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View Full Version : Mythic 5e-- Goodbye Bounded Accuracy, Hello Skill Tricks



Grod_The_Giant
2020-09-10, 03:09 PM
D&D is, and pretty much always has been, a zero-to-hero system. You start as a schmuck, and end up approaching demigod status. That's clear when you look at the sorts of monsters high-level characters are expected to fight, and from the sheer, overwhelming power of high-level spells...but only in those two categories. A twentieth level Wizard can all but remake the world; a twentieth level Fighter isn't that much better than they were at first level. They have higher bonuses to ability checks, and can attempt and succeed at more difficult tasks, but--without a lenient GM--they don't really gain new capabilities as they level up. Neither does any other class, outside of spells and a few very niche class features.

I say that's no fun. I say that if my twentieth character can punch a demon lord to death, they damn well ought to be able to headbutt their way through stone walls and wrap cities full of commoners around their little finger.


What These Rules Are:

Fun. Hopefully.
Superhuman. Skill tricks are not in any way constrained by what's possible in "real life." Your character will become a demigod.
Enabling. Skill tricks in particular are meant to give characters vast amounts of power--the power to render certain types of challenge obsolete, and to blow past obstacles that would stop a normal 5e party. Mythic 5e characters have an almost unlimited ability to chart their own course.


What These Rules Are Not:

A linear-fighter-quadratic-wizard fix. Sort of. While they certainly gives mundane characters great power, casters benefit from these rules as much as anyone else.
Story- and setting-safe. These are rules for characters who can bend nations to their whim, not for ones who play nicely with the status quo. At higher levels, Mythic 5e characters will destabilize everything by sheer virtue of existence, and they will have tremendous power over the unfolding story of their campaign.
In accordance with 5e design philosophy. One of the edition's main goals was to prevent characters from ever totally outgrowing threats, so that enough goblins can threaten even a twentieth level character. That's decidedly not the goal here.
Externally balanced. While they should have minimal effects on combat, skill tricks will massively overshadow every non-combat-oriented ability in the game. That's by design.



Mythic Bonuses
In addition to Proficiency, characters gain a Mythic Bonus equal to one-half their character level (rounded down) to the following values:


Any attack or ability check you are Proficient in
All saving throws, proficient or non
Armor Class
Save DCs

Monsters, NPCs, and other such entities gain a corresponding Mythic Bonus, equal to one-half their Challenge Rating (rounded down). Their bonus functions the same as players’. Consequently, this must be taken into account when planning encounters,



If a monster is more powerful than the party, increase its xp value by 5% for every two points its CR exceeds the party’s average level
If a monster is less powerful than the party, decrease its xp value by 5% for every two points the party’s average level exceeds its CR.

Be careful-- if a monster has enough of a level advantage, the players might find themselves totally unable to injure it.

Skill Tricks
Of course, numbers aren't everything. Skill Tricks are flat-out superpowers. Unless otherwise specified, they have no limit on how often they can be used, and are considered to be non-magical effects.

At first level, select two skills you are proficient in and gain the associated abilities. If you are proficient in a set of Artisan's Tools, you may select the Craft skill trick in place of one skill; similarly, if you are proficient in Disguise of Thieves' Tools, you may select the corresponding tricks. As you gain levels, your skill trick will improve, automatically gaining new powers. Additionally, when making opposed ability checks, you have advantage on checks against creatures who do not possess the skill trick associated with their roll. Beginning at 11th level, you instead automatically succeed on opposed checks against creatures of CR 10 or less.

If a feat, class feature, racial ability, or other effect would allow you to add twice your Proficiency bonus to ability checks with a skill, do not do so. Instead, gain the associated skill trick. The number of additional skill tricks you can learn in this way is equal to your Proficiency bonus. If you cannot learn the trick now, you learn it as soon as your Proficiency bonus increases.


Acrobatics
You can use Acrobatics in place of Athletics for jumping and climbing. As a bonus action, you can make a DC 15 Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If you succeed, difficult terrain doesn’t cost you extra movement until the end of the current turn.

Beginning at 5th level, you can balance perfectly on surfaces as narrow as one inch. They don’t even need to be able to bear your full weight—if they will support at least one pound, you can stand on them.

Beginning at 11th level, when you are moving, nothing short of a solid wall can stop you—you can run up walls, hurl yourself through the air, dive through narrow windows, even run on water, with no checks required.

Beginning at 17th level, if there’s a path, you can take it. You can stand freely on surfaces as thin and frail as a human hair, and slip through any space larger than a quarter.

Animal Handling
You can use a bonus action on your turn to command one friendly beast within 60 feet of you that can hear you and that isn’t currently following the command of someone else. You decide now what action the beast will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you issue a general command that lasts for 1 minute, such as to guard a particular area.

Beginning at 5th level, You can freely communicate simple ideas with animals. Not only can you convey your meaning to beasts through sounds and body language, you can understand the rough content of their responses.

