Immortality through staying awake in bed all night, and incidentally being evil

[sreservoir]

BoVD has that infamous spell Steal Life which has that neat little effect of reducing your age by draining ability points from the target. Now, presumably the idea was that the evil spellcaster drains the subject to a husk and leaves a frankly not-too-hard-to-hide trail of about one dead body a year, but on closer inspection that ability drain can be healed by six casting of restoration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) (one per ability), so at the cost of 600 gp a year or so (chump change if you can cast an 8th-level spell, right?), all you need is a chump willing to sit there and get drained for a few minutes without forcing you to make Concentration checks, no trail of bodies.

But wait, why do we even need this extra party involved? The target line just specifies one living humanoid—who's to say you can't just drain yourself? That's right, just drain ... your own life force ... to extend your lifespan...

Now granted, this would normally seem like a pretty bad idea, since you're draining all your abilities evenly, you could plausibly brick yourself, &c., and to avoid that you'd basically have to get much lower restoration efficiency.

But it turns out it doesn't matter, because a few weeks ago someone brought up the fact that there is, in fact, a printed at-will restoration item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617940-3-X-Wondrous-Architecture-Bed-of-Restoration). But it's not just the fact that it saves you the restoration castings; the bed seems to also just ... save you the actions to actually cast restoration. This is good, because Steal Life has Concentration duration with no limit.

So it seems you can cast the spell, then lie in bed while concentrating on it for, say, 6 hours (the duration of a stock desecrate scroll) draining a point per minute but never going below -4 in any particular score, and find yourself 3600 weeks (~70 years) younger in the morning.

(The spell is, of course, nevertheless [Evil].)

Does all of that seem to check out?

[Fouredged Sword]

BoVD has that infamous spell Steal Life which has that neat little effect of reducing your age by draining ability points from the target. Now, presumably the idea was that the evil spellcaster drains the subject to a husk and leaves a frankly not-too-hard-to-hide trail of about one dead body a year, but on closer inspection that ability drain can be healed by six casting of restoration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) (one per ability), so at the cost of 600 gp a year or so (chump change if you can cast an 8th-level spell, right?), all you need is a chump willing to sit there and get drained for a few minutes without forcing you to make Concentration checks, no trail of bodies.

But wait, why do we even need this extra party involved? The target line just specifies one living humanoid—who's to say you can't just drain yourself? That's right, just drain ... your own life force ... to extend your lifespan...

Now granted, this would normally seem like a pretty bad idea, since you're draining all your abilities evenly, you could plausibly brick yourself, &c., and to avoid that you'd basically have to get much lower restoration efficiency.

But it turns out it doesn't matter, because a few weeks ago someone brought up the fact that there is, in fact, a printed at-will restoration item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617940-3-X-Wondrous-Architecture-Bed-of-Restoration). But it's not just the fact that it saves you the restoration castings; the bed seems to also just ... save you the actions to actually cast restoration. This is good, because Steal Life has Concentration duration with no limit.

So it seems you can cast the spell, then lie in bed while concentrating on it for, say, 6 hours (the duration of a stock desecrate scroll) draining a point per minute but never going below -4 in any particular score, and find yourself 3600 weeks (~70 years) younger in the morning.

(The spell is, of course, nevertheless [Evil].)

Does all of that seem to check out?
Sounds unpleasant. Make sure to cast the spell that turns pain into pleasure first.

Also make sure to have a high concentration check. Causing yourself ability damage should trigger a concentration check each round to maintain concentration of the drain life spell.

[Venger]

You could also drain someone who'd bound Naberius, but this is much funnier.

Sounds unpleasant. Make sure to cast the spell that turns pain into pleasure first.

Also make sure to have a high concentration check. Causing yourself ability damage should trigger a concentration check each round to maintain concentration of the drain life spell.
Was it errataed that ability damage forces a check? I thought only hp damage did.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Sounds unpleasant. Make sure to cast the spell that turns pain into pleasure first.

Also make sure to have a high concentration check. Causing yourself ability damage should trigger a concentration check each round to maintain concentration of the drain life spell.

