OOTS #1214 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Somewhere nearby, I can picture Elan suddenly going "Dun, dun, dun!".

I sure hope that our dwarves are able to get out of this one. I know after the last one they were sticking around too long. :smalleek:

[Fafnisbaninn]

Oh. Holy. Hell.

[Lerch]

Uh...Oh.. Gotta BAIL!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Oh dear. This is not going well at all.

[Fable Wright]

Didn't we have a whole book about why to not split the party?

Durkon, did you learn nothing?!

[Deuce]

Oh dear, Midna's chances for surviving this arc just went way down.

[MartectX]

Somewhere nearby, I can picture Elan suddenly going "Dun, dun, dun!".

I sure hope that our dwarves are able to get out of this one. I know after the last one they were sticking around too long. :smalleek:
He's actually doing that behindert the last panel!

[dancrilis]

This is starting to look less then ideal for Durkon - but I guess if he is quick thinking he can see about putting real negotiations back on the table.

Also hurrah Xykon is back.

[understatement]

It was really nice knowing these dwarves. RIP from ??-1184.

Out of the village, into the lich.

[Windscion]

Okay, not really a surprise that Xykon was lurking off panel. Wonder how much he learned?

[pendell]

Indeed , new comic.

So now things look as bad for our dwarven friends as they can possibly look, so I assume next strip shows the stunning reversal of fortune where one or both escape.

I notice the words of Redcloak:

:redcloak: we need only one.

*Nods* That looks like a bit of metacommentary as well. The party has more clerics than it needs right now. It wouldn't surprise me if Minrah is killed or captured at this point. Otherwise the last book and the six years writing it were a waste.

ETA: Also, this discredits the theory that our heroes were waiting the six rounds necessary to change back to mist as part of wind walk. If this were so, they would have no reason to escape on foot.

Time for the MITD to step in stage left and save the day. I think at this point Durkon and Minrah have already played all their cards.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[homeslice]

Welp, this stinks. Hope the rest of the party or whoever those disembodied voices were show up soon.

[Worldsong]

I was really expecting a more elaborate escape plan than 'legging it'.

Although I still love the interactions between Redcloak and Oona. It's nice that Redcloak finally has someone who isn't either outright unpleasant or submissive.

[Crim the Cold]

I don't think I have ever caught it when the comic has just uploaded. Neat! I wonder how they are going to get out of this.

[hamishspence]

Uh oh ...

Hope the rest of the Order turn up soon.

[Shale]

Uh-oh.

Looking a lot like V and O-Chul in Gobbotopia, but without the ace up their sleeve....

[homeslice]

It wouldn't surprise me if Minrah is killed or captured at this point. Otherwise the last book and the six years writing it were a waste.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

: 0

It really has been over six years since Durkon died. I can't believe it.

[ElderSage]

Welp, looks like the "Kraagor is the statue" theory is officially jossed. Or maybe not jossed, but if he gets turned back, that's pretty dead. The statue's definitely not indestructible, either.

[Fyraltari]

Well that's no good.

The party has more clerics than it needs right now. It wouldn't surprise me if Minrah is killed or captured at this point. Otherwise the last book and the six years writing it were a waste.

How does that follow?

[Worldsong]

Welp, looks like the "Kraagor is the statue" theory is officially jossed. Or maybe not jossed, but if he gets turned back, that's pretty dead. The statue's definitely not indestructible, either.

Maybe the individual pieces are indestructible!

[hungrycrow]

And now we see why negotiating straight away was such a bad idea. It's tough to see how Durkon will get out of this.

[EmperorSarda]

Zhu li, do the thing!

[Mastikator]

Fewer times have the villain of the story ever seemed so... impending doom-y

[Kaed]

Welp, looks like the "Kraagor is the statue" theory is officially jossed. Or maybe not jossed, but if he gets turned back, that's pretty dead. The statue's definitely not indestructible, either.

?????

Who comes up with a theory like this? He was literally, canonical eaten by the Snarl. He is dead and his soul is gone. There was a whole comic about how it broke up the order of the scribble.

This location they are at is called KRAAGORS TOMB. Implying a memorial. For someone dead.

[Xihirli]

Indeed , new comic.

So now things look as bad for our dwarven friends as they can possibly look, so I assume next strip shows the stunning reversal of fortune where one or both escape.

I notice the words of Redcloak:

:redcloak: we need only one.

*Nods* That looks like a bit of metacommentary as well. The party has more clerics than it needs right now. It wouldn't surprise me if Minrah is killed or captured at this point. Otherwise the last book and the six years writing it were a waste.

ETA: Also, this discredits the theory that our heroes were waiting the six rounds necessary to change back to mist as part of wind walk. If this were so, they would have no reason to escape on foot.

Time for the MITD to step in stage left and save the day. I think at this point Durkon and Minrah have already played all their cards.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


...Or, Minrah could have been introduced to the story to actually do something, and that wouldn't be a waste.

[Ruck]

Smithers, I'm starting to think Durkon Thundershield is not the brilliant tactician I thought he was.

[Fyraltari]

?????

Who comes up with a theory like this? He was literally, canonical eaten by the Snarl. He is dead and his soul is gone. There was a whole comic about how it broke up the order of the scribble.

I think the theory was that the statue was his remains, or something?

[Thales]

Oh dear. I hope the rest of the Order can get there in time...

I do feel like there shouldn't be a "the" in the strip title?

[pendell]

Well that's no good.


How does that follow?

Well, okay, it might not be a waste if Durkon is only captured rather than killed. My point is we just had an entire book dedicated to Durkon. Building up his backstory, fleshing out his family, looking at all his struggles, giving him a son to whom he wants to come back , and a literal god-given mission. Having him killed now means that the giant went through all that character building exercise for someone he would dispose of at the very beginning of the next book, almost casually.

Still, given the way Redcloak mentioned the act of capturing rather than interrogating implies that one of the two characters will be taken alive while the other will be killed beyond possibility of resurrection. Tactically, speaking, it makes more sense to take Durkon alive. He's higher level, was the lead negotiator, and presumably knows more. Neither cleric has the slightest chance against Xykon , of course, so which one he kills and which one he spares is entirely at his whim.

He could take them BOTH alive, of course, depending on his mood.

What I meant is that it is a waste if Durkon is perma-killed out of the story here. Which I think unlikely. If I had to choose I'd definitely want to see more Minrah rather than Durkon; she's relatively unexplored and interesting while I've seen more than enough of him in the past decade plus. But I'm not the one writing the comic.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

And now we see why negotiating straight away was such a bad idea. It's tough to see how Durkon will get out of this.

Maybe he is luring them into a false sense of security.

But yea if he had any easy ways out, wind walk, word of recall etc you would have expected him to use them already - talking to Xykon might be his best option, and as Xykon might be one of the only people (maybe the only person) who can get Redcloak to co-operate with him so it is worth a shot anyway to find out what Xykon actually wants in order to give up the plan.

[hungrycrow]

Maybe he is luring them into a false sense of security.

But yea if he had any easy ways out, wind walk, word of recall etc you would have expected him to use them already - talking to Xykon might be his best option, and as Xykon might be one of the only people (maybe the only person) who can get Redcloak to co-operate with him so it is worth a shot anyway to find out what Xykon actually wants in order to give up the plan.

As Redcloak said though, they only need one dwarf to talk to.

[Worldsong]

Maybe he is luring them into a false sense of security.

But yea if he had any easy ways out, wind walk, word of recall etc you would have expected him to use them already - talking to Xykon might be his best option, and as Xykon might be one of the only people (maybe the only person) who can get Redcloak to co-operate with him so it is worth a shot anyway to find out what Xykon actually wants in order to give up the plan.

Everything else aside, I don't think Durkon is going to see Xykon as being approachable after Redcloak has already turned him down.

[Darth Paul]

Something about frying pans and fires would be appropos here, I think.

[Giggling Ghast]

Well, this just went from bad to worse.

Where the hell did Oona get a jar of insects in a polar climate?

https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Jar_of_Bees

[Kaed]

I think the theory was that the statue was his remains, or something?

Even if it is somehow his remains it's been explicitly mentioned a number of times the Snarl will destroy your soul. It did the same to Soon's wife. They were also high-level adventurers so if they were capable of bringing him back to life they would have done that.

He is dead. Permanently. There is no secret Kraagor Resurrection plot twist and speculating over whether the statue is his corpse and/or he's been secretly not dead is silly.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, this just went from bad to worse.

Where the hell did Oona get a jar of insects in a polar climate?

Well, at the very least there are certainly artic mosquitoes (https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-07/dc-waa072320.php#:~:text=While%20Arctic%20mosquitoes% 20serve%20as,environment%20in%20shallow%2C%20tundr a%20ponds.) in our world, so I don't think she'd have to venture too far to find some critters.

[hamishspence]

Well, this just went from bad to worse.

Where the hell did Oona get a jar of insects in a polar climate?

Midges are very common quite a long way north - right across the Palearctic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_midge

Whatever biting insects trouble reindeer, would not be at all out of place here.

EDIT: Swordsaged :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Any time now, Roy! Really!

[Gift Jeraff]

Can't believe they're going to beat the main villain already.

[hroþila]

I wonder if Durkon can somehow use the threat of telling Xykon stuff about the discussion they just had as a way to get Redcloak to protect them for the time being. Redcloak didn't say anything that gave away his Plan, and while Xykon would not be happy with the terms actually proposed (I imagine he'd accept nothing but total capitulation), the fact is Redcloak very clearly rejected those terms. So it's not at all obvious how Durkon talking could endanger Redcloak's position. But it's all I got right now.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Wow. This is bad.

I think this is going to be the first time Xykon casts an offensive spell on-panel since Meteor Swuhh. And the MitD isn't here...this is bad.

[Jasdoif]

Can't believe they're going to beat the main villain already.I don't believe they're going to beat the main villain already, either.

[JSSheridan]

Bogus!

Thanks Giant!

[littlebum2002]

Okay, not really a surprise that Xykon was lurking off panel. Wonder how much he learned?

I dont think he was lurking off panel. I think he was in the ravine and saw the head fall off the cliff.


?????

Who comes up with a theory like this? He was literally, canonical eaten by the Snarl.

Not necessarily. We heard a story about him being killed. We did not see it happen. Of course the events probably happened as they were related to us in the story, but the possibility exists that they did not. After all, we already know that the story was wrong on one fact: that the current world is the second one that was created. So maybe the story was wrong about other things as well.

[The Outsider]

Welp. This could have gone better.

You know, the expectation here is that someone is going to swoop in and save these two from what looks like certain doom. And this comic loves to subvert expectations. So, my prediction is that one or both of them is going to be killed/captured, and that the plot is going to center around dealing with that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Of course Roy was right (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1200.html), losing the element of surprise screws Roy's play to take out Xykon rather badly.
But from Durkon's perspective, it was worth a try.

How much of that conversation between (variously) Durkon, Redcloak, Minrah, and Oona did Xykon hear? His reaction to that will be interesting to see.

Oona: nice job, again. :smallsmile:

I'll be sorry to see Minrah die, but it looks like she's down quite a few HP and in over her head.

Giant has surprised us before, we'll see if he does it again.

[kenlund]

From where the Order was when Durkon and Minrah split off, it can't be too difficult for them to see what is going on. I wonder what Roy is going to do? Losing his two clerics is disastrous for the party, but direct engagement without the element of surprise seems likely to bring about a total party wipeout. Especially if the MITD joins in the fight.
I assume this all works out somehow in the greater story arc, but at the moment it was obviously a huge mistake for Roy to trust Clerics who have direct orders from their God. It wasn't sufficient to make Durkon agree to just not use Sending to contact Redcloak.

If there any chance that the Xykon who just appeared is an illusion cast by Elan? Probably not...the comment Xykon made about the dwarf statute was a little too on the nose.

[Lkctgo]

Xykon has entered the building

[JSSheridan]

With Xykon hanging out over that canyon, I'd try greater dispell magic

[Lombard]

Durkon Leroy'd and charged the boss camp, TPW inc

[137beth]

Oh, snap, the big X is here! And something tells me he is less inclined to take prisoners than Redcloak.

[KarlMarx]

Let's hope the cavalry brought cavalry of their own.

I do wonder what the rest of the order is doing. Do we know if they knew about Durkon's attempt to parley?

