Party Vs Demogorgon

[dededo11]

Does the following party stand a chance against Demogorgon (the demon lord) at level 20(full power outside his lair)?

Half-Orc Bear Totem Barbarian

Tiefling Lore Bard

High Elf War Wizard

Half-Elf Devotion Paladin

Variant Human Grave Cleric

If not, what can I do to make the fight more even?

[sithlordnergal]

So this is a level 20 party? What are their magic items looking like?

[kingcheesepants]

Assuming this is the endgame of a campaign and these players know what they're doing and have decent tactics and teamwork and the gear appropriate to a level 20 party (so everyone has at least some uncommon and rare items and there are a few very rare and legendary items among the group) than I would expect the group to wipe the floor with the Demogorgon outside of his lair. If this is a one shot or something and the group doesn't have a firm grasp of tactics and teamwork and they don't have good gear. Well than maybe the Demogorgon stands a chance. But honestly with a full team of 5 balancing all the roles like that, he still might need those lair effects to challenge them properly. If you want to balance it a little more put him back in his lair and then make them fight a whole host of demons to get to him. Have them lose some HP and use up some of their high level spells and abilities overcoming challenges to reach him and then have some other demons in there with him so that they can't just Nova him immediately and end the combat in the first round.

[Cikomyr2]

Assuming this is the endgame of a campaign and these players know what they're doing and have decent tactics and teamwork and the gear appropriate to a level 20 party (so everyone has at least some uncommon and rare items and there are a few very rare and legendary items among the group) than I would expect the group to wipe the floor with the Demogorgon outside of his lair. If this is a one shot or something and the group doesn't have a firm grasp of tactics and teamwork and they don't have good gear. Well than maybe the Demogorgon stands a chance. But honestly with a full team of 5 balancing all the roles like that, he still might need those lair effects to challenge them properly. If you want to balance it a little more put him back in his lair and then make them fight a whole host of demons to get to him. Have them lose some HP and use up some of their high level spells and abilities overcoming challenges to reach him and then have some other demons in there with him so that they can't just Nova him immediately and end the combat in the first round.

There should always be a gauntlet leading to a proper Boss Fight.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm with kingcheesepants-- in all likelihood they'll crush him, ESPECIALLY if it's their only real encounter that day. My group finished Out of the Abyss recently at level 17, and I had to dig up a version of Fraz-Urb'luu that was nearly CR 30 to get a good climactic fight. (They were also pretty well equipped with magic items and only suffered minor ablation from the illusionary hells I threw them. Concentrates fire and sheer action economy lets parties punch well above their weight when it comes to single-boss fights.

Probably the best way to level things out a bit wout be to give Demogorgon a second turn each round. That does a lot to help balance the numbers, and it definitely fits with a two-headed demon lord.

[sithlordnergal]

Yeahm as long as they're a decently built team, they will stomp the Demogorgon, especially with the Paladin in the party.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Demogorgon doesn't show up with minions, you're doing it wrong. :smallwink:

[CheddarChampion]

My group beat the Demogorgon earlier this year as 6 level 14 characters. After a gauntlet of enemies.

I imagine it is easier with 5 level 20 characters.

[MaxWilson]

Does the following party stand a chance against Demogorgon (the demon lord) at level 20(full power outside his lair)?

Half-Orc Bear Totem Barbarian

Tiefling Lore Bard

High Elf War Wizard

Half-Elf Devotion Paladin

Variant Human Grave Cleric

If not, what can I do to make the fight more even?

As Korvin said... if you want this to be something other than a curbstomp, Demogorgon needs minions (and probably also favorable terrain somehow, like rubble that is difficult terrain for creatures that aren't Huge+, and nighttime/underground darkness).

How many minions are needed depends on what feats, spells, and magic items they have, and what kinds of outcomes you are aiming for. (If this is intended to be a curbstomp in which Demogorgon dies in eighteen seconds and is never seen again, you need a different amount of minions than if this is supposed to be a meet cute for a recurring villain/faction, to be resolved with finality much later.)

But yeah, if it's just a straight fight, it's more than possible for PCs to win this. There are tactics Demogorgon can use to improve his chances. Do you want more details?

[micahaphone]

I agree with the others, and I'll mention one fun twist to toss in: at x health, demogorgon splits into 2. You choose what orientation the split happens. Add number 2 into the fight lower in initiative, after at least 1 player. Same stats as the original's body. Change up the action economy that way.

[Mr Adventurer]

Have the fight underwater. Don't forget Dispel Magic.

[dededo11]

I was thinking of having them fight him after going through a lot of demons, but I should probably add a Balor and a Molydeus too right?

[MaxWilson]

I was thinking of having them fight him after going through a lot of demons, but I should probably add a Balor and a Molydeus too right?