Beginning at 11th level, all animals, from the flightiest deer to the most vicious wolf, trust you you. Their attitude towards you is never worse than unfriendly, and they will not attack you or your companions without your striking the first blow.

Beginning at 17th level, animals will obey your commands unquestioningly, risking death if necessary. Regardless of their Intelligence score, they understand the intent behind your orders perfectly.

Arcana
Select two first level spells with the (Ritual) tag from the Wizard spell list. You may cast them as rituals.

Beginning at 5th level, once per scene, you can attempt to introduce a new fact about magic, extraplanar creatures, or similar such topics. If the GM agrees that it is interesting and/or plausible, you may attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check, with a DC of the GM’s choice based on how obscure the fact would be, or how advantageous it would be at this instant. If you succeed on your check, the fact becomes part of the setting.

Beginning at 11th level, over the course of a long rest, you can speak with an extraplanar entity, as the Contact Other Plane spell.

Beginning at 17th level, your understanding of the planes rivals that of the gods. You may perform a special once-in-a-lifetime ritual, taking one week, and create your own demiplane. Your plane can be up to one square mile in size, laid out in any fashion you wish, and its environment reflects your desires upon performing the ritual. You can factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. You can’t create lingering magical effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium, nor can you create complex structures--you’re limited to stone, dirt, iron, and similar materials, and you can't create anything more grandiose than a castle or siege engine. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane.

Your plane contains up to one hundred inhabitants. These can be any creature with a CR of 1 or less. All are fanatically devoted to you, and their alignments as yours. If slain, they are permanently destroyed, but replacements are birthed at a rate of one per day until the plane reaches its population limit again.

You may cast Gate as a ritual. Doing so requires no material component, but you may only open gates between your demiplane and your most recent position outside of it.

Athletics
Athletics is a particularly broad skill, covering multiple types of physical prowess. When learning an Athletics skill trick, you must choose either Brawn or Endurance.

Athletics—Brawn
You can lift twice as much as your Strength score normally allows, and count as one size category larger for the purposes of grappling and shoving.

Beginning at 5th level, you can lift five times as much as your Strength score normally allows, and perform feats of strength such as shattering a sturdy wooden wall with your bare hands or snapping iron manacles.

Beginning at 11th level, you can lift ten times as much as your Strength score normally allows, and perform feats of strength such as breaking through stone walls or uprooting fully grown trees.

Beginning at 17th level, you can lift twenty times as much as your Strength score normally allows, and perform feats of strength such as toppling a stone tower or ripping apart steel armor with your bare hands.

Athletics—Endurance
You have advantage on any rolls made to resist fatigue, and only need to sleep for two hours a night.

Beginning at 5th level, you can jump twice as far, and you never acquire levels of Exhaustion from mundane activity.

Beginning at 11th level, you can run cross-country at speeds of up to fifty miles an hour, and in combat your movement speeds are tripled.

Beginning at 17th level, as an action, you may jump up to one mile in any direction.

Craft
Special: You may select this skill trick if you are proficient in at least one set of Artisan's Tools.

You automatically know the value, quality, and approximate place of creation of any object you see. This ability only applies to objects that could be created with a set of Artisan’s Tools you’re familiar with.

Beginning at 5th level, you can take one minute to quickly piece together a piece of mundane equipment of up to five cubic feet in size, consuming up to half the item's market cost in raw materials. The crafted item is visually crude, but otherwise functions normally. You must have the appropriate artisan’s tools on hand and be proficient in their use.

Beginning at 11th level, you can take ten minutes to quickly assemble a piece of mundane equipment or structure of up to one thousand cubic feet in size. You must have sufficient raw materials, but they can be truly raw—you can build a stone wall with nothing more than a pickaxe and a vein of granite. You must have the appropriate artisan’s tools on hand and be proficient in their use.

Beginning at 17th level, with one day’s effort, you can complete the same amount of work of a thousand men toiling for a year—building a pyramid, forging arms and armor for an entire army, designing and constructing a new city, and similar such feats.

Deception
Your lies cannot be detected by magic.

Beginning at 5th level, yhe first time each scene a creature succeeds on an Insight check against your deceptions, they’re left uncertain about what is true, giving you the opportunity to cover for yourself. They will not fall for the same lie twice. In addition, creatures with the Insight skill trick do not automatically recognize your lies unless their level or Challenge Rating is greater than yours.

Beginning at 11th level, yhe first time an opponent succeeds on a check to uncover your true motives, they don’t uncover the truth—only a second layer of deception, which they believe to be truth.

Beginning at 17th level,no bluff you attempt, no matter how implausible, is viewed as obviously false. You can indeed convince someone that they’re actually a kangaroo transformed into a human, or the king in disguise.