[mjasghar]

Redcloak looks to be wanting Minrah as a captive - he tries to kill Durkon. Likely because Durkon exposes his sunk cost fallacy.
Whilst we could see a Minrah MitD friendship to parallel OChul, I think it’s unlikely.
But, if she was a prisoner and got talking to the MitD she might have some of her own forceful will rub off. Which is what the MitD is lacking atm to push it to self empowerment.

[Velaryon]

Durkon perfectly illustrated what 'high wisdom, low intelligence" looks like by walking into Team Evil's camp with no exit strategy. I don't see any way this could have blown up worse in his face.

Also, can we take Redcloak's comment to mean that he was aware of O-Chul's presence near Kraagor's Tomb, or simply that he's still expecting the paladin to show up eventually?

[Pory]

"We can heal on tha way ta- " where? The ravine? Are they going to try the old Cleric's Feather Fall (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) :smallconfused: ?

Damn, this is the final book alright, so tense!

[The Pilgrim]

**** finally hit the fan.

[Fyraltari]

If I had to choose I'd definitely want to see more Minrah rather than Durkon; she's relatively unexplored and interesting while I've seen more than enough of him in the past decade plus. But I'm not the one writing the comic.
Okay, I see what you are saying. But the thing is, you don't have to choose. The two of them getting out alive is still on the table.

Can't believe they're going to beat the main villain already.

I don't think anybody believe they will.

[hamishspence]

Also, can we take Redcloak's comment to mean that he was aware of O-Chul's presence near Kraagor's Tomb, or simply that he's still expecting the paladin to show up eventually?

Or Oona eventually reported her showdown here,

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1035.html


and Redcloak's been on the watch for them to show up, ever since.

[Ghosty]

Maybe he is luring them into a false sense of security.

But yea if he had any easy ways out, wind walk, word of recall etc you would have expected him to use them already - talking to Xykon might be his best option, and as Xykon might be one of the only people (maybe the only person) who can get Redcloak to co-operate with him so it is worth a shot anyway to find out what Xykon actually wants in order to give up the plan.

As I see it, about the only entities with the power to YOINK! them away from Xykon are the Unseen Duo. The Fiends might, if it was V at jeopardy. If V were Scrying on the negotiation, with the mind of triggering a spell like Refuge, they're a little late. Would the MITD care enough to unconsciously trigger the Escape! scene again?

I guess the Order could show up and turn this into a meeting engagement. I think they lose that, on paper.

I don't want to get popped by the mods for multiposting---which is why I'm editing this one, but without a quote---but @hamishspence, Oona does mention in the next strip that she tried to bring two humans home for dinner for the MITD, and RC's trancing right there. However, she doesn't elaborate, says she's embarrassed about the whole thing, and won't bring it up again.

Is that enough to clue RC in that O-Chul is there? Or is he still going off of what the MITD came up with in 901: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html ?

[gatemansgc]

I don't think I have ever caught it when the comic has just uploaded. Neat! I wonder how they are going to get out of this.

all we know is they gotta get out of it somehow cause there's a TON more of the last book to go. years worth, even. it's not time for the final battle against xykon yet!

[Ionathus]

Oooooh, boy. Things have just gotten far worse.

So many cool moments here!
Is this the first time we've seen disintegrate in the new art style? Durkon's Hi-Res Skeleton is fantastic!
Xykon is a bit more unpredictable than Redcloak for how he'll respond, but all of the outcomes are worse. Very worried for the two of them now.
As has already been said: Xykon seems to just effortlessly heighten the sense of doom by simply showing up.
I wonder how concerned Redcloak is about these two blabbing anything about The Plan to Big X.



I don't think anybody believe they will.

I do! Go, go, Minrah and Durkon! /s

But for reals, I find it hard to picture a scenario where either of them die here. Durkon because he just spent a whole book dead, and Minrah because like she's gonna get iced to advance his dumb story (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1192.html). Similarly, capture seems like a strange story beat because I don't know if Redcloak would want Xykon to hear anything. I suppose it's possible, though!

My current money's on "both of them get spirited away by Orange and Green."


Or Oona eventually reported her showdown here,

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1035.html


and Redcloak's been on the watch for them to show up, ever since.

I'm pretty sure RC is referencing the paladin as just a member of The Order, the same way the MitD referenced him here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html). Redcloak's just assuming that the paladin is here because Durkon and Minrah have shown up -- not because he knew about them before 10 minutes ago.

EDIT: You ghosted me with a response to your own statement! Damn, you're good!

[hamishspence]

Oona does mention in the next strip that she tried to bring two humans home for dinner for the MITD, and RC's trancing right there. However, she doesn't elaborate, says she's embarrassed about the whole thing, and won't bring it up again.

Is that enough to clue RC in that O-Chul is there? Or is he still going off of what the MITD came up with in 901: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html ?

901 is probably a better bet, admittedly.

[Ghosty]

"We can heal on tha way ta- " where? The ravine? Are they going to try the old Cleric's Feather Fall (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) :smallconfused: ?

Damn, this is the final book alright, so tense!

My guess is using the stone head as material for forming a ramp or slide they can use to rapidly descend down the cliff face. Might've worked too, except for Flying Epic Sorcerer right there to nuke them.

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but could Durkon employ Word of Recall to send both of them to safety?

[KorvinStarmast]

But, if she was a prisoner and got talking to the MitD she might have some of her own forceful will rub off. Which is what the MitD is lacking atm to push it to self empowerment. That's a neat idea in re why Minrah is in the story: to give MiTD a bit of a push. I like that. But I don't see "Death of Durkon, Version 3.5" as being where Giant is taking the story. (Been wrong before, though).

Just a thought but could Durkon employ Word of Recall to send both of them to safety?
In theory, yes.

Word of Recall (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm)

Target: You and touched objects or other willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (harmless, object)
Word of recall teleports you instantly back to your sanctuary when the word is uttered. You must designate the sanctuary when you prepare the spell, and it must be a very familiar place. The actual point of arrival is a designated area no larger than 10 feet by 10 feet. You can be transported any distance within a plane but cannot travel between planes. You can transport, in addition to yourself, any objects you carry, as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels.

[Lord Raziere]

Minrah might die and tell Thor how it went with Redcloak, which might do a thing, but other than that, I'm not sure where this goes yet.

[hungrycrow]

Just a thought but could Durkon employ Word of Recall to send both of them to safety?

Maybe, but Durkon definitely would have used it already instead of trying to slowly escape on foot.

[pendell]

Just a thought but could Durkon employ Word of Recall to send both of them to safety?

If he could, why in the name of the abyss didn't he do it two rounds ago?



But for reals, I find it hard to picture a scenario where either of them die here. Durkon because he just spent a whole book dead, and Minrah because like she's gonna get iced to advance his dumb story. Similarly, capture seems like a strange story beat because I don't know if Redcloak would want Xykon to hear anything. I suppose it's possible, though!


The bare absolute minimum that has to happen is that one of them has to be captured while the other escapes. But if our heroes get away so lightly, I'm going to have to question whether I'm reading OOTS or Adam West's "Batman".


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Crivens]

... Turn Undead?

[FlawedParadigm]

... Turn Undead?

Xykon may be as high as double Durkon's level.

I feel comfortable putting 50 zorkmids on this being a "no."

[Rogan]

... Turn Undead?

I doubt it. Getting turned into an undead was the plot of the last book, it won't repeat itself.

:tongue: :wink:

[Wildstag]

Not that it's at all likely to happen, but I'm hoping the rest of the party has already mobilized and are nearby in cloud form. Before Xykon showed up, they could remain hidden if Durkon had a chance of escape. With the lich present, they'd see the need to engage to save BOTH of their clerics, perhaps leading to another big panel of Roy screaming a name in a righteous fury while falling towards the foe.

Alas, that will not happen, and Durkon will probably be taken alive...

Although, I can see Belkar being the one to initiate to defend Durkon, what with the direction their friendship has gone.

[Malfarian]

New comic is up.

I NEEDED a new comic today ... but this one ... NO!!

OMG all clerics down, not good.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Another method of escape could be Plane Shift. Durkon could have prepared it as a means of removing an enemy efficiently, as seen by his ̶f̶a̶t̶h̶e̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶e̶p̶h̶e̶w̶'̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶s̶i̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶m̶e̶r̶ ̶r̶o̶o̶m̶m̶a̶t̶e̶ cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiancee fate in the battle of the vote. But it'd work here to get out.

Also, he could try talking to Xykon. He's going to ask what's going on, because there's no rush for him, and he'll want to savor the distraction. Durkon could talk he's way out of this. If he's really offering TDO a seat, that eventually means being the fourth pantheon. And every pantheon needs a god of death, right?

[Fincher]

I don't think anybody believe they will.

Minrah rolls fifty natural 20's in a row and one shots Xykons, and his flying bones lodge themselves inside Redcloak. The power of so many natural 20's unleashes a wave of purple quiddity, and the rifts are sealed forevermore. Everyone can go home now.

I mean, that's what I believe will happen.

[pendell]

It won't happen for the reasons I mentioned before, but I would expect the most likely outcome would be to kill Durkon and keep Minrah prisoner, since Minrah speaks basic common and interrogating Durkon means enduring his unintelligible accent :smallamused: .

Actually, I'm really bugged by Durkon's accent. NO ONE except his mum in the Dwarvish lands talks like that. So where did she -- and he -- get it? Are they originally from somewhere else?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Hawk7915]

I've been reading this comic since 2005 and it still surprises me sometimes. I have no idea how they're going to get out of this one now.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe the individual pieces are indestructible!

A call back to the original "uncuttable" atomic theory from Ancient Greece!


Everything else aside, I don't think Durkon is going to see Xykon as being approachable after Redcloak has already turned him down.

I don't think Durkon has good choices here so maybe it is still the "least bad choice". It might even lead to a "let's you and him squabble" between Xykon and Redcloak while the Dwarves go back to their escape plan of running away at no more than 60' per round (30' if the bugs are still blinding Minrah).


Also, can we take Redcloak's comment to mean that he was aware of O-Chul's presence near Kraagor's Tomb, or simply that he's still expecting the paladin to show up eventually?

If nothing else Redcloak knows that O-chul is very persistent.

[hroþila]

Actually, I'm really bugged by Durkon's accent. NO ONE except his mum in the Dwarvish lands talks like that.

Nah, that's not true (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23282335&postcount=1).

[Worldsong]

A call back to the original "uncuttable" atomic theory from Ancient Greece!

If we just keep destroying the statue eventually there'll be parts which can't be destroyed! And THOSE parts will hold the Rift!

I believe in the dream!


I don't think Durkon has good choices here so maybe it is still the "least bad choice". It might even lead to a "let's you and him squabble" between Xykon and Redcloak while the Dwarves go back to their escape plan of running away at no more than 60' per round (30' if the bugs are still blinding Minrah).

Even as a last hope it seems worse than fighting to the end. I mean it is possible that Durkon thinks it's worth a shot, but I'm doubtful.

Granted I'm less doubtful of this than of many things I've been doubtful about regarding this comic.

[Jay R]

Neither cleric has the slightest chance against Xykon , of course, ...

Roy beat Xykon in strip #115 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html), when he was much lower level. Frodo, Sam and Gollum defeated Sauron. A single one-man speedster destroyed the death star. It's just not true that the weaker side has no chance.

Besides, they don't need to win. They merely need to escape.


... as Xykon might be one of the only people (maybe the only person) who can get Redcloak to co-operate with him ...

Given that what Durkon wants Redcloak to do involves messing up a plan Xykon's been working on for thirty years, I really don't see how he's likely to want to help.

[Yes, I know that Xykon's plan is impossible. But if Xykon learns that Redcloak's been lying to him, and planning to betray him, for decades, he's still not going to be too cooperative.]


Durkon perfectly illustrated what 'high wisdom, low intelligence" looks like by walking into Team Evil's camp with no exit strategy.

I think we should wait until he tries to escape before we conclude that he has no escape strategy.


I've been reading this comic since 2005 and it still surprises me sometimes. I have no idea how they're going to get out of this one now.

Exactly. Rich has surprised me any number of times, already, and I expect him to do so with the end of this encounter, too. We don't have to figure out what happens next. And previous experience shows that we aren't likely to guess correctly anyway.

I, for one, am very glad that nobody is good enough to spoil the comic by guessing what will happen in advance.