Sure! Juice up the Balor a bit though to keep it from being underwhelming. Give it three attacks per Multiattack instead of just two, and let it substitute in a teleport for one attack just like a Nycaloth can.

[sithlordnergal]

Toss in a single Death Tyrant, that right there is gonna change the entire dynamic of the battle because Death Tyrants prevent all forms of healing.

[Goldlizard]

I was thinking of having them fight him after going through a lot of demons, but I should probably add a Balor and a Molydeus too right?

this may be a bit too much. Two high-CR creatures do a lot to overrun the action economy, especially if they have legendary actions. I'd:
Give Demo his lair actions. they help
have the Moly or the Balor (maybe both) in a fight before Demo
give the players a short rest (if you think they need it) before Demo
If you still need help, add some Shadow Demons to the mix with Demogorgon

[MaxWilson]

this may be a bit too much. Two high-CR creatures do a lot to overrun the action economy, especially if they have legendary actions. I'd:
Give Demo his lair actions. they help
have the Moly or the Balor (maybe both) in a fight before Demo
give the players a short rest (if you think they need it) before Demo
If you still need help, add some Shadow Demons to the mix with Demogorgon

Opinion: that's too easy to be climactic against five 20th level PCs. The Shadow Demons can be nullified by a single PC, e.g. Holy Aura/Divine Word (if not currently in the Abyss)/upcast Banishment from the Grave Cleric, leaving the Evil Overlord once again without minions.

Without minions, Demogorgon is mostly just a big sack of HP. Even his mind control powers matter less when there aren't any minions there to exploit them. The dramatic tension is entirely based on the PCs not realizing that Demogorgon is a chump with fewer HP and less damage than the party has.

IMO a good climax requires the party to be fighting an uphill battle against a stronger foe. Victory through superior wits, not superior stats.

[Tvtyrant]

this may be a bit too much. Two high-CR creatures do a lot to overrun the action economy, especially if they have legendary actions. I'd:
Give Demo his lair actions. they help
have the Moly or the Balor (maybe both) in a fight before Demo
give the players a short rest (if you think they need it) before Demo
If you still need help, add some Shadow Demons to the mix with Demogorgon

Demogorgon is a genius, why in the Abyss would he sit behind a door waiting for them to short rest and then use substandard demons?

Much more likely: The party fights the Moly and the Balor, they go to short rest. Demogorgon drops the entire palace into the ocean and attacks them underwater with the help of several Wastrilith's.

[MaxWilson]

Demogorgon is a genius, why in the Abyss would he sit behind a door waiting for them to short rest and then use substandard demons?

Much more likely: The party fights the Moly and the Balor, they go to short rest. Demogorgon drops the entire palace into the ocean and attacks them underwater with the help of several Wastrilith's.

Yeah, that feels suitably epic.

[Unoriginal]

Demogorgon is a genius, why in the Abyss would he sit behind a door waiting for them to short rest and then use substandard demons?

Much more likely: The party fights the Moly and the Balor, they go to short rest. Demogorgon drops the entire palace into the ocean and attacks them underwater with the help of several Wastrilith's.


Yeah, that feels suitably epic.

If Demogorgon was to use substandard demons, he would be using a whole horde of them while he's slouching on his throne and gorging on an endless decanter that constantly create golden apple cider or the like.

Throwing the palace underwater is good, though using his control on the Abyss to increase the relative distance between the PCs while he's not affected could also be a great mind screw, and also terrifying for the PCs when they realize the others are too far to help when the Demon Prince isn't hindered.

Alternatively, having a second Demon Prince bursts on the battle field and fight both PCs and Demogorgon could be awesome.

Could even combine the ideas and have Demogorgon plunge the palace in the ocean, attack the PCs underwater, and then Dagon takes offense to the intrusion on his domain and goes full hydrophobia-inducement on everyone.

[MaxWilson]

If Demogorgon was to use substandard demons, he would be using a whole horde of them while he's slouching on his throne and gorging on an endless decanter that constantly create golden apple cider or the like.

Throwing the palace underwater is good, though using his control on the Abyss to increase the relative distance between the PCs while he's not affected could also be a great mind screw, and also terrifying for the PCs when they realize the others are too far to help when the Demon Prince isn't hindered.

Alternatively, having a second Demon Prince bursts on the battle field and fight both PCs and Demogorgon could be awesome.

Could even combine the ideas and have Demogorgon plunge the palace in the ocean, attack the PCs underwater, and then Dagon takes offense to the intrusion on his domain and goes full hydrophobia-inducement on everyone.

That sounds awesome too, especially if the players view themselves as in some way responsible for getting Dagon involved.

[Pex]

Just remember to cast Protection spell, not Fireball.

[Bardon]

Now now, everyone knows that in order to defeat Demogorgon you need an 11-year old psychic girl.

My apologies to all, couldn't resist!