The use of concealed weapons

[Seto]

Hello Playground,

I'm GMing a campaign, and one of my players made an Unchained Rogue (Knife Master). She has somewhat of a focus on hiding weapons, then drawing them and stabbing people (Quick Draw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat/), Underhanded (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo-rogue-talents/underhanded-ex/), Deft Palm (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo-rogue-talents/deft-palm-ex)).

Now, as I understand it, by RAW concealed weapons are not that great, or at least not in direct combat. Of course Sleight of Hand to conceal a weapon is valuable in situations when you're infiltrating, spying, or expecting to be frisked. But you don't need any feat or talent to do that, just a good Sleight of Hand score.
In combat, though? Even with Quick Draw, drawing a concealed weapon is a move action. Which makes it impossible to use with Underhanded, as you can't take a move and standard action in the surprise round (unless you're a Bandit Rogue or have the appropriate Wondrous item - I forget the name). You're better off being invisible or something, rather than concealing your weapon. By a very generous interpretation of Deft Palm (ie you're concealing the weapon in your hand rather than on your person), Deft Palm allows you to conceal a weapon without needing to draw it, thus allowing you to... use Underhanded as it seems to be intended. Otherwise, Deft Palm allows you to conceal a weapon while being observed, which... Sleight of Hand (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/sleight-of-hand) totally already lets you do (Hide Object). Besides, it's not like attacking with a concealed weapon grants you sneak attack if your opponent is aware of you, unlike Feinting - as far as I can tell, there's no use in-combat to concealing your weapon.

To sum up:
- Underhanded by itself doesn't work. It needs something that lets you draw and attack in the surprise round, or *maybe* Deft Palm.
- Deft Palm doesn't let you do anything that you couldn't already do with Sleight of Hand. Unless we go with the interpretation that your weapon is concealed in your hand/sleeve, and thus doesn't need to be drawn.
- I'm not sure concealing a weapon has any in-combat use at-all. The rules tell you how to hide your weapon, but don't give any mechanical advantage for it.

My questions are:
1. Is my understanding of RAW correct, or did I miss something big?
2. What items, feats or further talents could I recommend to my player to make the most out of it?
3. Any suggested rule changes? For example, I'm okay with allowing a concealed weapon to make the opponent flat-footed, and thus reap the sneak attack die. It costs a standard action to use Deft Palm anyway, so even that would be underpowered.

[Kayblis]

The Unchained Sleight of Hand uses allow you to draw a weapon as a Swift Action with a big penalty, from 15 ranks onward.

In 3.5, you can use Sleight of Hand as a Free Action with a -20 penalty. There's a feat called Master Pickpocket that lets you use SoH as a Free Action with a -10 penalty. If you're playing 3.PF, ask your DM for that feat, as it'd add the Free Action functionality. That way, you'll be able to use your features as intended with the appropriate check.

[Kurald Galain]

You are correct that Deft Palm, as written, does nothing. However, you can conceal a (small) weapon that is already drawn; this is what "palming" means.

The main advantage for hiding a weapon is getting it in areas where you're not supposed to have weapons. It is not meant to be powerful in combat; although you could easily give it an effect similar to feinting or dirty tricks.

And I'd say that anything requiring 15 ranks in whatever, or giving a -20 penalty to the roll, is pretty much useless in most actual campaigns :smallamused:

[legomaster00156]

A spring-loaded wrist launcher not only lets you hide a weapon (with a +2 bonus), but also retrieve it as a swift action. It costs 5 gp, there's no reason not to have one on each wrist.

[Darg]

My interpretation is that deft palm allows you to hide an already drawn weapon. Underhanded can be used with an undrawn ammunition thrown weapon such as shuriken. I believe pathfinder still has the free action to draw ammunition rule.

[Glaurung]

Not sure this helps but you might look at Wave Strike. The feat specifies the first turn of combat but says nothing about a surprise round. It’s probably better used in response to being ambushed.

In 3.5 the skill trick “Flick of the Wrist” (at least that is how I remember it...) might also help if allowed. (Nevermind: I checked this—it’s 3.0 and does not specify the surprise round or help with the action economy).