That's why I stopped guessing. Sit down, relax, and enjoy the view. Rich is driving.

[DreamCreator]

This is starting to look less then ideal for Durkon - but I guess if he is quick thinking he can see about putting real negotiations back on the table.

Also hurrah Xykon is back.

I find this theory plausible and creative.

Maybe Durkon can rapid speed inform Xykon intentionally (or unintentionally) that Redcloak has not been telling him (Xykon) the truth about his (Redcloak's) intentions for the gate.

[Shale]

I wonder how concerned Redcloak is about these two blabbing anything about The Plan to Big X.

I'm thinking that might be their best hope for escape. An innocent "Why are ye so determined to give ultimate power to a goblin god?" would take a lot of focus off the dwarves.

[Ruck]

If there any chance that the Xykon who just appeared is an illusion cast by Elan? Probably not...the comment Xykon made about the dwarf statute was a little too on the nose.

Seems very unlikely-- I'm generally not going to believe Rich is doing something like this that would solely be for the purpose of tricking us, the reader, as opposed to a character in the strip tricking another character.


Also, can we take Redcloak's comment to mean that he was aware of O-Chul's presence near Kraagor's Tomb, or simply that he's still expecting the paladin to show up eventually?


Or Oona eventually reported her showdown here,

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1035.html


and Redcloak's been on the watch for them to show up, ever since.

Or he's still expecting the paladin and the elf (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) to be around here somewhere. (I see someone has already mentioned this.)


Nah, that's not true (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23282335&postcount=1).

I do enjoy how we spend so much time with Durkon (and so relatively few with other dwarves) that it's easy to assume that his accent is standard for all dwarves, and then we get to Dwarven Lands and it turns out that, nah, theirs is still pretty specific / peculiar even there.

[Vessyra]

Durkon mentioned something about, "If we can get outta thar line o' sight, I can-" before being interrupted. Any ideas on what that is? Avoiding a dispel magic on wind walk seems like a possibility, but then Durkon would be saying, "We can (turn into mist)". Maybe he's hoping to hide somehow?
Regardless of the plan, their current position makes getting out of line of sight easier said than done.

[pendell]

Nah, that's not true (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23282335&postcount=1).

Noted, thank you.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shining Wrath]

One round too long, Durkon. Just one round too long.
But Redcloak wants to capture them alive. Can he talk sense into Xykon?
Can anyone possibly rescue them? This requires a real Deus Ex Machina if they get out of here alive and uncaptured.
Or a MitD rescue, although why he'd do that remains unclear.

[pendell]

On a related note, why do the villains bother interrogating high value captives? Kill them, create a free-willed undead from their remains, compel it to tell the truth, add the undead to the army.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Worldsong]

On a related note, why do the villains bother interrogating high value captives? Kill them, create a free-willed undead from their remains, compel it to tell the truth, add the undead to the army.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'd bet that Xykon just finds it more entertaining.

Redcloak... How often have we seen him actually do necromancy stuff? Maybe it just doesn't immediately occur to him.

[Sapphire Guard]

So, what's Xykon's equivalent to the 'cat retrieving hand' spell? He seems to be using it here.

[pendell]

I'd bet that Xykon just finds it more entertaining.

Redcloak... How often have we seen him actually do necromancy stuff? Maybe it just doesn't immediately occur to him.

Well, he did make a lich, at least in start of darkness.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Worldsong]

Well, he did make a lich, at least in start of darkness.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

You know, I really should have seen that coming.

[Reboot]

Durkon mentioned something about, "If we can get outta thar line o' sight, I can-" before being interrupted. Any ideas on what that is? Avoiding a dispel magic on wind walk seems like a possibility, but then Durkon would be saying, "We can (turn into mist)". Maybe he's hoping to hide somehow?
Regardless of the plan, their current position makes getting out of line of sight easier said than done.

I think that was mostly about having a round to get rid of the midgies.

[Debatra]

Most undead don't actually retain their memories from life. Speak With Dead (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html), on the other hand...

[Kantaki]

You go Oona!
Fight them Skitter style!:smallcool:

[StClair]

ohhh dear.

Shouldn't that be "what the Hel", though?

[Rynjin]

Most undead don't actually retain their memories from life. Speak With Dead (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html), on the other hand...

Speak With Dead gives a Will save, and is quite limited in what you can ask.

Anywho, I wonder if maybe Xykon was watching the whole time, and Redcloak knew but couldn't let on. May give a glimmer of hope for Plan Eeace and Love after all.

[Worldsong]

You go Oona!
Fight them Skitter style!:smallcool:

Given that she's not using webs all over the place I'm guessing this is early story Skitter.

[Ionathus]

I'm thinking that might be their best hope for escape. An innocent "Why are ye so determined to give ultimate power to a goblin god?" would take a lot of focus off the dwarves.

Hmm, but would Durkon want to do that? Now I think about it more -- that might endanger Redcloak, whom Durkon wants to keep alive. It's a tricky situation to be sure, but maybe Durkon could inject enough doubt to distract them without getting Redcloak iced for treason against Xykon. Looking forward to seeing what happens next!

[Ginasius]

I have a hunch: the whole Order of the Stick is going to rescue at least one of the dwarves and then they will escape from Xykon by going into one of the already marked dungeons.

"Hey, guys, these dungeons don't have monsters anymore. Maybe we can hide here safely."

[understatement]

So, what's Xykon's equivalent to the 'cat retrieving hand' spell? He seems to be using it here.

It's probably the spell Telekinesis.


Hmm, but would Durkon want to do that? Now I think about it more -- that might endanger Redcloak, whom Durkon wants to keep alive. It's a tricky situation to be sure, but maybe Durkon could inject enough doubt to distract them without getting Redcloak iced for treason against Xykon. Looking forward to seeing what happens next!

Considering Durkon doesn't know how at odds Redcloak and Xykon are at, it might not occur to him to exploit it. And it wouldn't help the dwarves much, either - Xykon can ice them in one round and then go on to deal with Redcloak if need be.

***

At least in 1204, there was two mild assurances: a) Redcloak wouldn't attack a random dwarf on sight, and b) the Order could pull him out if needed, since Redcloak is lower level than Xykon. There's none of that here.

Honestly, besides the voices' intervention, I'm really not sure how Durkon and Minrah can make it out.

[Crusher]

Uh oh. S**t just got real.

[orrion]

Class example of "It Got Worse."



I have a hunch: the whole Order of the Stick is going to rescue at least one of the dwarves and then they will escape from Xykon by going into one of the already marked dungeons.

"Hey, guys, these dungeons don't have monsters anymore. Maybe we can hide here safely."

I'm thinking we had evidence somewhere that the monsters come back.

Otherwise, MITD's method of sabotage doesn't do nearly as much, since they could just peek in the doors to see whether they had monsters or not to determine whether they had already been inside.

[Mido]

And that's the ballgame. Oof. D:

[SpykeMH]

What do you suppose the odds are of Durkon accidentally exposing one of the puppet strings Xykon unknowingly dances on here?

[Canisius]

Thing about the Giant is that he so often surprises. I mean, this could either be another many-strip hostage rescue, an execution (or two, which could also be a celestial hostage situation if the team had any clerics left), or an amazing escape.

My hope is for an amazing escape, but a) it's too early in the book to resolve this sub-plot b) you could run straight into a confrontation between the whole team and Xykon's team c) there are other threads dangling that could be brought to bear.

Whence the paladin? Kinda thinking we may switch to that sub-plot pretty soon.

Frankly, I'm glad that Xykon finally showed up. You knew he would. The tension was killing me.

[TheNecrocomicon]

This is rapidly feeling like the frost giant fight from the last book, where things went from bad to worse to ridiculously overwhelmingly worse in a hurry and just kept going.

If the rest of the Order aren't showing up to shank Xykon in the back right freakin' now, there really is no escape for Durkon and Minrah other than Word of Recall, Plane Shift, or deus-ex-machina.

Put me down as agreeing that the Order aren't going to beat Team Evil this early. Something will happen to break up or interrupt the fight. Probably, I would think, something like the IFCC landing on the scene with their oh-so-vaguely-promised "artifact" and "vessel".

[b_jonas]

On a related note, why do the villains bother interrogating high value captives? Kill them, create a free-willed undead from their remains, compel it to tell the truth, add the undead to the army. Interesting. Though I think that would give some time, because they can't do that until nightfall.

Anyway, what I think will happen is simpler. Durkon doesn't need any miraculous rescue, because Redcloak wants to capture him alive. So Durkon will be captured, which is good for us because he'll be right where he wants to be, talking to Redcloak. Minrah might die, or she might survive for a bit longer.

[Olinser]

This is rapidly feeling like the frost giant fight from the last book, where things went from bad to worse to ridiculously overwhelmingly worse in a hurry and just kept going.

If the rest of the Order aren't showing up to shank Xykon in the back right freakin' now, there really is no escape for Durkon and Minrah other than Word of Recall, Plane Shift, or deus-ex-machina.

Put me down as agreeing that the Order aren't going to beat Team Evil this early. Something will happen to break up or interrupt the fight. Probably, I would think, something like the IFCC landing on the scene with their oh-so-vaguely-promised "artifact" and "vessel".

Put me down for thinking that the still-unknown Paladin kidnappers will add a pair of kidnapped dwarves.

Most likely by Xykon/Redcloak knocking them out, turning away to argue about what to do with them, and then realizing that they're gone.

[Marillion]

When Oona said "Okie dokie, Oona is doing the thing!", it brought to mind Uma Thurman's hilariously bad Swedish accent in The Producers, and I will forevermore hear Uma as Oona.


Now Ulla belt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeBfVrJ2UiY

In other news: Things go from bad to worst. I'm on the edge of my computer chair waiting for the next update!

[Shale]

Hmm, but would Durkon want to do that? Now I think about it more -- that might endanger Redcloak, whom Durkon wants to keep alive. It's a tricky situation to be sure, but maybe Durkon could inject enough doubt to distract them without getting Redcloak iced for treason against Xykon. Looking forward to seeing what happens next!

I don't think he'd do it on purpose, but Redcloak never mentioned he was running a con on Xykon. Durkon has no reason to think he's anything but a willing partner in The Plan, as far as I can recall.

[BarnZarn]

Zhu li, do the thing!

Yay, ATLA


Asides from the reference, I have three theories:

They get rescued because the rest of the OOTS show up, or the mysterious voice (who is totally not Serini) or the MITD or the paladins or something along these lines show up
They convince Redcloak and they fight off Xykon with Redcloak (unlikely)
They get captured and/or killed.

[Riftwolf]

Don't know about anyone else but I'm wondering if game theory will win the day here;
Durkon could raise his hands and say 'take us prisoner and ill tell you what I know and why we're here!'
This would at least delay Xykon for a few seconds, and could possibly start an argument between Redcloak (who doesn't want Xykon to know what the dwarves are doing there) and Xykon.
Yeh I know I'm grasping at straws but there's got to be *something* that stops this escalating this early in the arc.

[Hatu]

Wow. I'm trying to figure if this could be any worse if Durkon HADN'T planned for it.

So far, the only difference I can see is that Minrah would still be alive to help the party. :-(



Put me down for thinking that the still-unknown Paladin kidnappers will add a pair of kidnapped dwarves.

Most likely by Xykon/Redcloak knocking them out, turning away to argue about what to do with them, and then realizing that they're gone.
That seems plausible enough. It's about the only thing that could get our dwarves out of this that doesn't involve repeating the "dead PC" or "MitD tricks" plotlines.

-H

[Yuri-Os]

First post here, may as well get my stupid ideas out while I lack a reputation.

Maybe it's MitD shapeshifted into Xykon.

[woweedd]

****. I apologize for violating the profanity rules, but that feels like the only reasonable response to this situation.

[Jacky720]

First post here, may as well get my stupid ideas out while I lack a reputation.

Maybe it's MitD shapeshifted into Xykon.
{scrubbed} because it only works if MITD has mastered all his monstery powers as well as impersonation of someone completely unlike him, which is a crazy huge leap to make.

Reminds me of:
:elan: Maybe it's just another illusion?
:belkar: Nah, that would mean we weren't totally boned.
—Strip 901 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html)

ETA: Those faces don't really work, do they?

[Harbajar]

Oh. Holy. Hell.


Oh UnHoly Hell - but alignment is subjective :smallbiggrin:

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMMNOMNONM... wait? ... oh my goodness.