Disguise Kit
When using a disguise kit, you may don a disguise in a single action. When doing so, you can alter your gender, age, ethnicity, voice, accent--even your scent. You can appear up to one foot taller and twice as heavy, or one foot shorter and half your true weight.

Beginning at 5th level, you may disguise yourself as a creature up to one size larger or smaller than you. If the creature has limbs you do not, such as wings or a tail, you can imitate those as well. You may even produce minor supernatural effects such as glowing eyes, color-changing skin, or appearing to float just above the ground.

Beginning at 11th level, even your disguises come with disguises. You may don two separate disguises at the same time. Creatures looking at you see only the disguise of your choice (or your original form). You can even appear as different creatures to a pair of guards standing side-by-side.

Beginning at 17th level, your disguises are utterly perfect. No magic other than a deity's can spot you, and creatures don't think to question your identity no matter how out of character you act. You can make yourself appear up to two size categories larger or smaller.

History
By handling an object for at least ten minutes, you can determine how old it is, where it was made, who its most recent owner was, and what it was most recently used to do.

Beginning at 5th level, once per scene, you can attempt to introduce a new fact about past events, political organizations, or similar such topics. If the GM agrees that it is interesting and/or plausible, you may attempt an Intelligence (History) check, with a DC of the GM’s choice based on how obscure the fact would be, or how advantageous it would be at this instant. If you succeed on your check, the fact becomes part of the setting.

Beginning at 11th level, over the course of a long rest, you can deduce tremendous knowledge from the slightest clues. This grants you knowledge as if you had cast Legend Lore.

Beginning at 17th level, you have discovered the location of a long-lost artifact. This artifact has abilities of one Legendary or Very Rare magic item, or the combined properties of Rare magic items, and possesses two Minor and one Major Beneficial Property from the tables on page 219 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. It may also possess up to three Detrimental Properties of your choice, with each Detrimental Property allowing you to choose one additional Beneficial Property of corresponding magnitude. Alternately, you can work with the Game Master to design a unique artifact. You still must retrieve the artifact, which can be found somewhere deep in the wilderness, although you know the exact location.

Insight
Upon meeting a creature, you can instantly recognize the ideal or bond to which they attach the most importance.

Beginning at 5th level, you automatically recognize lies when you hear them. This doesn't mean you know the truth, only that the speaker is intentionally speaking falsely. Incorrect statements that the speaker does not know are false do not come across as lies

Beginning at 11th level, as an action, you can attempt to read a creature’s inner thoughts. Make a Wisdom (Insight) check, opposed by their Charisma (Deception). Distant or particularly alien creatures have advantage on this check, as do creatures with the Deception skill trick. If you succeed, you learn their current surface thoughts and emotional state.

Beginning at 17th level, no heart is hidden to you. At all times, you are aware of the surface thoughts and emotional states of creatures within 60ft of you, save for those with the Deception skill trick.

Intimidation
You do not suffer a penalties to Intimidation checks from being outnumbered, unarmed, or otherwise at a martial disadvantage.

Beginning at 5th level, anyone you successfully intimidate remains afraid of you for long after you’ve left, continuing to follow your demands and avoid upsetting you until they complete a long rest. Even then, they remain unsettled by you-- for one year afterwards, you have advantage on Intimidation checks against them.

Beginning at 11th level, creatures that are immune to fear gain no protection against your intimidation, and even mindless creatures such as zombies, golems, and oozes can be cowed.

Beginning at 17th level, any creature attempting to act against you while you are present or strike the first blow against you must make a Wisdom saving throw, against a difficulty of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. On a failure, they are too afraid to do so, and cannot try again for the remainder of the scene.

Investigation
You can take the Search action as a bonus action. When you spring a trap, you may use a reaction to roll a new Intelligence (Investigation) check to spot that trap. If you succeed, you do not trigger the trap.

Beginning at 5th level, by spending one minute examining a scene, you can reconstruct the exact physical actions taken there within the last twenty-four hours. You can determine how many times someone was stabbed by the pattern of blood splatters, how long a thief lurked in one place by the depth of their footprints, and so on. An Investigation check might be required if one of the parties attempted to hide evidence of their presence or actions.

Beginning at 11th level, you can reconstruct physical actions from up to a week ago. When you do, you can also determine the emotions each participant was feeling at the time.

Beginning at 17th level, you can reconstruct physical actions from up to a year ago. By spending one hour meditating on a scene, you can mentally reenact history, replaying the scene from the perspective of a participant as though you were there at the time. While doing so, you can examine evidence that is no longer present, and recreate fine movements so exactly that you could read what a participant was writing at the time.

Medicine
You can stabilize an adjacent dying creature as an action, and recognize the effects of poison and disease with a single glance.

Beginning at 5th level, if you spend at least ten minutes tending to an injured ally during a short rest, any hit dice they spend are treated as though they had rolled the maximum possible result.

