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Spectre3541
2007-11-01, 01:27 PM
So I want to build a counterspelling character and I've seen some ideas thrown around here but I couldn't find anything concrete. The character is human and ability scores are: 18 16 15 13 12 10. I'm open to any distribution of scores with this. Also, the campaign is gestalt, so feel free to create a monster! Thanks for the help?

SoD
2007-11-01, 01:50 PM
I'd go with Savage Species, take the Mind Flayer. Go with, oh...that won't work.

Take a grey elf wizard, put the 18 into int, plus racial mods makes it 20, 4 ranks into spellcraft, and take the improved counterspell feat. That should give you a +13 to your counterspell modifier. Also put four ranks into knowlege (arcana), and, when you level up, put another one in there, which will give you a +2 synergy bonus, and, assuming you also put one rank into spellcraft, gives a total of +16 to your counterspell, and, seeing as spells DC for counterspelling is 15+spell level, this should be a nice easy way to do it. For a 9th level spell, you could counterspell it with a natural roll as low as 8 at second level (rules aside for casting an equal or higher level spell of the same school).

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the bit about human. Just minue 2 from my numbers.

Tempest Fennac
2007-11-01, 01:50 PM
I think playing as a Sorcerer (for the larger base amount of spellslots) with Improved Counterspell would work reasonably well: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improved_Counterspell_%28Feat%29 . Also, use the following stats: Cha: 18, Con: 16, Int: 15 (Spellcraft is needed for Counterspelling), Dex: 13, Wis: 12 and Str: 10.

Shishnarfne
2007-11-01, 01:56 PM
Well, for counterspelling, I would presume that the feat Improved Counterspell is your best friend. Dispel Magic (and the Greater version) can be used to pinch hit for counterspells. So, with this in mind (Improved Counterspell lets you counter spells from the same school of lower level), I think you have a few priorities:
1) Really high Spellcraft to identify spells as they are being cast (also helps for entering into Archmage, see later notes)
2) Nasty things that happen to people when you counter their spells (see Archmage ability Mastery of Counterspelling for a core example). Some feats (and spells) in other books may help with this. Someone with those books will likely be along shortly. (Watch this space for ninjas.) Also, if you can get a bonus to caster level on Dispel checks, consider selling your character's soul for it.:smallwink:
3) High level spells in a variety of schools that you can use as counterspells.
4) Enough spell slots to burn on using these as counterspells.
5) The ability to be useful against non-casters (generally achieved by the normal use of your prepared counters).
6) High enough initiative to go first (counterspelling takes a readied action).
7) Ability to survive the BAD THINGS that will happen to you when frustrated villains (and DM's) figure out a way to hurt you despite your counterspell barrage (e.g. Quickened Blindess, a spell you failed your dispel check against and was too high of a level to counter, people with pointy sticks).

Number 7 is especially important; sufficiently important that I would make sure that your DM knows of your intent.

With this in mind, I'd suggest one side of the gestalt as a full arcane caster (sorcerors get more spell slots and spontaneous casting, wizards get higher level slots sooner and more spells known with spellbooks, so take your pick) heading into Archmage, and the other as another full caster class. I'd be tempted to take Cloistered Cleric for this one as it boosts skills and you won't be wearing armor anyway. I personally would take the cleric list over the druid list (you get more of the spells that keep the bad things from happening to you), but a druid doesn't care as much about not wearing armor.

I've not played gestalt, but this seems to me like a place to start.

SoD
2007-11-01, 02:22 PM
Also knowlege (arcana) at least 5 ranks, purely for the +2 synergy bonus to spellcraft.

illathid
2007-11-01, 04:39 PM
Optimizing Counterspell (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-546966)

Your welcome.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 04:51 PM
You want Noctumancer (ToM) badly.

Nonah_Me
2007-11-03, 07:00 PM
Dampen Spell if you want to reduce the DC of an incoming spell as an immediate action.

kemmotar
2007-11-03, 07:19 PM
reactive counterspell(wherever that is)
Also some items can help:
ring of spellbattle(recognise spells and redirect them 1/day when you can't counter them:smallbiggrin:
ring of greater counterspells(nuff said)
shirt of the leech(steal heals from enemies...nuff said...)

