Favorite Class Per Tier? (3.5 and Pathfinder) [Archive]

Luccan

2020-09-09, 12:14 PM

For the record I prefer our ranking to 1d4 Chan and I really don’t agree with their pf ranks.

Tier 1 = Witch
Tier 2 = Mystic (PoW class)
Tier 3 = Dragon (DSP monster class) or soulknife (DSP version)
Tier 4 = Paladin
Tier 5 = Divine Mind

Agreed. I'll also be using the forums' retier. And sticking to 3.5, since I've played PF exactly once

On that note, tier 6 seems woefully under represented so far. I'll update my list with others later

Tier 6: Aristocrat*
Good Will saves are nice, has more skills and a generally better list than Commoner or Warrior, and the only way you really lag behind either is in BAB compared to the Warrior. But you have more money and better social skills. It's the superior non-combat option for its tier and can still contribute in combat compared to its peers.

*there has been debate on whether Expert is on the bottom of tier 5 or firmly in tier 6. If it is in tier 6 I generally prefer it to Aristocrat, assuming the other players and DM don't get mad if you pick skills to make yourself a PC instead of picking skills to make yourself a blacksmith.

AvatarVecna

2020-09-09, 12:24 PM

3.5
Artificer. I love the immense flexibility and support of infusions and item crafting.
Sorcerer. Straightforward, tons of support in splats, one of the best lists in the game. Easily customized into whatever you want it to be.
Factotum. Extremely flexible without being overpowered or stepping on too many toes. A wonderful 5th wheel.
Scout. A nice rogue-alternative that still remains competitive.
Marshal. I might be bad, but I'll support my team as best I can.
Commoner. You don't play T6 to be good at things, you play T6 because you wanna struggle and earn everything you get.

DarkOne-Rob

2020-09-09, 12:33 PM

(Pathfinder)

Tier 1 and 2 - Arcanist
Tier 3 and 4 - Either Investigator or Bloodrager. Ranger is fun too
Tier 5 and 6 - Probably Fighter...I don't end up playing these much.

Troacctid

2020-09-09, 03:48 PM

Hmm, okay, here's my list, based on how likely I would be to play one if I were restricted to characters of that tier, using the current tier list.

Tier 1 = Druid
Tier 2 = Beguiler
Tier 3 = Warlock/Warmage (tie)
Tier 4 = Incarnate
Tier 5 = Monk
Tier 6 = Aristocrat

Of course warmage should really be Tier 2, and incarnate should be Tier 3.

Endless Rain

2020-09-09, 04:39 PM

Tier 1: Druid (3.5). I hate playing prepared casters because writing down all my prepared spells takes too long, but Wild Shape somewhat makes up for it. Still, I'd pick almost any T2 class over this.
Tier 2: Sorcerer (Pathfinder). It's powerful, it has lots of spells known, and Bloodlines are really cool.
Tier 3: Shifter (Spheres of Power). It had a lot of competition, but I have a soft spot for transformation-focused classes.
Tier 4: Warlock (3.5). At-will casting is fun, even with the Warlock's limited spell list.
Tier 5: Kineticist (Pathfinder). As one of the few casters in T5, it didn't really have much competition.
Tier 6: Commoner (3.5). If I'm picking one of the worst classes in the game, I'm going to commit to it.

GrayDeath

2020-09-09, 04:51 PM

Hmmmmm, OK

Tier 1: Cleric or Witch (PF)
Tier 2: oracle or Sorcerer (3.5)
Tier 3: Warlock or Warblade, cant decide
Tier 4: Ranger Variants or DFA
Tier 5: Paladin or Marshal
Tier 6: Samurai.

Toliudar

2020-09-09, 06:00 PM

Tier 1: Druid
Tier 2: Psion
Tier 3: Factotum
Tier 4: Wilder
Tier 5: Nothing comes to mind.
Tier 6: Expert

Thurbane

2020-09-09, 06:31 PM

Going by this list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635) (I only play 3.5):

1. Archivist
2. Beguiler
3. Warblade
4. Fighter
5. Dragon Shaman
6. Aristocrat

Anthrowhale

2020-09-09, 07:35 PM

1. Archivist. //So many neat tricks with oddball divine class spells.
2. Spontaneous Cleric. //A non-retarded spell access progression for a spontaneous caster
3. Warlock. //At-will abilities are pretty neat.
4. Generic Warrior. //Quite a versatile fighter-type class.
5. Monk. //Some real potential with splatbook support.
6. Aristocrat. //At least they have good skills.

Golbarg

2020-09-09, 08:09 PM

All Pathfinder

T1 : Wizard - I rarely play T1, but when I do...

T2 : Oracle - I've never like Cleric and Druid; having to choose all your spells everyday from a gigantic list is just tedious (at least, with wizard, you are limited to a spellbook). I love spontaneous casters, and Oracle has all kinds of fluff.

T3 : Bard - The jack of all trades. Plus with archetypes, you can make a bard for everything (although it might change tier at that point; looking at you, Magician).

T4 : Slayer - For a non-caster, this class has a surprising amount to it. Full BAB, load of skills, studied target, sneak attack. Loads of options to get creative, with your build and in-game.

T5 : Swashbuckler - My guilty pleasure. Can't really explain why, just love it.

T6 : Commoner - I've successfully played one for 6ish sessions before the other players realized I was a bogstandard commoner with a couple magic items.

Particle_Man

2020-09-09, 08:55 PM

Going by the examples in the link provided by the OP:

Tier 1: Cleric. They can be customized. They have faith for rp purposes. They are powerful and versatile as all get out.
Tier 2: Psion (shaper). I was very impressed with the metaphyiscal creation ideas here (and astral construct is the jewel in the crown).
Tier 3: Crusader. I love the mechanic of regaining maneuvers here. The randomness from round to round keeps it fresh, but you usually have something awesome to do.
Tier 4: Warlock. So. much. flavour. And it is a no-paperwork magic-user. Just zap all day long and don't keep track of zaps (or other invocations)!
Tier 5: tie between Fighter and Soul Knife. Gun to my head I would say Soul Knife. Because Star Wars and laser swords and all.
Tier 6: Samurai - at least it has flavour. And if the whole party is at this tier we could actually run . . . The Seven Samurai! 😀

Kelb_Panthera

2020-09-10, 12:08 AM

T1 - Artificer. Wizard was close but the sheer variety of things you can do with straight artificer is just too enticing.