Beginning at 11th level, with an hour of surgery, you can perform such miracles as reattaching severed limbs, flawlessly transplanting organs from donors who died in the last day, and rejuvenating old scars. You may cure disease and poison as an action. Both abilities require a healer’s kit to function.

Beginning at 17th level, by spending one hour and five hundred gold worth of special medicines and reagents, you can restore a creature to life. This functions as the Raise Dead spell, save that it can be used on corpses up to one year old. If the corpse is missing body parts, you must provide replacements from a live donor or equally fresh corpse.

Nature
Select two first level spells with the (Ritual) tag from the Druid spell list. You may cast them as rituals.

Beginning at 5th level, once per scene, you can attempt to introduce a new fact about plants, animals, weather, or similar such topics. If the GM agrees that it is interesting and/or plausible, you may attempt an Intelligence (Nature) check, with a DC of the GM’s choice based on how obscure the fact would be, or how advantageous it would be at this instant. If you succeed on your check, the fact becomes part of the setting.

Beginning at 11th level, over the course of a long rest, you can speak with the spirits of the wild, as the Commune with Nature spell.

Beginning at 17th level, after spending a week in study, you can make a pronouncement about a given location you are familiar with, either declaring that it shall be struck by a natural disaster within one year, or that it shall be safe from such disasters for a century. This is one part prophecy and one part direct command over the elements-- you can determine the general form of a disaster, and give a one-week window during which it will occur, but the GM determines exactly how it unfolds. At any given time, you may only have one disaster "pending" and one area protected--making a new pronouncement lifts the previous effects.

Perception
Being in a lightly obscured area doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks if you can both see and hear.

Beginning at 5th level, you can see, hear, and smell ten times farther than normal. This increases the range of your Darkvision by 60ft, or grants you 60ft Darkvision if you didn’t already have it.

Beginning at 11th level, you can detect scents that are up to one week old as if they were fresh. You gain blindsight to a range of 10ft, or increase the range of any blindsight you already possessed by the same amount.

Beginning at 17th level, you gain truesight out to a range of 30ft.

Performance
You have advantage on Charisma checks against any creature who has watched you perform in the last hour.

Beginning at 5th level, while you are performing, onlookers stop and respectfully watch your until you are done. Anyone trying to leave early or interrupt your performance must first succeed on a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. Violence and active threats automatically break the spell.

Beginning at 11th level, if you perform in front of one or more creatures for at least ten minutes, you can attempt a Charisma (Performance) check, with a DC of 20 + the group’s average Wisdom modifier. If you succeed, onlookers are overwhelmed by a particular emotion, and inspired to act on it for the next hour. Individual characters may instead attempt a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier to resist.

Beginning at 17th level, the mood-altering effects of your performance last until the affected targets complete a long rest. Moreover, affected targets seek to spread the word of your performance. To do so, they may attempt a Charisma (Performance) check, opposed by their target’s Wisdom saving throw. If they succeed, the new creature is affected as though by your original performance. Each creature can only attempt to spread your influence once—but newly converted subjects can continue to spread it.

Persuasion
Persuasion is a particularly broad skill, covering multiple types of social interaction. When learning a Persuasion skill trick, you must choose either Personality or Wordplay.


Persuasion—Personality
When meeting a creature for the first time, their attitude towards you is one step more friendly than normal.

Beginning at 5th level, allies who can see and hear you have advantage on saving throws against fear and charm effects, as well as any form of social influence from a foe’s skill trick.

Beginning at 11th level, if a creature who can see and hear you is about to say something you don’t wish them to, you may use a reaction to force them to make a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. On a failure, they forget the topic they were speaking about or point they were going to make, and do not remember about it until the end of the conversation. Even if other creatures attempt to remind them, your target will brush them off. On a success, they do not notice that the attempt was made. Succeed or fail, that creature cannot be affected by this ability again until they complete a long rest.

Beginning at 17th level, you have enough raw personal magnetism to totally overwhelm lesser men. Whenever you meet a creature for the first time, you may force them to make a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. On a failure, they are permanently charmed by you. This effect can only be lifted by a Wish or Miracle spell, another creature of at least CR 17 with this skill trick, or if you actively attempt to kill the target.

Persuasion--Wordplay
You are instinctively aware of social expectations and customs, no matter the circumstance you find yourself in.

Beginning at 5th level, when attempting to persuade people to take a course of action, your suggests will always sound inoffensive, if not downright appealing.

Beginning at 11th level, if you speak to a creature for at least one minute, you can force them to make a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. On a failure, the creature is affected as though by a Suggestion spell. On a success, they do not notice that the attempt was made. Succeed or fail, that creature cannot be affected by this ability again until they complete a long rest.

Beginning at 17th level, over time, you can completely reshape someone’s mind. If you speak to a creature for at least one hour, they must make a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. On a failure, they are affected as though by a Modify Memory spell cast from an ninth level spell slot. On a success, they do not notice that the attempt was made. Succeed or fail, that creature cannot be affected by this ability again for one week.

