Harry Potter Wizards are Stupid

[Rowanomicon]

No, this is not a flame against Harry Potter books, the author, or any of the characters.

This is a discussion of the lack of education for wizards in the Harry Potter world.

Harry Potter wizards, if born into a wizard family, have no education, except form their parent, until they turn eleven.
Once they are eleven they go to Hogwarts (or the nearest magic school).

At Hogwarts they teach many types of magic as well as potion brewing and care for magical plants and animals.

They also teach history, wizard history. It is explicitly stated that basically no one pays attention to this class any more than they need to to pass.

They do not teach math, logic/reason, language/literature, scientific method, social sciences (besides history), biology (excluding care for magical plants and animals), physics, chemistry (excluding potions)...

Many of these things are very important in how a person thinks.

If a wizard is born to a muggle family then they receive a normal education until they start attending Hogwarts.
I'm not very familiar with the British school system (although I am under the impression that European schools are ahead of North American ones) so I'll consider this an Elementary education.
I think that it is this education that gave Hermione and Harry a one-up on the rest of the wizarding world.

In conclusion:
Maybe if Vodlemort and his minions had an Elementary education they could have stood a chance against kids.

Anyway, what do you all think about the lack of education in the wizarding world?

[PlatinumJester]

It's a fictional book dude.

[Morty]

It's a fictional book dude.

It doesn't mean it shouldn't be logically consistent.

[Rowanomicon]

It's a fictional book dude.

What's your point? That we shouldn't discuss fiction? I think you might be on the wrong forum.


Something I forgot to add to my first post was that muggles gain a lot of understanding simply from living in a muggle society. Many great discoveries have been mad in history and passed into the realm of common knowledge. Wizards, however, would not be raised with this.

[warty goblin]

Which means that the place to overanalyze it is here and the time to do so is now. :smallwink:

I confess I hadn't actually noticed this little detail before, which is quite interesting actually- its amazing that wizard literacy rates don't plumate, given all the time they spend doing other stuff, and not teaching the wizardlets to read...

[PlatinumJester]

It doesn't mean it shouldn't be logically consistent.

Yeah because people casting spells is logical.

However I guess you are right in thinking that most of the muggle borns were superior in most ways to Wizard borns.

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, one must assume that literacy is taught by the parents since all the first years seem able to read.

I'd say it's a miracle that Tom Riddle, growing up as he did, was literate.

Even if everyone has basic literacy they do not get any real lessons in the intricacies of language or literature and therefore never experience the fun mind-expanding that comes from such studies.

[Morty]

Yeah because people casting spells is logical.

There is vast gulf between "fantasy" and "illogical".
OP brings up fairly interesting point. I guess little wizards are taught basic skills such as writing/reading and maths by their parents, but aside from that, I don't know.

[SmartAlec]

Why don't Wizards rule the world?

Simple, really; they're a throwback. Magic is a stagnant, dead force in the world, and has long been supplanted by Science. The Wizards merely keep it going, like Ancient History students. So, naturally, magical studies are a little degenerate and archaic.

There is reference to things like 'Arithmancy', which I suppose could be 'Magic-by-Numbers' or some other lesson that fills in for Mathematics.

The battle against Voldemort is a battle against a guy who refuses to admit that Magic's time has long gone.

[mause]

In conclusion:
Maybe if Vodlemort and his minions had an Elementary education they could have stood a chance against kids.


Good gods a superpowerful evil wizard could stan a chance against of teenagers if he goes to elementary school?

maybe not

There are a seriously lack of childs in the Potter world but who could imagine that are actions/characters not related to Harry?

It's nonsense

[CrazedGoblin]

so if they were educated in england to an 11 year olds standard, most wouldnt beable to read i take it :smallwink:

[warty goblin]

There is vast gulf between "fantasy" and "illogical".
OP brings up fairly interesting point. I guess little wizards are taught basic skills such as writing/reading and maths by their parents, but aside from that, I don't know.

I prefer the term "wizlets", or for polite company, "wizardlets".

[Dihan]

Maybe all the subjects that we do in school - like maths, english and science - are all lumped together in "Muggle Studies".

[Cubey]

That's a very good point you have there OP. I noticed the same thing in Naruto, where they only learn ninja-related stuff in their school. Of course, Naruto takes part in a fully fictional world (with computers but no guns!) so it's less grating.

As a side note, I wonder when will the "omg things schul teachs iz useless!1!!" believers will strike.

[Darken Rahl]

It'd be rough if they had to take the time to learn instead of, I dunno, pointing the wand at their head and saying a latin-rooted word and VIOLA, having the knowledge. Kinda like magic, eh?

[Greebo]

I think the word you want in the topic is "ignorant", not "stupid".

Ignorant means the person lacks education. Ignorance can be cured.
Stupidity means the person lacks the ability to think clearly or effectively.

Stupidity is for life.

[SurlySeraph]

Maybe they get some chemistry and biology in Potions class. Maybe some physics in Transmutation, since they're magically rearranging the structure of the target of their spell on a subatomic level. Not to kill catgirls, but they have to learn some basic physical principles to understand how their magic works, assuming magic obeys any laws of physics.

[Cubey]

they have to learn some basic physical principles to understand how their magic works, assuming magic obeys any laws of physics.

That's a pretty big assumption there.

[Wraithy]

Many great discoveries have been mad in history
edited, but no less true.

Of course wizards are stupid, they give their money to Goblins for safe keeping.
just think of it this way: The wizarding world is what today would be like if the Nazis had won WWII (NO, not a magical world of wonder :smallfurious: ).
Treating other people as inferior, rampant inbreeding, silly clothing, ranking civil servants having to hide their sexuality.
This work of children's fiction doesn't seem so fun now! well?!? DOES IT?!?!!?

for those who haven't realised I'm just being silly:smallredface:

[Hazkali]

This has been on-and-off in my mind for several years now. I've come to the conclusion that there must be some sort of wizarding Dame schools, or primary schools, or similar, which teach literacy and numeracy to the average 11-year-old level. Thereafter, at Hogwarts or wherever, further literacy and numerical methods are taught and learned on an "as you need them" basis.

Hence as so many of the lessons require good essay-writing skills, through reading other essays, pointers from the teachers and so on, the students are able to pick up enough "working knowledge" to write a good essay (structurally and grammatically speaking) without ever having a formal introduction to the writing of good essays. 1

As for the "real world" science, I presume it isn't needed as magic obviously works on different fundamental principles, which I presume they are taught instead (an example on transfiguration was mentioned in book 7), in the same way we teach Newton's fundamental laws at the appropriate level.

Or, y'know, it's all maaaagicallll.....

1Whether this is canon or not is irrelevant. It will be this way in my mind until JK releases her HP Encyclopaedia.

[Darken Rahl]

They never really mention younger schooling, simply that Hogwarts was the big place to learn. Almost like High School. I remember kids always wanting to get to HS and then they came from many many smaller schools and formed one large HS class.

Maybe it simply wasn't mentioned?

[Lord Zentei]

Yeah because people casting spells is logical.

That is not what logic means.

Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves: logic is the means of deducing conclusions from postulates that are held to be true (within the context under discussion). It is not the same thing as "realistic".

[Ditto]

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-hogwarts-education.html

Would you want this for your kid? Probably not. But your kid would be fine with it if he got magic. You don't need O-Chem and Calculus in the wizarding world. Education for wizards and Muggles is apples and oranges. Take your pick, but I wouldn't judge the Hogwarts crew until you get a turn with a wand.

[Rowanomicon]

Well I'm glad the realism vs logic thing got cleared up.

I am also quite aware of the definitions of ignorance and stupidity. I chose the word stupid because...well, I don't now why. I just did, sue me.

It's all well and good to fill in the blanks with what would work, but the fact remains that the author did not mention it. From what the author tells us there is no schooling for wizards before the age of 11 and there are no courses taught at Hogwarts that cover many areas of learning. Of course you are free to imagine the world however you like; that's the fun of fantasy.

Saying that they get an education in something because they have a class that's vaguely similar does not sit well with me. Yes, there is some overlap, but that's like saying that by sky-diving I earn a physics degree.

Ditto, I was waiting for you to join this thread. I know you are a big HP fan and I do not seek to depreciate Rowling's works.
That "essay" you linked to was somewhat interesting. However, it's mostly assumption and over-stating the overlap of certain courses.
There is no evidence to suggest that Hogwarts provides any education in astrophysics.
Also I'm not sure what you mean about not judging HP wizards. Obviously I will never wield a magic wand as they do, does this mean I cannot have an opinion about the characters in those books? Does this mean I cannot look at the books form a logic stand-point and deduce what the characters and their lives are like?

