The best two Warlock Spells at level 4

[KorvinStarmast]

I am leveling up from 7 to 8 with a Celestial Warlock.
I am finally getting rid of Mirror Image; I have used it so rarely that I think I'll forego it for this next level. Already have Banishment and Wall of Fire.
The remainig 4th level spell are intriguing ... but the choices have me filled with indecision.

Blight; Dimension Door; Hallucinatory Terrain; Charm monster; Elemental Bane; Shadow of Moil; Sickening Radiance; Summon Greater Demon and Guardian of Faith (due to me being a Celestial)

Guardian of Faith:Our DM frequently has encounters happen during the overnight while the party is resting.


Charm Monster: good, bad, indifferent?
Sickening Radiance: Have heard some like it, but not seen it cast 'in anger' at the table yet.
Shadow of Moil: Have not seen this spell in play. Is it Good, bad, or indifferent? It looks pretty interesting from its description.

Note on the party: our Wizard is kind of blasty. Me taking Elemental Bane to support his play style might be a best choice; my general theme is support, not blasty.
Spells still in my loaded clip: (We have no cleric)

Revivify
Remove Curse
Fly
Hold Person
Fear
Lesser Restoration

What do you think is my best choice, playgrounders?
I can be talked out of Guardian of Faith, probably, since I do have the ritual Alarm and Magic Mouth in my tome.

What two spells do you recommend?

The ASI has me going back and forth between Boosting Cha to 20 and getting Warcaster.
I am heavy on Concentration spells. While my general rule is "max spell casting stat soonest" I have noted that, of late, the DM likes to try and disrupt concentration spells, and he rarely has a single monster confronting us. I'll make the final call tomorrow when the formal level up happens.

[clash]

I have always found dimension door to be extraordinarily useful. With warlock short rests you will often cast it outside of combat and have an hour to regain the spell slot before you fight.

[Bobthewizard]

Guardian of Faith, Shadow of Moil, Sickening Radiance, and Dimension Door are all great. Any of them would be good choices. I like Summon Greater Demon too but probably not for a Celestial Warlock. I'd pass on Charm Monster.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like a lot of things about Sickening radiance, and next level when our Wizard takes Wall of Force (if we live that long) we may try the WoF/Sickening Radiance combo platter (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/174874/22566). (A bit cheesy, but if we do it once it will be cool. Doing it all the time will make the game boring for the non casters like our rogue, fighter, barbarian). I also like how it marks enemies as "can't be invisible" which I suspect will figure into our encouters a bit more as we level up.
Arrgh, choices! Thanks for the feedback, still pondering. Also, looks like Charm Monster won't make the cut for the time being.

[Bobthewizard]

I'll break these down a little more.

Guardian of Faith - great campsite guard but it only takes an action to cast, so if you can get enemies close to it, then you get a guaranteed 60hp of damage. Lasts 8 hours so you could cast a few if you know you are about to be attacked. Cast 2, short rest, cast 2 more, etc...

Shadow of Moil - mechanically this is essentially greater invisibility but works against true sight and can't be used for sneaking. It's great if you are primarily an Eldritch Blast warlock. Advantage combined with repelling blast and lance of lethargy is a good combo.

Sickening Radiance - even without wall of force can be a useful spell to force the enemy to move, such as a couple strong guards watching the door, or a captain manning the ship's helm. At chokepoints, have your tanks block the way with sickening radiance beyond it. Not my go to spell during a large open room fight but still sees plenty of use.

Dimension Door - great emergency spell. Get yourself and a wounded ally out of combat. Technically, an object you take with you can be worn or carried by another, so you can use it to steal the demon's sword or wizard's staff.

I'm generally unimpressed by the Warlock's 5th level spell list so I usually end up with a lot of 4th level spells.

[Unoriginal]

I am leveling up from 7 to 8 with a Celestial Warlock.
I am finally getting rid of Mirror Image; I have used it so rarely that I think I'll forego it for this next level. Already have Banishment and Wall of Fire.
The remainig 4th level spell are intriguing ... but the choices have me filled with indecision.

Blight; Dimension Door; Hallucinatory Terrain; Charm monster; Elemental Bane; Shadow of Moil; Sickening Radiance; Summon Greater Demon and Guardian of Faith (due to me being a Celestial)

Guardian of Faith:Our DM frequently has encounters happen during the overnight while the party is resting.