Religion
Select two first level spells with the (Ritual) tag from the Cleric spell list. You may cast them as rituals.

Beginning at 5th level, once per scene, you can attempt to introduce a new fact about deities, religious organizations, holy rites, or similar such topics. If the GM agrees that it is interesting and/or plausible, you may attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check, with a DC of the GM’s choice based on how obscure the fact would be, or how advantageous it would be at this instant. If you succeed on your check, the fact becomes part of the setting.

Beginning at 11th level, over the course of a long rest, you can speak with a deity or other divine spirit, as the Commune spell.

Beginning at 17th level, you may cast Planar Ally as a ritual.

Sleight of Hand
As a bonus action, you can make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to plant something on someone else, conceal an object on a creature, lift a purse, or take something from a pocket.

Beginning at 5th level, after making a successful Sleight of Hand check, the victim does not notice the result of your action for one minute. This allows you to steal objects in plain sight and potentially escape before the theft is discovered. Only a physical action, such as attempting to draw a sword that is no longer there, can break the spell.

Beginning at 11th level, when attempting to pick a pocket, palm an item, or perform a similar feat, the object’s size is almost irrelevant. You can make such attempts on objects as large as your torso.

Beginning at 17th level, when attempting to pick a pocket, palm an item, or perform a similar feat, you may do so from up to ten feet away and behind solid barriers with no penalty.

Stealth
If you are hidden, you can move up to 10 feet in the open without revealing yourself if you end the move in a position where you’re not clearly visible.

Beginning at 5th level, you need no more than a fleeting instant of distraction to vanish, allowing you to Hide even without the benefits of cover or concealment.

Beginning at 11th level, whenever you are not moving, you can choose to become invisible. While standing still, you are imperceptible even to creatures with Truesight.

Beginning at 17th level, when a creature sees you, you can attempt to hide even from memory. They must make a Wisdom saving throw, against a difficulty of 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier. On a failure, you slip from their thoughts. They cannot identify you no matter how well they know you, and they forget you as soon as you are no longer in sight or earshot..

Survival
You can forage for yourself and up to six creatures in any environment, and a you may conduct the same group through difficult terrain without slowing their overland travel speed.

Beginning at 5th level, you can attempt to track flying and swimming creatures with no penalty. In addition, environmental conditions such as extreme heat or cold do not affect you.

Beginning at 11th level, if a creature teleports, plane shifts, or otherwise vanishes from where they were standing, you can still track them. By analyzing minute clues at their last known position, you can determine the destination of their teleportation effect. In addition, you can protect up to six allies from environmental conditions and dangers.

Beginning at 17th level, no natural hazard can harm you—you can swim in lava, drink acid, walk along the floor of the ocean, an even withstand the vacuum of space. Only magically conjured ice, flame, and so on can harm you. This conveys no special resistance to weapon attacks, however.

Thieves' Tools
You do not require a set of proper thieves' tools--you can use even the crudest improvised tools with no penalty. Attempting to pick a lock or disarm a trap takes you no time at all; to the eyes of onlookers, you barely need to brush a doorknob for it to spring open.

Beginning at 5th level, if you would trigger a trap, you may use your reaction to make a Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) check and attempt to disable it before it fully activates. The DC of this check is as normal for the trap you are attempting to disarm.

Beginning at 11th level, you sneer at traps. You automatically succeed on all saving throws from traps and similar emplaced hazards, and any attack rolls they might make automatically miss you. If there would normally be a partial effect on a successful saving throw, you are wholly unaffected.

Beginning at 17th level, locks are no longer a concern. As an action, you may pass through a locked door or window without even touching the lock--or barrier.



So... let me know what you think! In particular, I'd like to make sure that the various skill tricks are balanced against one another.

Fable Wright
2020-09-10, 03:30 PM
This feels, to me, like porting Pathfinder 2's level-to-everything system onto the existing 5e model. A fair number of people advocated for (and have run on their own) half-level-to-everything in that system, and the framework is in place to make it work. Their skill feat system seems to encompass the skill tricks in a more flexible manner—you can pick and choose from any number of trees.

My biggest question here is why you are applying that as a framework over fifth edition, when Pathfinder 2 has been built with these assumptions from the ground up and is now mature enough to really come into its own as a system.

cutlery
2020-09-10, 03:36 PM
I completely feel the sentiment here - I am reminded of the first Avengers movie where Iron Man and Thor (and The Hulk) are battling rival gods and/or the heavies of an invading cosmic army and Captain America... is down with the ground pounders fighting infantry. I feel like that's what being a fighter is.