How do you make a spell giving you muggle information if you don't even know what type of muggle information you want?

[Fiery Justice]

Home Schooling? I'm thinking homeschooling.

[Rutee]

I found it a bit (REad: Very) weird that there aren't even classes in economics, unless banking, investment, and everything that applies is the sole province of Goblins (Which I find more then a little unlikely), nor global (wizarding) politics. No psychology either. Legal studies? Who're their lawyers? I mean, they have a court system..

I mean, yes, they know magic, but that can only stand in for so much. Maybe they just go to Muggles when they need to get their heads shrunk? I dunno, I mean, it /would/ make sense. There are fewer magic-capable kids then there are muggles too, so to some extent, it makes sense, but there's still jobs that you would seem to need, regardless of whether you have an arcane or technological society, that I find it vereh odd.

[Dhavaer]

How do you make a spell giving you muggle information if you don't even know what type of muggle information you want?

You can't. Information is something magic cannot create, along with food, love and life.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Interestingly, i find that the HP world seems very segregated, it seems like everything Muggle is looked down upon, even things like food, why would you want Coke when you can have pumpkin juice? This complete disregard for all things muggle seems like a definant disadvantage.

[Tyrant]

Would you want this for your kid? Probably not. But your kid would be fine with it if he got magic. You don't need O-Chem and Calculus in the wizarding world. Education for wizards and Muggles is apples and oranges. Take your pick, but I wouldn't judge the Hogwarts crew until you get a turn with a wand.

I am pretty sure if I had the ability to animate objects or make things appear out of thin air, I would want to know what all I could make and what I could do with it. Say for instance, I was staring down an armored giant and I was seeking some means to bypass his armor. Knowing that things such as saw blades exist and how they actually work could come in handy. Knowing that something like acid exists and that it melts metal would probably be at least somewhat useful. Or knowing that iron is magnetic. Etc. Etc. You can have all the power in the world and the ability to break the laws of physics on a whim, but without a true understanding of the world you are manipulating your power has limits.

I suppose a proper comparison can be found amongst the XMen. New students/mutants usually can't properly control their powers and they definitely can't harness them to their full potential. Those who have been toying with their powers, and learning all Xavier has to teach, are considerably more powerful and effective. Like Iceman knowing exactly what cold does to objects and how to manipulate it. Or Storm understanding weather patterns and the effects of severe weather on certain types of terrain and materials. It's the difference between just letting loose fiendfyre and knowing it would be better to target a gas line/gas station. If you've never heard of explosive gas, the guy who has probably has an edge.

[Mr._Blinky]

Yeah, I figured this one out a loooong time ago, and it still seems like kind of a dumb oversight to me. On the other hand, it's pretty clear why all the banking is done by goblins: WIZARDS CAN'T DO ACCOUNTING.

Seriously, I'm surprised that they can all even speak English so well...

[StickMan]

Why don't Wizards rule the world?

Simple, really; they're a throwback. Magic is a stagnant, dead force in the world, and has long been supplanted by Science. The Wizards merely keep it going, like Ancient History students. So, naturally, magical studies are a little degenerate and archaic.

Right because Science has been turning things invisible, and transmuting matter for years now. I happen to own a Dirt Devil that I fly around on, Brooms are for primitive wizards. Between magic and technology I'll take magic.

Over all I don't see the point of this thread plenty of people are home schooled and it does not hurt them. Its a perfectly fine way to be educated honestly you don't need to go to a school if you have parents willing to put the time in to giving you an education at home.

[Winterwind]

Even if that is true (which I won't discuss due to forum rules), the point still stands that once the children join Howarts they are not homeschooled any longer and learn only the stuff they are teached in the Wizardry school - and that doesn't seem to contain all that much of the knowledge we learn at school.

I think it shows, however. Ron and, to a lesser degree, Harry, do not seem all that knowledgeable to me, often even about stuff I think a kid their age might know (even though I can't cite any particular examples right now). However, in their world, they don't need it. Since magic violates the laws of nature (thermodynamics and energy conservation, for example) learning physics wouldn't do them any good - in fact, they would be learning stuff that is wrong in their world. Magic History could just as well be labeled History, except it limits its scope - but Wizards try to not mix with Muggles anyway. They do indeed lack in art and other creative stuff, but then, maybe transmutation and spells, and the applications thereof kinda qualify? They don't learn anything about Muggle art and culture (unless they visit the course devoted to that specifically), but they probably learn enough about Wizard art (some permanent, particularly magnificent Charm maybe?) and culture, which is all they really require.

So, I would say, yes, they would be more ignorant than us if they were forced to live in the Muggle world and abide to the same laws of nature as Muggles. The same could be said about us, however, if we were forced to live in the Wizard world. Note how often Harry doesn't know stuff everyone else takes for granted in the first few books. Granted, that's often stuff learned as part of a hobby, tales or simply everyday life, but still - by Wizard standards, it's Harry who's uneducated and ignorant. And that's what would happen with any Muggle in the Wizard world.

[Rutee]

Over all I don't see the point of this thread plenty of people are home schooled and it does not hurt them. Its a perfectly fine way to be educated honestly you don't need to go to a school if you have parents willing to put the time in to giving you an education at home.
Home schooled is one thing.

Education that stops at elementary school is not.


I think it shows, however. Ron and, to a lesser degree, Harry, do not seem all that knowledgeable to me, often even about stuff I think a kid their age might know (even though I can't cite any particular examples right now). However, in their world, they don't need it. Since magic violates the laws of nature (thermodynamics and energy conservation, for example) learning physics wouldn't do them any good - in fact, they would be learning stuff that is wrong in their world. Magic History could just as well be labeled History, except it limits its scope - but Wizards try to not mix with Muggles anyway. They do indeed lack in art and other creative stuff, but then, maybe transmutation and spells, and the applications thereof kinda qualify? They don't learn anything about Muggle art and culture (unless they visit the course devoted to that specifically), but they probably learn enough about Wizard art (some permanent, particularly magnificent Charm maybe?) and culture, which is all they really require.
Not learning Muggle History strikes me as the SINGLE most ignorant thing they do, actually.

One who does not know history is doomed to repeat it. Personally, I would be GLAD for the opportunity to learn from someone /else's/ idiocy, rather then be forced to live it out before I learn the lesson.

Hell, you can argue that better knowledge of global civil rights movements, and WWII, would have helped keep Blood Supremacy down. At the least, it would hopefully not pass on to the children as well as it did.


Right because Science has been turning things invisible, and transmuting matter for years now. I happen to own a Dirt Devil that I fly around on, Brooms are for primitive wizards. Between magic and technology I'll take magic.
It'd be pretty easy to argue that Science grows so much faster then Magic that given time, it would surpass Magic in quite literally every respect. About the only thing Magic truly has on Science in the HP-verse is that it has significantly better, if more painful, healing..


http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/ess...education.html

Would you want this for your kid? Probably not. But your kid would be fine with it if he got magic. You don't need O-Chem and Calculus in the wizarding world. Education for wizards and Muggles is apples and oranges. Take your pick, but I wouldn't judge the Hogwarts crew until you get a turn with a wand.
To be perfectly frank, your link is bunk. I'm not saying you're lying, but the guy is flatly wrong. I'm sorry, but there'd be a test on that material given screen time at SOME point if it were true. Wizards learn nothing but magic, and it's pretty clear that what little outside education they do get is what gives Harry/Hermione such a leg up.

[Winterwind]

Not learning Muggle History strikes me as the SINGLE most ignorant thing they do, actually.

One who does not know history is doomed to repeat it. Personally, I would be GLAD for the opportunity to learn from someone /else's/ idiocy, rather then be forced to live it out before I learn the lesson.

Hell, you can argue that better knowledge of global civil rights movements, and WWII, would have helped keep Blood Supremacy down. At the least, it would hopefully not pass on to the children as well as it did.Perfectly true, and not learning Muggle History is indeed the point where I doubted my own argument the most. There really is no excuse for that - they already do have History lessons, it's just that they limit the scope thereof. Which is bad. Really really bad.
I can only assume that whoever came up with the curriculum felt the Muggle world was too different from the Wizard world to offer valuable insight. Which is nonsense, obviously, but we know that even in the Ministry of Magic wizard supremacy is not exactly a concept that's unheard of.

[Ditto]

Harry has a leg up in his education? He's not particularly bright, you know...

There's no such thing as wizard college, so a strong liberal arts base isn't needed. Who needs theoretical physics? For things like accounting or such, there's a heavy emphasis placed in on-site training.

Most of the essays on the Lexicon are short and fluffy, but some of them are really strong. I knew there were a few that dealt with education, so I thought I'd throw that one up there. Speaking of things you wouldn't want for your children: Hogwarts food. If you think about it, it's the richest, unhealthiest food you can stuff yourself with and they do it nonstop... wizards bounce, and apparently they have supermetabolisms, too!

[Sebastian Bux]

Well, this thread has pointed out something very important to me ... I must have completely surrendered to my suspension of disbelief to have never really thought about this before. And now that someone brings it up ... it is a very good question (though Ignorant IS the correct term for this discussion, not stupitidy).

Okay, I'm trying to think about why I've ignored this interesting fact for so long. Here's what we do know from the books:

Ron shows up to school with the ability to read and write, ergo he learned it SOMEHOW. It would stand to reason that he was taught these things as opposed to picking them up himself. If someone taught him then the real question is who? Thanks one to send to J.K. because I'd like to know.

Okay, so they are taught "something" growing up (wizards born to wizard or half wizard families). Can we then assume that Herm went to grade school? She never mentioned it, but I'm sure she did.

In the end, the question for me then becomes: Do they NEED to have what we consider a formal education in order to live successful lives?

I say no. I believe the training they receive is all they require to live the lives they do. Mostly because the books almost completely ignore Muggle/Wizzard interaction. Which says to me that Wizards live between the cracks of Muggle society so well and so completely that until something like Voldemort spills over into the Muggle world, they don't really know Wizards are around.

I think that I would not last two seconds in the Wizarding world if I entered it today (I'm 33) and visa versa. Mostly this is due to my lack of education in Wizardingness and their lack of Muggleness. But really we have a lack of data.

What were Wizards doing during World War II, for example? How did that war impact their lives? If we had the answer to that kind of question from the books I think it would make answering this topic more accurate in it's speculation :)

What I want to know is ... do the Weasley's pay Taxes? To whom? Does Mr. Weasley have an automobile license? So the Potters just lived in the middle of a street of a Muggle town and because of the secret keeper no Muggle could ever find the house? Is that true with every Wizard House?


This is about the time where you go .. you know what .. I like the books .. who cares. And apparently Dumbledore is Gay, if you haven't heard. I say whatever to that too!

[Semidi]

I would think that because it's a children's book these things are just ignored on purpose. JK's creating a fictional sociaty that children can look at and envy, because instead of learning T(double) = Log2/log(1+p/100) they can learn things like turning a cat into a pumpkin. One is boring, the other is cooool.

Though that's irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, I would say Harry Potter wizards are stupid, not ignorant, stupid. Stupid is having the information available to you and ignoring it because of a prejudice against muggle technology. Stupid is not even bothering to learn how nuclear bombs work, something that could destroy their little culture before one could shout bibity-bobity-boo.

[Winterwind]

Though that's irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, I would say Harry Potter wizards are stupid, not ignorant, stupid. Stupid is having the information available to you and ignoring it because of a prejudice against muggle technology. Stupid is not even bothering to learn how nuclear bombs work, something that could destroy their little culture before one could shout bibity-bobity-boo.While I generally agree with your notion here, one should add in all fairness that the presence of magic screws up technology. In the vicinity of Hogwarts, for instance, all technology simply fails, or so it was stated somewhere in the books.

[Semidi]

While I generally agree with your notion here, one should add in all fairness that the presence of magic screws up technology. In the vicinity of Hogwarts, for instance, all technology simply fails, or so it was stated somewhere in the books.

I don't have a copy, nor do I have the effort to read through it right now, but I believe that it's a ward put in place at Hogwarts which makes electronics go awry. I don’t think magic did it by nature of its design.

…Which is a nice excuse to ignore all technological advances in the last 100years.

Even if magic did make technology go funky, many firearms would still work. For instance, a revolver is simple physics using the same forces that work in the shutting of a door and the lighting of a fire with flint.

[Winterwind]

Magic screwing up technology doesn't really make sense from a purely scientific point of view anyway. Because what you say about the revolver (and which is perfectly true) actually is true for any technology - they all operate by the very same laws of nature which also allow human beings and existance in general to work.

I assume therefore this "screws up technology" must actually use some very specific definition of technology, like maybe "any tool created by Muggles", or something along that lines.

Whether it was a spell or magic in general, I have no idea. It's been too long; I'm not even sure which book that was (though I believe it might have been the third one). The highly selective nature of that thing would indicate a spell, however.

[WalkingTarget]

Whether it was a spell or magic in general, I have no idea. It's been too long; I'm not even sure which book that was (though I believe it might have been the third one). The highly selective nature of that thing would indicate a spell, however.

Having trouble finding the passage quickly, but I believe it was book 4 when they were discussing how the reporter could have overheard some of the things she reported (Hermione explaining why there couldn't be a hidden microphone or something).

[Rutee]

Idly, the solution Arcanum takes is that the laws of physics themselves are warped around *all* magic. Any spell, period, bends physics, which would in fact prevent technology from working. And it's fairly consistent, to boot. High-Magic cultures have very few moving parts (Up to and including doors.. IIRC the Elves use elegant cloth openings, or it's just been too long) in anything, entirely because they knew their magic would muck up complex things. It explicitly handwaved living things as being immune to this (So no critical existance failure because your heart can't beat blood to the rest of the body, or your bones suddenly crumbling because they can't support the body's weight.

On the reverse side, complicated tech warps magic, because there's too much dependent on the laws of physics present for the magic to really work. One of the early game quests involves a hedge wizard who's having his powers interfered with simply because there's a steam engine in town, and he asks you to get rid of it so he can act on his magic again. There's no evidence that the reverse happens in HP, so that was just a bit of geeking out..


I assume therefore this "screws up technology" must actually use some very specific definition of technology, like maybe "any tool created by Muggles", or something along that lines.

IT'd have to, though it can't be that (Wands are man-made; so are, again, glasses.). Honestly, I can't imagine what it'd be.. you even pointed out something I forgot; No technological device works on principles different then our bodies do...

[Darth Mario]

JK's creating a fictional sociaty that children can look at and envy, because instead of learning T(double) = Log2/log(1+p/100) they can learn things like turning a cat into a pumpkin. One is boring, the other is cooool.

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/Images/inurhalloween.jpg

OK, done now.

[Winterwind]

Having trouble finding the passage quickly, but I believe it was book 4 when they were discussing how the reporter could have overheard some of the things she reported (Hermione explaining why there couldn't be a hidden microphone or something).Yeah, this sounds about right.


Idly, the solution Arcanum takes is that the laws of physics themselves are warped around *all* magic.*snip*The more I hear about Arcanum, the more I am intrigued.
Too bad that with 6 (if I haven't forgotten any) simultaneous campaigns in 5 different systems my players have little desire to pick up yet another system. :smallfrown:


IT'd have to, though it can't be that (Wands are man-made; so are, again, glasses.). Honestly, I can't imagine what it'd be.. you even pointed out something I forgot; No technological device works on principles different then our bodies do...That's why I wrote "created by Muggles", instead of "created by Man", although this still wouldn't explain Harry's glasses.
...huh. Must be one hell of an intricate formulation. :smallbiggrin:

[Tyrant]

While I generally agree with your notion here, one should add in all fairness that the presence of magic screws up technology. In the vicinity of Hogwarts, for instance, all technology simply fails, or so it was stated somewhere in the books.
I know what you're saying, but in the particular case mentioned, unless that anti tech field went for several miles in all directions (including up and down to an extent) it won't do jack against a nuclear warhead. If the enemy (wizards) have an anti tech field a mile wide, hit just beyond it with a 10 megaton, or more, nuclear warhead. Unless those same spells also completely suspend the laws of physics, they will suffer tremendous damage if not all out destruction. I am assuming there are spells which buff up the structure itself and that they could possibly weather the intense heat and the shockwave. Anyone outside is dead before they can blink. Anyone who isn't magically shielded is dead. If the castle isn't somehow shielded against actual damage of that kind, it is a pile of scattered rocks. If they use a missile and use a low flight path, they could take them completely by suprise.

[Winterwind]

That's true. And I find the idea that some old charm could stop a nuclear blast a bit too straining my suspension of disbelief to assume that might happen.

I guess the Wizards rely completely on the Muggles not knowing about their existance (which worked rather well for the past thousands of years). Which they can maintain rather well with their oblivion spells. Before Hogwarts is endangered by a nuke it would take a general first who remembers for a long enough time to launch the nuke what exactly it is he was going to blow up.
The problem is, that would still make knowledge about Muggles useful, in order to avoid detection by things that don't forget as easily, like cameras and computers. But for that, there probably are specialists...

[Rutee]

The more I hear about Arcanum, the more I am intrigued.
Too bad that with 6 (if I haven't forgotten any) simultaneous campaigns in 5 different systems my players have little desire to pick up yet another system.
Is there an Arcanum Tabletop RPG I'm unaware of? Because if there is, whoever made it is a really nice person. IT's a Computer RPG, pretty old. Made by Sierra games, which is now defunct.. definitely worth a try if you have the time, but it dun sound like you do.

[Winterwind]

Is there an Arcanum Tabletop RPG I'm unaware of? Because if there is, whoever made it is a really nice person. IT's a Computer RPG, pretty old. Made by Sierra games, which is now defunct.. definitely worth a try if you have the time, but it dun sound like you do.There is, although I know nothing about it except that it exists and that it supposedly has one of the best magic systems around.
Hmm... a quick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura) Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum_%28role-playing_game%29) search seems to indicate, though, that the Arcanum computer RPG you speak of and the tabletop game are not related. Oh well. Nevermind then.

The computer game sounds interesting as well... there's a lot of things I want to do, but if there's an occasion, I might check it out. :smallsmile:

[Wizzardman]

It'd be rough if they had to take the time to learn instead of, I dunno, pointing the wand at their head and saying a latin-rooted word and VIOLA, having the knowledge. Kinda like magic, eh?

.....Viola?

...VIOLA?

...Are you a wizard? :smalleek:

(I think the word you're looking for is voila. Viola is a musical instrument.)

Also, I don't think wizards have an instant knowledge spell--if they did, they wouldn't go to school, now would they. It would be awesome if they had such a spell--let's call it "Wikipediate"--but they do not.

[Darth Mario]

.....Viola?

...VIOLA?

...Are you a wizard? :smalleek:

Hey, did you hear the one about the Batman Wizard and the Violist? The violist frees the wizard from some extradimentional prison and grants the Violist one wish.

"Ok," he says, and thinks for a moment. "How about peace on Earth?"

"Er," says the wizard, pulling out a map. "You know, with the Middle East, Northern Ireland, Darfur, Somalia, and everywhere inbetween... I don't think I can handle it. Anything else?"

"Ok," says the violist. "How about making me play in tune."

"Er," says the wizard. "Let me see that map again."

[Em Blackleaf]

They're magic and also fake.
They don't need regular education.
At a school of witchcraft and wizardry, they learn all they would need to know in the wizarding community.

And they only don't pay attention in history because the professor puts them to sleep with long, boring speeches.
I don't blame them! :smalltongue:

If I was Harry Potter, I'd rather learn how to defend myself with charms and curses instead of how to do the Pythagorean Theorem.

[Rowanomicon]

Well wizard school used to be just kids lined up with the 4 house head casting "wikipediate" at them one by one.

This didn't work out too well though as half the children knew everything and the other half died of old age on the spot by having all their time sucked away from them.

That is why wizards now take classes for their education.

I definitely agree that the HP books require a large amount suspended disbelief. Rowling definitely could have put more thought into her world.

Unfortunately my suspended disbelief of the HP world has been shattered by the Sauron vs Voldemort thread. *sigh* I don't know if I'll even bother reading the rest of the 7th book when I get my hand on it.

Anyway, if I had (HP) wizard powers (and my current mind) I would probably be the most powerful wizard in the (HP) world, simply because of my ability to think. This isn't just me be arrogant; I think the average forumite here would be just as good, and the really dedicated power-gamers would destroy the (HP) world within 10 minutes if they wanted.

EDIT: I would say the biggest thing they're missing is logic. 1+1=3 don't you know.

[WalkingTarget]

Rowling definitely could have put more thought into her world.

I think the biggest problem there is that she wrote them over a period of 10 years for an audience that grew up considerably in that time. The early books especially felt (to me at least) like she was just tossing stuff in to show how different wizarding was from normal life ("Hey kids, don't you want pumpkin juice and nifty robes too?") and ended up painting herself into a corner somewhat on occasion. The thing that gets me is why they use parchment and quills. Paper isn't exactly a new invention and isn't made from animal skin and steel dip pens have been around for about 200 years now (and the mechanism the pens work by is the same as a quill, so other than easy access to molted owl feathers, I don't see the point there either).


EDIT: I would say the biggest thing they're missing is logic. 1+1=3 don't you know.

... for sufficiently large values of 1 [/mathnerd]

[kpenguin]

EDIT: I would say the biggest thing they're missing is logic. 1+1=3 don't you know.

Well... yeah. Hermione straight out says that most wizards don't bother with logic and reasoning in the first book when they're facing Snape's challenge.

Anyway, I've long become disillusioned with the HP world and how illogical it is. Especially how very powerful magic, like time-travel, is easily given to school children.

[Ichneumon]

I'm so happy I left the Happy Potter stage of my life untainted....

[Trazoi]

I've been making jokes about the lack of breadth of education at Hogwarts since book 1. Although it does explain why the wizard's civil service sucks so much.

The Harry Potter universe is a decent vehicle for drama and characterisation, but it falls apart pretty quickly when you examine it in any detail. Take Quiddich for example; there's no way a sport like that could be popular without some serious rule changes.

And I'm not sure why first year wizards don't just find out how to make a memory enhancing potion (there's bound to be a formula for one somewhere), speed yourself up magically and memorise the entire contents of the library. Then you could take over the wizarding world if you are ambitious, or just spend the next seven years goofing off if you're not.

[Rutee]

I think the biggest problem there is that she wrote them over a period of 10 years for an audience that grew up considerably in that time. The early books especially felt (to me at least) like she was just tossing stuff in to show how different wizarding was from normal life ("Hey kids, don't you want pumpkin juice and nifty robes too?") and ended up painting herself into a corner somewhat on occasion. The thing that gets me is why they use parchment and quills. Paper isn't exactly a new invention and isn't made from animal skin and steel dip pens have been around for about 200 years now (and the mechanism the pens work by is the same as a quill, so other than easy access to molted owl feathers, I don't see the point there either).
That... is a very good reason for that to happen. And it makes sense. And I suppose she didn't try to retcon things later to draw as few people's attention to it as possible.

On that note, I /do/ want robes. Flowy things have a higher coolness quotient, in general, and keeping clothes unwrinkled is easier then taking care of absurdly long hair :P


There is, although I know nothing about it except that it exists and that it supposedly has one of the best magic systems around.
Hmm... a quick Wikipedia search seems to indicate, though, that the Arcanum computer RPG you speak of and the tabletop game are not related. Oh well. Nevermind then.

Well, you might want to just read the Arcanum book. I'm afraid I've not heard of it, but you'll learn about it fastest that way, unless it's crazy difficult to read, in which case it may be better to skip anyway :P

You sound a bit busy, so the PC game prolly isn't worth the time. I mean, it's a vereh fun game, but.. it's on a time scale best compared to with Morrowind or Baldur's Gate..

I guess though, that Rowling is very much relying on people not examining it too closely (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.BellisariosMaxim) and The MST3k Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra). And there's nothing really wrong with that. I don't think I would be looking too hard at education if I w- wait, I'm lying. I'm running a game of Dragonblooded students at the Heptragram, so.. one could say it's Exalted Harry Potter (They'd be wrong, but they could say it XD). And I spent far too long coming up with self consistent stuffs where they didn't exist. But they usually did, so hm >.>

[Dhavaer]

You sound a bit busy, so the PC game prolly isn't worth the time. I mean, it's a vereh fun game, but.. it's on a time scale best compared to with Morrowind or Baldur's Gate..

It's not that long. A powerful character (i.e. a mage, temporal warrior-mages in particular) can go through the game in just a few hours.

[Kaelaroth]

During the time you Troglanders call Elementary School, I reckon most wizard kids are having the kind of lessons young children in very small British hamlets/thorps used to have. Everyone in the area's little children congregate at one wizard/witch's house where they play and lear basic things, i.e. FIRE = BAD!