Charm Monster: good, bad, indifferent?
Sickening Radiance: Have heard some like it, but not seen it cast 'in anger' at the table yet.
Shadow of Moil: Have not seen this spell in play. Is it Good, bad, or indifferent? It looks pretty interesting from its description.

Note on the party: our Wizard is kind of blasty. Me taking Elemental Bane to support his play style might be a best choice; my general theme is support, not blasty.
Spells still in my loaded clip: (We have no cleric)

Revivify
Remove Curse
Fly
Hold Person
Fear
Lesser Restoration

What do you think is my best choice, playgrounders?
I can be talked out of Guardian of Faith, probably, since I do have the ritual Alarm and Magic Mouth in my tome.

What two spells do you recommend?

The ASI has me going back and forth between Boosting Cha to 20 and getting Warcaster.
I am heavy on Concentration spells. While my general rule is "max spell casting stat soonest" I have noted that, of late, the DM likes to try and disrupt concentration spells, and he rarely has a single monster confronting us. I'll make the final call tomorrow when the formal level up happens.

What the campaign you're playing this character in is like?

I think that the Warlock's spell selection can depend on context quite a bit, in at least some contexts.

[MaxWilson]

Honestly I'm going to recommend that you grab Polymorph (as an invocation) and hang on to it at least until you hit level 10 or so. At levels 7-8, Polymorph (Giant Ape) is terrific.

I'm also favorably inclined towards both Dimension Door and Sickening Radiance.

[ImproperJustice]

I have a level 12 Warlock, Archfet Chain.

So my set up is a little different than yours.

However, I would also recommend Sickening Radiance. It’s a nice AoE, it denies an area, and has a great damage type.
I have used it several times.


Dimension Door is really nice to have. It’s an escape spell, a utility spell, and even an offensive one by bringing an ally deep behind enemy lines to cause havoc.


And as a Warlock, you already have a great combat spell, so your other spells should mostly be about giving you options, which both of the above do quite well.

[RSP]

You should have Dimension Door: it’s a fantastic spell with uses in any number of situations. I’d say it’s worth having regardless of build.

I also like Sickening Radiance, however, if you have a lot competing for Concentration, it’s not a must-have. GoF could be an interesting option on a Warlock.

[KorvinStarmast]

What the campaign you're playing this character in is like? I think that the Warlock's spell selection can depend on context quite a bit, in at least some contexts. You are correct. We have a good sized party (when all show up 7 PCs) and we are up against some unknown evil something behind the usurper king and are trying to get the real king back into power. Have just transitioned from a mostly outdoors campaign into dungeon delving a very old elven city that got buried by a volcano like Pompeii and Herculenium did. The CR of the enemies is cranking up rather rapidly as my brother assesses this party's habits.

I explicitly chose to be more support and leave the damage dealing mostly to the others. This has worked out well enough. That's what informs my question; my aim is to make the party more effective and be flexible. I don't have agonzing blast, for example. I prefer the push and pull (Repelling, Hadar's grasp) for moving stuff around the battlefield to support the others).

Honestly I'm going to recommend that you grab Polymorph (as an invocation) and hang on to it at least until you hit level 10 or so. At levels 7-8, Polymorph (Giant Ape) is terrific.

I'm also favorably inclined towards both Dimension Door and Sickening Radiance. Good advice, thanks Max.
Our wizard has Polymorph already, and I don't get another invocataion until 9th. I have my tome invocation for rituals, Mage Armor/Armor of Shadows, and two blast invocations for battlefield control: repelling and Hadar's grasp. Each is handy for helping the party do stuff. At 9th I may take that suggestion at 9 when an invocation opens up.

You should have Dimension Door: it’s a fantastic spell with uses in any number of situations. I’d say it’s worth having regardless of build. I also like Sickening Radiance, however, if you have a lot competing for Concentration, it’s not a must-have. GoF could be an interesting option on a Warlock. More DD love. Like it. I have locked that in as one choice


However, I would also recommend Sickening Radiance. It’s a nice AoE, it denies an area, and has a great damage type. I have used it several times.
Dimension Door is really nice to have. It’s an escape spell, a utility spell, and even an offensive one by bringing an ally deep behind enemy lines to cause havoc. And as a Warlock, you already have a great combat spell, so your other spells should mostly be about giving you options, which both of the above do quite well.And more DD love.
Yeah, DD is a go.