Anyway - first thought -

Mythic bonus to damage rolls might make an evoker's upcast magic missile even more awesome (at level 9, because why not? 9d4+9+45+90 or 166.5); maybe this is ok as it costs resources, and isn't quite as cool as what the skills do, but a 5th level magic missile at 20 would do 92.5. Probably not really an issue, as a fighter can crank out an extra 10 damage per attack, too. Cantrips other than Eldritch Blast fall way behind, for what that's worth.

The skill options though are fantastic; someone with deep investment in investigation ought to rival Misty Knight or Sherlock in their ability to recreate a scene.

Dienekes
2020-09-10, 05:37 PM
While D&D Saga Edition sounds great, I wonder if 5e was really the place to port the underlying math.

That said, loving skill tricks.

MaxWilson
2020-09-10, 05:53 PM
I don't feel that it is actually true that D&D has always been a zero-to-hero system, especially not intrinsically. I think that's a trend that started when WotC bought the brand and created 3E, and started trying to make high-level PCs feel like superheroes instead of like fantasy archetypes from literature/story.

In AD&D and BECMI (and I assume in oD&D as well), a 20th level Fighter is very tough, tougher than ten men, but there's no way he could defeat 100 orcs without very special equipment (like a Ring of Vampiric Regeneration and armor forged from the hide of a Great Wyrm Shadow Dragon). Using regular equipment he'd have a tough time even beating 20 orcs in a fight. He's tough like Robin Hood or Conan, not like Achilles or Heracles or Superman, and senselessly dying from an unlucky sting by a regular poisonous scorpion is totally on the table for him, unless he has some kind of technological (read: magic item) that makes him immune to poison.

This isn't just a Fighter thing either. A 20th level wizard will die to his own Fireball if he accidentally miscalculates interior volume and gets caught in it (Fireball 10d6 = 35 HP of damage, and a 20th level wizard has 10d4+10 = 35 HP). Pre-WotC D&D doesn't have mythic heroes.

Waar
2020-09-10, 05:57 PM
Mythic Bonuses
In addition to Proficiency, characters gain a Mythic Bonus equal to one-half their character level (rounded down) to the following values:


Any attack or ability check you are Proficient in
All saving throws, proficient or non
Armor Class
Save DCs
Damage rolls

Monsters, NPCs, and other such entities gain a corresponding Mythic Bonus, equal to one-half their Challenge Rating (rounded down). Their bonus functions the same as playersÂ’, save for damage: NPCs do not add their Mythic bonus to damage; instead, they subtract it from any damage they take. Consequently, this must be taken into account when planning encounters,



If a monster is more powerful than the party, increase its xp value by 5% for every two points its CR exceeds the partyÂ’s average level
If a monster is less powerful than the party, decrease its xp value by 5% for every two points the partyÂ’s average level exceeds its CR.

Be careful-- if a monster has enough of a level advantage, the players might find themselves totally unable to injure it.



I think you are underestimating the effects of monsters getting a +/- modifier to “everything”. I think the actual value should be closer to 20% per point of Mythic Bonus difference, though it is hard to judge.

Greywander
2020-09-10, 06:21 PM
The skill tricks seems like an interesting idea. I skimmed through them, so I couldn't say if specific ones seemed balanced or not, but the general idea could work, I think.

The mythic bonus, on the other hand... Not only do I not see the point, but in my mind this is a regression back to some of the problems that plagued earlier editions of D&D. Your numbers get higher, but the monster's numbers also get higher, so in the end it's kind of pointless, right? But it's worse than that. A monster that is significantly stronger than you is now even stronger, while enemies that are weaker than you are now much weaker. It's already the case that a high CR monster like a dragon or beholder will destroy a low level party in a direct fight, but they're not so strong that they can't be subdued with some creativity and luck, which makes for more interesting stories. Yes, arming 200 peasants with bows to take down an ancient dragon isn't exactly the most glamorous thing, but it still feels great when you put in the effort to train and organize them and the plan ends up working out. Likewise, weak enemies like goblins and kobolds can still fill a niche in higher level play, but with the mythic bonus you'd need to introduce stronger palette-swapped versions like some kind of JRPG.

It seems what you're trying to do with the mythic bonus is make high level characters feel like they're actually strong, fantastically so. HP scaling already does this to a degree, so you're almost supernaturally tough. With magic armor and shields, you can get really high AC. As in, it's actually not that hard to get AC so high that even a tarrasque needs a 20 to hit you. Magic weapons increase both your accuracy and damage. If you don't want to rely on magic items, then a decent equivalent might be to add half of your proficiency bonus (rounded down) to your AC, attack, and damage rolls (but only for martial classes?).

Saving throws are tricky. I think it's intentional that everyone has their weakness, and if you can figure out what it is then you can exploit it. This might be something that needs to be fixed on a class-by-class basis. Paladins are already fine with their Aura of Protection, as are monks with Diamond Soul. The fighter's Indomitable isn't as strong as one might like; a tweak might be something like using Indomitable allows you to add your prof. bonus to the reroll, even if you're not proficient in that save.

