Ability score associated with cooking

[nickl_2000]

If you were to have someone make a check on cooking a certain quality food DC 20 (for something complicated that a King is requiring), you would do a Cooks Utensils check, but what ability would you do it against?

Wisdom? Intelligence?

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Maybe depends on what food is being cooked, and how much of it, and how it is done.

General cooking skill, going with the flow to make a meal based on past knowledge and experience? Wisdom, probably.

Is it a huge feast that takes many hours to prepare? Constitution might be in order, to measure the endurance of it.

Following a very specific, detailed recipe? Intelligence makes sense.

Is the food very intricate in its presentation and requires a lot of fine knife work or showmanship? Maybe Dexterity.

[Darth Credence]

If you were to have someone make a check on cooking a certain quality food DC 20 (for something complicated that a King is requiring), you would do a Cooks Utensils check, but what ability would you do it against?

Wisdom? Intelligence?

If it's a matter of following a recipe, say a particularly complex one to justify the DC20, I'd go with intelligence. If it's a matter of creating something from the ingredients at hand to try and get a particular result, then I would go with wisdom. This comes from my understanding of intelligence as book smarts, so following complicated directions would fall under that. Meanwhile, wisdom is about intuition and understanding how things interact, so it would cover trying to recreate a dish without precise instructions.

Now, if what matters most is presentation of the dish, then I might go with Charisma.

[Xtreme_Banana]

Imo:
- INT when cooking from recipe/memory
WIS when cooking intuitively
also maybe
DEX if it requires very precise actions

[Anonymouswizard]

From my experience cooking the main things that are important are perception and manual dexterity, and unless you're trying to look impressive or cut finely perception is much more important.

So Wisdom+Chef's Implements Proficiency/Expertise seems logical to me, with impressive cooking being a Dexterity (Performance) check in addition to the check for cooking well.

[Martin Greywolf]

cooking a certain quality food DC 20 (for something complicated that a King is requiring)

I'd say it's impossible to do, don't bother to roll, unless the character in question has some sort of reason to know cooking. The issues of what medieval food looked like aside, if you want to make something that complicated, you will ned prior experience with making it, or something similar, to get good results, since we're not exactly talking about a simple pie. Which is pretty complicated as it is. This goes triple when your utensils are, well, medieval, you don't exactly have a well-ventilated electric oven with a temperature gage.

[nickl_2000]

Thank you to everyone who responded. It sounds like Wisdom will fit my needs.



I'd say it's impossible to do, don't bother to roll, unless the character in question has some sort of reason to know cooking. The issues of what medieval food looked like aside, if you want to make something that complicated, you will ned prior experience with making it, or something similar, to get good results, since we're not exactly talking about a simple pie. Which is pretty complicated as it is. This goes triple when your utensils are, well, medieval, you don't exactly have a well-ventilated electric oven with a temperature gage.

While this is a very realistic look at it, I would rather give the players a chance at it and let them utilize that cooking utensil proficiency that was chosen.

[Unoriginal]

If you were to have someone make a check on cooking a certain quality food DC 20 (for something complicated that a King is requiring), you would do a Cooks Utensils check, but what ability would you do it against?

Wisdom? Intelligence?

If it's to please the king, I would make it a special WIS or CHA check, with proficiency mod if proficient in Cook's Ustensiles, and with advantage if they're also proficient in Insight. It's not about following the recipe, it's about pleasing a specific person who has a specific idea in mind.

I think it's coherent with the Xanathar's Guide to Everything's rules on Tool uses.



I'd say it's impossible to do, don't bother to roll, unless the character in question has some sort of reason to know cooking.

Being proficient in Cook's Ustensiles is the reason.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Definitely wisdom. Even when following a recipe with modern equipment, there are so many small differences in things like how well utensils conduct heat, how fresh your spices are, how much water verses fiber your vegetables have, the exact cut of your meat... even the humidity of the room can matter. There's much more judgment and intuition involved in following a recipe than there is in following, say, a lab protocol.

You can hand my partner and I the same cut of beef and have us both sear each side 3-5 minutes until browned and bake at 350 degrees until medium rate, and you'll get two VERY different steaks.

[Mercureality]

If you were to have someone make a check on cooking a certain quality food DC 20 (for something complicated that a King is requiring), you would do a Cooks Utensils check, but what ability would you do it against?

Wisdom? Intelligence?

