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Fiery Justice
2007-11-01, 01:28 PM
Just how evil can the gods be before, you know, they destroy the world? What is a good reason why they wouldn't just destroy all of civilization? What kind of portfolio is just right-out for such an evil pantheon?

AKA_Bait
2007-11-01, 01:32 PM
Which sort of evil panetheon?

Also, when dealing with a pantheon remember that although they might all technically be on the same side, they need not be 100% of the time. You can have a 'destroy them ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL' evil god and a 'my minions shall rule' evil god in the same panetheon (both want good erradicated) who don't work to the same ends all the time and occasionally oppose eachother. Take the greek gods, it was all hands on deck against the Titans but beyond that they spent all their time (aside from drinking, wenching and messing with mortals) screwing with eachother.

Note: I'm enough of a dork that reading your title I thought Gods competing for limited resources in the midst of population growth...

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 01:36 PM
The best way to understand proper evil, I have people read the Hierarchy of sins from the WoD V:tM paths. It shows that killing and stealing can still be sins if your belief system is corruption, because if people can't trust you, you can't corrupt them. True evil is corruption, not destruction. True evil is not the hobgoblin army marching to the city, but rather the merchant guild who provoked expansion into their territory for farmlands, because aside from earning money from the farm they happen to trade in arms as well and will profit from the war.

Destruction is the simplest form of evil and is generally frowned or laughed upon.

Raum
2007-11-01, 04:27 PM
Just how evil can the gods be before, you know, they destroy the world? What is a good reason why they wouldn't just destroy all of civilization? What kind of portfolio is just right-out for such an evil pantheon?Evil doesn't (or at least shoulnd't) equal destruction. In fact, the worst evils tend to be those with laudable goals - at least at first glance. It's the methods which differentiate evil from good more often than not.

Dragonmuncher
2007-11-01, 04:35 PM
Plus, gods need believers to gain strength.

Kill all the believers, no strength.

Not to mention that gods could easily have a "you don't destroy my followers, I won't destroy yours" agreement. That way, if one evil god starts massacring the nature god or whatever, all the other gods smack him down.

Fiery Justice
2007-11-01, 04:38 PM
To my understanding the Mortals Empower the Gods isn't universally true, but its definitely the most appropriate thing here. And I completely forgot what ---holes the Greek Gods (not including Apollo and maybe Athena) were.

Thanks for the suggestions:smallsmile:

Jannex
2007-11-01, 06:15 PM
To my understanding the Mortals Empower the Gods isn't universally true, but its definitely the most appropriate thing here. And I completely forgot what ---holes the Greek Gods (not including Apollo and maybe Athena) were.

Thanks for the suggestions:smallsmile:

Oh, Apollo had his moments. Just ask Cassandra.

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 06:39 PM
But if you asked cassandra, you wouldn't believe her. LOLz

Fiery Justice
2007-11-01, 06:41 PM
Oh, Apollo had his moments. Just ask Cassandra.

Okay, okay, so the Greek Gods were all royal *****rds.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 06:41 PM
Deities don't destroy the world because then they wouldn't have anywhere to use their malevolent powers. Also, there are good gods there to stop them.

neoweasel
2007-11-01, 06:48 PM
Just how evil can the gods be before, you know, they destroy the world? What is a good reason why they wouldn't just destroy all of civilization? What kind of portfolio is just right-out for such an evil pantheon?
Well, good reasons they wouldn't destroy all of civilization

1) There are powerful beings of Good and Neutral that oppose them
2) They want civilization for themselves
3) They want to corrupt the souls of the living so they become soldiers in their neverending battles in the planes when they die

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 06:51 PM
Well, good reasons they wouldn't destroy all of civilization

1) There are powerful beings of Good and Neutral that oppose them
2) They want civilization for themselves
3) They want to corrupt the souls of the living so they become soldiers in their neverending battles in the planes when they die

Now, wasn't it Hera who cursed Echo and we all know she's a b*tch? I thought we were talking about Apollo?

neoweasel
2007-11-01, 06:55 PM
Now, wasn't it Hera who cursed Echo and we all know she's a b*tch? I thought we were talking about Apollo?
I'm sorry, what? I understand what you're saying (and I think you're right about Hera) I just can't figure out how that follows from what I was saying.

Nonah_Me
2007-11-01, 08:18 PM
I used to be a big Greek Mythos buff. The biggest thing that sticks out in my mind is the fact that Zeus came down to Persus's mother in a "golden shower."