T2 - Psion. Again, flexibility carries the day. It's also practically the definition of a T2 class, unless you go erudite.

T3 - Totemist. Incarnum is my favorite subsystem.

T4 - I'm gonna say paladin but this one's a really tough choice. Lots of fun at this tier.

T5 - fighter probably my favorite class. Not entirely sure T5 is actually the right tier, tbqh.

T6 - Monk. .🎵everybody was Kung fu fighting🎵

GrayDeath

2020-09-10, 01:17 PM

Monk aint T6 though, not by any way of measurement. It gets too much stuff for it (and all good saves and a not bad Skill List).

TalonOfAnathrax

2020-09-10, 02:15 PM

Tier 1 = Sha'ir. It's nice and flavorful, and it can be optimized in ways that I particularly like despite the limitation on how long a prepared spell can be retained.

Tier 2 = Beguiler.
Less powerful than Sorcerer at high level, but so incredibly fun to play! It's a skillmonkey with all the power of convenience of spontaneous arcane spellcasting!

Tier 3 = Binder.
At low levels this class just isn't very fun to play, but once you get Zceryll it's absolutely great! Fun RP opportunities abound too.

Tier 4 = Incarnate.
It's adaptable, it can do its thing all day, and with a proper Dissolving Spittle + Share Soulmeld build you get all the fun of rolling oodles of D6 at your opponents like an optimized rogue!
It also Theurges very well with more classes, and is amazing in Gestalt. Both of those fall outside of T4 though.

Tier 5 = Dragon Shaman.
The all-day Healing Aura is just excellent, especially in E6 games, games that don't follow the 15 minute adventuring day rule or days that feature anything resembling mass combat. You want to raise an angry mob against the vampire? Well you have social skills and buffing auras, go to town!
The fire breath is much weaker than a Dragonfire Adept, but it's nice too.

Tier 6 = Aristocrat
It gets some social skills, at least...

Kelb_Panthera

2020-09-10, 11:30 PM

Monk aint T6 though, not by any way of measurement. It gets too much stuff for it (and all good saves and a not bad Skill List).

It is. That doesn't mean you can't build one that works well but its features are a grab-bag of passive and active defensive abilities with precious little mobility and offensive abilities that don't synergize at all. Between that and being too MAD to actually make better than average use of those abilities, including the only modestly decent skill list, it's just not really great at anything if he focuses on it and is barely a passable PC class if he doesn't.

It's one of my favorite classes and most of the warriors I build at least take a dip but it's mechanically at the bottom of the PC class barrel. If the NPC classes didn't exist, it would probably be the single weakest base class in the game.

Saintheart

2020-09-11, 12:27 AM

1. Cleric. Comes in so many different flavours and customisable day by day.
2. Beguiler.
3. Warblade.
4. Fighter. At least they get their own bonus feats.
5. OA Samurai, because Ancestral Weapons are fun.
6. Housecat (it can kill Commoners).

Kurald Galain

2020-09-11, 12:36 AM

1) Wizard
2) Oracle
3) Magus, not that that should surprise anyone
4) Ninja (PF)
5) Spellthief; I really love the concept but it SO doesn't work in practice

Waazraath

2020-09-11, 04:44 AM

1) Cleric
2) Psion
3) Binder
4) Ranger
5) Paladin
6) Aristocrat

tier 3 is the most difficult for me; bards, duskblades, martial adepts are all also very fun classes.

liquidformat

2020-09-11, 11:57 AM

This is based on what I play

Tier 1 = Druid
Tier 2 = Mystic Ranger
Tier 3 = Wild Shape Ranger
Tier 4 = Tie between Barbarian/Rogue/Ranger
Tier 5 = Swashbuckler
Tier 6 = Warrior

stack

2020-09-11, 12:10 PM

Tricky; what I actually use tends very strongly toward tier 3-4.

1. Druid, I guess? Shapeshifting is fun.
2. Thaumaturge (Spheres of Power, assuming liberal access to advanced talents. Preferably the wild mage or soulfire master) Narrow focus, big effects.
3. Prodigy (Spheres of Power/Might) - Coolest thing I ever wrote. Works for so many concepts.
4. Paladin (PF version)
5. N/A
6. N/A

AvatarVecna

2020-09-11, 12:39 PM

Oh yeah, PF answers:
Arcanist. 5e spell prep with 3.X power
Oracle. Deliciously flavorful and lots of fun options for hyperfocusing
Conscript. SoM is fantastic and this is the kind of ultimate flexibility the Fighter fluff wanted to be but never delivered on.
Slayer. It's kinda like a single-class version of 3.5's Swift Hunter. Sorta.
Rogue (Phantom Thief). Not great for combat, but it's essentially Expert+ which can be absolutely fantastic.
Commoner. You don't play T6 to be good at things.

Wildstag

2020-09-11, 02:40 PM

Cleric
Mystic Ranger
Beguiler (Psychic Warrior is close though)
Scout
Fighter
Do people actually play this tier?

GrayDeath

2020-09-12, 03:46 PM

It is. That doesn't mean you can't build one that works well but its features are a grab-bag of passive and active defensive abilities with precious little mobility and offensive abilities that don't synergize at all. Between that and being too MAD to actually make better than average use of those abilities, including the only modestly decent skill list, it's just not really great at anything if he focuses on it and is barely a passable PC class if he doesn't.

It's one of my favorite classes and most of the warriors I build at least take a dip but it's mechanically at the bottom of the PC class barrel. If the NPC classes didn't exist, it would probably be the single weakest base class in the game.