Next!

[KorvinStarmast]

Jacky, I think we could have been a little warmer in greeting our new particpant.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} because it only works if MITD has mastered all his monstery powers as well as impersonation of someone completely unlike him, which is a crazy huge leap to make.

I would like to welcome our new poster

Hello, Yuri-O's, glad you joined us. :smallsmile:

Not seeing MiTD beginning to talk like Xykon, nor reveal himself without permission. He's had opportunities galore and has never yet broken lurk.

Also, I just noticed that in the last panel, Minrah has one eye closed and one eye open. It gives her an almost quizzical look. I like that kind of attention to detail. :smallcool:

[Jacky720]

Jacky, I think we could have been a little warmer in greeting our new particpant.
Yeah, that was harsh. Sorry. To Yuri-Os.

(Of course, your idea is still a possibility. {scrubbed})

(I still sound like a jerk with this, don't I...)

[Wowlock]

Fewer times have the villain of the story ever seemed so... impending doom-y

I mean, they are Impending Doom-y for themselves really. They cannot succeed with or without the Order's interference. If they somehow managed to beat the party, the watching Gods will decide ''well that failed. Blowing the world up it is.'' So Xykon and Redcloak, along with their goals are gone.

[Peelee]

First post here, may as well get my stupid ideas out while I lack a reputation.

Maybe it's MitD shapeshifted into Xykon.
This isn't relevant to anything, but I choose to believe you are a cereal based on a Red Alert 2 villain.

****. I apologize for violating the profanity rules, but that feels like the only reasonable response to this situation.
I should point out that if the filter catches them and you aren't overusing them, you're not breaking the profanity rules. Which makes me happy.:smallwink:

[MReav]

Did Redcloak forget Roy's name (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) or is he just so used to using descriptors because Xykon is so pathologically incapable of remembering names (or at least, trolls people by pretending he's incapable of remembering names).

[Olinser]

Did Redcloak forget Roy's name (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) or is he just so used to using descriptors because Xykon is so pathologically incapable of remembering names (or at least, trolls people by pretending he's incapable of remembering names).

He's currently talking to somebody that has absolutely no idea who 'Greenhilt' is, so 'the paladin and the one with the green sword' are pretty good descriptors to be on the lookout for.

[Kornaki]

He remembered greenhilt's name last time, but not what his plot was.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html

It would be a little surprising if he had forgotten his name, but it's also possible he never thought greenhilt was his actual name, just a nickname.

[danielxcutter]

...Maybe Durkon escapes but Minrah gets captured? The “talks with MitD” theory would be right then... I dunno even, I just hope this doesn’t screw things over too badly.

[Ionathus]

...Maybe Durkon escapes but Minrah gets captured? The “talks with MitD” theory would be right then... I dunno even, I just hope this doesn’t screw things over too badly.

I suppose Minrah could talk to the MitD, but it feels like that role still belongs to O-Chul. She'd kinda be stepping on his territory if she became the one to prompt MitD's heel-face turn. Especially since O-Chul is (hopefully!) nearby.

[Krakius]

I'd say . . . the rest of the Order arrives to bail out Durkon and Minrah, there's a big team battle between the Order of the Stick and Team Evil (before Team Evil inevitably turns on itself), they manage to escape somehow but the element of surprise is ruined, and Roy is pissed at Durkon.

[bunsen_h]

It was really nice knowing these dwarves. RIP from ??-1184.

Durkon: 1129-1184, 1184-1184, 1184-1184. If he dies again here, which I think unlikely.


I dont think he was lurking off panel. I think he was in the ravine and saw the head fall off the cliff.

Xykon's comment seems to imply that there was some reason why they hadn't knocked the head off the statue before.

I'm going to go with "Redcloak knows that doing so will trigger some effect which targets the last person who caused damage" and that Xykon's holding the hot potato, so to speak, because of whatever negative-energy thing he's doing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Even if it is somehow his remains it's been explicitly mentioned a number of times the Snarl will destroy your soul. It did the same to Soon's wife. They were also high-level adventurers so if they were capable of bringing him back to life they would have done that.

He is dead. Permanently. There is no secret Kraagor Resurrection plot twist and speculating over whether the statue is his corpse and/or he's been secretly not dead is silly.

You are misinterpreting the post. The theory was that Kraagor's Gate was hidden in the statue instead of behind the doors and the tribute to Kraagor's belief in strength via combat.

[bunsen_h]

You are misinterpreting the post. The theory was that Kraagor's Gate was hidden in the statue instead of behind the doors and the tribute to Kraagor's belief in strength via combat.

I do recall seeing someone suggest that the statue might be Kraagor's petrified remains. Probably coming out of the idea that Kraagor's Gate was hidden in the statue, and the stuff about where Girard's Rift was hidden (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html).

[P. G. Macer]

I know I’m late to the party, but OOOOHHHHHHHH SNAP! Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

[Lex]

I suppose Minrah could talk to the MitD, but it feels like that role still belongs to O-Chul. She'd kinda be stepping on his territory if she became the one to prompt MitD's heel-face turn. Especially since O-Chul is (hopefully!) nearby.Agreed. Plus, the MitD aleeady saved the Order at Girard's gate and Redcloack might suspect he became too attached to the paladin, so he might prevent it to get in contact with another prisoner.

Personally I think at this point the best options is for the dwarves to be saved by the same group who captured O-Chul and Lien. This way, they'll be safe (?) without making their escape look too easy, and we'll have the paladins back in the story. I'd hate if the party remains split for long, though.

[Anitar]

I'd hate if the party remains split for long, though.

It's already been split for 10-11 pages now. How long is "long" in this context?

[Lex]

It's already been split for 10-11 pages now. How long is "long" in this context?I don't have a specific number...a third or half of the book, maybe?

[Ace of Rogues]

I just have to say, regarding the "reveal to Xykon that Redcloak has a plan to double-cross him" theory, I'm pretty Xykon's response would be a resounding "Uh, durr!!!". The fact that he had Tsukiko research the ritual way back and then just disavowed her and quickly dropped the subject after Redcloak killed her suggests to me he's well aware that Redcloak's working an angle on him. What could be interesting though is if he then goes on a rant about how stupid Redcloak's being in the situation and how he's too much of a coward to actually turn on him which makes Redcloak take the offer after all just to spite him. It would make a great twist and provide a good reason for Redcloak to at least ostensibly join Our Heroes without just making a spontaneous Heel-Face-Turn. He's not turning against Xykon for any moral reason, or even the good of goblin-kind. No, he's just the dog finally biting back.

[Xlsfd]

That's not good at all. Durkon and Minrah might have been able to escape from Oona and Redcloak, but not a Level 21+ lich.

[CriticalFailure]

My thinking is that Xykon has had a plan to turn on Redcloak after the ritual and take the power of the snarl for himself for a very long time. I’m guessing Xykon is suspicious because he knows that Redcloak knows he wouldn’t want to share power, and this assumes Redcloak must have his own plan or angle. But he doesn’t know why Redcloak seems not to care.

[danielxcutter]

That's not good at all. Durkon and Minrah might have been able to escape from Oona and Redcloak, but not a Level 21+ lich.

According to his apparent feat selection, it is entirely possible and perhaps even the most likely scenario that Xykon has at least 26 levels in sorcerer, so... yeah.


My thinking is that Xykon has had a plan to turn on Redcloak after the ritual and take the power of the snarl for himself for a very long time. I’m guessing Xykon is suspicious because he knows that Redcloak knows he wouldn’t want to share power, and this assumes Redcloak must have his own plan or angle. But he doesn’t know why Redcloak seems not to care.

I personally read that as that he saw the statue head falling down the cliff, and flew up to see what was going on.

[Lemarc]

I just have to say, regarding the "reveal to Xykon that Redcloak has a plan to double-cross him" theory, I'm pretty Xykon's response would be a resounding "Uh, durr!!!". The fact that he had Tsukiko research the ritual way back and then just disavowed her and quickly dropped the subject after Redcloak killed her suggests to me he's well aware that Redcloak's working an angle on him. What could be interesting though is if he then goes on a rant about how stupid Redcloak's being in the situation and how he's too much of a coward to actually turn on him which makes Redcloak take the offer after all just to spite him. It would make a great twist and provide a good reason for Redcloak to at least ostensibly join Our Heroes without just making a spontaneous Heel-Face-Turn. He's not turning against Xykon for any moral reason, or even the good of goblin-kind. No, he's just the dog finally biting back.

Xykon would assume Redcloak is planning to betray him, that's standard practice for the 2IC of any evil organisation as he well knows. But Durkon knows that the Plan isn't what Xykon thinks it is, and Xykon might be slightly ticked off if he finds out he's spent thirty years on a project with no possible benefit to him whatsoever.

[LordSith]

Zhu li, do the thing!
Zhu Li, always a good joke.

THanks for the smile it brought.

[Ghosty]

First post here, may as well get my stupid ideas out while I lack a reputation.

Maybe it's MitD shapeshifted into Xykon.

Welcome to this part of The Playground. They usually don't greet newcomers with profanity.

Your post is making me wonder though: Just where is the MITD? Asleep? He's sociable, and has to have noticed that every other member of Team Evil is off doing something else. He hasn't enough curiosity to see what that is?

Moreover, Durkon's Hammer is shooting electricity and is delivering big enough blows to shatter stone. Is Minrah's voice amplified when her size was too? All of that isn't making enough noise to bring the village---and the MITD---out to see what's going on?

[RickDaily12]

:smallsigh:

Look, Durkon and Minrah don't have to escape if the author requires them not to.

But it's actually a little frustrating that every time Redcloak has casted a Disintegrate, even at long range, it always hits. Whereas Vaarsuvius has had so many misses, multiple ones at point blank range, that hir use of it is unreliable at best.

It's a powerful spell, and it's been portrayed to be a bit buggy- but only when used by protagonists.

[dancrilis]

:smallsigh:

Look, Durkon and Minrah don't have to escape if the author requires them not to.

But it's actually a little frustrating that every time Redcloak has casted a Disintegrate, even at long range, it always hits. Whereas Vaarsuvius has had so many misses, multiple ones at point blank range, that hir use of it is unreliable at best.

It's a powerful spell, and it's been portrayed to be a bit buggy- but only when used by protagonists.

Rays don't suffer from range penalties and in fairness to Vaarsuvius they have actually managed to disintegrate living/undead creatures with it - a feat that to memory still eludes Redcloak.

[RickDaily12]

I suppose a 17th Cleric does boast a better BAB than a 16th Wizard, but that's what, a difference of +4 and Dex difference? Definitively we only know that it's roughly a 20% hit improvement on a d20.

And yeah, Redcloak has failed to ash anyone (barring unread bonus strips I don't know about), but that's because he seems to target high Fortitude savers exclusively.

Vaarsuvius' list of victims include commoners and hurt young dragons (disintgration happens regardless of save at 0 HP)

Meh. A saved Disintegrate still does more damage than a missed one, which apparently only V seems to do.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Durkon: "Thor...I guess I'm sort of back a bit early."

[Particle_Man]

Xykon would assume Redcloak is planning to betray him, that's standard practice for the 2IC of any evil organisation as he well knows. But Durkon knows that the Plan isn't what Xykon thinks it is, and Xykon might be slightly ticked off if he finds out he's spent thirty years on a project with no possible benefit to him whatsoever.

2IC = ?

I am unfamiliar with that one.

Wait, Second In Command? Is that it?

[gerryq]

Given that she's not using webs all over the place I'm guessing this is early story Skitter.

I didn't get "fight them Skitter style" (the only Skitter that occured to me was a monster in an Android roguelike) until your response!

As for Xycon, Redcloak believes he is manipulable like all undead, but even Redcloak knows that Xycon is intelligent (when he chooses to be, and that is a choice you make every time) and unpredictable. Redcloak may be the person most unhappy that Xycon has shown up.

[Lemarc]

2IC = ?

I am unfamiliar with that one.

Wait, Second In Command? Is that it?

Yes, sorry, Second In Command. I was referencing

Xykon's experience at helldeathdoomfire volcano, when his master promoted people saying they would inevitably betray him, and when Xykon talked with Ydranna and mentioned she should be plotting the Unholy Master's death, to which she replied she'd do it after lunch.