As for secondary education Rowling seems not to explain it. Hermione seems to be reasonably clue up about everything, but that is most likely because she researches in her own time (as I do). Muggle-born kids are going to pre-naturally clued up, due to their connections with the normal world, where they probably learn basic stuff - but pure-blood wizard kids who look down on the more "common" lessons, such as Muggle Studies or Arithmancy may never ever learn the ittie-bittiest bit of normal secondary curriculum standard required learning.

[Winterwind]

Well, you might want to just read the Arcanum book. I'm afraid I've not heard of it, but you'll learn about it fastest that way, unless it's crazy difficult to read, in which case it may be better to skip anyway :PI would, except given the large number of campaigns we already play I doubt I could get my players to give the system a try, and since I most definitely would want to play it after having read the book, this would only end in me suffering. So, maybe better not. :smallbiggrin:


You sound a bit busy, so the PC game prolly isn't worth the time. I mean, it's a vereh fun game, but.. it's on a time scale best compared to with Morrowind or Baldur's Gate..Nah, not that busy, not at the moment at least.


I guess though, that Rowling is very much relying on people not examining it too closely (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.BellisariosMaxim) and The MST3k Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra). And there's nothing really wrong with that. Indeed. I think sometimes a bit more fun and atmosphere is worth turning one's view away from the more glaring flaws in a world. Sometimes, it's not. That's for everyone to decide personally. In the case of Harry Potter? I think it's worth it.

[Hazkali]

During the time you Troglanders call Elementary School, I reckon most wizard kids are having the kind of lessons young children in very small British hamlets/thorps used to have. Everyone in the area's little children congregate at one wizard/witch's house where they play and lear basic things, i.e. FIRE = BAD!


Exactly how I've always imagined it.

Another thought on the subject is that the students might get appropriate homework outside of lessons in order to bring them up to a certain level of literacy and numeracy in order for them to participate in their lessons. This could be inferred from the large amount of homework they always seem to have.

[Moff Chumley]

Good point. I'd never thought about that before. But on the subject of wizards=stupid, This is the most logical course of action in Goblet of Fire: Accio Egg! Accio Ron! Accio Trophy!

[Vuzzmop]

Good point. I'd never thought about that before. But on the subject of wizards=stupid, This is what I would've doon in the Goblet of Fire: Acio Golden Egg! Acio Ron! Acio Trophy!

Of course all of that can be explained away with "the prizes were protected from magical charms".

[Rowanomicon]

Well yes there is always the MST3K mantra, but if it's meant to be serious (like HP) I'd like it to be at least almost somewhat kinda thought out.
MST3K is a very different type of entertainment than Harry Potter, one where you don't need to suspend your disbelief because you don't need to believe, just hear the jokes. Harry Potter books, however, are meant to bring you into the world the wizards live in. Sure magic is one level of impossibility, but when a world blatantly cannot exist even within itself and there isn't even really any noticeable attempt to try to make it do so then I don't have any cables strong enough to suspend that disbelief.

Also things like time travel are completely ridiculous in the context on Harry Potter. Why were they fighting Voldemort again? Why didn't they just use the time travel thing and defeat Voldemort at their leisure? Also, you're telling me that hermione was never tempted to use her time travel for anything except studies? Pfft!

[Dhavaer]

Why didn't they just use the time travel thing and defeat Voldemort at their leisure?

Because all the Time Turners were blown up in book 5.

[Illiterate Scribe]

On the reverse side, complicated tech warps magic, because there's too much dependent on the laws of physics present for the magic to really work. One of the early game quests involves a hedge wizard who's having his powers interfered with simply because there's a steam engine in town, and he asks you to get rid of it so he can act on his magic again. There's no evidence that the reverse happens in HP, so that was just a bit of geeking out..

Personally, I believe that a suit made of iPods would protect you from magic.

Another area the wizarding world is backwards is in its system of government - it's a fairly weak dictatorship by the Minister of Magic. Even suspending disbelief that the whole thing wasn't overthrown by well-organised, say, communist groups 80 years ago, such an oppressive state (no independent judiciary, Minister can rule by fiat, use of torture in Azkaban) would be ripe for regime change ...

... you know, I think the forum rules on politics forbid me from saying more :smallredface: .

[warty goblin]

Because all the Time Turners were blown up in book 5.

Then they just should have made more- I got the impression that Timeturners were valuable and rare, but hardly unique and un-recreatable. The fact that they gave one to a thirteen year old is proof of this IMHO.

[Tirian]

Then they just should have made more- I got the impression that Timeturners were valuable and rare, but hardly unique and un-recreatable. The fact that they gave one to a thirteen year old is proof of this IMHO.

"They" gave one to Dumbledore; they may well have not realized at the time that he entrusted it to a thirteen year-old.

[warty goblin]

"They" gave one to Dumbledore; they may well have not realized at the time that he entrusted it to a thirteen year-old.

Hmm, I remember that it was McGonegal (sp) who they actually gave it to, Dumbledore just knew about it. Of course its been a long time since I read book three, so I could quite easily be wrong.

[kpenguin]

If it was Albus who gave Hermione the time turner, I could understand. With all due respect to the fictional dead, the man was as more loony than Luna Lovegood.

McGonagal, however, is portrayed as being more level-headed and more traditional. If she was the one who gave Hermione the time turner, it means that the wizarding community considers time-travel to be a tool of low enough power to give to thirteen-year old girls.

Yeah, logic and reason, not present among wizards.

[Tirian]

They didn't actually show the scene in which the teachers deliberated giving the time-turner to Hermione, but I think that as kpenguin points out, it is entirely in keeping with Dumbledore's idealistic faith in his advanced students and not at all in keeping with McGonagal's character, so it is an easy to presume that the core decision was his and she was left with the upkeep.

It is a shame that Harry has to be in every scene that JKR wrote, because this would have been a great scene for Minerva and Hermione. "Misuse of this artifact will undoubtedly cause you to go mad, Ms. Granger. MAD!!"

[Ishmael]

You know, it's easy to accept the fact that the wizards get basic education before they reach Hogwarts. Yeah, I know, the understand how to read and write, and well enough to presumably do essays and the like.

But, beyond the scope of elementary education, how does the society function? I mean, most of the things that society relies upon is based upon the advanced knowledge of practical concepts. Diagon Alley, for instance. With a society lacking engineers, or any knowledge of physics, how can they build houses, or even more complex structures? Or did they outsource the construction to muggles, and then modify their memories? Or their economy? Umm...the gold market is already fairly unstable as a currency backer in the real world. When one can transmute things, however, it would completely be useless.

I have yet to understand how they can function as a nation, in loose terms, without the presence of any political theory. Political science seems to be completely absent from their education. No wonder their leaders all suck.

I agree we are taking it too seriously, here, and at the heart of things the world of Harry Potter is supposed to be one fantastical, one written as a children's story. But, god damn it, look at Tolkien, Peake, or even Bakker! How is it that they can create fleshed out, cohesive worlds, and still be fantasy authors?

Of course, nobody accused Rowlings of being another Mervyn Peake (for one, she is healthy, rich, and well-known). Her works are popular fiction rather than something meaningful and, although she tried to make them more dark later on, she was mired in a pit of her own creation. The most popular authors are never the best ones, alas.

[thubby]

how much science does a world of wizards need? why memorize formula for chemicals when you can poof them into existence? history is covered, it's not their fault the kids don't listen. math, see science. social anything is covered by being surrounded by people.
i think most of them (especially harry) are completely inept however. there is this huge gaping hole between hogwarts senior and functional wizard, even on a practical level. during any 1 movie they use maybe 3 different spells (Hermione is an exception)
then again, why not just teach them to create spells, many of the stronger wizards have, and most of the incantations seem formulaic.

[kpenguin]

then again, why not just teach them to create spells, many of the stronger wizards have, and most of the incantations seem formulaic.

They appear to only teach spells, not magical theory.

And yes, magical theory probably does exist in the Potterverse. Otherwise spells and magical items would be created mostly by chance.

[Dhavaer]

They appear to only teach spells, not magical theory.

And yes, magical theory probably does exist in the Potterverse. Otherwise spells and magical items would be created mostly by chance.

They must teach some theory, or what do they put in the essays?