I mean, ability damage and drain usually come from sickness or poison, so it might just make you feel awful, not specifically hurt.

but yeah, pain to pleasure, suck your own life force, sounds like a fun night.

[False God]

Presumably, if you're an adventurer you're going to kill someone once per full moon anyway. So you might as well make someone else suffer horribly for your own benefit.

Since there are 6 ability scores and 52 weeks in a year, assuming you only want to remain the same year of age forever, you only need a creature with an average score of 9. You don't even need to be evil (as the evil descriptor doesn't require an evil character). You could simply be that kindly high level mage who goes into small towns and helps "from the kindness of your heart" while you drain some kobold to death, or while you're at it if you need a couple extra years for some reason, drain a few.

You'll be heralded as a saviour, paid for your time and become well known throughout the lands as a kindly hero who helps the needy. It's unlikely anyone will even care that you're using an "evil" spell to extend your life. In fact they'll probably come to your defense should anyone make a fuss.

[Fouredged Sword]

You could also drain someone who'd bound Naberius, but this is much funnier.

Was it errataed that ability damage forces a check? I thought only hp damage did.

Pretty sure the SRD just says "damage" but the numbers are so low the check should be something like 11 or so. It shouldn't be hard to autopass ether way.

[Doctor Despair]

Pretty sure the SRD just says "damage" but the numbers are so low the check should be something like 11 or so. It shouldn't be hard to autopass ether way.

Technically, you still have to make a concentration check if you are distracted by a non-damaging spell effect, and the DC is the spell's save, so it not counting as damage could actually result in a higher DC.

[sreservoir]

Also make sure to have a high concentration check. Causing yourself ability damage should trigger a concentration check each round to maintain concentration of the drain life spell.

That's a good point. If we consider it a damaging spell doing 1 point of (ability drain) damage at a time, it looks like a 19 DC (10 + 1 damage + 8 for level of spell maintained) though, which is low enough that I don't see how it wouldn't be an auto-pass if you can cast the spell at all.

If we treat it as distraction by nondamaging spell, the minimum DC seems to be 30 (save DC 22 + 8), which should still be a gimme if you're casting the spell. And even if it isn't, Aiming at the Target (SpC 8) can provide a +10 for this specific purpose.

Also interestingly, Sonorous Hum (SpC 196), the spell that lets you maintain a concentration spell for 1 min/level without spending actions on it, specifies "If you take damage, you must still make a Concentration check to maintain the spell." I wonder if this implies you don't need to make checks for non-damage distractions.


You could also drain someone who'd bound Naberius, but this is much funnier.

Well, Naberius only heals drain at 1/hour, so you could drain them down to 1 Con and they'd get better but it wouldn't exactly be continuously sustainable.

[Max Caysey]

BoVD has that infamous spell Steal Life which has that neat little effect of reducing your age by draining ability points from the target. Now, presumably the idea was that the evil spellcaster drains the subject to a husk and leaves a frankly not-too-hard-to-hide trail of about one dead body a year, but on closer inspection that ability drain can be healed by six casting of restoration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) (one per ability), so at the cost of 600 gp a year or so (chump change if you can cast an 8th-level spell, right?), all you need is a chump willing to sit there and get drained for a few minutes without forcing you to make Concentration checks, no trail of bodies.

But wait, why do we even need this extra party involved? The target line just specifies one living humanoid—who's to say you can't just drain yourself? That's right, just drain ... your own life force ... to extend your lifespan...

Now granted, this would normally seem like a pretty bad idea, since you're draining all your abilities evenly, you could plausibly brick yourself, &c., and to avoid that you'd basically have to get much lower restoration efficiency.

But it turns out it doesn't matter, because a few weeks ago someone brought up the fact that there is, in fact, a printed at-will restoration item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617940-3-X-Wondrous-Architecture-Bed-of-Restoration). But it's not just the fact that it saves you the restoration castings; the bed seems to also just ... save you the actions to actually cast restoration. This is good, because Steal Life has Concentration duration with no limit.

So it seems you can cast the spell, then lie in bed while concentrating on it for, say, 6 hours (the duration of a stock desecrate scroll) draining a point per minute but never going below -4 in any particular score, and find yourself 3600 weeks (~70 years) younger in the morning.