Bold:
Your citing a classic T 5.
From the Definition: ...Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything....

T 6 is nonfunctional Level of Bad.
NPC Class Level of "gets you nothing".
Its "even if you try hard, you cant do anything remotely well, and need DM help".
Is it possible to build a Monk that fits in T6? Sure. As it is possible to build a Wizard that fits in the Top of T3 by only taking Utility Spells and multiclassing into barbarian before getting Level 7 Spells.

Aside from the sheer dishonesty (I cant imagine you forgot, seeming you like the class^^) of saying a Monk had "precious little mopbility", given that it is the fastest of all Classes (even with magic you need to stack buffs to get that fast, or races and templates). What class that doesnt get Fly as a spell has "mobility" as you define it? Really curious.

Calming down....

So no, Monk is NOT T6 unless your Definition of T6 is vastly different than the one we are using in the thread (be it JarodKs or Giantitps), and in both cases that placement does not fit the thread, as it can only be workable if all participants use the same Tier List.

Edea

2020-09-12, 05:28 PM

Tier 1: Wizard
Tier 2: Psion
Tier 3: Beguiler
Tier 4: Warlock
Tier 5: Fighter
Tier 6: Aristocrat

Kelb_Panthera

2020-09-13, 03:30 AM

-snip-

To be charitable, I'll assume you're misreading what I said rather than deliberately misrepresenting it with your bolded selections.

First, that's not <passive> <active> and <defensive> abillities. It's <passive defensive> and <active defensive>. The class offensive options barely exist and aren't very powerful even if you focus on them at the expense of other class abilities.

The skill list is okay. It's not great but it's not, say, the incarnate's list. The problem is that with only 4 +int you're not getting enough from it and none of the skills on the list except diplomacy can actually accomplish anything rather than merely prevent things. Even then, MADness means you're either getting even less from the list or hurting some other class ability(s).

On mobility,

The speed bonus is nice. It'd be a hell of a lot nicer if it weren't an enhancement bonus and stacked with anything. Tumble helps here too, if you've got the skill points for it. Lucky enough it's one of the better skills on the list if you're not trying to hit prerequisites on too many things. As for for claim of fastest though, it's actually second place behind Oriental Adventures' Blade Dancer prestige class,which simply changes your base speed to the same degree and, thus, stacks with everything including monk levels. Unfortunately, that's all monk gives you except the absolutely anemic abundant step and empty body features, both of which are handily outdone by feats. And that's without even considering that something as cheap as speed armor giving you a +30 ft boost for a few rounds a day if you're -not- a monk. Stack a couple (armor, shield, dastana) and some boots of speed and you're as fast as a 9th level monk for as long as it's likely to actually matter, assuming you haven't picked up any other speed boosts.

At the end of the day, it ain't much; no alternate movement modes, no easing of movement restrictions, just the speed and tumble. At least you can't screw this up unless you wear armor.

On offensive options

The unarmed strike feature is actually pretty sweet. It's not nearly enough on its own but it's at least a solid foundation to build on.

Flurry doesn't suck but it largely just gets you to par compared to a normal warrior wrt number of attacks on average. You're still less likely to hit.

Which brings us to the bad; nothing in the class actually gives you any to-hit bonus over and above the normal BAB +str. Average BAB and MAD character str. Unarmed strike needs either a particular ruling wrt gauntlets or some fairly obscure equipment to actually get an enhancement bonus. Fighter; so many feats to get more and better hits. Barbarian; rage. Ranger; favored enemy and its variants. Monk; good luck, buddy. There's a reason people mock the class by calling the flurry of blows "flurry of misses."

Shivering palm once a week is a bad joke. Bog-standard fort vs death -if- you hit with an unarmed strike. It's wasted if you miss -or- they save. At level 15 and on the most MAD class in the PHB, are you freakin' kiddin' me?

Ki strike gives you nothing you shouldn't already have and have had by the time you get it except the magic effect at level 4 that's barely a level early.

And that's it...

It'd be one thing and solidly T5 of it was -just- a grab bag of things that didn't synergize well but most of this stuff actively gets in the way of other features or game basics. You can force it to work and even work together if you optimize hard enough but the class itself is actively working against you the whole way. That's why it's T6.

Now if you -do- work past those problems successfully; get some swift movement, a necklace of natural attacks, pick a race with good ability bonuses, etc; you can make a solid character, something that might even warrant calling T5. If you go ham with ACFs and draw from all sources, you might even make a T4 character but that's the player part of "player > build > class." The class itself is T6.

And it -is- one of my favorite classes. I love the aesthetic and I can make it work in spite of its flaws. Getting past those problems requires that you first acknowledge those problems.

Anthrowhale

2020-09-13, 09:01 AM

If you go ham with ACFs and draw from all sources, you might even make a T4 character but that's the player part of "player > build > class." The class itself is T6.
Monk is one of those classes (like Spellthief) that works much better with a little bit of support from the party which the tier system doesn't really take into account. Greater Mighty Wallop, Owl's Insight, Greater Magic Weapon, and Intuitive Attack makes a fairly capable fighting monk, no ACFs or race choice required. At monk 20, your attack routine is +15(BAB)+15(Wis)+5(enhance)=+35/+35/+35/+30/+25 with 12d8(!) damage and a DC 35(!) stunning fist with a 16 starting wisdom, +6 wis enhance, +5 wis tome, and stat boosts to wisdom. This alone is enough to make you a lethal threat to CR20 monsters, and of course a monk has pretty good defenses as well.

Particle_Man

2020-09-13, 11:36 AM

Kurald Galain

2020-09-13, 11:42 AM

My favorite debate per tier is definitely the monk debate. There are soooo many arguments being brought up that I have just never seen before, it's astounding!

AvatarVecna

2020-09-13, 11:50 AM

My favorite debate per tier is definitely the monk debate. There are soooo many arguments being brought up that I have just never seen before, it's astounding!

Monk is tier 1 because a monk is so "not quite good enough" at everything that the mere presence of a monk in the party causes the DM to subconsciously dumb down all encounters and challenges so the monk player doesn't constantly feel useless or overshadowed, and gets to feel like a real member of the party. Having a monk in the party does at least as much to let the party breeze through encounters as playing a well-made wizard or cleric or druid.

Troacctid

2020-09-13, 02:17 PM

My favorite debate per tier is definitely the monk debate. There are soooo many arguments being brought up that I have just never seen before, it's astounding!
My favorite debates per tier, based on what tier people are arguing the class should be:
1. Urban Druid
2. Warmage
3. Incarnate
4. Factotum
5. Wild Monk
6. Soulknife

The npc class expert is listed in the OP as tier five. I don’t think that an expert is an entire tier better than a monk.
Oh, the expert should 100% be in T6. It has no right to be in T5, given that it's actively worse than aristocrat. The adept has no business being above a T5 either. I may have gotten outvoted, but we all know I'm right.

tiercel

2020-09-14, 05:44 AM

1: Wizard. I like playing high-Int more than high-Wis, for.... reasons... and Wizards are iconic, and I like collecting spells (and the whole “I have access to my whole class spell list, plus, oh, like, no real weaknesses” thing of Clerics and Druids feels too...easy-cheesy to me philosophically, and as a practical matter, leads to too much analysis paralysis on my part for daily spellpicking if I don’t just settle on a standard loadout for most adventuring days).

2: Spirit Shaman. I actually kind of like Druids in principle except they feel... too much for me in the whole Ridiculously Good at Everything department. SS still gets druid spells, their own flavorful and mechanical spin, a weird but cool spell retrieval mechanism... and yeah, OK, the “access to my whole spell list” thing is, for me, mitigated by the more limited daily access (you really want to pick spells you can very happily spam with SS).

3: BARD! Bards. Are. Awesome. Bards can be built to do any of a number of things, but without necessarily being able to do EVERYthing (unlike, e.g. Druidzilla) - the key is not try to be too jack-of-all-trades. Adventure with panache! I will note that T3 is both generally a sweet spot for me with a lot of likable specific options for classes and builds.

4: Rogue. I’m a sucker for the archetype, whether it’s a “heist” adventure or a hero who lives by his wits without necessarily stomping all over the natural laws of the Universe to do it. Sometimes it’s more satisfying to try to win without just “apply spell X” (though having a few UMD options for a rainy day is still more than handy). I also have a real weakness for the whole Swashbuckler persona, which arguably with Daring Outlaw lands here.

5: Fighter. Given the amount of time most games spend on the battlemat, having a tactical blank slate you can fill in with feats and PrCs for a certain combat style or two is actually useful in many games that aren’t necessarily that high level and/or high-op. It’s not that the class itself has a lot going for it per se, but that you can take it in many different directions.

GrayDeath

2020-09-14, 03:42 PM

The npc class expert is listed in the OP as tier five. I don’t think that an expert is an entire tier better than a monk.

So if you making a “retier the classes” argument in general there are threads for that, but the OP, and majority of posters on this thread, seem to retain the opinion that monk is tier 5.

That.

But then again, you seem of the opinion that your opinion of where a class is supersedes the Tier List we are using to answer a question in this thread.

I wont go all the way and argue against, as that is not the topic.

But if someone opens a "DISCUSS Tiers and why would you put a class there" I`d love to reopen this Topic. ;)

NigelWalmsley

2020-09-14, 05:17 PM

1. Wizard. It's hugely customizable, get a range of impactful abilities, and has the tools to handle pretty much anything.
2. Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. I view these as being basically the same. The Dread Necromancer has a slightly higher level of baseline power, while the Beguiler is better if your DM doesn't nerf Illusions and Enchantments. Both have the tools to work well in basically any party once you start factoring in Rainbow Servant-style shenanigans. I find the Warmage falls short because it's base spell list is really weak.
3. Warblade. Crusader too, but I like the Warblade's refresh mechanic better. ToB characters are basically the only Fighter-types I'd consider playing.
4. Rogue. The best non-caster skillmonkey. You get a bunch of skills, and optimized sneak attack does enough damage to be competitive.

I don't really consider most of the stuff at T5 and below to be PC classes. When the highest-ranked class in the tier is Truenamer, you've got a problem.

Monk is tier 1 because a monk is so "not quite good enough" at everything that the mere presence of a monk in the party causes the DM to subconsciously dumb down all encounters and challenges so the monk player doesn't constantly feel useless or overshadowed, and gets to feel like a real member of the party. Having a monk in the party does at least as much to let the party breeze through encounters as playing a well-made wizard or cleric or druid.

I have seen people make basically this exact point in complete seriousness. I recall a thread somewhere (I can't remember if here or elsewhere) where someone claimed that the Monk was a valuable contributor because people would be less likely to try to disable him (because he's a Monk and Monks suck), so he was more likely to be the one to kill monsters and more likely to survive when the rest of the party was wiped out.

Particle_Man

2020-09-14, 08:56 PM

I have seen people make basically this exact point in complete seriousness. I recall a thread somewhere (I can't remember if here or elsewhere) where someone claimed that the Monk was a valuable contributor because people would be less likely to try to disable him (because he's a Monk and Monks suck), so he was more likely to be the one to kill monsters and more likely to survive when the rest of the party was wiped out.

I believe that in earlier editions the kobold race basically had the racial power of "I suck so much that people will usually ignore me in combat". So I guess . . . a kobold monk?

Lans

2020-09-15, 01:26 AM

My favorite debates per tier, based on what tier people are arguing the class should be:

Oh, the expert should 100% be in T6. It has no right to be in T5, given that it's actively worse than aristocrat. The adept has no business being above a T5 either. I may have gotten outvoted, but we all know I'm right.

The problem is the places where the aristocrat is better are things that are easily dismissed. While the expert can have any skill he wants and people over look that its not any skill, its any 10 skills and that it only gets 6 skill points a level.