[Rutee]

Because all the Time Turners were blown up in book 5.
Wait, I read that book. When did that happen? I don't think I have it on me, but I might..


how much science does a world of wizards need? why memorize formula for chemicals when you can poof them into existence? history is covered, it's not their fault the kids don't listen. math, see science. social anything is covered by being surrounded by people.
Um, please read posts. Interacting with people, when you have no education in how to analyze those interactions, makes you no more educated about Social Sciences then buying things makes you a Marketing Student. Otherwise nobody in the *Real* world would have to study social sciences, because we'd have figured it all out on our own within a generation or two of life on the planet. Further, they only teach Magical History; While it's true that they don't interact meaningfully with muggles, learning muggle history is still exceptionally important, because put bluntly, It's a way to learn from other people's screw-ups. There is no magicking your way out of "The following atrocities were done in the name of country/race supremacy/religion, especially not when Race Supremacy is a very real issue to wizards (Not only do they foolishly consider themselves superior to muggles.. there's also the mudblood thing)

And that's another thing they don't teach; Marketing! Word of mouth alone is a fine way for the already established firms to get on out there, but how do newer business make themselves known? They /can't/ be so stagnant as to have had the same businesses, and /only/ those businesses, for the last 1000 years!

[Dhavaer]

Wait, I read that book. When did that happen? I don't think I have it on me, but I might..

Page 696 in the Bloomsbury edition.


The jet of red light flew right over the Death Eater's shoulder and hit a glass-fronted cabinet on the wall full of variously shaped hour-glasses; the cabinet fell to the floor and burst apart, glass flying everywhere, sprang back up on to the wall, full mended, then fell down again, and shattered-

[Rutee]

Sounds like the Ministry of Magic fight..

Is that every single Time Turner in the HP-verse, or even just Britain? I mean, I could believe they got the MoM's stash, but /everyone's/?

[Dhavaer]

All of the ones in Britain for sure. Since Rowling was regretting putting time travel in there, it's a fair bet there aren't any more.

[Hazkali]

All of the ones in Britain for sure. Since Rowling was regretting putting time travel in there, it's a fair bet there aren't any more.

:smalleek:

I hadn't heard that before.



And that's another thing they don't teach; Marketing! Word of mouth alone is a fine way for the already established firms to get on out there, but how do newer business make themselves known? They /can't/ be so stagnant as to have had the same businesses, and /only/ those businesses, for the last 1000 years!


But don't forget that the magical population of Britain is so much smaller than the whole population of the UK- in fact, it seems like they'd be hard pressed to fill a small town. The only apparent concentration of magical shops is the Diagon/Knockturn alley area, in which case most new shops would be obviously apparent. Plus, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a couple of advertisements in some of the wizarding publications could help get your company recognised.

I have had another thought on the matter of muggle science. Because their entire society runs on magic, it makes sense to teach magic from the lowest accountable age, i.e. from 1st year through to 7th year at Hogwarts. However, because muggle science is of limited application within their world, it makes more sense to teach it as part of any apprenticeship/additional training that they would go on to after Hogwarts (which we know they do, as I think it was mentioned during the Careers Information scene).

Therefore, a wizarding engineer would probably have an intensive study of the interactions of Newtonian physics and magic as part of his apprenticeship to become an engineer. Likewise, anyone wanting to become a Healer would probably study the anatomy/human biology/magic crossover.

However, I think they must learn some things about Newtonian mechanics in Charms (what with things constantly moving), as well as some things about genetics in Herbology and Care of Magical Creatures (cross-breeding plants and animals), and some things about anatomy in Potions and Transfiguration (as these both involve the body). I think this position is quite valid based on the fact we know so little about the theory that they so obviously study during the lessons.

And as for social/political sciences, these are fairly new subjects in their own right (and only very recently taught at an early level); Maybe it's just my science bias, but I could imagine a society functioning perfectly well without sociologists... :smallwink: to any sociologists reading.

It has just dawned on me how much of an Harry Potter apologist I have become. :smallfrown: Should I be worried?

[Kaelaroth]

Should I be worried?

Yes. Yes you should. :smalleek: :smallfrown: :smallconfused:


What about other languages? There seems to be no way for Hogwartian kids to learn other tongues, which is bloody stupid, considering how many mundane and magical ones there are. Rowling states in book 4 that Barty Crouch Senior speaks over two hundred languages, including Mermish, Troll and Gobbledegook, as well as many mundane human languages (as they need him to translate for Bulgaria). But, how did he learn all this? OK, maybe some of the more feral tongues through Care of Magical Creatures, but the others? And it's exceptionally hard to learn languages once you're out of the teenage years, so it's likely he learn them at school, i.e. Hogwarts. Someone care to help me out here? :smallconfused:

[Dihan]

Someone care to help me out here? :smallconfused:

Or it's just magic.

[Hazkali]

Yes. Yes you should. :smalleek: :smallfrown: :smallconfused:

Thanks...I think...


Someone care to help me out here? :smallconfused:

There's always the possibility of learning other languages in an extra-curricular capacity, such as a "Gobbledegook Club" where they learn Gobbledegook, etc.

[Serenity]

Yeah, I'd like to second the point that a number of subjects are covered so far as wizards need to know them in the context of other courses. Potion formulae, for example, would give them basic math.

[Yuki Akuma]

Or it's just magic.

Magic cannot create information. You can't learn anything from casting a spell at yourself.

I suppose you could transfer knowledge from yourself into someone else, but it's doubtful that works very well.

[Dihan]

Magic cannot create information. You can't learn anything from casting a spell at yourself.

I suppose you could transfer knowledge from yourself into someone else, but it's doubtful that works very well.

Or it's a spell that lets you understand any language.

[Yuki Akuma]

Or it's a spell that lets you understand any language.

Then why does Barty Crouch know so many when he should just be able to cast Tongues?

[Om]

All of the ones in Britain for sure. Since Rowling was regretting putting time travel in there, it's a fair bet there aren't any more.She regrets it? I wonder why... (http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=050918)

[Kaelaroth]

Then why does Barty Crouch know so many when he should just be able to cast Tongues?

Yeah, he shouldn't be needed in that case, as Ludo Bagman and Cornelius Fudge would just grant themselves the power to speak Bulgarian, or the Bulgarians would learn English in a jiffy. He must've been needed for a reason.

[Dihan]

Yeah, he shouldn't be needed in that case, as Ludo Bagman and Cornelius Fudge would just grant themselves the power to speak Bulgarian, or the Bulgarians would learn English in a jiffy. He must've been needed for a reason.

He made the spell himself and won't tell it to anyone else?

[Kaelaroth]

He made the spell himself and won't tell it to anyone else?

Yeah, that'd happen. Dumbledore has the same linguistic abilities, and I reckon many of the other important APs and GOs in HP's annoyingly happy universe speak every language in the cosmos. But how? Not because Barty Crouch created a tongues spell that only he can use.

Wait, I can prove myself right! Percy says that although he's very talented, Mr. Crouch can only speak 200 languages or so. Wouldn't he just magic up the rest with his special new spell?

[Dihan]

Yeah, that'd happen. Dumbledore has the same linguistic abilities, and I reckon many of the other important APs and GOs in HP's annoyingly happy universe speak every language in the cosmos. But how? Not because Barty Crouch created a tongues spell that only he can use.

Wait, I can prove myself right! Percy says that although he's very talented, Mr. Crouch can only speak 200 languages or so. Wouldn't he just magic up the rest with his special new spell?

200 is his intellectual limit?

Besides, why exactly are we arguing about this? It's just a book.

[Kaelaroth]

Besides, why exactly are we arguing about this? It's just a book.

I don't really know... :smallconfused: Where am I exactly?

[Dihan]

I don't really know... :smallconfused: Where am I exactly?

Only JK knows.

[Winterwind]

I would say the fact he can speak 200 languages is proof that there is magic involved. I seriously doubt that would be within the limits of normal mortals, unless for a very shoddy definition of speaking a language.

[Kaelaroth]

I would say the fact he can speak 200 languages is proof that there is magic involved. I seriously doubt that would be within the limits of normal mortals, unless for a very shoddy definition of speaking a language.

Well, many of the magic tongues are very simple. I mean, Fred Weasley basically defines Troll (one of BC's languages). Troll is bloody simple. Just point and grunt loudly till they get the message. Maybe other tongues are similar. And maybe he can speak them a bit. Like being able to say: Hi, Bye, Yum, More, Please, Thanks?

[Dihan]

Well, many of the magic tongues are very simple. I mean, Fred Weasley basically defines Troll (one of BC's languages). Troll is bloody simple. Just point and grunt loudly till they get the message. Maybe other tongues are similar. And maybe he can speak them a bit. Like being able to say: Hi, Bye, Yum, More, Please, Thanks?