[bunsen_h]

Xykon's comment seems to imply that there was some reason why they hadn't knocked the head off the statue before.

I'm going to go with "Redcloak knows that doing so will trigger some effect which targets the last person who caused damage" and that Xykon's holding the hot potato, so to speak, because of whatever negative-energy thing he's doing.

Oona: Bony man is to be putting statue head down, gently, please. Remembering what Oona said about curse?

:xykon: Blah blah blah curse blah. In one earhole, out the other.

Oona: Bugbear legend says, if statue is damaged, monsters come out to avenge.

:xykon: Like I'm gonna worry about some legend.

Large picture of canyon, all doors opening.

[Hague]

I mean, Xykon gonna be asking some questions. All Durkon has to do is tell Xykon what he told Redcloak and X is suddenly gonna wonder if/why his second is plotting against him with the good guys and making a decision without asking him first.

Xykon naturally, likes existence, and might be less willing to gamble his existence than Redcloak

[dancrilis]

I mean, Xykon gonna be asking some questions. All Durkon has to do is tell Xykon what he told Redcloak and X is suddenly gonna wonder if/why his second is plotting against him with the good guys and making a decision without asking him first.

Xykon naturally, likes existence, and might be less willing to gamble his existence than Redcloak

Durkon doesn't know that though - for all he knows Xykon and Redcloak are as good friends as himself and Roy, it is conceivable that a lich would be helping a goblin achieve better treatment because he believes in the cause (undead perhaps suffer worse from adventurers then goblins do after all - and he was well aware that many of them were willing to end the world for a better future one).

Still I think his best option might be talking to Xykon - if he had magic to immediately escape he likely would have already used it.

In theory Thor's plan could go ahead with Xykon being the divinely appointed king of the world with the goblins having a divinely granted homeland and narratively Roy could be the plucky hero seeking to take down the lich - kindof like he is now, everyone gets what they want with this plan.

[Worldsong]

I kind of want to say that any plan which involves Xykon getting what he wants is a bad plan.

[Ghosty]

...Also, he could try talking to Xykon. He's going to ask what's going on, because there's no rush for him, and he'll want to savor the distraction. Durkon could talk he's way out of this. If he's really offering TDO a seat, that eventually means being the fourth pantheon. And every pantheon needs a god of death, right?

In another series, from another author, I could totally see this being Xykon's fate. Anything to avoid the big fire down below, right? I doubt though the Giant has anything positive in mind for Xykon at the end of all of this. And I doubt very much Xykon has the sense of duty that job requires, though I may be influenced there by Pratchett's Death.

Still. I wanted to bump it, as I thought it was a neat sounding idea.

[Krakius]

Xykon's comment seems to imply that there was some reason why they hadn't knocked the head off the statue before.

I'm going to go with "Redcloak knows that doing so will trigger some effect which targets the last person who caused damage" and that Xykon's holding the hot potato, so to speak, because of whatever negative-energy thing he's doing.

He was probably just saving it for later.

[The MunchKING]

Whereas Vaarsuvius has had so many misses, multiple ones at point blank range, that hir use of it is unreliable at best.

Weren't most of V's misses when she was severely trance-deprived though? I remember they were explicitly calling that out as being a penalty.

[bunsen_h]

Weren't most of V's misses when she was severely trance-deprived though? I remember they were explicitly calling that out as being a penalty.

I don't know about most of the misses, but they did repeatedly here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) and here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0626.html), and trance deprivation was called out here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) as a cause for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

My thinking is that Xykon has had a plan to turn on Redcloak after the ritual and take the power of the Snarl for himself for a very long time. He's been around long enough to know how to do a backstab.
I personally read that as that he saw the statue head falling down the cliff, and flew up to see what was going on. Seems reasonable.
It's a powerful spell, and it's been portrayed to be a bit buggy- but only when used by protagonists. Its power varies with narrative requirement, just like Hilgya's will save against Durkula's dominate ability.

Oona: Bony man is to be putting statue head down, gently, please. Remembering what Oona said about curse?
:xykon: Blah blah blah curse blah. In one earhole, out the other.
Oona: Bugbear legend says, if statue is damaged, monsters come out to avenge.
:xykon: Like I'm gonna worry about some legend.
Large picture of canyon, all doors opening. That would be cool.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not sure if Minrah is less terrified than Durkon because the bugs are distracting her, or if she just hasn't recognized this magic guy as the "Zykon" they're here to not get murderized by.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh.

That's bad.

EDIT


:smallsigh:

Look, Durkon and Minrah don't have to escape if the author requires them not to.

But it's actually a little frustrating that every time Redcloak has casted a Disintegrate, even at long range, it always hits. Whereas Vaarsuvius has had so many misses, multiple ones at point blank range, that hir use of it is unreliable at best.

It's a powerful spell, and it's been portrayed to be a bit buggy- but only when used by protagonists.

On the other hand, most people that Redcloak has tried to disintegrate survived and eventually recovered all their HP (eg Hinjo). Whilta lot of beings Vaarsuvius outright missed ended up dead anyway.

[FlawedParadigm]

Y'know, it belatedly occurs to me that the real danger here isn't anything that could be done to the dwarves.

It's Xykon seeing Redcloak talking to good guys and Xykon trying to axe Redcloak on the spot.

The good guys' plan goes sort of sideways at best if Redcloak is offed...and if it's done in a non-resurrectable way...

[GreatWyrmGold]

...Or, Minrah could have been introduced to the story to actually do something, and that wouldn't be a waste.
It seems like there's a contingent of the forums who considers any character introduced after Blood Runs in the Family or so irrelevant and pointless, and any plot points they directly affect bad for wasting time on characters deemed irrelevant and pointless.



... Turn Undead?
"B for effort, F for creativity."



Shouldn't that be "what the Hel", though?
Depends, are they talking about the goddess or the plane? (The Nine Hells of Baator, or some non-copyright-infringing equivalent, exist in this setting.)



I just have to say, regarding the "reveal to Xykon that Redcloak has a plan to double-cross him" theory, I'm pretty Xykon's response would be a resounding "Uh, durr!!!".
"Show of hands, who here isn't planning to defeat or betray me in some way?"
Oona and Greyview raise a hand/paw
"Really?"
beat
Greyview lowers paw



On the other hand, most people that Redcloak has tried to disintegrate survived and eventually recovered all their HP (eg Hinjo). Whilta lot of beings Vaarsuvius outright missed ended up dead anyway.
It's like a weird twist on Stormtrooper Syndrome. See, Imperial Stormtroopers, for all their training, only ever aim at characters they need to miss*, while the good guys (almost) only ever shoot at things people they're allowed to hit and kill (which they do).
Here, the bad guys are allowed to hit and the good guys to miss, but the end results are surprisingly similar.

*Aside from some mass battle scenes and a bunch of off-screen attacks



Roy beat Xykon in strip #115 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html), when he was much lower level. Frodo, Sam and Gollum defeated Sauron. A single one-man speedster destroyed the death star. It's just not true that the weaker side has no chance.
1. Those were only dramatic because they were unlikely. It's a bard's one-in-a-million chance, but still.
2. Those protagonisty types had something in their favor. A bit of hubris with an active snarl portal thingy, exploiting the Dark Lord's one weakness (and also being below contempt), a minor chink in the armor that the Empire didn't bother finding a solution to...hubris is a common element.
3. Xykon's no stranger to hubris, but he'd have to hubris it up pretty bad at this point!


I think we should wait until he tries to escape before we conclude that he has no escape strategy.
What's he been doing for the past four comics? A traditional dwarven prayer-dance?



On a related note, why do the villains bother interrogating high value captives? Kill them, create a free-willed undead from their remains, compel it to tell the truth, add the undead to the army.
Most undead don't actually retain their memories from life. Speak With Dead (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html), on the other hand...
Living beings have fewer obstacles. You're not limited in the questions you can ask, for instance, which means follow-up questions and smartass answers aren't a complete waste of time. (And you can't just cast the spell again—you're limited in how often you can use the spell on the same corpse.)
Living prisoners have drawbacks, too, but it's easier to convert a living prisoner to speak with dead fodder than vise versa.

[Grey Watcher]

It seems like there's a contingent of the forums who considers any character introduced after Blood Runs in the Family or so irrelevant and pointless, and any plot points they directly affect bad for wasting time on characters deemed irrelevant and pointless.

That's nothing new. The only thing that really changes is where the cutoff is.

[Peelee]

It's like a weird twist on Stormtrooper Syndrome. See, Imperial Stormtroopers, for all their training, only ever aim at characters they need to miss*, while the good guys (almost) only ever shoot at things people they're allowed to hit and kill (which they do).
Here, the bad guys are allowed to hit and the good guys to miss, but the end results are surprisingly similar.

*Aside from some mass battle scenes and a bunch of off-screen attacks


https://miro.medium.com/max/1000/0*UTeCX_JQBPI4nxCm.png

I kid, of course.

[danielxcutter]

You messed up the image link, Peelee.

[Particle_Man]

I didn't get "fight them Skitter style"

I thought is was an abbreviation of “mosquito” myself.

[Worldsong]

I'm just glad there's people here who've read WORM.

Honestly the story kind of got strange after a while though.

[Quizatzhaderac]

"We can heal on tha way ta- " where? The ravine? Are they going to try the old Cleric's Feather Fall (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) :smallconfused: ?It also looks to me like they are planning to jump/climb into the ravine.

Maybe shift back to vapor form while falling?

With Xykon hanging out over that canyon, I'd try greater dispell magicThat would be funny. I wonder if Rich would make Xykon do the Willy Coyote thing?


all we know is they gotta get out of it somehow cause there's a TON more of the last book to go. years worth, even. it's not time for the final battle against xykon yet!Well, unless this suddenly turns into DBZ, in which case the final battle could take years.

However, Xykon is physically incapable of constipation.

Durkon doesn't know that though.....
Also, Durkon may not know that Xykon is a human skeleton. He might be a goblin lich.
And I doubt very much Xykon has the sense of duty that job requires, though I may be influenced there by Pratchett's Death.The job in D&D is basically the exact opposite of the Discworld job.

Really, D&D gods of dead are more gods of undeath.


Depends, are they talking about the goddess or the plane? (The Nine Hells of Baator, or some non-copyright-infringing equivalent, exist in this setting."Nine hells" is public domain and "Baator" could easily be replaced with another gibberish word.

"Show of hands, who here isn't planning to defeat or betray me in some way?"
Oona and Greyview raise a hand/paw
If bone man dies horrible death, life with Oona would not be bad, yes?Mayyyyyyybe Oona isn't being completely hypothetical?

[Grey Watcher]

You messed up the image link, Peelee.

You could say that he missed!

[Laserlight]

I'm assuming MitD is about to show up and say "What was that about TDO? Because, that's me. So let's go over it again?"

[Cazero]

It seems like there's a contingent of the forums who considers any character introduced after Blood Runs in the Family or so irrelevant and pointless, and any plot points they directly affect bad for wasting time on characters deemed irrelevant and pointless.Kudzu. Their arguments are invalid.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That would be funny. I wonder if Rich would make Xykon do the Willy Coyote thing?


Preferably while also including the Goofy Yell.

[Fyraltari]

Also, Durkon may not know that Xykon is a human skeleton. He might be a goblin lich.

No fangs..

[Alcore]

Durkon...

Hit him. Unlike a certain human you have the exact weapon to bypass his DR. You're the only one with such a weapon.

[danielxcutter]

Durkon...

Hit him. Unlike a certain human you have the exact weapon to bypass his DR. You're the only one with such a weapon.

This is true, but between Xykon's likely high AC and being both outnumbered and outgunned, running away really is the best solution. Though smacking him in the face once isn't a bad idea, no, if only to show readers less familiar with the rules that it works if it hits.

Actually Xykon's probably going to mark Durkon exclusively, now that I think of it, because he barely even remembers he got killed by Roy but does know that magical blunt weapons do more damage to him.

[DavidBV]

The OotS is close by, so it's unlikely this can end in a long captivity-subplot. The Order, ready or not, is likely coming right away to aid (or eventually, rescue) their dwarves. Not only to help their friends, but because this time fighting is THE plan. This time they can't destroy the Gate, they're here to fight the villains.

And even if the clerics are down, I believe their chances are 50/50. Unless I am mistaken, Team Evil has been pushing through several "doors" earlier in the day and is probably depleted of spell slots by this point. It's 3 weary spellcasters+wolf vs 4+Elan. If Roy can really disrupt one spellcaster, they may even have the upper hand, actually.