(The spell is, of course, nevertheless [Evil].)

Does all of that seem to check out?

Hmm... Why would it matter that the spell has the evil descriptor? Is that not only important for good aligned clerics or am I missing something?

Secondly, one could argue that RAI you are not supposed to drain yourself...

[Remuko]

Hmm... Why would it matter that the spell has the evil descriptor? Is that not only important for good aligned clerics or am I missing something?

Secondly, one could argue that RAI you are not supposed to drain yourself...

Casting spells with the Evil tag changes your alignment over time. If you were abusing this frequently in the suggested manner OP says, you would become evil, regardless of your morality or other actions in your life. (alignment is descriptive not prescriptive though so nothing would force you to ACT evil, just because your alignment changed, but its still worth noting that it does since some effects matter what your alignment is)

[One Step Two]

Casting spells with the Evil tag changes your alignment over time. If you were abusing this frequently in the suggested manner OP says, you would become evil, regardless of your morality or other actions in your life. (alignment is descriptive not prescriptive though so nothing would force you to ACT evil, just because your alignment changed, but its still worth noting that it does since some effects matter what your alignment is)

This is true, but with the necessity of only casting the spell once every 30 years? Assuming you let yourself reach 50, and decide to reset back to 20 that is. It would be a blip on the radar of infinity. Call your cleric in the morning for an atonement spell, and no problem.

[Doctor Despair]

This is true, but with the necessity of only casting the spell once every 30 years? Assuming you let yourself reach 50, and decide to reset back to 20 that is. It would be a blip on the radar of infinity. Call your cleric in the morning for an atonement spell, and no problem.

One would think casting a spell with the Good descriptor would undo the damage, but I can't remember whether or not the DnD system is amenable to alignment calculations like that. I remember there was a lot of debate on the morality of a city using undead to serve/power everything and generally eliminate all evil and suffering from the city, and how certain DnD books are adamant that any use of undead, whether for good purposes or not, is a decidedly Evil act, by merit of the descriptor, and how a "good" necromancer was letting negative energy into the world/letting evil into the world... As you said, though, one use every 20-30 years probably won't do much to your alignment, especially if you live an otherwise virtuous life.

[Max Caysey]

Casting spells with the Evil tag changes your alignment over time. If you were abusing this frequently in the suggested manner OP says, you would become evil, regardless of your morality or other actions in your life. (alignment is descriptive not prescriptive though so nothing would force you to ACT evil, just because your alignment changed, but its still worth noting that it does since some effects matter what your alignment is)

I have never come across this... from whence is this rule?

[Doctor Despair]

I have never come across this... from whence is this rule?

Don't quote me, but... I think it was the Book of Vile Darkness. It is definitely a thing though.

[Gusmo]

While using an evil spell is explicitly an evil act, there isn't much in the way of rules support for evil acts (spellcasting or anything else) changing alignment over time. Surely you can find someone otherwise condemned and utterly revolting to drain once a year. To balance the scales, resurrect someone who died in an accident or something.

[Thurbane]

If you want to avoid being evil, you could opt for Hellbred - who specifically get to cast spells with the Evil tag with no (or lesser) consequences.

Actually, would make a kind of sense for a Hellbred to keep prolonging their life to avoid going back to the lower planes...

[Venger]

One would think casting a spell with the Good descriptor would undo the damage, but I can't remember whether or not the DnD system is amenable to alignment calculations like that. I remember there was a lot of debate on the morality of a city using undead to serve/power everything and generally eliminate all evil and suffering from the city, and how certain DnD books are adamant that any use of undead, whether for good purposes or not, is a decidedly Evil act, by merit of the descriptor, and how a "good" necromancer was letting negative energy into the world/letting evil into the world... As you said, though, one use every 20-30 years probably won't do much to your alignment, especially if you live an otherwise virtuous life.
It doesn't. There are rules for how you can damn your soul with various innocuous acts in the fiendish codices, but by strict RAW, you can never actually remove sin-stains from your soul by doing the opposite Good thing like casting Good spells or letting a Good law-enforcement officer boss you around. Once you get to 9 points of corruption, you are irrevocably damned.