Ahem.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-02, 01:19 AM
Athena was a bitch to Arachne.

Artemis...well, she had a tendency to protect her chastity by turning guys into animals(Inspired Circe maybe?)

horseboy
2007-11-02, 01:27 AM
Athena was a bitch to Arachne.

Artemis...well, she had a tendency to protect her chastity by turning guys into animals(Inspired Circe maybe?)
Well, I would argue that Arachne needed a smack down. But, it's time for one of my favorite Tick quotes:

"Can you destroy the world?"
"Egads! I hope not! That's where I keep my stuff!"

Erk
2007-11-02, 01:28 AM
If you had a truly, purely evil pantheon, ie. there are no good or neutral deities, they still wouldn't destroy the world. If it's an evil pantheon chances are they made the world, and they probably did so and gave beings a capacity for good so that they could watch and laugh as good constantly tried and failed against the unstoppable powers of evil. One might argue that we live in such a world...

Nobody really knows why gods do anything, but I don't think most evil gods have the goal of ultimate destruction. Destruction and death are not evil; any good torturer knows that a live victim is much more valuable than a dead one.

sun_tzu
2007-11-02, 02:26 AM
Okay, okay, so the Greek Gods were all royal *****rds.

Prometheus was a swell guy.
But technically, he was a titan, not a god...

Khanderas
2007-11-02, 03:12 AM
Prometheus was a swell guy.
But technically, he was a titan, not a god...
And he was punished for being a nice guy. Hard.
(For those who do not know the story, Prometheus was a titan who gave humankind fire, since they were freezing their arses off. Zeus, being the jerk he is, chained P to a rock and had carrion birds eat his liver. Every day for eternity.)

Thoughtbot360
2007-11-02, 03:36 AM
Deities don't destroy the world because then they wouldn't have anywhere to use their malevolent powers. Also, there are good gods there to stop them.

Funny. Red mage once said that a cruel creator would have just made the air out of acid (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040228). Which, if you look at Gods like Nerull, is true.

Nerull is the God of Death, detailed in the PHB, and he hates life. All life. And his priests (why do people worship this guy in the first place?) are insane murderers who, in all truthfulness, can never appease Nerull because they themselves are living beings. He's quite a horror, but his concept is very illogical. For a god like Nerull to exist ONE of 2 factors must be present:

1) Other gods that oppose his agenda to an appreciable extent.
2) Gods DO NOT get their continued existence from worship. In fact, Nerull-esque gods are probably trying to destroy the universe to humiliate the god(s) that created it. (By the way, its a bit of a logical misstep to have Gods that require worship, AND to say that those same Gods created the world. The two are simply mutually exclusive. Unless the act of creating the world drained them so much that they now need worshipers to keep them alive.)

Ulzgoroth
2007-11-02, 06:08 AM
Or perhaps that creating the world is actually easier than you would think? Especially if you moderate 'require' to 'draw much power from', it makes perfect sense for the gods to have created the world to have a place to keep worshipers. (Though I don't like the idea of the major gods creating the universe)

Also, Nerul dislikes life, but he's got no problem with sentience. Undead minions don't bother him any.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-02, 06:46 AM
Gods DO NOT get their continued existence from worship. In fact, Nerull-esque gods are probably trying to destroy the universe to humiliate the god(s) that created it. (By the way, its a bit of a logical misstep to have Gods that require worship

Erm, since the gaining of divine ranks is related to worship or at least belief, I have to disagree with you there. Nerull has living and intelegent undead worshipers as well as a whole lot of people who are scared ****less of him and believe he's a god.


AND to say that those same Gods created the world. The two are simply mutually exclusive. Unless the act of creating the world drained them so much that they now need worshipers to keep them alive.)

Who has to say that those gods created the world? I don't think that's even implied in D&D mythology just as it is specifically refuted in Greek and Indian. D&D gods are much like greek gods, they are people (frequently petty people) who just have a LOT more power than anyone else.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-02, 07:01 AM
I tend to see Gods as more of an extension of PCs. What I mean is, a particular deity plays a specific role in the pantheon (party) and while they may may disagree (LG Paladin and CN Barbarian) they all metagame and *know* they are in the same party. So, Nerull doesn't whip up 50^50 Spectres and drop them on Greyhawk in the middle of the night because he, as a fellow "PC" agrees to not do crap like that and just sticks to other sinister plans.