I now need to decide on Sickening Radiance or GoF. Arrgh.

Thank you all, fine suggestions, good thoughts, much appreciated.

Shadow of Moil - mechanically this is essentially greater invisibility but works against true sight and can't be used for sneaking. It's great if you are primarily an Eldritch Blast warlock. Advantage combined with repelling blast and lance of lethargy is a good combo.
Do I have advantage due to being hidden when I attack with EB?

[MaxWilson]

You are correct. We have a good sized party (when all show up 7 PCs) and we are up against some unknown evil something behind the usurper king and are trying to get the real king back into power. Have just transitioned from a mostly outdoors campaign into dungeon delving a very old elven city that got buried by a volcano like Pompeii and Herculenium did. The CR of the enemies is cranking up rather rapidly as my brother assesses this party's habits.

I explicitly chose to be more support and leave the damage dealing mostly to the others. This has worked out well enough. That's what informs my question; my aim is to make the party more effective and be flexible. I don't have agonzing blast, for example. I prefer the push and pull (Repelling, Hadar's grasp) for moving stuff around the battlefield to support the others).
Good advice, thanks Max.
Our wizard has Polymorph already, and I don't get another invocataion until 9th. I have my tome invocation for rituals, Mage Armor/Armor of Shadows, and two blast invocations for battlefield control: repelling and Hadar's grasp. Each is handy for helping the party do stuff. At 9th I may take that suggestion at 9 when an invocation opens up.

I think it would be better to swap out Armor of Shadows and just wear studded leather. Polymorph is stronger than +1 to AC, and it potentially benefits the whole party. For example, you can Polymorph the wizard into a tanky beast to add an extra front-liner to the party; the Wizard couldn't do that himself because he'd lose concentration after a few hits.

You can re-acquire Armor of Shadows at level 9 if you really miss the +1 to AC.

It is really too bad BTW that Armor of Shadows is self-only. If you could cast it on fellow PCs, conjured Quicklings, Tiny Servants, etc., it would be really good.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it would be better to swap out Armor of Shadows and just wear studded leather. Polymorph is stronger than +1 to AC, and it potentially benefits the whole party. For example, you can Polymorph the wizard into a tanky beast to add an extra front-liner to the party; the Wizard couldn't do that himself because he'd lose concentration after a few hits.

You can re-acquire Armor of Shadows at level 9 if you really miss the +1 to AC.

It is really too bad BTW that Armor of Shadows is self-only. If you could cast it on fellow PCs, conjured Quicklings, Tiny Servants, etc., it would be really good. Hmm, our Bard(Valor) just replaced his studded leather +1 with a +1 breast plate. I'll see if the leather is still available. (One of the rogues might have it already; will find out tonight)

[MaxWilson]

The ASI has me going back and forth between Boosting Cha to 20 and getting Warcaster.
I am heavy on Concentration spells. While my general rule is "max spell casting stat soonest" I have noted that, of late, the DM likes to try and disrupt concentration spells, and he rarely has a single monster confronting us. I'll make the final call tomorrow when the formal level up happens.

Also consider Moderately Armored (AC 16-19 depending on Dex and equipment) or Defensive Duelist (retroactive +3-4 to AC as a reaction when hit) in lieu of Warcaster. Not taking damage is a valid way of protecting concentration.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also consider Moderately Armored (AC 16-19 depending on Dex and equipment) or Defensive Duelist (retroactive +3-4 to AC as a reaction when hit) in lieu of Warcaster. Not taking damage is a valid way of protecting concentration. I have considered that. Dex is 16. For RP reasons, I prefer not to wear armor at all, but I think I can RP-justify a reason to wear leather/studded leather.
The Polymorph option is a good one, but we are once again concentrating, so I think I'll end up with Warcaster.
(I am also hoping like heck to find bracers of defense (+2 to AC) which I'll trade a lot for if someone else wants it also)
Need to review Defensive duelist again, maybe that's a better idea. (And it's a bit off the wall, which I like). I almost always have my +1 dagger handy; holding it for that purpose will not cramp my style otherwise.