It's a common houserule to say doing Good things pushes you in the other direction when playing in faerun/greyhawk though which seems perfectly reasonable.


I have never come across this... from whence is this rule?
Fiendish codex 1 and fiendish codex 2.


If you want to avoid being evil, you could opt for Hellbred - who specifically get to cast spells with the Evil tag with no (or lesser) consequences.

Actually, would make a kind of sense for a Hellbred to keep prolonging their life to avoid going back to the lower planes...
You could also play in eberron where anyone is allowed to cast any spell regardless of alignment because it understands spells are tools and what you do with them is what makes you Good or Evil or adopt this rule in your own game even if it's not set there.

[Blackhawk748]

You could also play in eberron where anyone is allowed to cast any spell regardless of alignment because it understands spells are tools and what you do with them is what makes you Good or Evil or adopt this rule in your own game even if it's not set there.

Or just research your own version of this spell that can only effect the caster and remove the Evil tag.

Either way I find this amusing.

[One Step Two]

Or just research your own version of this spell that can only effect the caster and remove the Evil tag.

Either way I find this amusing.

Done.

Borrowed Time
Transmutation
Level: Sorc/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, Location
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Concentration

The caster wishing to prevent their demise by age can sacrifice their own life force in order to regain their youth.

This spell must be cast on the night of a full moon, during which time she becomes effectively one week younger for every Ability point she drains. Her age is reduced, but memories and abilities acquired during that week are not lost, though her youthful form will be less capable than before due to the ability drain caused by this spell.

Each round the caster concentrates, she deals 1 point of ability score drain to herself. Although the caster can choose which ability score to drain, she must choose a different ability score to drain in each round and cannot choose a score already drained until she has drained all the others equally, at which point the process starts over. Thus, if the caster drains 1 point of Strength, she must choose another ability in the next round and cannot choose Strength again until she has drained 1 point each of Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Then, the caster can drain a second point of Strength (or any other ability), but not a third until she has drained a second point from all the other ability scores.

Location Component: The area must be a dedicated Sanctum of the caster (see Sanctum Spell metamagic for details on how to designate a Sanctum)

[Jack_Simth]

It doesn't. There are rules for how you can damn your soul with various innocuous acts in the fiendish codices, but by strict RAW, you can never actually remove sin-stains from your soul by doing the opposite Good thing like casting Good spells or letting a Good law-enforcement officer boss you around. Once you get to 9 points of corruption, you are irrevocably damned. Not irrevocably. See Fiendish Codex II, page 30; you want the section titled "Removing Corruption Points".

Also: You still need to be Lawful (or make a deal with a devil) for corruption to drag you to Baator. An NG or CG type who commits a bunch of corrupt acts (and commits enough more Good acts to maintain a Good alignment) doesn't hit that clause.

[sreservoir]

Don't quote me, but... I think it was the Book of Vile Darkness. It is definitely a thing though.

BoVD's position is ... interesting. It lists "casting evil spells" under the heading of "evil acts", then later claims


[...] Tapping into evil power is an evil act in and of itself, no matter what the effects or the reason for using the power might be.

By this definition, as a variant rule, the following spells from the Player’s Handbook should be considered evil and have the evil descriptor: contagion, deathwatch, desecrate, doom, and trap the soul.

(Interestingly, the first three of those spells did become evil in the 3.5e transition; the Evil descriptor on deathwatch has puzzled everyone ever since.)

But it also hedges a bit in that first section:


Sometimes, a nonevil spellcaster can get away with casting a few evil spells, as long as he or she does not do so for an evil purpose. But the path of evil magic leads quickly to corruption and destruction.

Meanwhile, FC2 and HoH have it contribute to corruption and taint (respectively), both of which make evil-related things happen to you, but are also technically independent of having an evil alignment.

Ironically, the most explicit statement I can find of casting an evil spell being evil comes from ECS, in the process otherwise relaxing cleric alignment restrictions:


Casting an evil spell is an evil act, and a good cleric’s alignment may begin to change if she repeatedly casts such spells, but the deities of Eberron do not prevent their clerics from casting spells opposed to their alignments.


If you want to avoid being evil, you could opt for Hellbred - who specifically get to cast spells with the Evil tag with no (or lesser) consequences.