There is also the aspect of deities enjoying watching mortals aspect of it. From a theological/philosophical point of view a deity has a hard time perceiving mortality and it's perils and pitfalls. This becomes more and more exponentially true with the fewer deities involved. (So at monotheism you end up with a deity that, due to it's infinite knowledge and power, barely can conceive of the life of of people)

Finally there is the age old checks and balances system. Depending on the game world, there is something holding everyone in place. On Greyhawk, open warfare is avoided because of Tharizdun. The gods have their own lives at stake if he escapes. So, their own selfish desires keeps them from wiping each other out. Forgotten Realms has Ao. I am not sure about Eberron.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-02, 07:03 AM
Mayhap I can quote Sacrifice, Shiny's humorous masterpiece?

"-Well, that's the last we'll see of old pyro. With his every follower destroyed, he won't becoming back.
-But I thought gods couldn't be killed?
-Not exactly. Gods can't die, but a god without followers has no power. Pyro will come back, but when he does, he certainly won't be the same guy we've been fighting."

BEST. GODS. EVAH! And a seriously nice explanation.

Keld Denar
2007-11-02, 10:42 AM
Finally there is the age old checks and balances system. Depending on the game world, there is something holding everyone in place. On Greyhawk, open warfare is avoided because of Tharizdun. The gods have their own lives at stake if he escapes. So, their own selfish desires keeps them from wiping each other out. Forgotten Realms has Ao. I am not sure about Eberron.

But Tharizdun is exactly the type of god who seeks the annihilation of EVERYTHING. Including the other gods. That's why the man keeps him down. But he does have worshippers on Oerth. They make Nerullites look like Girl Scouts.

And in other news, Nerull himself has non-evil followers. He is a member of the Old Faith, a demi-pantheon called the Old Kerk. Followers of this faith system (commonly found in Perrenland, among others) even carry around holy symbols of the death god. I'm not 100% on my canon, but I believe they honor his "death as a natural conclusion to life" aspect, rather than his cruel "kill em all, cause they are living" aspect. That said, I'm sure they still have a healthy fear and respect for him, but not more than any other god.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-02, 12:34 PM
But Tharizdun is exactly the type of god who seeks the annihilation of EVERYTHING. Including the other gods. That's why the man keeps him down. But he does have worshippers on Oerth. They make Nerullites look like Girl Scouts.

And in other news, Nerull himself has non-evil followers. He is a member of the Old Faith, a demi-pantheon called the Old Kerk. Followers of this faith system (commonly found in Perrenland, among others) even carry around holy symbols of the death god. I'm not 100% on my canon, but I believe they honor his "death as a natural conclusion to life" aspect, rather than his cruel "kill em all, cause they are living" aspect. That said, I'm sure they still have a healthy fear and respect for him, but not more than any other god.

That was my point though - that while you may get the one god per pantheon who is out to destroy everything, the other gods usually put him down faster than you can say "wish". You won't get a whole pantheon of gods who want to destroy everything (else everything would be destroyed already) even if the entire pantheon were evil. Tharizdun isn't really evil, at least not in the purest sense. He is evil, but evil like Cthulhu. Sacrifices, murder, arson, all well and good but at the end of the day, it is game over and everyone dies. The cultists are usually just worshipping so they die first or last. True evil doesn't want to destroy. It wants enslavement and suffering. Life forever. The purest evil would keep everyone alive, more or less forever, in agony and suffering in every imaginable way.

truemane
2007-11-02, 12:46 PM
Note: I'm enough of a dork that reading your title I thought Gods competing for limited resources in the midst of population growth...

That's the first thing I thought. But then that would be "Malthusianism and DnD" wouldn't it?

bosssmiley
2007-11-03, 09:16 AM
Just how evil can the gods be before, you know, they destroy the world?

Answer: Thurizdan (Greyhawk's living apocalypse of a god). Even the other evil gods thought he was so bonkers they helped imprison the guy.

Most of the gods play the game of light and darkness, good and evil to win it: Thurizdan just wanted to burn the playing pieces with great burnination...then burn the gaming board...and the house they were all playing in...and the other players...and their little dogs too.

Thurizdan = ultimate nightmare "Never invite him back again!" gamer.


What is a good reason why they wouldn't just destroy all of civilization?

The evil gods keep civilisation going for the same reason farmers shear their sheep, rather than slaughtering them out of hand. It's good to have a crop next year too... :smallwink: