Wildshape Ranger

[Hiro Quester]

WildshapeRanger gets wildshape instead of a combat style.

At what level can the ranger use wildshape? from level 1? From level 2 (when they get a combat style)? From level 5 (like a druid)?

[lylsyly]

From the SRD:

A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through the woodlands.
Gain

Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).
Lose

Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.

Link Here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger)

Specifies as Druid, which would mean it starts at level 5. weaker than a druids by far since you only get small or medium animals.

[ATHATH]

I'd recommend compensating for the "Small or Medium animals only" restriction by taking feats, PrCs, etc. that expand your Wild Shape forms list, like the Aberration Wild Shape feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to start wildshaping at level 1 (or in this case, 2, due to LA) go for the divine minion template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a). Or you could take a level in shapeshifting druid (PHB II) if you want to stay humanoid. Combine the two for a very inexpensive alternative to being a lycanthrope.

Of course, a divine minion wildshape ranger could still have the normal ranger wildshape at level 5 if you have LA buyoff.

[Doctor Despair]

While worse than a druid on its own, wildshape Ranger is, however, a very compelling combination with Master of Many Forms due to the ranger bonus feats. Take the ranger ACF to trade the companion for a familiar (Alertness), take your free endurance, and suddenly your feat taxes are covered.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

While worse than a druid on its own, wildshape Ranger is, however, a very compelling combination with Master of Many Forms due to the ranger bonus feats....which, I believe, are traded for wildshape (except Track), so that doesn't really work.

[Doctor Despair]

...which, I believe, are traded for wildshape (except Track), so that doesn't really work.

Nah, you're misremembering. You keep Endurance and Animal Companion, among other things

Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nah, you're misremembering. You keep Endurance and Animal Companion, among other things

Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.Okay, Track and Endurance.

But you said the draw to ranger/master of many forms was the bonus feats, which I would guess would mean the combat style feats. Which you lose.

I don't consider Track and Endurance to be "draws of the ranger class" because they're not good feats. They're DCFS fodder, at best.

And the ranger animal companion isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

[Soranar]

while limited, even basic wildshape can be pretty strong

your medium sized bear is pretty good for a while and the other medium creatures all provide interesting options (swim, flight, climb speed, high grapple score, etc)

as for your average fighting form

the medium dinosaurs have pounce, multiple attacks and a poison iirc



the truly insane medium wildshape is a legendary ape which has 30 STR and can use weapons (being essentially humanoid), it's only real restriction is the level (13 HD)


in a similar vein the legendary eagle and the legendary wolf also have their uses

and remember that wildshaping heals you a bit each time too

[Arkhios]

While the range of size for your wild shape forms is limited, you'll still get forms with HD equal to your ranger level. And you'll still keep your own hit points, base attack bonus and save bonuses, as well as feats.

[tiercel]

I generally think of WS Ranger as having two major plays, both of which trade on the fact that you’re losing less than Druid would be, using them :

(1) Master of Many Forms (as already mentioned), since your “lesser” wildshape doesn’t really bite you once you’re in the PrC — heck, it’s arguable WS Ranger is even preferable to Druid as an entry (if for no other reason than Druid/MoMF raises the question “why not just stay Druid?”), or

(2) don’t think of WS Ranger has having a weak wildshape, think of it as being *utility* wildshape for exploration and scouting, plus a power source for [Wild] feats that let you fly or up your natural armor or sprint super fast *while retaining all your weapons and equipment* (unlike wild shape, unless your WBL is significantly sunk into either Wilding Clasps on everything you care about, or specific armor/weapons that have the whole “apply when wildshaped” clause).

If you’ve decided that THF is a better fighting style than TWF or archery, those ranger combat feats weren’t doing much for you anyway — even ranger wildshape, plus a [Wild] feat or two, make you better at melee and at skillmonkeying.

Side note: ranger animal companion does pretty much suck, but the Urban Companion ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (Cityscape web enhancement) gives pretty much a familiar, which is an awesome trade since even if your effective level for familiar abilities is weak, it still gets 3/4 (!) your hit points and all your skill ranks.

[Doctor Despair]

Okay, Track and Endurance.

But you said the draw to ranger/master of many forms was the bonus feats, which I would guess would mean the combat style feats. Which you lose.

I don't consider Track and Endurance to be "draws of the ranger class" because they're not good feats. They're DCFS fodder, at best.