Actually, would make a kind of sense for a Hellbred to keep prolonging their life to avoid going back to the lower planes...

The hellbred racial feature doesn't seem to actually keep you from becoming evil; it just enables you to make use of Evil things in spite of your alignment. The flavour certainly fits, though.


You could also play in eberron where anyone is allowed to cast any spell regardless of alignment because it understands spells are tools and what you do with them is what makes you Good or Evil or adopt this rule in your own game even if it's not set there.

On the contrary, in Eberron casting evil spells is explicitly evil, and the same sentence explicitly calls out potential alignment change:


A cleric can cast spells with any alignment descriptor. Casting an evil spell is an evil act, and a good cleric’s alignment may begin to change if she repeatedly casts such spells, but the deities of Eberron do not prevent their clerics from casting spells opposed to their alignments.

It's true having your alignment shift is fairly low-impact in Eberron, but the setting merely has distant gods, it's not free of alignment.


Not irrevocably. See Fiendish Codex II, page 30; you want the section titled "Removing Corruption Points".

Somehow, though, I get the feeling that the "giving up all benefits gained from the act of corruption" criterion is going to be a bit hard to achieve, at least unless getting old again counts as giving up the benefit of restoring your youth...

[Venger]

Not irrevocably. See Fiendish Codex II, page 30; you want the section titled "Removing Corruption Points".

Also: You still need to be Lawful (or make a deal with a devil) for corruption to drag you to Baator. An NG or CG type who commits a bunch of corrupt acts (and commits enough more Good acts to maintain a Good alignment) doesn't hit that clause.
Isn't that only referring to making amends for corruption points accrued through Faustian bargains? It doesn't list a way to counteract the corruption/obeisance from everyday behavior aside from bargains, since it makes repeated reference to the boon you gained directly from the devils in it. Does it also apply to activities outside bargains?

Committing acts of obeisance (assuming you follow fc's rules strictly) will eventually change your alignment to Lawful, so it doesn't really matter what your starting alignment is. Since stuff like "resolving a dispute through a lawful process" and "aiding a superior to your own detriment," acts that are often desirable, often Good, and largely unavoidable over a long enough period of time are obeisant, you'll get your number above 9 sooner or later.


On the contrary, in Eberron casting evil spells is explicitly evil, and the same sentence explicitly calls out potential alignment change:
No, it says "may." It's not strictly delineated as something that always does happen. I didn't say the setting was free of alignment.

[Gusmo]

If you plan on being immortal, the destination for your soul under these terms may be irrelevant. But if FC2 is in play, perhaps you could simply invest in the skills necessary to get yourself a hearing and release your soul from Hell? The text on this is specific to pacts, but we're deep into speculative territory already, it could reasonably be applied to any 'I don't belong here' situation.

[sreservoir]

Isn't that only referring to making amends for corruption points accrued through Faustian bargains? It doesn't list a way to counteract the corruption/obeisance from everyday behavior aside from bargains, since it makes repeated reference to the boon you gained directly from the devils in it. Does it also apply to activities outside bargains?

Committing acts of obeisance (assuming you follow fc's rules strictly) will eventually change your alignment to Lawful, so it doesn't really matter what your starting alignment is. Since stuff like "resolving a dispute through a lawful process" and "aiding a superior to your own detriment," acts that are often desirable, often Good, and largely unavoidable over a long enough period of time are obeisant, you'll get your number above 9 sooner or later.

It's any act independent of bargains afaict, with the wrinkle that neither corruption nor obeisance change your alignment per se; but if you happen to be any lawful and have 9+ corruption the devils get you regardless, and likewise if you're any evil and 9+ obeisance. If you're non-lawful, it looks like you get a free pass on corruption because the devils just don't have extradition treaties with the non-lawful deities or however that works.

But yeah, the FC2 corruption/obeisance may not be very sensible outside of a pact context; an awful lot of LN healer types are no doubt getting dragged off to hell for the crime of casting deathwatch at least 9 times...


No, it says "may." It's not strictly delineated as something that always does happen. I didn't say the setting was free of alignment.