I know a few professional chefs, and they vary wildly in intelligence. You can't *possibly* have a high wisdom and choose a profession that requires 10 hour days, weird hours, and constant, unrelenting stress. Some are lovable, and some are awful tyrants so charisma is right out. Uhhh.

I have no idea. Dex? It takes some skill to chop ingredients and manipulate so many pans and utensils at once correctly. One thing I can say for certain is that a clumsy chef is a chef with missing fingertips and a lot of burns.

On a serious note, I'd probably base it on wisdom, on the basis that perception is the real key to a great chef. Scent, sound, taste, color -- having a sense of these things will make you a better cook with various ingredients and techniques, and you don't have to be smart to learn them.

[heavyfuel]

Wisdom, for sure. As others have said, changing the score used depending on the goal is a decent approximation, but that'd be like calling for a Constitution (Athletics) check. Possible, but it shouldn't be the norm.


You can't *possibly* have a high wisdom and choose a profession that requires 10 hour days, weird hours, and constant, unrelenting stress.

Or, y'know, they love what they do.

[Unoriginal]

I know a few professional chefs, and they vary wildly in intelligence. You can't *possibly* have a high wisdom and choose a profession that requires 10 hour days, weird hours, and constant, unrelenting stress.

So no adventurer has high wisdom, ever. Gotcha.

[OldTrees1]

If you were to have someone make a check on cooking a certain quality food DC 20 (for something complicated that a King is requiring), you would do a Cooks Utensils check, but what ability would you do it against?

Wisdom? Intelligence?


Depends on the task but remember 5E does skills it backwards for some reason. It is a Str(Athletics) check not a Athletics(Str) check.
Edit: I had a typo where I put them in the wrong order. I did say 5E does it backwards. :P

If someone is making a complicated dish for a King, then:
0) Is it something they might just automatically pass? I can bake a marble cake, tres leche cake, or a baguette without risk of failure. However brioche would require a roll.
1) What do they know / intuit about the dish? Int/Wis (Cooking) check to know how to prepare the obscure food. If it is a less obscure food, then success grants advantage on the next check.
2) Does the preparation tax any particular ability? Delicate work might call for a Dex check. Tasks requiring Strength are rare (kneading dough by hand takes Str and Con) and probably not difficult enough to require an actual check. Although draining an industrial pot of pasta can be quite heavy.


For example fugu is a poisonous fish that is prepared in Japan. I would consider it a Wis(Cooking) check for someone with experience with the task. Or an Int(Cooking) -> Dex (Cooking) to know how to prepare that dish. However there are people that do it as a living, so DC 20 is absurd.

[Unoriginal]

Depends on the task but remember 5E does skills it backwards for some reason. It is a Athletics(Str) check not a Str(Athletics) check.

Untrue. It is a STR check, with Athletics proficiency added IF the skill applies. So it is a STR (Athletics) check.

[Mercureality]

So no adventurer has high wisdom, ever. Gotcha.

Ah, but the pay for adventuring is outstanding.

[Razgriez]

My thoughts:

-Wisdom will handle most situations regarding cooking. Use Wisdom+ Cook's Utensil Proficiency when handling Xanathar's option rules or similar Feats and the like as needed. Cooking in many ways is a fair bit of perception, though we've got the aid of modern gadgets and devices to help give us stable cooking temperatures or exact internal temps, as well as understanding on which flavors and textures pair well.

Advantage and/or proficiency bonus applied with Cook's Utensil Tool Proficiency
-History/Investigation (Advantage with Tool proficiency) (Intelligence): Use this to research recipes and their origins, or to learn recipes from others or their cooking (may be swapped with Wisdom as DM see's fit). Can also be used to discern a dishes components or anything strange in it.

- Athletics (Strength): Of limited use, this is more for dealing with ingredients that may require a bit of brute force to deal with (hard shelled fruits and the occasional creature for example). a heavy and filled cast-iron cookware.

-Dexterity, anything that requires agility or precision, I.E. chopping food quickly to save time, working on multiple dishes at once. This is more useful as part of a "Skill Challenge" (I.E. being challenged to a timed cook-off) as one of several tests to see how well your overall dish turns out.

-Charisma (Persuasion/Intimidate/Deception): More useful for when leading a kitchen with other chefs or sous chefs. Can also be used to help sell your dish to a customer or judge or the like (or lie about an ingredient or flavor)

-Constitution: This will generally only be used for saving throws involving culinary mishaps: Grabbing a hot bowl or pot and resisting dropping everything. Tasting a dish and learning that "no, those ingredients definitely do *not* go together" for example.