Since when was Fred Weasley ever remotely serious?

[Kaelaroth]

Since when was Fred Weasley ever remotely serious?

He is when he is taking the piss out of Percy by illustrating an obviously truthful point.

[Rutee]

But don't forget that the magical population of Britain is so much smaller than the whole population of the UK- in fact, it seems like they'd be hard pressed to fill a small town. The only apparent concentration of magical shops is the Diagon/Knockturn alley area, in which case most new shops would be obviously apparent. Plus, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a couple of advertisements in some of the wizarding publications could help get your company recognised.
It's true, it is smaller. But also pretty darn spread out. Then again, it's not strictly a science you /need/ to make money, as society has lasted thousands of years without.

On the other hand, it's still stupidity to /ignore/ it. See, you can make money without, but you'll make more money /with/ it. Why wouldn't an enterprising individual, particularly if he's making a startup, ignore it?


I would say the fact he can speak 200 languages is proof that there is magic involved. I seriously doubt that would be within the limits of normal mortals, unless for a very shoddy definition of speaking a language.
Question: Why are we taking Percy's brownnosing seriously? Especially when there are only something like 50 to 75 active languages in the world?

[hanzo66]

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/307/6/d/Voldemort_vs_the_real_world_by_nuriko_kun.jpg
This drawing reminds me of this thread...

[The Extinguisher]

I think they learn all this theory stuff, and have the options of learning other languages, and such. (They probably learn about Muggle history in muggle studies) The only thing is, we don't read about in the books, because it's boring. They're, for the most part, children's books. And kids don't really want to read about boring everyday school stuff.

[puppyavenger]

about the anti tech field, how come fire and lightning works but electricity doesen't?

[Lord Iames Osari]

about the anti tech field, how come fire and lightning works but electricity doesen't?

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes / And other science facts / Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show, / I should really just relax.' (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.MST3KMantra)

[Winterwind]

Well, many of the magic tongues are very simple. I mean, Fred Weasley basically defines Troll (one of BC's languages). Troll is bloody simple. Just point and grunt loudly till they get the message. Maybe other tongues are similar. And maybe he can speak them a bit. Like being able to say: Hi, Bye, Yum, More, Please, Thanks?Well, that's what I meant by "very shoddy definition of speaking the language". And while more tongues could be like Troll, I find it doubtfull all (or even a majority) would be like this, not to mention that they would hardly count as different languages then. :smallwink:


Question: Why are we taking Percy's brownnosing seriously? Especially when there are only something like 50 to 75 active languages in the world?Would Percy make an error with something as important as a number? :smallwink:
Also, the world of Harry Potter likely has more languages than ours due to there being more sentient species around than in ours.


about the anti tech field, how come fire and lightning works but electricity doesen't?Very selective definition of "tech" again, I would say.
The definition being "anything adding to the atmosphere Rowling envisioned is sufficiently natural/magical to pass, anything else is too much tech".
Also, what Lord Iames Osari just said.

[Rowanomicon]

Harry Walking towards Hogwarts:
"Ah, it's beautiful! I love it here surrounded by magic. Electrical muggle technology doesn't even work here; no one from the boring world can bother us here." *falls down dead*

Ron:
Holy flaming red hair! What happened?!

Hermione:
Electricity doesn't work at Hogwarts; as soon as he entered the anti-tech field his central nervous system shut down.

Ron:
...yay magic?

[/script]

On a serious note some people have been talking about what they must or should learn. However there is a big difference between should and is.

Also on the languages. If we look at it seriously, which it's become quite apparent we should not, I can only take it to be A) misinformation or B) there are lots of really simple languages in HP.

[Tirian]

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes / And other science facts / Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show, / I should really just relax.' (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.MST3KMantra)

Boy, is that a tiresome refrain. Clearly, there is a difference between a show like MST3K that hangs a lampshade on their inane setting and the works of an author who seems to be satisfied with her efforts to create a logically cohesive world. Honestly, the MST3K people know this better than anyone, because their entire show is based on not "relaxing" when the movie is playing.

It is JKR who is making the claim that her story is legitimate allegory for World War 2 and the Resurrection and who knows what else. If she went back to her original mantra that this is just sixth-grade pony fiction (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32378) about oddly-flavored jelly beans and zany three-dimensional sports that can be instantly mastered by a ragtag orphan with thick glasses, then it would be OCD to too closely examine the consistency and relevance of the model.

[Rutee]

Boy, is that a tiresome refrain. Clearly, there is a difference between a show like MST3K that hangs a lampshade on their inane setting and the works of an author who seems to be satisfied with her efforts to create a logically cohesive world. Honestly, the MST3K people know this better than anyone, because their entire show is based on not "relaxing" when the movie is playing.

Wait, wait, wait.

JKR seriously made claims to having some sort of Most Excellent Adventure that was serious and yada-yada-yada? Cite that for me, and the gloves are off. >.>

[Rowanomicon]

Yeah, please site that.

If it's true then...well, there's not much I really can do about it...except...

JKR: Hey! My books contain racism: allegory for WWII!

JRK (Me): *reaches through the internet and stabs JKR in the face from the computer nearest her*

[Tirian]

Wait, wait, wait.

JKR seriously made claims to having some sort of Most Excellent Adventure that was serious and yada-yada-yada? Cite that for me, and the gloves are off. >.>


I think that if you're, I think most of us if you were asked to name a very evil regime we would think Nazi Germany. There were parallels in the ideology. I wanted Harry to leave our world and find exactly the same problems in the wizarding world. So you have the intent to impose a hierarchy, you have bigotry, and this notion of purity, which is this great fallacy, but it crops up all over the world. People like to think themselves superior and that if they can pride themselves in nothing else they can pride themselves on perceived purity. So yeah that follows a parallel. It wasn't really exclusively that. I think you can see in the Ministry even before it's taken over, there are parallels to regimes we all know and love. [Laughter and applause.] So you ask what lessons, I suppose. The Potter books in general are a prolonged argument for tolerance, a prolonged plea for an end to bigotry, and I think ti's one of the reasons that some people don't like the books, but I think that's it's a very healthy message to pass on to younger people that you should question authority and you should not assume that the establishment or the press tells you all of the truth.

That's from the "Dumbledore is gay" Carnegie Hall lecture, full transcript here (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/10/20/j-k-rowling-at-carnegie-hall-reveals-dumbledore-is-gay-neville-marries-hannah-abbott-and-scores-more).


To me [the religious parallels have] always been obvious, but I never wanted to talk too openly about it because I thought it might show people who just wanted the story where we were going.

This and much much more about how important the Biblical and pagan roots of her Death Hallows theology were to her in the MTV interview, reported on here (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/20071017/id_0.jhtml).

So, you see, this is Quite an Important Work we have here.

[Rutee]

And like all Very Important Works, it must be examined.

I'd say MST3k Mantra and Bellisario's Maxim no longer apply, wouldn't you?

[Rowanomicon]

While I agree that the idea of tolerance is the one that is seen as right in the work I hardly think the series qualifies as educational or a plea for tolerance.

[Aquillion]

...but this actually makes sense, doesn't it? The wizards are shown as having little more than early Renaissance technology, and what they have of that they owe heavily to magic, interaction with other races, what they borrowed from the 'muggle' world before they cut themselves off. They don't seem to know any metallurgy or engineering, say (they rely on goblins). They know nothing about the human body; they just rely on magic to heal. Some vague knowledge probably seeps in from humans, but for the most part, yes, they're a bunch of barely-literate Medieval noblemen with magic wands.

People like Dumbledore know a bit more, but remember that they're old, older than anyone ever gets in the real world, and most of the ones we see are specifically scholars. I was under the impression that the book did, in fact, show most wizards as fairly ignorant of everything but magic.

[Rutee]

I don't think it has the same impact when it's the accidental effect of making your protagonist's 'race', as it were, cripplingly overspecialized idiots; As a theme from the start, that's different, but as patchwork thrown over the works as you realize a problem yourself.. I'm doubtful.

[Aquillion]

I don't think it has the same impact when it's the accidental effect of making your protagonist's 'race', as it were, cripplingly overspecialized idiots; As a theme from the start, that's different, but as patchwork thrown over the works as you realize a problem yourself.. I'm doubtful.Hmm? The series definitely has its flaws, and I don't have any illusions that it's anything but some decent children's books... still, I think this part, at least, is consistent throughout.