And the ranger animal companion isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Endurance and Alertness are prereqs for master of many forms, so they are notable for a momf build. It conserves all your actual feats for meaningful choices. Given you won't be advancing your spellcasting as a druid, conserving your level 1 and level 3 feat is a real draw. It is sad to lose combat styles, but that was not at all what I was referring to when I referenced the relevant bonus feats as specifically relates to master of many forms.

The ranger companion does such, but again, you use an ACF to trade it out for a better version of the familiar. Get some tangible bonus, like +2 to will saves, and Alertness for free.

[Nihilarian]

I generally think of WS Ranger as having two major plays, both of which trade on the fact that you’re losing less than Druid would be, using them :

(1) Master of Many Forms (as already mentioned), since your “lesser” wildshape doesn’t really bite you once you’re in the PrC — heck, it’s arguable WS Ranger is even preferable to Druid as an entry (if for no other reason than Druid/MoMF raises the question “why not just stay Druid?”), or

(2) don’t think of WS Ranger has having a weak wildshape, think of it as being *utility* wildshape for exploration and scouting, plus a power source for [Wild] feats that let you fly or up your natural armor or sprint super fast *while retaining all your weapons and equipment* (unlike wild shape, unless your WBL is significantly sunk into either Wilding Clasps on everything you care about, or specific armor/weapons that have the whole “apply when wildshaped” clause).

If you’ve decided that THF is a better fighting style than TWF or archery, those ranger combat feats weren’t doing much for you anyway — even ranger wildshape, plus a [Wild] feat or two, make you better at melee and at skillmonkeying.

Side note: ranger animal companion does pretty much suck, but the Urban Companion ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (Cityscape web enhancement) gives pretty much a familiar, which is an awesome trade since even if your effective level for familiar abilities is weak, it still gets 3/4 (!) your hit points and all your skill ranks.another move is going Swift Hunter. Wild Shape is an in class source of pounce for you, and the extra damage will be as useful for you as it is for other rangers

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Endurance and Alertness are prereqs for master of many forms, so they are notable for a momf build. It conserves all your actual feats for meaningful choices. Given you won't be advancing your spellcasting as a druid, conserving your level 1 and level 3 feat is a real draw. It is sad to lose combat styles, but that was not at all what I was referring to when I referenced the relevant bonus feats as specifically relates to master of many forms.

The ranger companion does such, but again, you use an ACF to trade it out for a better version of the familiar. Get some tangible bonus, like +2 to will saves, and Alertness for free.Ranger doesn't give Alertness, though, and there aren't many PrCs or feats that require Endurance or Track that I see people using that often, aside from perhaps Steadfast Determination and illithid slayer. Granted, illithid slayer is a great PrC, but Steadfast Determination isn't terribly good on a Wis-focused class.

There are feats and PrCs that ping off of both feats, though, so there is a point there.

[Doctor Despair]

Ranger doesn't give Alertness, though, and there aren't many PrCs or feats that require Endurance or Track that I see people using that often, aside from perhaps Steadfast Determination and illithid slayer. Granted, illithid slayer is a great PrC, but Steadfast Determination isn't terribly good on a Wis-focused class.

There are feats and PrCs that ping off of both feats, though, so there is a point there.

Master of Many Forms requires both Alertness and Endurance, as I said in the OP when I pointed it out. Additionally, rangers, as I said, can take an ACF to trade out their animal companion for a familiar. Familiars grant alertness to their master when they are near -- which is sufficient to fulfill the requirements of the PrC, even if it isn't active 100% of the time.

[Vizzerdrix]

I am a fan of using WS Ranger to enter Daggerspell Shaper. You have to dip for sneak attack, but their are several classes to pick from to get that.


Am I wrong in thinking you can chain ws ranger with mystic ranger? They both replace different things. :smallconfused:

[Doctor Despair]

Am I wrong in thinking you can chain ws ranger with mystic ranger? They both replace different things. :smallconfused:

If only it were so. They aren't ACFs; they are variant classes. They don't play nicely together. You can stack ACFs, but not variants.

[Venger]

I am a fan of using WS Ranger to enter Daggerspell Shaper. You have to dip for sneak attack, but their are several classes to pick from to get that.


Am I wrong in thinking you can chain ws ranger with mystic ranger? They both replace different things. :smallconfused:
No, you are right. You can freely mix acfs, variant classes, sub lvls, etc as long as you don't trade away the same thing more than once. I've never heard of mystic ranger, but if it doesn't trade your combat feats, you're fine. Where is mystic ranger from?

[Doctor Despair]

No, you are right. You can freely mix acfs, variant classes, sub lvls, etc as long as you don't trade away the same thing more than once. I've never heard of mystic ranger, but if it doesn't trade your combat feats, you're fine. Where is mystic ranger from?