Quellian-dyrae
2007-11-03, 07:23 PM
Psion, psion, psion! Especially if you have Complete Psionic. Psions have excellent immediate-use defensive powers (Damp Power and Intellect Fortress for dealing with blasting, Tower of Iron Will to protect against mental attacks). More importantly, Dispel Psionics demolishes Dispel Magic unless I missed something, since the augment specifies that it increases your dispel check, not your maximum dispel check. Take Psionic Mastery from Complete Psionic, and once you hit the mid-levels you can pretty much auto-counter anything you have a readied action for at the low cost of 10 PP. At the high levels, you can even dedicate a Schism to doing the dispelling. And don't forget the value of the Synchronicity power; if you don't actually need to counter, you can just take some other action later. Plus, since all power points flow into the same pool, you can gestalt two psionic classes to have a massive power point reserve so you never run out of counters.

Of course, the other option would be just readying one of the psion's mighty high-damage spells and forcing a massive DC concentration check for even daring to cast a spell at you and/or in your general direction. Either way works just fine.

Laurellien
2007-11-03, 07:30 PM
There's a cleric feat that lets you burn turning attempts to counterspell as a swift action. that + cha + extra turning + night sticks = ultimate counterspeller

Temp
2007-11-03, 08:05 PM
Dispel Psionics demolishes Dispel Magic unless I missed something, since the augment specifies that it increases your dispel check, not your maximum dispel check. Remember that you have to pay for these increases... having to burn that many pp tears your endurance apart.

brian c
2007-11-03, 08:29 PM
Sorcerer//Favored Soul would probably be your best bet. Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, Heighten Spell, etc. Only one casting stat, all spontaneous, and lots of spell slots available.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-03, 10:00 PM
While most will say Sorcerer based on spell slots, but gestalt, I would consider:

Wizard//Factotum

The main reason for this is the factotum's extra standard actions from Cunning Burst. Take the counterspell feats, then font of inspiration or whatever for everything else. When all is said and done, you end up with the ability to counterspell your opponent, then still cast spells on your turn.

For pure counterspelling, I think this is your best bet, but there may be other options.

EDIT: Actually, with that 16, you could just go Sorcerer//Factotum. That way you have all the spells you need and don't have to worry about preparing correctly (i.e. running out of spells of the proper school and dispel magics), but still get all the benefits of the above. 18 Cha (increase this), 16 Int (just leave this) would work well.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-03, 10:14 PM
I'll need some help deciphering what this actually means, but someone on these boards posted one nasty counterspeller -

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/8004/masterdispellerlw2dj5.jpg

Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 8 / Initiate of the Seven Veils 7 / Archmage 2 //Cleric 1/ Archivist 19.

:smalleek:

BardicDuelist
2007-11-04, 12:45 AM
I'll need some help deciphering what this actually means, but someone on these boards posted one nasty counterspeller -

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/8004/masterdispellerlw2dj5.jpg

Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 8 / Initiate of the Seven Veils 7 / Archmage 2 //Cleric 1/ Archivist 19.

:smalleek:

Yeah... that pretty much dispels everything actually...

Temp
2007-11-04, 01:28 AM
I'll need some help deciphering what this actually means, but someone on these boards posted one nasty counterspeller -
Heh. I played the Arcane half of that (pretty closely, few feats off). No magic could stand in my wake... Didn't really matter much once the DM craftily got us to Plane shift to a dimension relying on Psionics (with no Magic/Psionics transparency*)

*except SR/PR... that stayed.

The_Snark
2007-11-04, 02:24 AM
Psion, psion, psion! Especially if you have Complete Psionic. Psions have excellent immediate-use defensive powers (Damp Power and Intellect Fortress for dealing with blasting, Tower of Iron Will to protect against mental attacks). More importantly, Dispel Psionics demolishes Dispel Magic unless I missed something, since the augment specifies that it increases your dispel check, not your maximum dispel check. Take Psionic Mastery from Complete Psionic, and once you hit the mid-levels you can pretty much auto-counter anything you have a readied action for at the low cost of 10 PP. At the high levels, you can even dedicate a Schism to doing the dispelling. And don't forget the value of the Synchronicity power; if you don't actually need to counter, you can just take some other action later. Plus, since all power points flow into the same pool, you can gestalt two psionic classes to have a massive power point reserve so you never run out of counters.