Of course if I'm mistaken and Team Evil is fully rested, they're toast without the clerics. And if they ARE exhausted and somehow the dwarves are not disabled and are also a part of the battle, then the OotS would be the clear favorite to win.

Finally, of course, someone may intervene to prevent the clash from happening or to decide its outcome, either the "mysterious voices" or MitD.

[Lex]

I don't think talking with Xykon would be a wise idea. In the worst case, Xykon might kill Redcloack for his betrayal and then Thor's plan is screwed. In the best case, Durkon might be able to escape thanks for the distraction but any subsequent attempt to negotiate with Redcloack would have a huge penaly if not outright impossible.
We also know that Redcloack will try to kill him on the spot if he tries to spill the beans about the Plan to Xykon. In his perspective, it's better to make the loch (more) suspicious and then try to bluff him rather than being exposed as a traitor.

[BaronOfHell]

I really didn't expect we'd get to see Xykon during Durkon's attempt of diplomacy. Now that he's here, I have to say, Xykon really gives off a "you're doomed" vibe.

I could imagine the party saving Durkon & Minrah when Xykon hadn't gotten involved yet, now it might not be that simple.

[faustin]

In the best case, Durkon might be able to escape thanks for the distraction but any subsequent attempt to negotiate with Redcloack would have a huge penaly if not outright impossible.



Redcloack tried to murder Durkon in the middle of the previous negotiation. At this point I don´t think either dwarf cares much about his feelings.

[Worldsong]

Redcloack tried to murder Durkon in the middle of the previous negotiation. At this point I don´t think either dwarf cares much about his feelings.

It's less about Redcloak's feelings and more that Durkon still has the mission to convince Redcloak to help out with sealing the rifts.

The fact that it didn't work the first time around doesn't mean the mission is off.

[Mr. Demiurge]

I don't think talking with Xykon would be a wise idea. In the worst case, Xykon might kill Redcloack for his betrayal and then Thor's plan is screwed. In the best case, Durkon might be able to escape thanks for the distraction but any subsequent attempt to negotiate with Redcloack would have a huge penaly if not outright impossible.

If Xykon learns about Redcloak's plan, that plan is burned. If the plan is burned and Redcloak survives Xykon's retribution, Redcloak's only obvious options are to find a replacement epic-level arcane magic user willing to work with him to keep the original plan going (not gonna happen) or start considering a deal with Durkon again.

If anything, I'd say after that any further negotiation with Redcloak would start with Durkon in a considerably stronger negotiating position. Redcloak might be pissed off, but what's the alternative if Xykon is no longer willing to play along with the original plan?

[Lex]

If Xykon learns about Redcloak's plan, that plan is burned. If the plan is burned and Redcloak survives Xykon's retribution, Redcloak's only obvious options are to find a replacement epic-level arcane magic user willing to work with him to keep the original plan going (not gonna happen) or start considering a deal with Durkon again.

If anything, I'd say after that any further negotiation with Redcloak would start with Durkon in a considerably stronger negotiating position. Redcloak might be pissed off, but what's the alternative if Xykon is no longer willing to play along with the original plan?
If the Order is in an absolute position of power, like they have captured Redcloack and seized the mantle, I can see that happening. Otherwise I think he wouldn't consider them trustworthy enough to negotiate with, even if that means delaying the Plan for decades until he finds another ally.

[pendell]

Ironically, Xykon's arrival raises the probability that both Durkon and Minrah will be taken prisoner. Xykon may want both prisoners alive if for no other reason than to know why Redcloak is so anxious to kill at least one of them. Also, if he's bored he may think living captives taken for his amusement is better than two dead enemies.

I don't think dungeon crawling has left him nearly as bored as he was in Gobbotopia, but he's still faced with the problem that he can no longer experience the pleasures of the flesh. If the captives offer more amusement alive than dead, he may just keep them alive for the moment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Goblin_Priest]

I was really expecting a more elaborate escape plan than 'legging it'.

Although I still love the interactions between Redcloak and Oona. It's nice that Redcloak finally has someone who isn't either outright unpleasant or submissive.

Not to mention dwarves are slower than everyone else on pannel, who at have at least 30ft speed (as opposed to their 20ft), with Grayview being even faster.

[Riftwolf]

I'm wondering if D&M somehow finagle a running away into Monster Hollow. It'd be interesting to see what a dwarf makes of the interior (if, somehow, Serini had made the Dungeon navigable only to those with stonecunning).
In any case, I think things will de-escalate within the next few pages, simply because revealing Redcloak to Xykon at this point screws up so many other things going on in the story.

[Ace of Rogues]

Regarding the whole "inevitable betrayal" between Xykon and Redcloak, I just realized there's a factor that we need to consider: Redcloak has Xykon's phylactery. I don't know the exact mechanics of how they work in DnD, but Xykon doesn't seem particularly attuned to it considering how easily it got lost and was the swapped out, so it's probably safe to assume that Redcloak is keeping it on his person and chipping away at the protective enchantments off panel. If Xykon discovers how the ritual works and tries to call it quits and/or take his frustration out on Redcloak, Redcloak will probably pull out the phylactery and ask just how badly Xykon wants to stay in the game. If that happens, I look forward to hearing what Xykon's answer is.

[Sebastian]

I'd bet that Xykon just finds it more entertaining.

Redcloak... How often have we seen him actually do necromancy stuff? Maybe it just doesn't immediately occur to him.

He made the three Xykon's decoy during Azure City's siege.

[Fyraltari]

Regarding the whole "inevitable betrayal" between Xykon and Redcloak, I just realized there's a factor that we need to consider: Redcloak has Xykon's phylactery. I don't know the exact mechanics of how they work in DnD, but Xykon doesn't seem particularly attuned to it considering how easily it got lost and was the swapped out, so it's probably safe to assume that Redcloak is keeping it on his person and chipping away at the protective enchantments off panel. If Xykon discovers how the ritual works and tries to call it quits and/or take his frustration out on Redcloak, Redcloak will probably pull out the phylactery and ask just how badly Xykon wants to stay in the game. If that happens, I look forward to hearing what Xykon's answer is.
:xykon: Go ahead. [...] Thing is, my soul isn't in there right now. Smashing it won't do a thing to me. That phylactery is just a pricey bauble unless you destroy me first.

[ManuelSacha]

He made the three Xykon's decoy during Azure City's siege.

Sooo... Start of Darkness, the decoys, and controlling the goth girls's wights.
That's thrice.

[Fyraltari]

Sooo... Start of Darkness, the decoys, and controlling the goth girls's wights.
That's thrice.

He also made a bunch of ghouls as well as an undead dragon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html).

[Riftwolf]

:xykon: Go ahead. [...] Thing is, my soul isn't in there right now. Smashing it won't do a thing to me. That phylactery is just a pricey bauble unless you destroy me first.

Just a random thought; has this always been the case? Did earlier/later editions have Lich phylacteries as potential non-combat encounters?

[TheNecrocomicon]

:xykon: Go ahead. [...] Thing is, my soul isn't in there right now. Smashing it won't do a thing to me. That phylactery is just a pricey bauble unless you destroy me first.

On the contrary, destroying the phylactery does do something productive: it robs Xykon of his mortal safety net -- kind of like the objective of destroying Voldemort's Horcruxes in the later Harry Potter books.

Sure, it "does nothing" to Xykon in the immediate sense, but if his body gets destroyed, then he's done, rather than retreating behind all those overkill protective enchantments.

Also, Xykon's moment of panic when it was headed for the Rift over Azure City indicates that when the proverbial chips are down, the phylactery does matter to Xykon, likely for the same reason. It won't render him a powerless spirit, like Sauron when the Ring was cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came, but it would be a serious asset to lose at any rate.

[hroþila]

The phylactery does matter a lot to Xykon, obviously, but if it got to the point where Redcloak was threatening Xykon, what does he have to lose really? The way I see it, one of the following could happen:

1.- Xykon tries to kill Redcloak before he can destroy the phylactery, and he succeeds. He keeps his safety net.
1.- Xykon tries to kill Redcloak before he can destroy the phylactery, and he fails. The phylactery is destroyed. Xykon loses his safety net.
3.- Xykon caves in and leaves without his phylactery. The phylactery is not destroyed, but Xykon loses his safety net all the same because he can't trust Redcloak not to destroy him as he regenerates.

Caving in would be pointless, which means this is probably not something Redcloak can use to intimidate Xykon, as it wasn't the first time around.

[Peelee]

You messed up the image link, Peelee.
Huh. It worked in the preview, but I can't seem to fix it now. Oh well, the link itself is fine to put in manually.

You could say that he missed!
Indignated Statement: Master! You wound me!

[lio45]

On the contrary, destroying the phylactery does do something productive: it robs Xykon of his mortal safety net -- kind of like the objective of destroying Voldemort's Horcruxes in the later Harry Potter books.

Sure, it "does nothing" to Xykon in the immediate sense, but if his body gets destroyed, then he's done, rather than retreating behind all those overkill protective enchantments.Sure, but that's only "something productive" if you're already in an open war with Xykon/Voldemort. Then, yes, of course, if you have a chance to destroy the phylactery/any horcrux, you obviously do it.

But it's not something that can really serve as a threat. Similarly, you wouldn't have gotten Voldemort to surrender to you by threatening to destroy one horcrux that you happened to have in your possession. It would be annoying to lose that safety net, but the safety net isn't a matter of life and death when you're still alive - you won't give up just because your enemy will take away your safety net if you don't.

(Essentially the same idea as what hroþila said.)

[Worldsong]

I'm wondering if D&M somehow finagle a running away into Monster Hollow. It'd be interesting to see what a dwarf makes of the interior (if, somehow, Serini had made the Dungeon navigable only to those with stonecunning).
In any case, I think things will de-escalate within the next few pages, simply because revealing Redcloak to Xykon at this point screws up so many other things going on in the story.

Huh. I actually like the idea that Serini purposefully designed the dungeon to be easier for dwarves as a way to indicate that it's Kraagor's Gate, not hers.

On the other hand the Gate is supposed to be safe from all villains, so making it easily accessible for Evil dwarves would be a case of mixed priorities.


He made the three Xykon's decoy during Azure City's siege.


Sooo... Start of Darkness, the decoys, and controlling the goth girls's wights.
That's thrice.


He also made a bunch of ghouls as well as an undead dragon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html).

Okay, so we do have records of him using necromancy fairly regularly. I guess he just figured it would be easier to turn a living captive into a dead captive than the reverse, so he'd start out with a living captive and only kill them if they had nothing useful to say while alive.

On the phylactery thing, I don't think Xykon would be dismissive towards threats towards his phylactery (especially from Redcloak) but it would probably make a poor bargaining chip because of aforementioned 'Xykon doesn't have much reason to withdraw if his phylactery is on the line.'

[Skull the Troll]

I thought is was an abbreviation of “mosquito” myself.

Skitter is the main character of Wildbow's web series Worm. She had the power to control bugs. In my opinion it is the best superhero/villain universe ever created. It's also if you get into the author your next 5+ years worth of reading. My favorite story of his was actually Twig though.

[Worldsong]

Early Worm is best Worm. Personally I found that after the mid-game things got a bit convoluted. The typical issue of a story which keeps trying to increase the scope of the setting and the issues.

[wingnutx]

I wonder if Xykon heard any exposition, or will get suspicious.

[wingnutx]

Also, Xykon's moment of panic when it was headed for the Rift over Azure City indicates that when the proverbial chips are down, the phylactery does matter to Xykon, likely for the same reason.

"Anything to avoid the big fire below." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

[Quizatzhaderac]

Okay, wacky theory time:

Destroying the statue activates a teleportation spell that teleports both OotS and tem Evil into random locations in the dungeon. As they have to survive to get out of the dungeon, they form new impromptu parties.

Team Cleric 2.0: Redcloak and Durkon

Team spontaneous spell casting: Xykon, MitD, and Fruit pie the sorcerer.

Team probably evil: Invisible outsiders and Belkar.

Team buddy cops: O-Chul and Elan.

Disorder of the stick: Lien, Haley, Minrah, Varsuvius, Oona, and Banjo (secretly Sabine in disguise).