[RSP]

Also consider Moderately Armored (AC 16-19 depending on Dex and equipment) or Defensive Duelist (retroactive +3-4 to AC as a reaction when hit) in lieu of Warcaster. Not taking damage is a valid way of protecting concentration.

I’d suggest Res (Con) if a Conc build: getting as close to auto-passing the base DC 10 check is always a priority for any build I play that focuses on maintaining Conc.

Aside from that, Warlock’s have a very good selection of 5th level spells (albeit campaign/RP dependent): Scry, Dream and Synaptic Static are all fantastic. To a lesser extent, I really like Far Step as that BA 60’ teleport is a fantastic way to keep out of harm’s way.

[MaxWilson]

I’d suggest Res (Con) if a Conc build: getting as close to auto-passing the base DC 10 check is always a priority for any build I play that focuses on maintaining Conc.

Aside from that, Warlock’s have a very good selection of 5th level spells (albeit campaign/RP dependent): Scry, Dream and Synaptic Static are all fantastic. To a lesser extent, I really like Far Step as that BA 60’ teleport is a fantastic way to keep out of harm’s way.

I also really like Summon Greater Demon V (Chasme) and Danse Macabre, plus Conjure Elemental if you happen to be a Mark of Storms warlock. A Chasme's drone knocks other creatures unconscious, and then the Chasme flies up and auto-crits like a truck for 22d6+2 (79) HP. It's a DC 12 Con save so the drone doesn't work well against big beefy monsters, but it's great against small groups of beefy monsters since it has a great range (30' radius). Chasmes have a relatively low chance of breaking free of the spell (Cha +0, with advantage), and they're just tough enough to soak up some big enemy hits, but not tough enough to be hard to kill if they do break free. They also have a fairly strong opportunity attack for 11d6+2 (40.5). Their to-hit it kind of low though, only +5.

Vrocks are significantly tankier due to more HP and non-magical weapon immunity, but I'd rather summon an unreliable glass cannon than an unreliable tank.

[Dork_Forge]

Personally I'd vote Dimension Door, if your encounters tend to go longer than 3 rounds then Shadow of Moil is more appealing.


I think it would be better to swap out Armor of Shadows and just wear studded leather. Polymorph is stronger than +1 to AC, and it potentially benefits the whole party. For example, you can Polymorph the wizard into a tanky beast to add an extra front-liner to the party; the Wizard couldn't do that himself because he'd lose concentration after a few hits.

You can re-acquire Armor of Shadows at level 9 if you really miss the +1 to AC.

It is really too bad BTW that Armor of Shadows is self-only. If you could cast it on fellow PCs, conjured Quicklings, Tiny Servants, etc., it would be really good.

RAW Sculptor of Flesh only allows you to cast Polymorph once a day, so it's a very expensive and limited way to access it. Taking SoF also means that he'd still need a new 4th level pick, especially if there's more than one challenging encounter in a day.

[MaxWilson]

RAW Sculptor of Flesh only allows you to cast Polymorph once a day, so it's a very expensive and limited way to access it. Taking SoF also means that he'd still need a new 4th level pick, especially if there's more than one challenging encounter in a day.

For levels 8-10, I'll take a 1/day, 1-hour Polymorph over +1 to AC. Yes, it's tragic that RAW it's only 1/day, but it's still a good strong spell at those levels. The rest of the time he can rely on slightly-weaker-but-still-good spells like Wall of Fire, Banishment, and Sickening Radiance.

BTW it's certainly possible for Polymorph to last for multiple challenging encounters. 157 HP is quite a lot of HP, and 1 hour is a long time. It depends.

[Satori01]

Sickening Radiance. It is another concentration spell, but since it does Radiant damage your Celestial warlock will add their CHA modifier to the damage roll.

Given you have your EB set to "Push/Pull"...great amusement can be engendered by moving people into the area of effect.
The downside is that the AoE is rather large.

It also causes Exhaustion:
Exhaustion Effects
Level Effect
1 Disadvantage on Ability Checks
2 Speed halved
3 Disadvantage on Attack rolls and Saving Throws
4 Hit point maximum halved
5 Speed reduced to 0
6 Death

ASI wise..how about Inspiring Leader, if you don't already have it?

At 10th level with Celestial Resilience, you get Temp HP = to Warlock level +CHA modifier...your party gets Temp HP equal to 1/2 your Warlock level + CHA modifier upon completion of a SR or LR.