Rerednaw

2020-09-15, 05:48 AM

1. Wizard
2. Psion
...
4. Dragonfire Adept (was it T4 or 5? whatever I've always liked playing the Dragon side of D&D)
5. Kineticist...not quite warlock, not quite DFA...but the closest you'll get to an at-will caster in PF 1E.

Troacctid

2020-09-15, 10:16 AM

The problem is the places where the aristocrat is better are things that are easily dismissed. While the expert can have any skill he wants and people over look that its not any skill, its any 10 skills and that it only gets 6 skill points a level.
Yeah, but if you think about the actual skills you're gonna pick, most of the best ones are already on the aristocrat's skill list too. What is the expert doing that's more powerful than Diplomacy and Bluff combined? And if it's doing the same thing, well, it's just an aristocrat who's worse at combat, which is the worst possible thing to be worse at.

Lans

2020-09-15, 11:48 AM

Yeah, but if you think about the actual skills you're gonna pick, most of the best ones are already on the aristocrat's skill list too. What is the expert doing that's more powerful than Diplomacy and Bluff combined? And if it's doing the same thing, well, it's just an aristocrat who's worse at combat, which is the worst possible thing to be worse at.

I don't think people look at it and think it's worse in combat, they look at it as basically the same due to the low value people put on proficiency and the slightly higher HD.

NigelWalmsley

2020-09-15, 04:45 PM

What is the expert doing that's more powerful than Diplomacy and Bluff combined?

UMD and Iaijutsu Focus. Also, the Aristocrat's margin in combat is pretty tiny. You get 1 extra HP per level and you get to use slightly better weapons. Conversely, UMD is probably T3 or T4 on its own.

Thurbane

2020-09-15, 05:02 PM

UMD and Iaijutsu Focus. Also, the Aristocrat's margin in combat is pretty tiny. You get 1 extra HP per level and you get to use slightly better weapons. Conversely, UMD is probably T3 or T4 on its own.

Yep, having access to every skill in the game (or any ten of those, at least) definitely has some advantages.

Build Challenge - Human Expert 9 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617778)

StreamOfTheSky

2020-09-15, 05:26 PM

T1: Druid - only primary caster I really even like; I love the strong nature theme, the fact you can turn them into melee combatants (my preferred style) even though its suboptimal, and how utterly kinky and BDSM-like their spells and abilities are overall...if you ever want to physically restrain somebody, Druid's got you covered!

T2: Oracle, I guess? At least their curses make them interesting. If the "Arcane Swordsage" actually existed, it'd presumably be tier 2 and I'd like it the most.

T3: Now this is tough... Tie between Wildshape Ranger, Swordsage, and Warblade? I also really like Factotum...
T3 (PF): Alchemist, much as I despise how gimped their extracts are (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pr7l?Suggestion-Extracts-are-spells#9) and wish that they could just be spells instead (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pr7l?Suggestion-Extracts-are-spells)

T4: Rogue - This and Monk are my favorite classes. Many of my characters have at least some Rogue in them.

T5: Monk - This and Rogue are my favorite classes. Many of my characters have at least some Monk in them.

T6: Uh...Aristrocrat?

Temotei

2020-09-15, 05:38 PM

Sure, I'll participate. Using this list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635).

1: Cleric.
2: Spirit shaman. Psion is very close, but only because spirit shaman got basically no support outside of its source and its mechanics could use a little touch-up.
3: Swordsage. Has some of my favorite classes--bard, swordsage, crusader, warmage, binder, warblade, and psychic rogue--so this was a hard choice.
4: Incarnate.
5: Hexblade.
6: Aristocrat, I guess.

calam

2020-09-15, 11:10 PM

this is both pathfinder and 3.5, I'll note if the edition matters

tier 1: druid (they're so much easier to pilot than other tier 1s)
tier 2: pf sorcerer (the bloodlines actually give flavor)
tier 3:binder(I'm a sucker for niche subsystems)
tier 4:split between hexblade for flavor and slayer for being the only martial class I found dynamic enough to be interesting
tier 5:D&D paladin (for flavor, D&D specifically because I think pf paladin is considered tier 4)
tier 6: warrior (only because of how much it makes me sad about fighters by comparison)

BlackLamb

2020-09-16, 06:59 PM

Tier 1: Druid

It excels at everything so easily and even if you forget some aspect of your class, you're still pulling your weight.

Tier 2: Erudite

Psionics that can respec a little more easily without suffering from option paralysis.

Tier 3: Bard

A customizable class, that's customizable in a direction. You can build it badly, but it's easy to build it competently.

Tier 4:

Wild Monk

Kung Fu Panda is awesome. Once this class gets going its very much what I wish the regular Monk was.

Tier 5:

Battle Dancer

Another better version of the Monk. It fights better right off the bat and has some cool Bard type options while somehow feeling sillier than singing at your enemies.

My favorite Tier arguments in no particular order are

Wilder
Monk
Shugenja
Truenamer
Artificer

Telonius

2020-09-16, 09:17 PM

For 3.5.

From the original list:
Favorite Tier 1: Artificer.
Tier 2: Sorcerer
Tier 3: Bard, with Beguiler as an extremely close second.
Tier 4: Warlock, with Rogue as an extremely close second.
Tier 5: Monk
Tier 6: Commoner if the April Fools' flaws are active. Aristocrat if not.

From the updated (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635) Tier list:

Tier 1: Artificer
Tier 2: Beguiler
Tier 3: Bard, with Warlock as an extremely close second.
Tier 4: Rogue
Tier 5: Monk
Tier 6: Commoner if the April Fools' flaws are active. Aristocrat if not.

Temotei

2020-09-17, 08:59 PM

I remember olden times when cross-class ranks in UMD were standard in monk discussions. :smallamused:

Troacctid

2020-09-17, 09:53 PM

I remember olden times when cross-class ranks in UMD were standard in monk discussions. :smallamused:
Ah, but now we live in a post-MIC world. You don't need UMD to be a WBLmancer anymore.