Animals pals: Greyview, Blackwing, Scruffy, an un-polymorphed Bloodfeast, and the Flumphs.

The fighting fighters: Roy, three Fighter McWarrirors (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/11/06/episode-1056-mix-n-match/), and Durkon's cousin's roommate's boyfriend.

[Ghosty]

...The job in D&D is basically the exact opposite of the Discworld job.

Really, D&D gods of dead are more gods of undeath....

Then he'd be absolutely perfect for it. The guy zombifies everything. He'd try to zombify a God if he could. Try to animate the titanic body of that God the Gith city was built upon, that sort of thing.

Hard to show in a web strip, but I heard the Wile E Coyote falling cry in my head when reading that 'Use GDM on Xykon's flight spell' suggestion. Hilarious. Not likely to work, but hilarious all the same.

[Doug Lampert]

Then he'd be absolutely perfect for it. The guy zombifies everything. He'd try to zombify a God if he could. Try to animate the titanic body of that God the Gith city was built upon, that sort of thing.

Hard to show in a web strip, but I heard the Wile E Coyote falling cry in my head when reading that 'Use GDM on Xykon's flight spell' suggestion. Hilarious. Not likely to work, but hilarious all the same.

By the rules: Dispel magic
A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired.
Fly
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.

Basically, dispel on a fly spell lets the target have 1d6 rounds to reach the ground or cast again.

Obviously, Rich might not follow this, but it is the rules.

[dancrilis]

Basically, dispel on a fly spell lets the target have 1d6 rounds to reach the ground or cast again.

Obviously, Rich might not follow this, but it is the rules.

I am unsure, panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html) doesn't really seem a slow and safe descent.

[KorvinStarmast]

Kudzu. Bless you. :smallsmile:

find a replacement epic-level arcane magic user willing to work with him Vaarsuvius, who needs to do something substantial to get that redemption arc going. Improving the lot of goblins might be a start? :smallcool:

Ironically, Xykon's arrival raises the probability that both Durkon and Minrah will be taken prisoner.

I don't think dungeon crawling has left him nearly as bored as he was in Gobbotopia, Plausible, given how easily Xykon gets bored.

[hungrycrow]

Ironically, Xykon's arrival raises the probability that both Durkon and Minrah will be taken prisoner. Xykon may want both prisoners alive if for no other reason than to know why Redcloak is so anxious to kill at least one of them. Also, if he's bored he may think living captives taken for his amusement is better than two dead enemies.

I don't think dungeon crawling has left him nearly as bored as he was in Gobbotopia, but he's still faced with the problem that he can no longer experience the pleasures of the flesh. If the captives offer more amusement alive than dead, he may just keep them alive for the moment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I would think that after what happened with V and O-chul Xykon would be less inclined to play around with prisoners. On the other hand, I would have thought the same thing when Xykon just left the Order alone at Girard's Gate.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He needs to find some way to spend his downtime. 8 hours a day making magic items and maybe 6 hours dungeon crawling still leaves 10 hours to endure.

[Krakius]

I would think that after what happened with V and O-chul Xykon would be less inclined to play around with prisoners. On the other hand, I would have thought the same thing when Xykon just left the Order alone at Girard's Gate.
Regarding Girard's Gate, it probably makes a difference that Xykon can just ditch the heroes and not have to be around them. Whereas keeping a hero prisoner means keeping them near you and your stuff.

[Fyraltari]

I would think that after what happened with V and O-chul Xykon would be less inclined to play around with prisoners. On the other hand, I would have thought the same thing when Xykon just left the Order alone at Girard's Gate.

Xykon learned a lesson back at Gobbotopia's dungeon, and it was "don't ever leave your phylactery unattended." Now that it's safe and sound in an extraplanar Tomb of Horrors, what could prisoners ever do to him?

[gregolem]

He will sacrifice himself to save Durkon, and Minrah will have only met the new and improved Belkar.

[Olinser]

Okay, wacky theory time:

Destroying the statue activates a teleportation spell that teleports both OotS and tem Evil into random locations in the dungeon. As they have to survive to get out of the dungeon, they form new impromptu parties.

Team Cleric 2.0: Redcloak and Durkon

Team spontaneous spell casting: Xykon, MitD, and Fruit pie the sorcerer.

Team probably evil: Invisible outsiders and Belkar.

Team buddy cops: O-Chul and Elan.

Disorder of the stick: Lien, Haley, Minrah, Varsuvius, Oona, and Banjo (secretly Sabine in disguise).

Animals pals: Greyview, Blackwing, Scruffy, an un-polymorphed Bloodfeast, and the Flumphs.

The fighting fighters: Roy, three Fighter McWarrirors (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/11/06/episode-1056-mix-n-match/), and Durkon's cousin's roommate's boyfriend.

It's funny I've held for a while that Durkon's cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiance is going to be a huge key to how this is going to play out.

That plane he got shifted to looks awfully purple. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1167.html)

[PattThe]

It's funny I've held for a while that Durkon's cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiance is going to be a huge key to how this is going to play out.

giantitp[]com/comics/oots1167 That plane he got shifted to looks awfully purple.

What does not-gehenna have to do with this? >.>

[Karuth]

As much as I want our two dwarven friends to escape unharmed, I have to admit...

I missed seeing Xykon.

[Riftwolf]

Just a random thought, doubt it'll happen, but this is one of the only situations where putting a bag of holding into a portable hole would help.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just a random thought, doubt it'll happen, but this is one of the only situations where putting a bag of holding into a portable hole would help. What, and condemn Bloodfeast Extremintor to some random location in the Astral Plane? This we cannot have ... :smalleek:

[Oxenstierna]

It does look like they're trapped. 'Captured alive' doesn't really move the plot along. Sure, they get another chance to persuade Redcloak, but that's exactly what they've just attempted. 'Killed outright' likewise just puts them back with Thor, which was again what they already did; only even earlier. 'Killed and unresurrectable' is a Game-of-Thrones-style twist that doesn't seem too fitting in OOTS. Wouldn't rule it out: it would heighten the drama and stakes towards the end of the story, but doesn't seem worth losing the only currently active characters in the plan to permanently lock up the snarl.

It will be interesting to see what story direction is chosen from here.

Looking back at the 'invisible voices' who captured the paladins, they seem aware of Xykon and his power as a "certain lich", so I can't see them intervening with him around. Though that can't be ruled out too when so little is known of those voices and their abilities. It would move the story along to reveal more of them.

When Xykon had V and O-Chul cornered in Azure city, it took a MitD intervention. When Xykon had the party vulnerable at the pyramid, it took a MitD intervention. Third time's the charm? Allows the party (and story) to continue, having introduced Redcloak to the other gods' plans.

Or will they get away on their own? Durkon's plan seems to be to get *somewhere*: "on tha way ta'"... I'm not sure if the "outta thar line o' sight" is just a tactical decision to avoid attacks, or if he's looking to hide. If team evil don't know the exact layout of the area, I'm guessing using a spell like stone wall, shaped like the existing rock, would be hidden and difficult to find without seeing specifically where the spell was cast. Again, escape allows the party (and story) to continue.

It could also be possible that 'get out of line of sight' and just run into a random 'X'd dungeon door was the escape plan. Seems a bit risky, given they wouldn't know where the door leads or when it is safe to get out. If the dungeons are multi-dimensional there are all sorts of shenanigans that could be revealed. Maybe the same 'cleared' door doesn't always link to the same dungeon. Maybe they run into a 'cleared' door that the MitD 'X'd: and so it's not cleared. There's been little revealed about the puzzle to find the final gate. It does seem time to move into that mystery.

Disclaimer: This is not intended to be an exhaustive list of possibilities. Rocks may fall, killing everyone. Any relation of this speculation to any actual future plot, living or dead, is entirely coincidental. No animals were harmed in the making of this comment. Actually, that's not true. I did eat a turkey sandwich.

[Metastachydium]

It does look like they're trapped. 'Captured alive' doesn't really move the plot along. Sure, they get another chance to persuade Redcloak, but that's exactly what they've just attempted. 'Killed outright' likewise just puts them back with Thor, which was again what they already did; only even earlier. 'Killed and unresurrectable' is a Game-of-Thrones-style twist that doesn't seem too fitting in OOTS. Wouldn't rule it out: it would heighten the drama and stakes towards the end of the story, but doesn't seem worth losing the only currently active characters in the plan to permanently lock up the snarl.

It will be interesting to see what story direction is chosen from here.

Looking back at the 'invisible voices' who captured the paladins, they seem aware of Xykon and his power as a "certain lich", so I can't see them intervening with him around. Though that can't be ruled out too when so little is known of those voices and their abilities. It would move the story along to reveal more of them.

When Xykon had V and O-Chul cornered in Azure city, it took a MitD intervention. When Xykon had the party vulnerable at the pyramid, it took a MitD intervention. Third time's the charm? Allows the party (and story) to continue, having introduced Redcloak to the other gods' plans.

Or will they get away on their own? Durkon's plan seems to be to get *somewhere*: "on tha way ta'"... I'm not sure if the "outta thar line o' sight" is just a tactical decision to avoid attacks, or if he's looking to hide. If team evil don't know the exact layout of the area, I'm guessing using a spell like stone wall, shaped like the existing rock, would be hidden and difficult to find without seeing specifically where the spell was cast. Again, escape allows the party (and story) to continue.

It could also be possible that 'get out of line of sight' and just run into a random 'X'd dungeon door was the escape plan. Seems a bit risky, given they wouldn't know where the door leads or when it is safe to get out. If the dungeons are multi-dimensional there are all sorts of shenanigans that could be revealed. Maybe the same 'cleared' door doesn't always link to the same dungeon. Maybe they run into a 'cleared' door that the MitD 'X'd: and so it's not cleared. There's been little revealed about the puzzle to find the final gate. It does seem time to move into that mystery.

Disclaimer: This is not intended to be an exhaustive list of possibilities. Rocks may fall, killing everyone. Any relation of this speculation to any actual future plot, living or dead, is entirely coincidental. No animals were harmed in the making of this comment. Actually, that's not true. I did eat a turkey sandwich.

This would be a good time for the major ally we were promised to show up. My money's still on Tiamat's lizards, one of whom can teleport, while tthe other should have at least 13 levels of cleric.

[pendell]

It does look like they're trapped.

Capturing one of them alive allows them to be introduced to MITD and move that plotline along. The MITD is currently surrounded by evil characters and the advice Greyview gives tends to silent complicity in evil.

Nod. Get Treat.

For the MITD to grow further , the MITD needs exposure to another good character. Capturing one of them would fit the bill nicely. Capturing two would seem to make for unnecessary complexity in story telling.

So I would expect the outcome to be one of them captured while heroically buying time for the other to escape. One of them being killed while the other escapes would be more probable, but it would leave the Order down a cleric, and Monster Hollow isn't the sort of place you can go without a cleric.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ruck]

This would be a good time for the major ally we were promised to show up. My money's still on Tiamat's lizards, one of whom can teleport, while tthe other should have at least 13 levels of cleric.

That would certainly be an unexpected ally. I could see it thought if they bailed out Durkon and Minrah and then are like "In exchange for our help here, when this mess is all over, you need to hand your genocidal wizard over to us."

[Metastachydium]

That would certainly be an unexpected ally.

Those lizards are among the most powerful and potentially useful one-shot characters we've seen, and their boss is a consummate schemer who knows the future.


I could see it thought if they bailed out Durkon and Minrah and then are like "In exchange for our help here, when this mess is all over, you need to hand your genocidal wizard over to us."

Heh. Y'know, while I think Tiamat has a gambit of a broader scope, I like that.

[KorvinStarmast]

I could see it thought if they bailed out Durkon and Minrah and then are like "In exchange for our help here, when this mess is all over, you need to hand your genocidal wizard over to us." I like the cut of your jib. :smallcool:

[Doug Lampert]

Capturing one of them alive allows them to be introduced to MITD and move that plotline along. The MITD is currently surrounded by evil characters and the advice Greyview gives tends to silent complicity in evil.

Nod. Get Treat.

For the MITD to grow further , the MITD needs exposure to another good character. Capturing one of them would fit the bill nicely. Capturing two would seem to make for unnecessary complexity in story telling.