[OldTrees1]

Untrue. It is a STR check, with Athletics proficiency added IF the skill applies. So it is a STR (Athletics) check.

Fixed. Thanks for noticing my typo so I could fix it. I meant to say Ability(Prof).

[PhoenixPhyre]

If I were the DM, the actual act of cooking shouldn't require a check at all except under extreme conditions (ie actually hostile food or kitchen environment).

Cooking a feast for someone is something that ordinary, average folk do every day without any significant chance of failure. Even an Iron Chef competition is less about cooking (that rarely goes really wrong) and more about recipe selection, knowing the judges, knowing the ingredients, etc. The actual mechanical skills are pretty simple, and are usually handled by the sous chefs. That's the other thing--this is not a solo endeavor.

So an actual adventuring-relevant act of cooking should be a scene, not a single roll. Studying the audience and figuring out what they like and what goes well. That's a Charisma (X) set of checks. Another person researching and experimenting with exotic ingredients. That's an Intelligence (Cook's Tools) check. A mini adventure in gathering the most exotic ingredients. A set of Charisma (Cook's Tools) checks for figuring out presentation. Charisma (Performance) for actually doing the delivery. But not a roll for the actual cooking.

All of these go together--none are a loss (or win) condition by themselves, but the overall level of success plays into how the king responds.

This is my basic philosophy for any of this sort of thing--no challenge should be doable by a single character. Ever. If it could, it wasn't a challenge in the first place.

[blackjack50]

Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing it does not belong in a fruit salad.

[HappyDaze]

So no adventurer has high wisdom, ever. Gotcha.

He said 10-hour workdays, not 10-minute workdays.

[FrancisBean]

Having seen some of the responses, now I'm trying to figure out when you'd ever make a Strength (Cook's Tools) check. Maybe if the King in question were a Hill Giant, and you're trying to give him something better to eat than you and your mates?

[MaxWilson]

I'm inclined to say Wisdom, but I also want to know why the DM thinks the outcome is in doubt and needs a die roll, because that will also tell you what kind of roll is appropriate. Is it a recipe which requires you to stay awake for 24 hours constantly stirring? I could see that as a DC 20 Wis or Con check (player's choice). Or does it call for fine manipulation of a frosting dispenser to create a life-sized replica of the queen's face? In that case, DC 20 Dex would be appropriate.

If you don't know why a die roll would be needed, if say skip the roll and focus on the interesting parts such as gathering ingredients. For the actual meal preparation, as long as they know how to cook, just let it work because why wouldn't it?

[Zhorn]

Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing it does not belong in a fruit salad.

And Charisma is used for selling people on the notion of a tomato based fruit salad (ie: salsa)

[blackjack50]

Performance check if presentation is important. This is something they do score chefs and bakers on.

Investigation if you need to learn details about the food (or general intelligence) or go off a recipe. Baking would require more measuring and awareness of the food science.

Nature check if one is dealing with foods they do not normally handle. General understanding of the physiology may give an insight into how to best cook the meal. Think mushrooms, but also knowing you can fry gizzards from many birds.

Perception for any cooking where you are tending something (meats especially). You will need to be aware that it is done, and if something is going wrong whilst cooking it.

General dex/sleight of hand for finesse work and decoration as well.

[blackjack50]

And Charisma is used for selling people on the notion of a tomato based fruit salad (ie: salsa)

Bingo! :) That whole thing is a great way to look at this.

[Razgriez]

If I were the DM, the actual act of cooking shouldn't require a check at all except under extreme conditions (ie actually hostile food or kitchen environment).

Cooking a feast for someone is something that ordinary, average folk do every day without any significant chance of failure. Even an Iron Chef competition is less about cooking (that rarely goes really wrong) and more about recipe selection, knowing the judges, knowing the ingredients, etc. The actual mechanical skills are pretty simple, and are usually handled by the sous chefs. That's the other thing--this is not a solo endeavor.

So an actual adventuring-relevant act of cooking should be a scene, not a single roll. Studying the audience and figuring out what they like and what goes well. That's a Charisma (X) set of checks. Another person researching and experimenting with exotic ingredients. That's an Intelligence (Cook's Tools) check. A mini adventure in gathering the most exotic ingredients. A set of Charisma (Cook's Tools) checks for figuring out presentation. Charisma (Performance) for actually doing the delivery. But not a roll for the actual cooking.