Alternatively, you might try something like Heroic Actions and Resistance (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596581-Solo-small-party-Try-Heroic-Resistance-Actions), even with a full party. Maybe they start with no heroic actions/resistance, but get one of each at 5th level, and one more at 11th and 17th level.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-09-10, 08:45 PM
My biggest question here is why you are applying that as a framework over fifth edition, when Pathfinder 2 has been built with these assumptions from the ground up and is now mature enough to really come into its own as a system.
Because my friends and I know 5e, and if I'm going to make them to learn a new game it's going to be something substantially different.


Mythic bonus to damage rolls might make an evoker's upcast magic missile even more awesome (at level 9, because why not? 9d4+9+45+90 or 166.5); maybe this is ok as it costs resources, and isn't quite as cool as what the skills do, but a 5th level magic missile at 20 would do 92.5. Probably not really an issue, as a fighter can crank out an extra 10 damage per attack, too. Cantrips other than Eldritch Blast fall way behind, for what that's worth.
The thing is, if you're fighting foes of similar power the Mythic Bonus cancels out-- that 9th level evoker will get an additional +4 damage with each missile, but their target will take ~4 less damage from each hit.


But it's worse than that. A monster that is significantly stronger than you is now even stronger, while enemies that are weaker than you are now much weaker. It's already the case that a high CR monster like a dragon or beholder will destroy a low level party in a direct fight, but they're not so strong that they can't be subdued with some creativity and luck, which makes for more interesting stories. Yes, arming 200 peasants with bows to take down an ancient dragon isn't exactly the most glamorous thing, but it still feels great when you put in the effort to train and organize them and the plan ends up working out. Likewise, weak enemies like goblins and kobolds can still fill a niche in higher level play, but with the mythic bonus you'd need to introduce stronger palette-swapped versions like some kind of JRPG.
That's exactly the point, though. The mythic bonus is explicitly there to undo bounded accuracy. That creatures of higher power are overwhelmingly strong and that mooks of lower power are non-entities, that you progress past goblins and up to dragons. This is mythic 5e-- if your DM is using these variant rules and palate-swapped goblins at level 10, they're doing something wrong.

The treadmill effect does rear its head here, true, but...

I'm not using 4e's level-based skill challenge mechanics here. The world isn't scaling to the characters; a smooth brick wall will be a DC 15 Athletics check to climb at level 1, and it'll be a DC 15 check at level 20. Nor is the monster manual filled with advanced versions of weaker foes. You'll fight goblins at level 1, ogres at level 5, giants at level 10, and so on. Progression.
Characters in 5e have more than just numbers on their sheets. As you gain levels, you gain new abilities, and new tactical options open.
You're going to encounter foes who aren't exactly level matched, because that's how the game works-- an extra +1 or +2 will change the encounter balance, but it's not going to push monsters out of the ballpark they're in. You might need fifteen orcs against a level 5 party instead of ten, but there's a still a wide swathe of usable CRs at any given level.
Most of all, the treadmill effect is more of a theoretical discussion issue than a real one, and exists more on the GM's side than the players. From the player's perspective? Big numbers are fun. Knowing that you utterly outclass those piddly NPCs is fun.


(I'd also like to state for the record that I'm not saying that mythic 5e is the only way to play D&D. Campaigns with epic heroes reshaping the world can be fun, and campaigns with flawed mortal heroes struggling against a gritty world can be just fun. I've worked on variants for both sides (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?576456-Variant-Grim-and-Gritty-5e-(updated-with-new-feats)) of the equation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614151-Grittier-Hit-Points-Endurance-and-Life).)


Saving throws are tricky. I think it's intentional that everyone has their weakness, and if you can figure out what it is then you can exploit it. This might be something that needs to be fixed on a class-by-class basis. Paladins are already fine with their Aura of Protection, as are monks with Diamond Soul. The fighter's Indomitable isn't as strong as one might like; a tweak might be something like using Indomitable allows you to add your prof. bonus to the reroll, even if you're not proficient in that save.

The mythic bonus to nonproficient saves cancels out the bonus to saving throw DC-- without it targeting a weak save becomes even more overwhelming.

JNAProductions
2020-09-10, 09:31 PM
I don't like the damage bit. Perhaps add/subtract 1/4th damage? I kinda get why it's there, but it feels a little much.

Haven't looked at all the skill tricks, but the ones I did read are cool. That being said, I'd like to see a way to access more of them.

Finally! Shame on you Grod. You know this belongs in homebrew. :P

Edit: So, something I'd really like to see, is options in this.

So the Tier 1 ability is set.
Tier 2 offers two abilities, pick one.
Tier 3, three abilities, pick one.
Tier 4 offers five, pick two.

Something like that. Make characters not as samey under this.

Fable Wright
2020-09-10, 11:06 PM
Because my friends and I know 5e, and if I'm going to make them to learn a new game it's going to be something substantially different.

