Epic Level Handbook: Using "Animate Dead" seed

[Jazath]

I have a certain question, what would the DC increase be if i would use some more powerful types of undead. Such as a Lavawght and shape of fire? Could i also create a paragon version of these undead creations?

[Segev]

I have a certain question, what would the DC increase be if i would use some more powerful types of undead. Such as a Lavawght and shape of fire? Could i also create a paragon version of these undead creations?

There doesn't seem to be a ton of rhyme or reason, and the closest I can come to identifying any traits that would function is to divide the total CR of the creature by 2. The ghost and vampire break this by being templates, and but the mohrg and the specter work. The mummy doesn't. It's...weird. And then of course there's the negative CRs.

But if you sum up the total CR of the monster you want to create and divide it by two, you're probably on the right track for an epic undead.

[Biggus]

The mummy is CR5, and is +0, so I take that as the baseline. The only two of the more powerful creatures which have a fixed CR seem to go up by about 1 point of Spellcraft DC per point of challenge rating, but there are far more examples of weaker creatures, and on average they go down by about 2 points of SCDC per point of CR.

Looking at the Summon seed, the SCDC increases by 2 for every point of CR increase, which is probably the closest thing we have as a basis for comparison.

So I'd say (CR-5)x2, which would come out at +36 for the Lavawight and +42 for the shape of fire.

[Segev]

The mummy is CR5, and is +0, so I take that as the baseline. The only two of the more powerful creatures which have a fixed CR seem to go up by about 1 point of Spellcraft DC per point of challenge rating, but there are far more examples of weaker creatures, and on average they go down by about 2 points of SCDC per point of CR.

Looking at the Summon seed, the SCDC increases by 2 for every point of CR increase, which is probably the closest thing we have as a basis for comparison.

So I'd say (CR-5)x2, which would come out at +36 for the Lavawight and +42 for the shape of fire.

That seems a better analysis than mine; I'd go with this.

A lot of this is so very ad-hoc, because epic is just not well-developed design space.

[Jack_Simth]

That seems a better analysis than mine; I'd go with this.

A lot of this is so very ad-hoc, because epic is just not well-developed design space.

It's also a 3.0 book. Want to try the DC comparisons using the 3.0 Monster Manual rather than the 3.5?

[Biggus]

It's also a 3.0 book. Want to try the DC comparisons using the 3.0 Monster Manual rather than the 3.5?

The only one I can see that's changed is the mummy, which was CR3 instead of CR5. Which makes the table even wonkier, as the mummy is CR3 at +0 and the Wraith is CR5 at -2. (CR-5)x2 is still a reasonable approximation, but no formula is going to fit the semi-random values in the table exactly.