bloodshed as part of the ritual for fusing his minds off the resulting energy and becoming the classic UNSTOPPABLE* that all ultimate power villains aspire to.

A decent bit of the higher end stuff is planar politics there. The PCs and other players are functionally WMDs, so it’s only natural there’s unspoken or other such agreements/understandings in place that keep the setting from imploding into a free for all.

[Sigreid]

Talk to the players. By tier 4 I think the party should be changing from being reactive to proactive.

A few ideas:

1. take down a kingdom or empire that annoys them.
2. pick a fight with a religion
3. try to win the blood war
4 lets burn down heaven

In tier 4, they should be among the most powerful/competent people ever to have walked the planet. What do they want to do to shape history?

[Xervous]

Talk to the players. By tier 4 I think the party should be changing from being reactive to proactive.

A few ideas:

1. take down a kingdom or empire that annoys them.
2. pick a fight with a religion
3. try to win the blood war
4 lets burn down heaven

In tier 4, they should be among the most powerful/competent people ever to have walked the planet. What do they want to do to shape history?

Knocking out a kingdom or religion is potentially a T3 adventure, maybe dipping to T2. All are going to involve some sort of social shuffle to get allies or mindless shining murderbot legions, but something like besieging Celestia successfully implies the party and their allies can probably trample over a whole material plane in their spare time.

[MaxWilson]

In tier 4, they should be among the most powerful/competent people ever to have walked the planet. What do they want to do to shape history?

Naw, powerful creatures are commonplace in D&D lore. What makes high-level PCs stand out is their mutual _cooperation_ (plus plot armor). It's like, what if Vecna and Kaz were both significantly weaker (20th level) but never betrayed each other, and had two or three more buddies of similar power as well?

Plot armor a.k.a. "encounter balance" is what keeps the bad guys from also teaming up in return. (It's also what usually keeps bad guys from exploiting broken spells like Simulacrum and Wish.)

[Unoriginal]

Naw, powerful creatures are commonplace in D&D lore. What makes high-level PCs stand out is their mutual _cooperation_ (plus plot armor). It's like, what if Vecna and Kaz were both significantly weaker (20th level) but never betrayed each other, and had two or three more buddies of similar power as well?

To be fair, powerful creatures still tend to be history-makers in D&D. Unless they deliberately choose not to (like liches burying themselves away from the world), which is also history-shaping in a way.

[Sigreid]

Knocking out a kingdom or religion is potentially a T3 adventure, maybe dipping to T2. All are going to involve some sort of social shuffle to get allies or mindless shining murderbot legions, but something like besieging Celestia successfully implies the party and their allies can probably trample over a whole material plane in their spare time.

Goals the party sets for themselves would be boring if they weren't nearly impossible/borderline crazy.:smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

To be fair, powerful creatures still tend to be history-makers in D&D. Unless they deliberately choose not to (like liches burying themselves away from the world), which is also history-shaping in a way.

True. I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that they can shape history (PCs can start doing that in Tier 1), rather with the idea that they are uniquely powerful as individuals.

Your typical 20th level PC tends to clock in around CR 15-19, at least whenever I've done the math on one. However, it's relatively rare for CR 15-19 creatures to come in flocks. (And PCs tend to also have good abilities that don't show up in CR, like strategic mobility via Teleport--but then again, so do some monsters. E.g. vampire charm is incredibly powerful for influencing groups/organizations, making vampires far more strategically dangerous than the CR 13 label would suggest.)