One only needs 10 minutes to use inspiring leader, so when one of your partymates is casting a Ritual Spell, you can restock Temp HP, (or given your party size), apply Temp HP to party members that might have been missed the first time around.

The Protector Eldritch Cannon for the Artillerist is still the best Temp HP generator to my knowledge, but I think the Celestial Warlock with Inspiring Leader, can compete for best Temp HP bestower.

[Dork_Forge]

For levels 8-10, I'll take a 1/day, 1-hour Polymorph over +1 to AC. Yes, it's tragic that RAW it's only 1/day, but it's still a good strong spell at those levels. The rest of the time he can rely on slightly-weaker-but-still-good spells like Wall of Fire, Banishment, and Sickening Radiance.

BTW it's certainly possible for Polymorph to last for multiple challenging encounters. 157 HP is quite a lot of HP, and 1 hour is a long time. It depends.

It depends sums it up, whilst it can last for multiple encounters I wouldn't count on it enough to be a selling point:

-It's concentration
-Being a Giant Ape might be problematic between encounters
-Whoever the Polymorphed person is might have abilities that are relevant between encounters that they can't access whilst in Ape form

I agree that Polymorph is a good spell, I just don't personally rate it highly enough to devote an invocation to limited access to it, it should at least give you a once a day free casting. (this was not really about Armor of Shadows vs SoF per se, more the using an invocation for it in general).

[MaxWilson]

It depends sums it up, whilst it can last for multiple encounters I wouldn't count on it enough to be a selling point:

-It's concentration
-Being a Giant Ape might be problematic between encounters
-Whoever the Polymorphed person is might have abilities that are relevant between encounters that they can't access whilst in Ape form

I agree that Polymorph is a good spell, I just don't personally rate it highly enough to devote an invocation to limited access to it, it should at least give you a once a day free casting. (this was not really about Armor of Shadows vs SoF per se, more the using an invocation for it in general).

This ties back into the other thread about recon and scouting. If you already know the locations of several groups of monsters due to Arcane Eye/Chainlock Sprite familiar/whatever, your odds of being able to reuse Polymorph across multiple tough encounters go way up.

I wish Sculptor of Flesh gave you either free casting, or Polymorph as an actual spell known. Either would be enough to persuade me to hang on to it into Tier 3ish.

[KorvinStarmast]

I’d suggest Res (Con) if a Conc build I already have that feat from vHuman. :)

Sickening Radiance. It is another concentration spell, but since it does Radiant damage your Celestial warlock will add their CHA modifier to the damage roll. fair point.

Given you have your EB set to "Push/Pull"...great amusement can be engendered by moving people into the area of effect. Already do that with wall of fire, and I agree that it can get in the way of my allies.

AoE is rather large.
The exhaustion effect allows our fighter with shield master to knock a lot of people down after one turn, eh?

1 Disadvantage on Ability Checks
2 Speed halved
3 Disadvantage on Attack rolls and Saving Throws
If the fight lasts after this, we are likely in the mopping up phase, but it's nice to be able to just abuse an enemy with a huge bag of HP ... but that's where Wall of Force will keep them there a level from now.

4 Hit point maximum halved
5 Speed reduced to 0
6 Death


ASI wise..how about Inspiring Leader, if you don't already have it? Hmm, we do get into battle a lot, this might be handy. I'll discuss with the party ...


This ties back into the other thread about recon and scouting. If you already know the locations of several groups of monsters due to Arcane Eye/Chainlock Sprite familiar/whatever, your odds of being able to reuse Polymorph across multiple tough encounters go way up. I have been nagging our wizard to get Arcane Eye. When he does, what you say here begins to get interesting. :)

And, I did get the +1 Studded Leather, so when I level up, I'll either take the daily polymorph, or, I'll take Devil's Sight since I am the only one without a form of darkvision ... I got nagged last night about 'me and my darned light coin!'

[MaxWilson]

And, I did get the +1 Studded Leather, so when I level up, I'll either take the daily polymorph, or, I'll take Devil's Sight since I am the only one without a form of darkvision ... I got nagged last night about 'me and my darned light coin!'

Oh yeah, in that case definitely take Devil's Sight over Sculptor of Flesh.