I'm 90% sure you can't combine variant classes. Let me check.


Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate)

So by RAW, you either can't take levels in both variants, or you multiclass between them (like multiclassing between Wildshape Ranger and Bard). That choice is up to the DM. You can not, however, take the first four levels of Mystic Ranger and the fifth level of Wildshape Ranger; you'd need all five levels of Wildshape Ranger to gain the wildshape, and then you could start taking levels of Mystic Ranger, which is super sub-optimal. Variant classes are not ACF; you aren't just trading out features. They are entirely different classes in their own right.

[Vizzerdrix]

No, you are right. You can freely mix acfs, variant classes, sub lvls, etc as long as you don't trade away the same thing more than once. I've never heard of mystic ranger, but if it doesn't trade your combat feats, you're fine. Where is mystic ranger from?

Dragon mag 336.

[Venger]

Oh, ok, you mean like you can't take vanilla rogue and feat rogue in the same build. That is correct. I misunderstood what you meant and thought you were talking about substitution levels.

[H_H_F_F]

I got confused. Can you or can you not play a mystic-wildshape-ranger? I was under the impression you could.

[StreamOfTheSky]

While worse than a druid on its own, wildshape Ranger is, however, a very compelling combination with Master of Many Forms due to the ranger bonus feats. Take the ranger ACF to trade the companion for a familiar (Alertness), take your free endurance, and suddenly your feat taxes are covered.

Yup. That's exactly how I do it.
It works out so perfectly. You get the bad feat pre-reqs out of the way for free, and the familiar is actually better than the animal companion for a MoMF Ranger since it's hurt far less by the total lack of advancement of the class feature by MoMF. Even for combat use it's better than an animal companion would've been, since the familiar's HD, hp, BAB, etc.. are tied to your own. Though it's still probably not worth using the urban familiar for combat.

[Doctor Despair]

I got confused. Can you or can you not play a mystic-wildshape-ranger? I was under the impression you could.

You cannot. Let me clarify for you. What people WANT to do is play a Ranger that trades combat styles for wild shape, and trades animal companion away for advanced spellcasting. If we did this the way people envision, this would mean that at level 5 (ECL 5), the Mystic Wildshape Ranger hybrid would have wildshape and second level spells. However, this is not how it works.

If your DM allows you to multiclass between them, you would need to take 5 levels of Wildshape Ranger to get wildshape, and then four levels of Mystic Ranger to get access to second level spells, reaching that at level 9. This is clearly suboptimal.

More likely, however, the DM would probably just say you cannot multiclass between two different copies of the Ranger class, as they are the same class, for the same reason you can't, in core, take a 1 level dip in ranger, and then take the same first level in ranger -- you are forced to progress the class, or take a different class. Variant classes just replace the ability to take the base class most of the time, and you can't use two variants in the same character most of the time.

[H_H_F_F]

Hmmm.

My impression was that while Mystic Ranger is really an alternative ranger, getting different benefits at different times, the wildshape ranger was a more straight forward ACF - you trade combat style feats for wildshape, no more changes required.

Your understanding is that just like the mystic ranger, the wildshape ranger is a different take on the class as a whole, not merely a glorified ACF, correct?

If so, I think your approach probably makes more sense from a RAW POV (after all, it's called "variant ranger") but maybe not RAI - and more importantly, I don't see it as causing any rules issues, and in a mid-high tier group, not balance issues either.
Would you consider allowing it your games, despite your POV on the RAW?

[Doctor Despair]

Hmmm.

My impression was that while Mystic Ranger is really an alternative ranger, getting different benefits at different times, the wildshape ranger was a more straight forward ACF - you trade combat style feats for wildshape, no more changes required.

Your understanding is that just like the mystic ranger, the wildshape ranger is a different take on the class as a whole, not merely a glorified ACF, correct?

If so, I think your approach probably makes more sense from a RAW POV (after all, it's called "variant ranger") but maybe not RAI - and more importantly, I don't see it as causing any rules issues, and in a mid-high tier group, not balance issues either.
Would you consider allowing it your games, despite your POV on the RAW?

I think Wildshape Ranger should be an ACF, but it is a variant class, so the RAW is not on our side. :/ However, I will also point out that a houserule to combine the two is probably not problematic or, to put it another way, probably still less problematic than full-casting T1 classes. Add the Shooting Star substitution level and take Sword of the Arcane Order for an expanded spell-list