Kelb_Panthera

2020-09-18, 12:02 AM

Ah, but now we live in a post-MIC world. You don't need UMD to be a WBLmancer anymore.

Never did. MIC just made it less of a dumpster dive.

Aracor

2020-09-18, 12:57 PM

3.5 only, not familiar enough with Pathfinder
From the updated tier list

Tier 1: Wizard - my favorite class/archtype of all time
Tier 2: Beguiler - basically wizard + rogue in one. spells and skills!
Tier 3: Psychic Rogue - rogue+
Tier 4: Rogue - I have a soft spot for the rogue
Tier 5: Dragon Shaman - honestly not much in this tier appeals to me
Tier 6: Aristocrat - why not? i hate this one the least.

Unavenger

2020-09-19, 05:53 AM

Probably cleric; psion (or sorcerer in 1PP pathfinder); either pathfinder inquisitor or I guess something like psyrogue in 3.5; paladin or something like that built to be T4; paladin or something like that not built to be T4; and I would really rather be a samurai than anything else listed as T6 even if samurai is... bad - in PF I guess I have to be a warrior because samurai is too cool for T6 there.

Truenamer in 3.5 replaces whatever option you personally think it occupies because I'm not willing to explain one more time how the slightly-bad-but-also-good-in-other-ways 2/3 caster is not actually T6 no matter how hard you try to make it.

Ignimortis

2020-09-19, 06:04 AM

What's your guys' favorite class at each tier level?

Here are mine:

Tier 1 = Wizard
Tier 2 = Sorcerer
Tier 3 = Stalker (Path of War Class)
Tier 4 = Unchained Monk
Tier 5 = Fighter (Particularly Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype)
Tier 6 = None of them lmao

Tier 1 = Arcanist, though honestly I dislike this tier a lot and the best I can say is "I kind of appreciate the Arcanist's design"
Tier 2 = Sorcerer if we go by the old tiers, Beguiler if we go by updated GitP ones
Tier 3 = Harbinger (Path of War Class) - though I like a lot of classes from here, Warblade is also super close
Tier 4 = Scout or Warmage
Tier 5 = Gunslinger
Tier 6 = Seeing as we're choosing from like 3 classes, I'd vote for Aristocrat.

PoeticallyPsyco

2020-09-19, 11:38 PM

T3 is really tricky to decide, since that's where Crusader, Totemist, and Warlock all sit. And I don't really have enough experience with the top tiers to pick favorites.

T4 is probably Spellthief, for me. It's a cool character concept.

T5... maybe Hexblade? Or maybe Dragon Shaman.

T6 I once again have no experience in, but I like that you can turn Expert into a bunch of different things.

Cerefel

2020-09-20, 03:41 AM

In terms of single-classed characters in 3.5:

Tier 1: Druid
Gets to be good at all of the obvious things like damage and bfc, but serious high-op shenanigans are much less obvious options, so I don't feel obligated to abuse things like demiplanes, astral projection, etc. but I still have access to them should I absolutely need them.

Tier 2: Beguiler
Highly flexible problem solver with regards to skill checks, utility spells, social encounters, battlefield control, and even some buffs, but still has a well-defined weakness in terms of direct damage that can be very interesting and satisfying to try to work around.

Tier 3: Warlock?
Difficult choice since I love basically every class in this tier, but warlock just barely comes out on top for me. They're quite varied in terms of potential builds, and they can really do a surprisingly good job of scratching the itch of wanting to play a utility caster when you're not in the mood to play something with actual spells. Also glaivelocks are very fun and cool.

Tier 4: Ranger
Can be a pretty effective frontline fighting class without giving up all noncombat utility to do so. Has a great number of skill points with a great list, can cast a few neat spells, and gets a pet that could be used for scouting, tracking, threat detection, and/or being a halfway decent flanking buddy in combat. What's not to like?

Tier 5: Monk
Very flavorful, and if built well can be reasonably useful in combat while still having some useful skills and tricks in other situations. They can also be quite varied in how they're built since they have a lot of different class features they can focus on building around.

Tier 6: Commoner
There's something really unique about trying to build a commoner that can make the game feel a little more grounded and realistic in terms of how dangerous an adventuring situation would actually be for a regular person. There's also something really satisfying about trying to make a capable adventurer with just feats and racial abilities.

I would also do a list for PF but I haven't run across a sensible tier list for it yet

Skyrender

2020-11-16, 12:03 PM

Tier 1: Artificer. I love the StP Erudite, but I gotta get my mad scientist on.

Tier 2: Sorcerer. Tough choice here, as Psion puts up a good fight (especially the Erudite, which is a Psion variant, not a different class!).

Tier 3: Lots of classes here that I absolutely love. I love the crusader, duskblade, and warblade for the magic swordsman/anime protagonist feel. I like the factotum for its sheer versatility. For play, any of these is my friend. On the other hand, for my upcoming isekai tensei, after next week's meeting with Truck-kun, I would probably ask for the beguiler, because... reasons (skills AND magic).

Tier 4: Again, lots of favorites: rogue, scout, warlock, warmage. Probably warmage, then at level 5 switch to rainbow servant and eventually fiend-blooded... Oops! Forget I said anything!

Tier 5: Fighter. Solid chassis you can take a lot of different directions. Like the swashbuckler (might dip at level 1 for skills, then level 2 at level 6 so I can get daring warrior), but it's very niche, and not all DMs are willing to accommodate it. Love the soulknife, but it's worthless against undead and constructs, which turn up with truly alarming frequency in any game I get into.

Tier 6: Aristocrat. Mighht as well have money and power on my side, right?

Psyren

2020-11-17, 02:09 PM

T1: StP Erudite conceptually, Druid to actually play
T2: Oracle
T3: Whichever one I'm currently playing (Alchemist atm)
T4: Whichever one I played most recently (Warlock? Shadowcaster?)
T5: Kineticist

Adamantrue

2020-11-17, 07:56 PM

3.5, using this list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)).