You're making a substantially different game.



The thing is, if you're fighting foes of similar power the Mythic Bonus cancels out-- that 9th level evoker will get an additional +4 damage with each missile, but their target will take ~4 less damage from each hit.

How about this? Just steal Pathfinder 2's system where if you beat a save or AC by 10, it's a crit success and you deal double damage. Each +1 to hit now translates to roughly +10% extra damage per attack if you were hitting enemies on a 10+. Though the math gets a little weird when advantage gets common. It's simple and elegant. While this does make Bless and Archery fighting style much more dangerous than they are in regular 5e... so does the rest of the variant.

MeimuHakurei
2020-09-11, 02:51 AM
-The higher level Int skill features (besides Investigation) could stand some more thought - as is, they're all nearly identical at 5/11/17.
-Maybe some of the social based Skill Tricks could offer more explicit ways to counter one another. Level 17 Insight vs. Level 17 Deception for instance.
-I'd like to see a Theivery Skill Trick that you get if you're proficient in Theives' Tools.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-09-11, 08:45 AM
I don't like the damage bit. Perhaps add/subtract 1/4th damage? I kinda get why it's there, but it feels a little much.
Hmm... the more I look at it, the more I feel like removing the damage bonus altogether. I like the idea of each attack you make getting deadlier, but... 5e already scales damage pretty well, and it's a little wonky on the monster side.


Edit: So, something I'd really like to see, is options in this.

So the Tier 1 ability is set.
Tier 2 offers two abilities, pick one.
Tier 3, three abilities, pick one.
Tier 4 offers five, pick two.

Something like that. Make characters not as samey under this.
But that would be so much more work!

Honestly, though, I'm not sure how possible that is, at least for some skills. Skill tricks aren't supposed to touch combat, and outside of combat 5e just... isn't granular enough. Exalted (where I freely admit to stealing a lot of these effects from) can have dozens of social powers because there are already solid rules for social stuff. There's a framework to operate within, moving parts to play with, multiple skill-type values to affect. 5e doesn't really have anything beyond "make a Charisma check," and it's hard to hang a lot of different powers on that.

:/


-The higher level Int skill features (besides Investigation) could stand some more thought - as is, they're all nearly identical at 5/11/17.
Partially that's because I was trying to emphasize physical and social skills more than traditional magic-y ones... to a larger extent, though, it's because I was having trouble coming up with stuff. Most ideas I'd associate with being a master historian or arcane savant are already part of the magic system. I'd love to hear ideas if you've got them, though!


-Maybe some of the social based Skill Tricks could offer more explicit ways to counter one another. Level 17 Insight vs. Level 17 Deception for instance.
Thaaaaat's a good point. I'll see what I can do.


-I'd like to see a Theivery Skill Trick that you get if you're proficient in Theives' Tools.
Hmm... I can probably come up with something. Spot traps as a reaction, instantly pick locks, walk through locked doors...

BloodSnake'sCha
2020-09-11, 09:00 AM
I liked skill tricks in the past but I think you need to make them a type of action or part of action/movement with a DC that a character can attempt instead of auto success at higher levels. Having a chance at failure make it better IMO.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-09-14, 06:16 PM
Added skill tricks for Disguise Kits and Thieves' Tools, and a few more inter-trick interactions.

MeeposFire
2020-09-15, 01:48 AM
Honestly this is essentially 4e's skeleton which funny enough I am a big 4e fan but honestly if I want to play 4e I will play 4e rather than take 5e and make it into 4e. I actually like that in 5e they have bounded accuracy so to me this is missing the mark.

It would probably be easier to just use 4e and call encounter powers "on a short rest" abilities, daily powers as "on a long rest", and write out the powers like you would see in 5e (because 5e hides many aspects of the 4e powers in this fashion). I think it would be easier to 5eify 4e by changing the format and the look/flavor of the mechanics than it will be to 4eify 5e by changing all of the base mechanics of the game for almost everything.

JNAProductions
2020-09-21, 10:35 PM
Grod, you done any more work on this?

I want to use it for a game, but I still feel that the skill tricks are a bit limited in customization.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-09-30, 09:33 AM
Grod, you done any more work on this?

I want to use it for a game, but I still feel that the skill tricks are a bit limited in customization.
Ack! Sorry I missed your post.

To answer your question... I overhauled the capstone abilities for the four knowledge skills (Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion) to make them more unique, and I dropped the damage bonus. I don't know how much more I can really add, unfortunately.

To make the tricks a little more customizable... hmm. Maybe break each trick into its four component pieces (ie, the 1st, 5th, 11th, and 17th level abilities), and pick... oh, one piece at every odd-numbered level, with each piece requiring the lower-level ones? (Ie, before you can auto-detect lies with Insight, you have to be able to auto-detect Bonds and Ideals). That gives you a bit more latitude to customize your progression.