Best classes to dip with a bloodline.

[weckar]

I have a fully paid off bloodline on my character. What classes could I dip to make most use out of it? Specifically, the +3 progression.
It's a generic question, but if interested most my other levels are artificer.

[tuesdayscoming]

I believe that Binder and the Tome of Battle classes are generally considered the most synergistic with bloodlines. Binders have, IIRC, their vestige access and number of binds DIRECTLY tied to binder level (unlike casters, for whom effective class level is the important factor). ToB classes, similarly, have their available maneuvers tied to initiator level.

Depending on your interpretation of how bloodlines work (notoriously vague, those), this can get you a binder/initiator level far higher than you'd have without bloodlines.

Ardent seems to be another good option. Unlike most psionic classes, their access to higher level powers is directly tied to manifester level rather than effective class level.

Anything that's tied to making high skill checks will likewise benefit from the increased skill rank cap. Incantatrix needs high Spellcraft. Truenamers need high Truenaming checks.

[Troacctid]

Follower of the Skyserpent maybe. At-will fly is great, but the low caster level can be an issue. A bloodline fixes that.

[weckar]

Those are some neat ones, yeah. I'd already considered ardent for this build before I'd realized this particular benefit, so that's definitely going in. Still only get the starting mantles, so less total powers than I could have, but...

[Doctor Despair]

I believe that Binder and the Tome of Battle classes are generally considered the most synergistic with bloodlines. Binders have, IIRC, their vestige access and number of binds DIRECTLY tied to binder level (unlike casters, for whom effective class level is the important factor). ToB classes, similarly, have their available maneuvers tied to initiator level.


On the note of Binders, and I'm sure OP knows about this if they've read anything about bloodlines, but bloodlines add to the value of each class, even if those classes have identical stacking features, so taking Binder with bloodlines is good, but even better is Binder with binder PrCs, such as Anima Mage, as Bloodline adds +1 to your effective binder level for each class with soul binding that stacks with Binder.

[weckar]

That seems a bit much... A bit harder to sell, too.

[Malphegor]

Bloodlines are so annoyingly vague in how they work that it’s best to pick an interpretation that works for your game and stick to that as otherwise you’ll descend into madness building builds with multiple interpretations of the misty fogginess of these particular rules being used in different ways

[Particle_Man]

Yeah I don't see much benefit for a single-classed character taking bloodlines. It just plays "catch up" for the levels that you are otherwise losing to the bloodline.

For multi-class characters I could see it. It is a little like initiator prestige classes in that respect.

[Doctor Despair]

Yeah I don't see much benefit for a single-classed character taking bloodlines. It just plays "catch up" for the levels that you are otherwise losing to the bloodline.

For multi-class characters I could see it. It is a little like initiator prestige classes in that respect.

Well, depending on how you read bloodlines, there's literally no reason not to take one. We know they explicitly don't count towards a character's ECL, and you take them before reaching a certain level or else suffer an xp penalty.

* With one reading, you reach the XP needed for level 2. You take a bloodline level. It doesn't increase your ECL, and you still have the xp needed for level 2, so you also gain a class level.

* With another reading, you reach the xp needed for level 3. You take a level in bloodline. You know they don't increase your ECL, but you decide to increase the character's ECL with regards to the XP table anyway for some reason, so the bloodline level replaces a class level. This is a houserule that makes bloodlines super suboptimal unless you're building some TO monster abusing the stacking rules, and even then it might not be worth it. It also raises a lot of questions about your xp from that point on (your ECL is lower for encounters than the party, so do you actually get bonus xp from that point on? In that case, XP is a river and you'll catch up pretty fast.)

* With a third reading (the one I use, as it is more balanced), you reach the xp needed for level 2 (or whichever level you choose before the xp reduction limit). You take a bloodline level and effectively pay xp equal to that which you would use to level up, instead gaining a bloodline level and not a class level. You can represent this at the level 2 1000xp mark by either raising all future level requirements by 1000xp for this character (complicated) or deducting 1000xp from the character's xp total (simpler). This is also a houserule, however, as bloodlines do not instruct you to deduct xp or modify the xp chart.

By the simplest RAW reading, bloodlines are effectively free. If a DM objects to that, there are a lot of options to houserule costs into them, some of which make them border-line unplayable, but all of which probably make more sense than them being free.

[ben-zayb]

On the note of Binders, and I'm sure OP knows about this if they've read anything about bloodlines, but bloodlines add to the value of each class, even if those classes have identical stacking features, so taking Binder with bloodlines is good, but even better is Binder with binder PrCs, such as Anima Mage, as Bloodline adds +1 to your effective binder level for each class with soul binding that stacks with Binder.This is basically why dips in each initiator class (with multiple dips in other classes or ToB PrC) gets crazy with bloodlines...

Same can be said for Spellthieves / Sublime Chord with the Master Spellthief feat and dips on many arcane casting classes.

[Particle_Man]

I guess my house rule, if it is such (I cannot find where it says they don’t count for ecl although I have no reason to doubt you), is that bloodlines do count for ECL, which would presumably stop some of the cheese. Another house rule would be to take them at the latest levels they are allowed (so not level 2, but level 3 for the first of a major bloodline, level 6 for the second and level 12 for the third).

[Doctor Despair]

I guess my house rule, if it is such (I cannot find where it says they don’t count for ecl although I have no reason to doubt you), is that bloodlines do count for ECL, which would presumably stop some of the cheese. Another house rule would be to take them at the latest levels they are allowed (so not level 2, but level 3 for the first of a major bloodline, level 6 for the second and level 12 for the third).

Not sure they're ever worth taking under that model; they're strictly worse than just about any other class level you could take. To reference the quote...

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)... A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.


Essentially, it describes that to reflect the gradual change in power over time, Bloodlines don't have LA or increase ECL with their levels, but instead have the benefits (should probably more accurately read as effects) listed in that section of the text.

However, you are right that it restricts the cheese. The problem is it also removes any incentive for a character to use a bloodline "fairly" or for PO or flavor. To each their own, I suppose

[Bphill561]

I was always fond of bloodlines on a fiend of possession build, but that does not work well as an after thought dip.