Tier 1: Wizard - My least favorite Tier, I only play here when I'm forced to. More specifically, I prefer Conjurers.

Tier 2: Sorcerer - My second-least favorite Tier, I feel like Sorcerers are the most limited in this range, which I enjoy more than the others.

Tier 3: Dread Necromancer - These guys grew on me when DMing, and while I still like them for that purpose, familiarity made them enjoyable as a PC.

Tier 4: Rogue - I have a lot of options in this Tier that I enjoy, and if you asked me a year ago, or ask me again a year from now, I may list any one of them instead.

Tier 5: Fighter - My favorite Tier to play, I had a hard time choosing between Fighter, Knight, Monk, Ninja (CW), Paladin, Soulknife, and Swashbuckler. Success probably made the final decision, as my favorite characters played over the years have leaned heavily on Fighter. They deserved more love from Tome of Battle, instead of being more-or-less replaced by Warblades.

Tier 6: Samurai (CW) - I really think this should have been in Tier 5, especially if Gestalt play should be a factor. Combine it with Swordsage, Dread Necromancer, or Sorcerer, and tell me the end result isn't awesome and fun.

Luccan

2020-11-17, 08:21 PM

3.5, using this list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)).
Tier 6: Samurai (CW) - I really think this should have been in Tier 5, especially if Gestalt play should be a factor. Combine it with Swordsage, Dread Necromancer, or Sorcerer, and tell me the end result isn't awesome and fun.

Emphasis mine.

There's a reason so many people have tried to redo the tier list. It has flaws that are mostly the result of the OP's personal biases (though I think putting it together in the first place was still largely helpful)

Adamantrue

2020-11-17, 09:08 PM

There's a reason so many people have tried to redo the tier list. It has flaws that are mostly the result of the OP's personal biases (though I think putting it together in the first place was still largely helpful)

I dunno, I think the Samurai and Divine Mind were the only ones that could truly be considered errors (in my opinion), and there is a reasonable argument for them to have been in that Tier. Had it been divided slightly more, say 7 or 8 Tiers, it probably would have balanced out.

Despite the alternative lists that have been out there, the Original has seemed the most reliable to me.

Troacctid

2020-11-17, 10:41 PM

I dunno, I think the Samurai and Divine Mind were the only ones that could truly be considered errors (in my opinion), and there is a reasonable argument for them to have been in that Tier. Had it been divided slightly more, say 7 or 8 Tiers, it probably would have balanced out.

Despite the alternative lists that have been out there, the Original has seemed the most reliable to me.
Healer is also egregiously mis-tiered in the original list, as are beguiler, dread necromancer, truenamer, and warmage. All of their entries read like they were written by someone who didn't bother to look at their spell lists before assigning a rating.

Adamantrue

2020-11-17, 10:50 PM

Healer is also egregiously mis-tiered in the original list, as are beguiler, dread necromancer, truenamer, and warmage. All of their entries read like they were written by someone who didn't bother to look at their spell lists before assigning a rating.

In my experience, Truenamer is the only one I can't say seems about right (I don't think I've ever seen a Truenamer in action). That's based largely on what tricks they can pull off, compared to a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, for example.

I mean, sure, it can be some nasty, nasty stuff, but I haven't seen it on the same level.

But as I said, that's how its seemed to work out for me.

PoeticallyPsyco

2020-11-18, 01:27 AM

In fairness, the original rated Truenamers so badly due to poor design and editing, and noted that an optimized Truenamer sits at about T4. ...Or maybe that was just the first one I read, but I think it was the original.

Anyway, when I first posted my picks, I left off T1 and T2. Having given it some more thought, I'll say that my favorite T2 is Dread Necromancer (using the new tier list), and my favorite T1 is Sha'ir, because it opens a lot of doors when theurging. Because it gets both spell requirements out of the way at level 1 with Precocious Apprentice, you can enter Mystic Theurge as early as 4th level, using that as filler until you meet the requirements for a more specific theurge class. (E.g. Sha'ir 2/ Warlock 1/ Mystic Theurge 2/ Eldritch Theurge X).

Gnaeus

2020-11-18, 07:30 AM

Healer is also egregiously mis-tiered in the original list, as are beguiler, dread necromancer, truenamer, and warmage. All of their entries read like they were written by someone who didn't bother to look at their spell lists before assigning a rating.

Hey. I argued hard that beguiler should’ve been T2 before I wrote the beguiler entry. I just didn’t want it written by someone who thought it was nothing but an entry class for shadow craft gnomes. When the argument was done and JaronK made the decision all that was left was to write the best “why beguiler is in T3” blurb I could.

Thunder999

2020-11-18, 01:06 PM

The lower rating for the fixed list casters simply assume you actually stay in that class, no list expanded prestige classes and therefore have to actually deal with the fact that their lists are pretty narrow and redundant, the beguiler has plenty of mind affecting enchantments and illusions, but very little that works against enemies immune to both, later tier lists just assume that everyone has somehow crammed a bunch of obscure list expanding options in there.

Troacctid

2020-11-18, 06:38 PM

Hey. I argued hard that beguiler should’ve been T2 before I wrote the beguiler entry. I just didn’t want it written by someone who thought it was nothing but an entry class for shadow craft gnomes. When the argument was done and JaronK made the decision all that was left was to write the best “why beguiler is in T3” blurb I could.
Well, I'm exaggerating somewhat. But you can tell that's where the low rankings are coming from. Case in point right here:

The lower rating for the fixed list casters simply assume you actually stay in that class, no list expanded prestige classes and therefore have to actually deal with the fact that their lists are pretty narrow and redundant, the beguiler has plenty of mind affecting enchantments and illusions, but very little that works against enemies immune to both, later tier lists just assume that everyone has somehow crammed a bunch of obscure list expanding options in there.
Hard to imagine anyone who actually paid attention to the spells on the list would be saying stuff like this about them. Maybe if it were someone who also thought very poorly of the God Wizard strategy in general, I guess, but you gotta figure at that point they're gonna have other issues with the tier list.