Wizards in its world are like old-world aristocrats, essentially. Some of them are down-on-their-luck aristocrats, but they've still got "the blood". They use the 'lesser races' as servants and slaves to do all the real work. Hogwarts is not a public school as we would consider it, but a sort of "social" academy, a finishing school for young wizards... going there has as much to do with getting to know the other wizards who will be ruling the world with you as it does with actually learning anything. The high status of wizards as a whole in the world is a running theme in the book, and the focus on families like Ron's as 'down-on-their-luck-nobles' is pretty clear. A lot of what Dumbledore says focuses on the idea of a 'responsibility' that wizards have due to their privileged position.

Yes, most of the wizards we see work at Hogwarts, the Ministry, or the media. This isn't surprising, because wizards run their world. There are many other races there; wizards are like the 'landed aristocrats' who have vast inherited privileges, go to special schools to hone their connections and learn a few proper 'gentlemanly' skills (the way noble children would once have studied fencing), and maybe get a government job if their inherited wealth and servants can't sustain them.

I thought this subtext was pretty blatant even from the first book onward. I mean, Harry's story is a typical rags-to-riches theme. What's the first thing Hagrid shows him in the very first book? Not a picture of his parents, not a heirloom, not his magic wand, not a broomstick, no, all that can wait. The very first thing Harry is shown is a huge, huge pile of all the money he's inhereted. Directly from the start people are talking about his lineage, comparing ancestors, and so on. Children of upstart families have older, more established families whispering about them and giving them nasty glares; if you marry the "wrong people", it's viewed as an embarrassment, and so on.

If anything, I thought that this theme sort of got lost in the later books, which was a bit of a shame.

[Rowanomicon]

I definitely think you're right as far as the first book and general allegory goes.

However, the series is anything but consistent.
That's one of my biggest gripes with it.
I'm just glad she broke out of her formula with the third book. I remember thinking after the second book that if she just keeps on with the same formula I wont bother reading any more HP books because her writing is not good enough to enjoy different versions of the same story again and again and again.

This is as opposed to Piers Anthony's Xanth books. Many (especially the earlier ones) follow a formula, but his writing is so fun (and the books are more for the fun than the story) that they're very readable anyway.

Hmm, I must start some Xanth discussions...tomorrow...

[Hyrael]

Maybe they get some chemistry and biology in Potions class. Maybe some physics in Transmutation, since they're magically rearranging the structure of the target of their spell on a subatomic level. Not to kill catgirls, but they have to learn some basic physical principles to understand how their magic works, assuming magic obeys any laws of physics.

Why should they have to learn any of this? Did they take any classes in entomology before turning buttons into beetles?

Sorry, but I'm an MTG fan, and I expect magic to make sense. If someone summons a wolf, they damn well better know alot about wolves.

I ask you, what's more complicated? Lighting a candle by magic, or making some0ne barf slugs by magic? one involves merely a manipulation of energy to incide the combustion of ambient atmospheric oxygen, while the other requres making gastropods appear within the stomach of a human. where di the gastropods come from?

Humans are frail, watery things, and non-lethal means of disabling them are very tricky. why then, is it so easy to stun someone, but a simple fireball so difficult?

Why bother with big, flashy Life-wiping spells when a simple introduction of metabolic poison into the targets body would be much easier? or lowering the ambient temperature until they freeze? Killing things isnt that hard.

[Rutee]

I suppose my beef with calling it an intended theme is that I have too much contempt for the author at this point to believe it was anything but a hasty later addition. It's.. hm. I recognized that there was potential for this sort of thing, yes, but it didn't seem an intention on the author's part. Kinda like how I don't really buy that Evangelion was deconstruction of Super Robots. The signs are all there, but it didn't seem to be the creator's intent, so I don't believe it is.

Granted, I think it /was/ intended by around the fourth book. Fifth is undeniable, what with the ministry of magic fountain, the centaur teacher, and all other stuff.

[Arakune]

New student: Well, all looks cool, but I think you forgot your notebook for the class.
Old Student: My what? My materials are right here if you're asking me.
New student: Let me see...
.
.
.
Old student: :smalleek: What is it? It's incredible!
New student: It's a little something of extraordinary technology called "pen" and "paper" :smallamused:
Old sutdent: Truly amazing :smalleek:
-----------------------------------------

Can't create food (if it means that can't create mater from nothing): Reasonable, but let's also forget the fact that dirt, air and water are more than enough to create food if you know the composition of the materials and know the recipe (and are smart enough to make a spell set to make food). Waving your wand and saying omnious latin words to create food? Impossible. Using some raw materials to make food, even if they doesn't look like materials for food (hell, you can even use waste if you're lazy!)? Why no one though about that?
Sure, you can't make lots of food with it, but certainly can make at least some.

Can't create love: But you can use magic to manipulate the emotions of someone in a very subtle way so said person will "love" you. You know, like those bastards that can "charm" someone and then put in to the trash bin, but a "magical version" of it to facilitate the task.

Can't create life: Reasonable.

Can't create information: They can't make a "storage" spell that can contain the specific knowledge? Even items that contain it? Something to speed the tough pattern? Something to increase the concentration?

Man... give these powers and training to someone in this forum and the world are doomed, will achieve world peace or will be at some short of ultra powerful benevolent (or not) dictatorial utopia (or distopia).

[thubby]

Why should they have to learn any of this? Did they take any classes in entomology before turning buttons into beetles?

Sorry, but I'm an MTG fan, and I expect magic to make sense. If someone summons a wolf, they damn well better know alot about wolves.

I ask you, what's more complicated? Lighting a candle by magic, or making some0ne barf slugs by magic? one involves merely a manipulation of energy to incide the combustion of ambient atmospheric oxygen, while the other requres making gastropods appear within the stomach of a human. where di the gastropods come from?

Humans are frail, watery things, and non-lethal means of disabling them are very tricky. why then, is it so easy to stun someone, but a simple fireball so difficult?

Why bother with big, flashy Life-wiping spells when a simple introduction of metabolic poison into the targets body would be much easier? or lowering the ambient temperature until they freeze? Killing things isnt that hard.

you can't just "make" fire any more than you can a slug, by your reasoning, you create something flaming, since it is "thrown" (side note, oxygen can't make fire by itself). all the components of a slug are present in a human, a large quantity of anything with a high burning temperature is surprisingly hard to come by(at least without compromising the immediate area), but more importantly how hard is it to stop flying oil (for example), the instant death spell is probably complicated and powerful because it isn't based on a "normal" method of death, which have as immediate ways to correct as create.
it should be known that magic could theoretically "create things out of thin air", since energy can be converted to matter.

[Rowanomicon]

That's what I was saying:

The average forumite here would be the most powerful wizard in the HP world simply by the fact that they can do a type of magic (without a wand) that is utterly foreign to HP wizards: thought.

[Arakune]

you can't just "make" fire any more than you can a slug, by your reasoning, you create something flaming, since it is "thrown" (side note, oxygen can't make fire by itself). all the components of a slug are present in a human, a large quantity of anything with a high burning temperature is surprisingly hard to come by(at least without compromising the immediate area), but more importantly how hard is it to stop flying oil (for example), the instant death spell is probably complicated and powerful because it isn't based on a "normal" method of death, which have as immediate ways to correct as create.
it should be known that magic could theoretically "create things out of thin air", since energy can be converted to matter.

Who need fire when you have water? H2 + O1/2 + magic = boom!
How about making your body enter in spontaneous combustion (all that phosphor in your body sure can be useful).

And I always thought that the Avdra Kedravra only shut down all sinapses of your body at same time (and by all, I really mean all). No way to survive that.

[elliott20]

I just get annoyed with the fact how JKR always seems happy to tack these teenage kids with extremely powerful stuff. I mean, honestly, you'd think the ministry would have better control over their artifacts, especially ones that have the power of time travel and what not.

It's like giving a highschool physics student a particle accelerator.

[Arakune]

I just get annoyed with the fact how JKR always seems happy to tack these teenage kids with extremely powerful stuff. I mean, honestly, you'd think the ministry would have better control over their artifacts, especially ones that have the power of time travel and what not.

It's like giving a highschool physics student a particle accelerator.

More likely, the experimental anti-gravity device along (if they beg enough) atomic firecracker (http://www.fabricadequadrinhos.com.br/mundocanibal/indexo.php?conteudo=episodios&mundo_id=12&id=629)