All of these go together--none are a loss (or win) condition by themselves, but the overall level of success plays into how the king responds.

This is my basic philosophy for any of this sort of thing--no challenge should be doable by a single character. Ever. If it could, it wasn't a challenge in the first place.

Yes and No:

Cooking a meal for sustenance is easy. Depending on the situation, DC 5 to 10 on average, and most of that is going to be more affected by environmental conditions (cooking outdoors in less than ideal conditions for example). Taking a few basic ingredients and making an edible dish is not 9th-level magic.

Where the check becomes important, is when you're trying to determine the results of the dish's quality or a more complex dish, or if you're making use of Xanathar's rules for making a meal during a short rest, or taking certain kinds of food (particularly those that keep well on the road in a pre-modern setting, where preservation is typically cured, smoked, jarred, and maybe some canned, etc etc.) and making it something better.

Building off the DC guide for Xanathar's:

-Natural 1 (Critical Fumble): A mishap occurs while cooking. The food is either lost (spilled on the ground), not as nourishing or easy to digest (over cooked and burnt), or undercooked/raw/improperly prepared (Requires a Constitution Saving throw to avoid being Poisoned, Investigation to notice), or some other misfortune within reason that the DM describes)
-DC 5 (Simple or adequate meal): A very simple, minimal ingredients or process meal with few concerns involved. Quick, easy, nothing particularly of note and depending on the ingredients (or lack there off of things like seasoning), may leave much to be desired, but you won't go hungry.
-DC 10 (Typical Meal, as per Xanathar's), classic meals readily known and available to the residents of the region. This is probably the DC you'll want to use for the "Prepare a meal option"'s listed effect, baring any Difficulty modifiers based on situation.
-DC 15 (Gourmet, as per Xanathar's): Exactly what it says on the tin: a meal fit for a fancier dining experience, special event, or VIPs.
-DC 20: an extremely well made meal, the kind that is likely to cost the diner some coin, and leave a lasting memory.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes and No:

Cooking a meal for sustenance is easy. Depending on the situation, DC 5 to 10 on average, and most of that is going to be more affected by environmental conditions (cooking outdoors in less than ideal conditions for example). Taking a few basic ingredients and making an edible dish is not 9th-level magic.

Where the check becomes important, is when you're trying to determine the results of the dish's quality or a more complex dish, or if you're making use of Xanathar's rules for making a meal during a short rest, or taking certain kinds of food (particularly those that keep well on the road in a pre-modern setting, where preservation is typically cured, smoked, jarred, and maybe some canned, etc etc.) and making it something better.

Building off the DC guide for Xanathar's:

-Natural 1 (Critical Fumble): A mishap occurs while cooking. The food is either lost (spilled on the ground), not as nourishing or easy to digest (over cooked and burnt), or undercooked/raw/improperly prepared (Requires a Constitution Saving throw to avoid being Poisoned, Investigation to notice), or some other misfortune within reason that the DM describes)
-DC 5 (Simple or adequate meal): A very simple, minimal ingredients or process meal with few concerns involved. Quick, easy, nothing particularly of note and depending on the ingredients (or lack there off of things like seasoning), may leave much to be desired, but you won't go hungry.
-DC 10 (Typical Meal, as per Xanathar's), classic meals readily known and available to the residents of the region. This is probably the DC you'll want to use for the "Prepare a meal option"'s listed effect, baring any Difficulty modifiers based on situation.
-DC 15 (Gourmet, as per Xanathar's): Exactly what it says on the tin: a meal fit for a fancier dining experience, special event, or VIPs.
-DC 20: an extremely well made meal, the kind that is likely to cost the diner some coin, and leave a lasting memory.

But what's the penalty for failure? You retry, losing some ingredients. That's not a meaningful failure. And cooking is something that anyone with proficiency is (by fiction) not supposed to really fail at.

Cooking just isn't an adventuring challenge, in the absence of complications. Failure doesn't move the story forward, and success just isn't that interesting.

Now if it's part of a scene, where you're cooking for someone as part of a persuasion, seduction, or other story-relevant thing, where you really only get one shot, or the key ingredient is so difficult to get that it's its own adventure, then the process of cooking, including recipe selection, ingredient gathering, presentation, etc may involve checks.

But simple cooking, even gourmet? No. It's not something that one person does (for the gourmet stuff), it's not actually that hard, and both failure and success aren't that interesting.