Unavenger

2020-11-18, 06:46 PM

Well, I'm exaggerating somewhat. But you can tell that's where the low rankings are coming from. Case in point right here:

Hard to imagine anyone who actually paid attention to the spells on the list would be saying stuff like this about them. Maybe if it were someone who also thought very poorly of the God Wizard strategy in general, I guess, but you gotta figure at that point they're gonna have other issues with the tier list.

I'm looking at the spell list right now and apart from the odd debuff and a few niche spells here and there, I would say that "Plenty of mind-affecting enchantments and illusions, but very little that works against enemies immune to both" is pretty accurate. Slow, Halt and Solid Fog are useful, but I would reject the premise that a few decent utility and nerf spells and some MA stuff are enough to make you T2. Where are my planar bindings and polymorphs?

EDIT: No, of course "Slow, halt, and solid fog" is not the entirety of every useful spell the beguiler has that isn't MA, don't try to say I said that before anyone does.

Troacctid

2020-11-18, 07:07 PM

I'm looking at the spell list right now and apart from the odd debuff and a few niche spells here and there, I would say that "Plenty of mind-affecting enchantments and illusions, but very little that works against enemies immune to both" is pretty accurate. Slow, Halt and Solid Fog are useful, but I would reject the premise that a few decent utility and nerf spells and some MA stuff are enough to make you T2. Where are my planar bindings and polymorphs?

EDIT: No, of course "Slow, halt, and solid fog" is not the entirety of every useful spell the beguiler has that isn't MA, don't try to say I said that before anyone does.
I mean, for comparison, this is Treantmonk's sample spell prep for a wizard.

0: Caltropsx3, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Wall of Smoke, Grease x2, Expeditious Retreat (swift), Targeting Ray, Silent Image
2: Web, Glitterdust, Cloud of Bewilderment, Rope Trick, Invisibility
3: Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust (Sculpt spell meta), Bands of Steel, Haste
🤷

PoeticallyPsyco

2020-11-18, 07:14 PM

If only those classes had some way to cherry pick spells that will cover their weaknesses, or even just pick the best spells of a given level within their specialty. Some sort of 'advanced' method of learning new spells, if you will, spells not on their class list. Ah well, 'twas not to be.

Thunder999

2020-11-18, 07:34 PM

Avanced learning is a small number of spells overall, and more importantly it's very limited in which schools you can have access to, it's not going to get you the big tier 2 power spells.

mabriss lethe

2020-11-18, 07:36 PM

T1: Cleric
T2: Psion
T3: Too many to choose from.
T4: Ranger
T5: Monk and Soulknife
T6: Commoner or Aristocrat.

Troacctid

2020-11-18, 07:39 PM

Avanced learning is a small number of spells overall, and more importantly it's very limited in which schools you can have access to, it's not going to get you the big tier 2 power spells.
Can I ask which power spells are those, perchance, whose presence elevates a class to T2 in your eyes? The spells that presumably all sorcerers and favored souls must take, lest they plummet to T3?

Thunder999

2020-11-18, 08:47 PM

Unavenger

2020-11-18, 09:33 PM

I mean, for comparison, this is Treantmonk's sample spell prep for a wizard.

🤷

I don't see "One person is bad at wizard" as a very compelling argument for why beguiler should go up a tier.

Anthrowhale

2020-11-18, 10:23 PM

it's the fact that they don't have a single buff...
Time Stop/Mind Blank/Moment of Prescience/Foresight/True Seeing? These seem like fairly potent buffs.

or non-mind affecting offensive spell at 5th level or above that makes me not put them in tier 2.
Usually, there are enough not-immune-to-mind-affecting monsters that Dominate Monster is a fairly potent offensive spell for problem solving.

I'm with you in finding the spell list for high level spells less potent than the earlier ones, but if I pick the top 3 at each level it makes a reasonable-but-not-superoptimized sorcerer.

Troacctid

2020-11-18, 10:53 PM

Hmm, I'd say having at least a good proportion of these, polymorph, polymorph any object, shapechange, summon monster, simulacrum, gate, planar binding, fly, haste, solid fog (or freezing fog later), celerity, timestop, wish, maze, stun ray, reverse gravity, dispel magic (or greater dispel/chain dispel), force cage, teleport, plane shift, maw of chaos. Probably forgot some.

Didn't mention many lower level spells because I don't really find the lower levels much of a problem for the fixed list classes.
Beguilers in particular look great at low-mid levels, with many classic buffs and offensive spells, it's the fact that they don't have a single buff or non-mind affecting offensive spell at 5th level or above that makes me not put them in tier 2.
They're not just missing most of the ones I listed, they don't have anything close.
Well let's see. They have simulacrum, haste, solid fog, time stop, dispel magic, and greater dispel magic directly. Shadow walk fills in for teleport and plane shift. Dominated minions can fill in for summons. Eventually shades can fill in for any conjuration effect, although since the tier list emphasizes levels 5–15, we should cross off all the 9th-level spells, so let's chuck shapechange, gate, wish and maw of chaos, and weight the 8ths as like half a spell each. I think you're missing some important ones too, like true seeing, mind blank, freedom of movement, haste, and glitterdust. Add those in the mix and it looks to me like beguiler's hit rate is at least as good as favored soul's.

Time Stop/Mind Blank/Moment of Prescience/Foresight/True Seeing? These seem like fairly potent buffs.

Usually, there are enough not-immune-to-mind-affecting monsters that Dominate Monster is a fairly potent offensive spell for problem solving.

I'm with you in finding the spell list for high level spells less potent than the earlier ones, but if I pick the top 3 at each level it makes a reasonable-but-not-superoptimized sorcerer.
Greater dispel magic, shadow evocation, spell turning, shadow walk, and break enchantment are not too shabby either.