Indeed, hence "potential" alignment change. That it is an evil act nevertheless is explicit. This passage simply doesn't give any more detail on how evil acts might translate to alignment change than anywhere else.


If you plan on being immortal, the destination for your soul under these terms may be irrelevant. But if FC2 is in play, perhaps you could simply invest in the skills necessary to get yourself a hearing and release your soul from Hell? The text on this is specific to pacts, but we're deep into speculative territory already, it could reasonably be applied to any 'I don't belong here' situation.

That only gets you out of condemnation for taking a pact; you can still explicitly be condemned for "unrelated grounds" based on corruption or obeisance score.

It's, uh, certainly quite devilish that the court procedure is straight opposed Diplomacy+Knowledge+Perform checks with no modifiers for whether any of the valid defenses can be considered remotely true, though.

[Jack_Simth]

Isn't that only referring to making amends for corruption points accrued through Faustian bargains? It doesn't list a way to counteract the corruption/obeisance from everyday behavior aside from bargains, since it makes repeated reference to the boon you gained directly from the devils in it. Does it also apply to activities outside bargains?It's it's own section... "benefits gained from the act of corruption" - while yes, it makes direct references to pacts (restitution is based on "...the original reward rating, as specified on the Faustian Pact Wealth Rewards table..."), but it's no more specific to Pacts than Corrupt acts themselves are in the first place.

If you plan on being immortal, the destination for your soul under these terms may be irrelevant. But if FC2 is in play, perhaps you could simply invest in the skills necessary to get yourself a hearing and release your soul from Hell? The text on this is specific to pacts, but we're deep into speculative territory already, it could reasonably be applied to any 'I don't belong here' situation.
Everyone slips up eventually. Easiest out? "Be chaotic".

[Segev]

It is my opinion that any inherently-evil act should have a good reason why it is inherently evil. This spell’s intended use would work for that if enforced. Perhaps if the target was required to be an innocent, and must be killed for the de-aging to work.

It strikes me as somewhat lazy and super-nonsensical to arbitrarily label spells “[evil]” just because they’re icky. However, a fun challenge can be in determining what about the act of casting them makes them inherently evil. Maybe there’s some hidden side effect that is endemic to the casting or effect that does it.

As a really silly example, if deathwatch ripped the soul of an infant Humanoid somewhere on the plane where it was cast out of its body to grant the death sight, then cast that soul into the negative energy plane, that would explain the [evil] descriptor, indeed, and also would not have much direct mechanical effect. You’re just causing Sudden Infant Death Syndrome on your plane, that’s all.

[Melcar]

BoVD has that infamous spell Steal Life which has that neat little effect of reducing your age by draining ability points from the target. Now, presumably the idea was that the evil spellcaster drains the subject to a husk and leaves a frankly not-too-hard-to-hide trail of about one dead body a year, but on closer inspection that ability drain can be healed by six casting of restoration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) (one per ability), so at the cost of 600 gp a year or so (chump change if you can cast an 8th-level spell, right?), all you need is a chump willing to sit there and get drained for a few minutes without forcing you to make Concentration checks, no trail of bodies.

But wait, why do we even need this extra party involved? The target line just specifies one living humanoid—who's to say you can't just drain yourself? That's right, just drain ... your own life force ... to extend your lifespan...

Now granted, this would normally seem like a pretty bad idea, since you're draining all your abilities evenly, you could plausibly brick yourself, &c., and to avoid that you'd basically have to get much lower restoration efficiency.

But it turns out it doesn't matter, because a few weeks ago someone brought up the fact that there is, in fact, a printed at-will restoration item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617940-3-X-Wondrous-Architecture-Bed-of-Restoration). But it's not just the fact that it saves you the restoration castings; the bed seems to also just ... save you the actions to actually cast restoration. This is good, because Steal Life has Concentration duration with no limit.

So it seems you can cast the spell, then lie in bed while concentrating on it for, say, 6 hours (the duration of a stock desecrate scroll) draining a point per minute but never going below -4 in any particular score, and find yourself 3600 weeks (~70 years) younger in the morning.

(The spell is, of course, nevertheless [Evil].)

Does all of that seem to check out?

Is this really rule legal? I'm asking for a friend! :smallbiggrin: