What is the definition of "source" as it pertains to the stacking rules?

[Venger]

Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
(emphasis mine)

Offshoot of question 705 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24703798&postcount=1504) from simple RAW.

For posterity, the basic question is, if you get an untyped bonus from source 1 and then another untyped bonus from source 2, do they stack?

The example given is a character who obtains still mind from archivist and then later obtains still mind from monk.

In my reading of the rules, since the character gets still mind from source 1 (archivist,) and then later gets it from source 2 (monk,) and the bonus is untyped, they would stack. Some others read the rule differently and argue that the name of the class feature is the source. Is there further information talking about what "source" means anywhere? Is it defined as either of these two things, or as a third thing?


A 705 correction

The source of the bonus here is the Still Mind class feature, not the Monk or Archivist classes. Bonuses from the same source do not stack.

It's the same reason the unarmored AC bonus from Monk and Unarmed Swordsage do not stack. They're both the same class feature: AC Bonus.

Where are you getting still mind 1? You're getting it from monk. That is one source. Where are you getting still mind 2? From archivist, source 2. Different sources, so they stack.

The unarmored AC bonus from monk and swordsage, original recipe or the unarmed variant, would indeed stack because it is untyped and they come from two different sources. If a rule saying that if you get a class feature with the same name from multiple sources then they do not stack exists, please cite it.

[Falontani]

I have no specific ruling; so this may not be RAW, but it is my opinion!

That out of the way:

The specific case of Still Mind seems to be read in one of two ways:

1. Monk grants a class feature called Still Mind that grants an untyped bonus to a saving throw. Archivist grants a class feature called Still Mind that grants an untyped bonus to a saving throw. Since both bonuses are untyped, and the source is different (monk vs archivist) then the bonuses stack.

2. Monk grants a class feature called Still Mind. Archivist grants a class feature called Still Mind. Still Mind grants an untyped bonus to a saving throw. Two iterations of the same ability granting the same bonus do not stack, therefore Still Mind does not stack with itself.

I will state that I am firmly in camp #2; so I am most likely biased towards that rationale. The reasons that I think this is the case:

1. (and my most important reason) A Dread Necromancer 4/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 character has many spells that are the same, but from different sources. Such as Death Knell. Death Knell when cast grants the caster a +1 untyped bonus to caster level, and a +2 untyped bonus to strength. If I cast the Cleric version of Death Knell and gain a +1 untyped bonus to caster level, then cast the Dread Necromancer version of Death Knell do I gain an additional +1 untyped bonus to caster level. Under argument 1, the source of the spell is Cleric and Dread Necromancer respectively, and thus I should gain the bonus. Under argument 2, the source of the bonus is the spell itself, and thus would not stack.

2. (much less of a reason, but still important to me) A Paladin of Freedom 4/Barbarian 1/Champion of Gwynharwyf 2/Holy Liberator 4 will possess three iterations of the class feature Divine Grace, without being difficult to conceptualize or build. Three times my charisma modifier to saving throws is extremely powerful defensively. I don't think these features should stack. (like I said, much less a reason)

[Zarvistic]

In that stacking rules you quote it mentions the source of the modifiers, not the source of the feature. Still mind is the source in this case I believe, not the classes that grant it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Where are you getting still mind 1? You're getting it from monk. That is one source. Where are you getting still mind 2? From archivist, source 2. Different sources, so they stack.

The unarmored AC bonus from monk and swordsage, original recipe or the unarmed variant, would indeed stack because it is untyped and they come from two different sources. If a rule saying that if you get a class feature with the same name from multiple sources then they do not stack exists, please cite it.

It is self-evident that the bonuses come from the class features, and not from the classes themselves. Does a Monk have +2 to saves against enchantments when they become a Monk? No, it's only when they gain the Still Mind class feature at level 3. Does a Paladin gain +Charisma to all saves when they become a Paladin? No, it's when they gain the Divine Grace class feature at level 2.

To say that a class is the "source" of any bonus is clearly wrong. Bonuses come from specific class features, and those sometimes are provided by different classes. There is no "Still Mind 1" and "Still Mind 2". You either have the class feature "Still Mind" or you don't.

If you played a Monk who had some ACF that exchanged Still Mind for some other ability, you would not gain +2 to saves against enchantment spells. A Monk only gains that bonus when they have the source feature, Still Mind. The Monk class is not the source of that bonus, the Still Mind class feature is.

A character class only grants class features, which then sometimes provide specific bonuses to a character. There is absolutely no evidence that supports any different interpretation.

[Venger]

It is self-evident that the bonuses come from the class features, and not from the classes themselves.
No, it isn't, because the rules I quoted say nothing of the sort.


Does a Monk have +2 to saves against enchantments when they become a Monk? No, it's only when they gain the Still Mind class feature at level 3. Does a Paladin gain +Charisma to all saves when they become a Paladin? No, it's when they gain the Divine Grace class feature at level 2.
Right, but what is the source of still mind? Monk. What is the source of divine grace? Paladin. You go back as far as you can and that is the source. Calling class features "sources" does not make it so.



To say that a class is the "source" of any bonus is clearly wrong. Bonuses come from specific class features, and those sometimes are provided by different classes. There is no "Still Mind 1" and "Still Mind 2". You either have the class feature "Still Mind" or you don't.
By that logic, a mystic theurge does not function, because you had "spellcasting" from say wizard, and you also had "spellcasting" from say cleric. According to your reading since they have the same name, they would not both be allowed to apply.

Specific could also not trump general in this instance since this is a foundational rule, so even classes that specify features with the same name which specify they stack, such as scar enforcer's favored enemy stacking with ranger's favored enemy would have no authority to do so. It is known neither of these is the case, so your reading does not make sense.

