Waking up mid-combat

[Greywander]

So, I know there are some people who really don't like the yoyo healing. And, from my own experience, I also know that just because you hate using a certain tactic or strategy, you might use it anyway because it actually is just that effective. This got me thinking about what it would actually be like for someone to get knocked out, then regain consciousness, while in the middle of a fight.

For starters, let's consider what it would be like if someone was asleep and managed to sleep through the first few rounds of combat, only to be awoken while the fight was still ongoing. Now, the person waking up would have no idea what was going on. Looking at the surprise rules, surprise doesn't actually need to happen at the start of combat, so it's entirely feasible to have the newly awoken character be surprised during their first round.

Now, when people get knocked out, it's normal for them to lose their memory of the moments leading up to the knock out. When they wake up, they're usually confused and disoriented. I'm not sure where we got the idea that we could just heal someone up from 0 and have them spring back to their feet and act immediately. The moment of disorientation seems like it would warrant being surprised for that first round, before they're able to jump back in the fight. Maybe they don't quite remember what's going on, but they can quickly deduce that their friends are fighting.

That said, this might be a matter of pragmatism. A knocked out creature that stirs and looks around confused is likely to get slapped down again before they can gather their senses. In fact, the monsters might decide to make sure they stay down permanently, now that they know you can wake them up with healing magic. So allowing the knocked out creature to jump right back in might be required to keep them from simply getting knocked down again.

[MaxWilson]

Well, at the very least they wake up prone.

I don't think surprise is justified though.

[sayaijin]

Well, at the very least they wake up prone.

They also drop everything they were holding.
Because of free item interactions that's not extremely relevant mechanically, but it could be good for RP.

[Jerrykhor]

That comes with the assumption that D&D combat is meant to be heroic in nature. If you have to take care of every little cut and bruise, prevent every bleed as to not pass out from loss of blood, get dazed from every little bump, that wouldn't be very heroic. Not to mention unfun.

Surprise condition on getting up would be ridiculous and pointless. Whats the point of getting up if you can't do anything? You are most likely 1 hit away from going down again. It will just discourage your party members from healing you, and thus make for boring combat as you twiddle your thumbs hoping your party members can somehow salvage the situation with you out of the fight.

D&D PCs are simply badasses who can fight legendary monsters that might be the size of a house.

[Dork_Forge]

My personal solution to yoyo healing is the exhaustion mechanic: If you go down and get brought back up you have one level of exhaustion that will go away on your next short rest. If you are brought down multiple times before your next short rest then you keep accruing levels of exhaustion but starting with the second level, they now all (inc. the first) need to be slept off conventionally or Greater Restoration needs to be burned.


That comes with the assumption that D&D combat is meant to be heroic in nature. If you have to take care of every little cut and bruise, prevent every bleed as to not pass out from loss of blood, get dazed from every little bump, that wouldn't be very heroic. Not to mention unfun.

Surprise condition on getting up would be ridiculous and pointless. Whats the point of getting up if you can't do anything? You are most likely 1 hit away from going down again. It will just discourage your party members from healing you, and thus make for boring combat as you twiddle your thumbs hoping your party members can somehow salvage the situation with you out of the fight.

D&D PCs are simply badasses who can fight legendary monsters that might be the size of a house.

You can feel heroic without the very gamist issue of yoyo healing.

[MrStabby]

Huh. I had never thought of surprised. It does make sense though, I guess.

In an ideal world I might look to provide a check to avoid still - maybe even something related to their HP so if you want them back in the fight sooner then you heal them more.

Maybe a DC 30 perception check, adding current HP to the result? Bringing someone back with some solid healing is a bit more attractive then.

[Waazraath]

To be fair, I expect experienced adventurers to whom this happens all the time get used to it very quickly, and wake up adrenaline filled every morning checking for the dragon and their weapons first.

Tssss, what a life, why do people choose this???

[Asisreo1]

They also drop everything they were holding.
Because of free item interactions that's not extremely relevant mechanically, but it could be good for RP.
A dual wielder or a sword and board character will take longer to get back to their fully equipped selves.

[HappyDaze]

A dual wielder or a sword and board character will take longer to get back to their fully equipped selves.