Of course, the other option would be just readying one of the psion's mighty high-damage spells and forcing a massive DC concentration check for even daring to cast a spell at you and/or in your general direction. Either way works just fine.

Psions make terrible counterspellers, actually. The reason is simple: You can't counterspell with psionics.

Yeah. Dispel Psionics is not identical to Dispel Magic; it only has targeted and area versions, no counterspell version. The only provision for countering a psionic power is here:

Powers and Spells with Opposite Effects
Powers and spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some powers and spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a power’s or spell’s description.

And although I haven't looked at all the powers, I wasn't able to find any with that provision in the text, even for powers where you'd expect it (psychic chirugery specifically negates microcosm, but it doesn't say they counter each other).

Of course, the second strategy still works, and Damp Power/Intellect Fortress/Tower of Iron Will are still good defensive powers. But it's not actually counterspelling; just... countering spellcasters.

Crow
2007-11-04, 12:55 PM
You can use Reactive Counterspell + Rapid Metamagic + Heighten Spell, and pick up a cantrip from each school, and as a Sorcerer you will be pretty solid for Counterspelling. You will be able to counterspell nearly 90% of what a caster throws at you. The only thing you will be missing is the ability to counter 9th level spells, for which you will need to pick up Greater Dispel Magic.

If you are doing some sort of gish build (counterspelling gish builds work quite well as counterspelling goes), you will be at a disadvantage for caster level, but as a straight caster you will be better off. Either way, purchasing a Mantle of Second Chances (MIC) will allow you to make a reroll once per day before you know the outcome of the roll, so if you roll and it sucks, you get a second chance at it.

I would pick up Mage's Disjunction for "emergency" dispelling (and because if you can counter only one 9th level spell 100% of time, that one is arguably it).

namo
2007-11-05, 04:10 AM
Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 8 / Initiate of the Seven Veils 7 / Archmage 2 //Cleric 1/ Archivist 19.

This build can be tweaked a bit, but it's a pretty much the best out there.

For the wizard part, the handbook is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12991308&postcount=11). Add the divine feat from Fiendish Codex II that allows counterspelling as an immediate action, and you can counterspell two spells per round for the cost of your swift action and 2 3rd level spell slots (for Battlemagic Perception and Dispel). You can still control the battlefield in addition !

toddex
2007-11-05, 04:30 AM
Psions make terrible counterspellers, actually. The reason is simple: You can't counterspell with psionics.

Yeah. Dispel Psionics is not identical to Dispel Magic; it only has targeted and area versions, no counterspell version. The only provision for countering a psionic power is here:


And although I haven't looked at all the powers, I wasn't able to find any with that provision in the text, even for powers where you'd expect it (psychic chirugery specifically negates microcosm, but it doesn't say they counter each other).

Of course, the second strategy still works, and Damp Power/Intellect Fortress/Tower of Iron Will are still good defensive powers. But it's not actually counterspelling; just... countering spellcasters.

Its a ruling to not differentiate between psionics and magic for purposes like spell resistance and psionic resistance and just say both are treated as if they affect both.

--

My group uses it and from the sound of it alot of others use it just to make things alot more simple and fun.

AslanCross
2007-11-05, 09:07 AM
On the subject of counterspelling: Can a spell that can be cast as an immediate action be used as a counterspell without readying an action? For example, I have the Improved Counterspell feat and my opponent blasts me with a scorching ray. Can I use electric vengeance to counter it without having to ready an action?

Crow
2007-11-05, 06:49 PM
No, becasue you are readying yourself to notice the casting and to cast the spell. It makes no difference how long the spell takes to cast, you are holding off on your turn for your opponent to cast first.