[Troacctid]

The RAW is that the rules don't define "source" to this level of specificity, so it falls to the DM to adjudicate.

[Khedrac]

There is no RAW answer to this question.

Probably the closest we come are Skip Williams' Rules of the Game articles on bonus stacking (Part 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a), Part 2 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a), Part 3 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040203a) and Part 4 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a)) and they don't address this issue.

When it comes to class features the debate can be summarised as "Is the source the 'class feature' or the 'class's class feature'?"
E.g. is the feature the [Still Mind class ability] or the [Still Mind monk class ability]?
If the answer is the first then it won't stack with the same ability from a different class, if the second then it will stack with the equivalent ability from a different class.

One of the few points usually agreed upon is that if the class ability has the same name but different text then it is a different ability (WotC not having been good at checking for name reuse).

The only real answer anyone can give is DM's call.

Beyond that people are stating their opinions and their reasons for them.
Some positions and reasons can be shown to be invalid, but, unfortunately, not enough to answer the question one way or the other.

[Biggus]

The Rules Compendium (p.21) supports Killian Hawkeye's argument that the class feature is the source:


Many racial abilities, class features, spells, and magic items offer bonuses

Now I've seen this, I have to change my opinion expressed in the original thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618620-Do-multiple-sources-of-Fast-Movement-stack) that started this debate, and say that same-named class features don't stack unless they specify otherwise (it also occurs to me that the fact certain class features such as Sneak Attack specify that they do stack supports this interpretation).

[SirNibbles]

No, it isn't, because the rules I quoted say nothing of the sort.


Right, but what is the source of still mind? Monk. What is the source of divine grace? Paladin. You go back as far as you can and that is the source. Calling class features "sources" does not make it so.


By that logic, a mystic theurge does not function, because you had "spellcasting" from say wizard, and you also had "spellcasting" from say cleric. According to your reading since they have the same name, they would not both be allowed to apply.

Specific could also not trump general in this instance since this is a foundational rule, so even classes that specify features with the same name which specify they stack, such as scar enforcer's favored enemy stacking with ranger's favored enemy would have no authority to do so. It is known neither of these is the case, so your reading does not make sense.





STACKING
Bonuses of different types always stack. Bonuses that have identical types don’t stack, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect.

Rules Compendium, page 21


Is Still Mind the same effect as Still Mind? I'd lean towards yes.

Then again, you've got AC Bonus (from Monk) which is +Wis and a certain number to AC, and AC Bonus (Fist of the Forest) which is +Con. Both are untyped bonuses, but are they the same effect/same source?

[Fouredged Sword]

No, it isn't, because the rules I quoted say nothing of the sort.


Right, but what is the source of still mind? Monk. What is the source of divine grace? Paladin. You go back as far as you can and that is the source. Calling class features "sources" does not make it so.


By that logic, a mystic theurge does not function, because you had "spellcasting" from say wizard, and you also had "spellcasting" from say cleric. According to your reading since they have the same name, they would not both be allowed to apply.

Specific could also not trump general in this instance since this is a foundational rule, so even classes that specify features with the same name which specify they stack, such as scar enforcer's favored enemy stacking with ranger's favored enemy would have no authority to do so. It is known neither of these is the case, so your reading does not make sense.
The spellcasting features of various casting classes don't stack. They function completely independently without interaction. The spellcasting feature you get from Cleric, for example, has zero interaction with the spellcasting feature you get from wizard. Different bonuses you get from the same source both apply. They don't stack because they are different bonuses.

[Debatra]

While the above arguments of "RAW is silent, so it's DM's call" are correct to my knowledge; I feel the need to point out that there are several class features, such as Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge, that specifically state either that they stack when gained by multiple classes or define what to do when gained multiple times, thus implying that they normally don't unless specified.

But again, implication is not necessarily RAW.

[Kayblis]

The spellcasting features of various casting classes don't stack. They function completely independently without interaction. The spellcasting feature you get from Cleric, for example, has zero interaction with the spellcasting feature you get from wizard. Different bonuses you get from the same source both apply. They don't stack because they are different bonuses.

If you had them "not stack", you wouldn't get different sets of spell slots. You'd only get the higher number, because they wouldn't stack. You also wouldn't get bonus slots for different stats, because they wouldn't stack. Saying a Wizard's slots are somehow different from Sorcerer slots is drawing lines in the sand. They're different because they're separate, they stack completely as separate features and don't interact with eachother. You get X 1st level slots from Wizard AND Y 1st level slots from Sorcerer. Having levels of Sorcerer doesn't let you spontaneously cast from Wizard slots, or cast Cleric spells spontaneously from your Sorcerer slots.

The problem is people think "stack" means "mix together". It actually means "the features don't see eachother", the features work the same regardless of the existance of others, being actually different and not interacting. Not stacking actually means "mix together, get only the highest value for each parameter".

[Twurps]

I understand the dilemma, and agree with those saying there is no RAW answer (that I'm aware of).
However:



Right, but what is the source of still mind? Monk. What is the source of divine grace? Paladin. You go back as far as you can and that is the source. Calling class features "sources" does not make it so.

I feel like: 'going back as far as you can' kind of fails every time. Either it means you always end up with 2 sources: Even the example given in the rules '2 identical spells cast in succession' would be different sources, as 1 comes from 1 spell-slot, and the other comes from another spell slot. Or...

Of course we could 'go back' even further, but that would ultimately lead to everything coming from 1 source, being: 'The character' as everything ultimately derives from starting the character.

Obviously I don't advocate either of those examples. Rather these serve as extremes demonstrating some kind of middle ground needs to be established. Bringing me back to: DM's call.

[KillianHawkeye]

Spellcasting provides no direct bonus. It's the ability to cast spells, which do various things. The question of "stacking" simply doesn't apply to that ability, so discussing it is literally nonsense.