So I would expect the outcome to be one of them captured while heroically buying time for the other to escape. One of them being killed while the other escapes would be more probable, but it would leave the Order down a cleric, and Monster Hollow isn't the sort of place you can go without a cleric.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I also do not expect either to die. They could have gotten out by any number of means (high level cleric), they didn't. Rich therefor has some reason to want then trapped. That reason is not just to kill one (implosion could have killed Durkon, any number of things could have killed the at least somewhat weaker Minrah).

This scene has been prolonged so that "something" will happen. And that "something" is not just a character dying.

It could be the introduction of an ally, it could be that they gain or lose something in escaping, it could be so that one or both are captured, but Rich has a goal for why Word of Recall or Cloudwalk or Plane Shift or fill in the blank was not already used to escape, and it isn't just to kill a character who was already dead a few pages ago.

[KorvinStarmast]

...but Rich has a goal for why Word of Recall or Cloudwalk or Plane Shift or fill in the blank was not already used to escape, and it isn't just to kill a character who was already dead a few pages ago. Yes to all of that. He's left us hanging before so this isn't a new technique for him. :smallcool:

[Rogar Demonblud]

You think we'd be used to dangling in the Giant's grasp by now...

[KorvinStarmast]

You think we'd be used to dangling in the Giant's grasp by now... ... like O-Chul and Lien ... but your post just gave me a little word picture.

Often, between strips, we are left dangling on the Giant's participle.

Not sensible, but that's what came to me six cups of coffee into the day.

[Oxenstierna]

So I would expect the outcome to be one of them captured while heroically buying time for the other to escape. One of them being killed while the other escapes would be more probable, but it would leave the Order down a cleric, and Monster Hollow isn't the sort of place you can go without a cleric.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Some great ideas there. Xykon might well capture and torture as punishment first; rather than just kill immediately (alignment evil-stupid?) Especially if he's 'lost' in some way.

I hadn't thought of the heroic sacrifice possibility, though it still leaves the open question of exactly how the other character escapes. I'm assuming team evil are not operating to computer-game logic and forget the heroes exist once they're out of range... Attack the heroes! Wait: they've run off. No, don't go see where they've gone. Okay, everyone back to your predictable patrol paths :)

Not sure what the MitD would learn about a 'good' worldview that they couldn't have got from O-Chul, but it would be an opportunity to develop the character a bit more. Or to introduce the world-destruction stakes to the MitD, giving motivation for further intervention.

[Lord Raziere]

On the contrary, destroying the phylactery does do something productive: it robs Xykon of his mortal safety net -- kind of like the objective of destroying Voldemort's Horcruxes in the later Harry Potter books.

Sure, it "does nothing" to Xykon in the immediate sense, but if his body gets destroyed, then he's done, rather than retreating behind all those overkill protective enchantments.

Also, Xykon's moment of panic when it was headed for the Rift over Azure City indicates that when the proverbial chips are down, the phylactery does matter to Xykon, likely for the same reason. It won't render him a powerless spirit, like Sauron when the Ring was cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came, but it would be a serious asset to lose at any rate.

Counter-counterpoint:
:xykon:"If Redcloak ever betrays me I want you to eat him and spit out that amulet he wears around his neck" To an enchanted MITD while Redcloak wasn't looking

Redcloak would probably try that plan- but MITD is basically a sleeper agent and Xykon would have no compunctions about just killing Redcloak and finding something else to do after murdering everyone nearby in rage at being lied to for decades.

Basically these two guys have already double crossed each other long before this. we're just watching the double crosses slowly get closer to their inevitable collision.

[drazen]

Aren't Roy and the OOTS just across the chasm on the ledge? And possibly saw giant Minrah?

Flying invisible magic sword wielding Roy to the rescue! Assuming he can throw and popback his sword without it becoming visible or Xykon being able to zero in o where it's coming from. (Seems like that should come way later in the book, though)

Not sure how on Stickworld Xykon did not notice the OOTS while flying up out of the chasm, though.

[Yendor]

Those lizards are among the most powerful and potentially useful one-shot characters we've seen, and their boss is a consummate schemer who knows the future.

It all seems very plausible. They're powerful enough to be useful allies, the Oracle can tell them exactly where and when to go, and Tiamat would presumably approve of Thor's plan.

I wonder if they'd be there to help with negotiations. A representative of a god who's on better terms with the Dark One could help. Then again, the Giant has said that Hinjo still has a role to play in the story. If he shows up to represent the third pantheon, things could get... interesting.

[danielxcutter]

You know, I think V really would be genuinely sorry if they met agents of Tiamat now that I think about it. Which Tiamat might know already, but that probably wouldn’t make it any worse.

[ebarde]

Tiamat seems to be banking on whatever plans the fiends have. Whatever that is I'm not sure, so I don't know if she even would get anything out of helping the order.

[Cazero]

Timat seems to be banking on whatever plans the fiends have.
[citation needed]

[ebarde]

[citation needed]

She was ok with the sacrifice of most of her black dragons to see their plan through(she didn't knew about the familicide until after the fact, but she signed off on it after they told her their plan would kill way more good dragons to make up for the ones she lost).

[dancrilis]

She sacrificied most of her black dragons to see their plan through

No she didn't.

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) the fiends had to convince her it was part of a secret plan to bring down the gods of good, the dragons were already dead at that point it was not a sacrifice she made (and based on Vaarsuvius's calculations most black dragons survived - but that is a minor point).
Further the fiends didn't tell her the plan, but had to promise that they would kill a whole load of dragons later - which the fiends think will be easy if everything works out for them.

[Cazero]

She was ok with the sacrifice of most of her black dragons to see their plan through(she didn't knew about the familicide until after the fact, but she signed off on it after they told her their plan would kill way more good dragons to make up for the ones she lost).
She was furious. That's not being ok.
And by the fiends retelling, it's very clear that she was tricked into tolerating the loss by blatant lies and the hollow promise for a bloodshed that won't cost them anything.

[Metastachydium]

She was furious. That's not being ok.
And by the fiends retelling, it's very clear that she was tricked into tolerating the loss by blatant lies and the hollow promise for a bloodshed that won't cost them anything.

This mostly depends on how her foreknowledge works, though. If she just knows all that was, is and will be, she knew she was sending ABD into her death (killing a quarter of the world's black dragon population in the process).
Provided she merely has access to this knowledge (in the sense that she did not know V even exists until ABD asked about her, but once she knew what she was looking for she also had access to the knowledge of who V is and where V is), that still means that now that she knows the directors are up to something, she may also learn with ease what their plan is, in which case they still cannot trick him unless she lets them do that through inaction (i.e. through not checking out what the vague plan they told her about is, exactly).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Welcome to the latest installment of Why Prophecy Sucks.

[KorvinStarmast]

Welcome to the latest installment of Why Prophecy Sucks. Laius, King of Thebes, would have agreed with you. It got him killed. :smalleek:

[Riarra]

Counter-counterpoint:
:xykon:"If Redcloak ever betrays me I want you to eat him and spit out that amulet he wears around his neck" To an enchanted MITD while Redcloak wasn't looking

Redcloak would probably try that plan- but MITD is basically a sleeper agent and Xykon would have no compunctions about just killing Redcloak and finding something else to do after murdering everyone nearby in rage at being lied to for decades.

Basically these two guys have already double crossed each other long before this. we're just watching the double crosses slowly get closer to their inevitable collision.


Question: if Xykon's body is destroyed, do his spells stay in effect?

[Worldsong]

Question: if Xykon's body is destroyed, do his spells stay in effect?

I'm guessing concentration spells would go away but anything which just has a long duration would run its course normally.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Oh, I have missed Xykon's presence in this webcomic. I started reading when 671 was the newest strip, and have been waiting for a genuine Order-of-the-Stick-member(s)-versus-Xykon throw-down ever since.

(However, I don't think Rich can possibly top Darth V's fight with Xykon.)

[goodpeople25]

Oh, I have missed Xykon's presence in this webcomic. I started reading when 671 was the newest strip, and have been waiting for a genuine Order-of-the-Stick-member(s)-versus-Xykon throw-down ever since.

(However, I don't think Rich can possibly top Darth V's fight with Xykon.)
Ooh when was that? Didn't know V during that time period ever had a fight in the comic.
Genocide, Murder and swinging their genitals around, sure. But a fight?:smallwink:

[greenfunkman]

This would be a good time for the major ally we were promised to show up. My money's still on Tiamat's lizards, one of whom can teleport, while tthe other should have at least 13 levels of cleric.


You mean these guys, right? -

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html

[Metastachydium]

You mean these guys, right? -

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html

Yup. That's them.

[dancrilis]

I assumed that people were more or less joking about Tiamat and the Lizard Wizard and Lizard Cleric reappearing but I am starting to think that people might actually be serious, so ...


Re: the "boss": Rich would not produce two lizardfolk capable of producing 5th level spells from the ether. The strip was obviously forshadowing. The Oracle could just as easily say that he hires these two himself. They could be working for him to ensure his survival. Why would Rich put in a line about a "boss" if they were not going to show up again. Rich would never do something like that. This must be forshadowing.

I love the certainty expressed here. The fun part is that Sunken Valley PM'd me to come back him up on this thread, and he is totally and utterly wrong.

The lizardfolk details are world-building, not foreshadowing. It's the first clue that in part of this world (the part that the Oracle hails from), lizardfolk can be civilized businesspeople engaged in long-term contracts, as opposed to most D&D worlds where they run around in swamps with crude spears. It's a sneak peak at what the Western Continent will look like when we get there: half human, half reptilian. That's it.

The Oracle says, "Say hello to your boss for me," because it's small talk, and he's being friendly. Given that the Oracle is usually a jackass, this in turn reveals something about his personality: He is friendly and jovial to fellow reptilians, but not to mammals.

In other words, Conservation of Detail is overrated.

I don't think they will be showing up again as major characters, nor do I think they were introduced as foreshadowing.

[Metastachydium]

I assumed that people were more or less joking about Tiamat and the Lizard Wizard and Lizard Cleric reappearing but I am starting to think that people might actually be serious, so ...

I don't think they will be showing up again as major characters, nor do I think they were introduced as foreshadowing.

But I like those lizards.
(Also, where's Jason to tell us that the Giant might be lying when I need him to do that?)

[bunsen_h]

It occurs to me that Vaarsuvius's premise for using the Familicide spell is faulty. Taking out all dragons who are blood-related, so that nobody would have a reason to go after their family again, has a fundamental flaw, of the "de kind vere ve keel everybody dot notices dot ve's killin' people" (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031017) variety. Even without Tiamat's involvement, the remaining black dragons would be looking into how and why a quarter of their population abruptly died. And very likely doing something about it.

Hats would be lost.

[KorvinStarmast]

...the remaining black dragons would be looking into how and why a quarter of their population abruptly died. And very likely doing something about it.

Hats would be lost. Yes, that's a logical 'in world' response once the various black dragons all over the world who are not related to the ABD slowly gather enough clues and tidbits to get an idea of how many other black dragons stopped sending Acidbreathmas cards, or no long drop into chat on Scalebook or Tailtwitcher ... but that takes time.

I think that Familicide's results are about a month old or so, on the in-world timeline?
Granted, Tiamat could 'spread the word'via her clerics, but that may also take a bit of time for the news to reach a critical mass such that
"We need to have an All Blacks (no, not rugby!) Dragon meeting because something seriously bad just happened to 'one of us' "
and so on.

Maybe a squadron of flying black dragons will figure into the end game as the result of such a meeting.

[dancrilis]

It occurs to me that Vaarsuvius's premise for using the Familicide spell is faulty. Taking out all dragons who are blood-related, so that nobody would have a reason to go after their family again, has a fundamental flaw, of the "de kind vere ve keel everybody dot notices dot ve's killin' people" (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031017) variety. Even without Tiamat's involvement, the remaining black dragons would be looking into how and why a quarter of their population abruptly died. And very likely doing something about it.


Even ignoring the Black Dragons and Tiamat - we know that there is at least one Green Dragon was friendly with the family (panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)), we also know that adoption is a thing in OOTS (panel 2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html)).

As such non-blood family and friendship bonds could result in retribution and we know that there is at least one oracle that is comfortably to point people towards those they want to seek vengence on (panel 10 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)).

Vaarsuvius dramatically increased the chance that someone else has already eaten their spouse and children (or will over the next few centuries) without warning or notification - and that person might be content in the knowledge that the elf will find out eventually and realise they are far far to late to do anything about it.