Is a shield held in the hand or worn on the arm? It takes an action to equip/unequip one, so it seems to be the latter, and this would mean shields are not dropped because no action was taken to do so.

[Bunny Commando]

Now, when people get knocked out, it's normal for them to lose their memory of the moments leading up to the knock out. When they wake up, they're usually confused and disoriented. I'm not sure where we got the idea that we could just heal someone up from 0 and have them spring back to their feet and act immediately. The moment of disorientation seems like it would warrant being surprised for that first round, before they're able to jump back in the fight. Maybe they don't quite remember what's going on, but they can quickly deduce that their friends are fighting.

IMHO D&D representation of combat lacks any granularity: either you are active and conscious or you are passive and unconscious.
In reality individuals with life-threatening wound could be quite conscious so if you want to introduce a rule that says that your character is surprised in the first round of combat after being brought back from the dying state because it would increase the verisimilitude of combat, I do believe you should also rule that there's a chance a dying character could retain consciousness that would keep her from being surprised if healed.
I do also believe it would unnecessarily slow the flow of combat and I see little payoff.

[Asisreo1]

Is a shield held in the hand or worn on the arm? It takes an action to equip/unequip one, so it seems to be the latter, and this would mean shields are not dropped because no action was taken to do so.
The description of shields say it's carried in one hand. Otherwise, you could feasibly have a dual wielding character with a shield (more like a buckler) equipped.

[HappyDaze]

The description of shields say it's carried in one hand. Otherwise, you could feasibly have a dual wielding character with a shield (more like a buckler) equipped.

Worn on the arm, can't use the hand for anything else. It's that simple.

[Asisreo1]

Worn on the arm, can't use the hand for anything else. It's that simple.
Do you consider "carried in one hand" as "worn on the arm?"

[Mellack]

Do you consider "carried in one hand" as "worn on the arm?"

I would say it is both. It is both strapped on and also has another strap that is held in the hand.

https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/3/39/Make-a-Wooden-Shield-Step-15.jpg/aid140659-v4-728px-Make-a-Wooden-Shield-Step-15.jpg

[Asisreo1]

I would say it is both. It is both strapped on and also has another strap that is held in the hand.

https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/3/39/Make-a-Wooden-Shield-Step-15.jpg/aid140659-v4-728px-Make-a-Wooden-Shield-Step-15.jpg
It probably doesn't come up enough to really matter. However, the wordings "carried in one hand" and "wielding a shield" emphasises it would work much like a weapon, wielded not worn.

Unless you are okay with a player wearing their weapon by duct taping it to their wrist, I'd think going to sleep makes you drop your shield and weapons for all intents and purposes.

[PhoenixPhyre]

For a bunch of reasons, I've considered changing the wording of what happens to when you go to 0 HP. Not the mechanics, just the wording.

No longer are you actually unconscious. Incapacitated, sure. Incapable of acting, right. But not necessarily unconscious as that word is used. Even if you have the unconscious condition mechanically. You can still see the world around you, you might even be able to gasp out a few words (but nothing that requires actual mental focus like casting a spell or triggering an item).

Under this model, 0 HP is just "out of combat"--they can't, under their own power, get back up and fight barring a stroke of luck. This applies to NPCs and PCs as well, although NPCs it usually just gets handwaved.

This solves the thread's issue while also doing a couple other useful (IMO) things:
* NPCs can get their dying curses (verbal only) in.
* PCs can try to encourage others or ask for help, letting them do something instead of just rolling death saves.

[Mellack]

It probably doesn't come up enough to really matter. However, the wordings "carried in one hand" and "wielding a shield" emphasises it would work much like a weapon, wielded not worn.

Unless you are okay with a player wearing their weapon by duct taping it to their wrist, I'd think going to sleep makes you drop your shield and weapons for all intents and purposes.

Shields are different from weapons as they also have a specific rule that they take an action to don or doff. I would probably be willing to let a player similarly attach a weapon to their gauntlet, but it would also have the same restrictions: it would not be able to be removed without an action and that hand cannot be used for anything else. So the better hope they don't need to switch to a missile weapon.

[Sorinth]

For a bunch of reasons, I've considered changing the wording of what happens to when you go to 0 HP. Not the mechanics, just the wording.

No longer are you actually unconscious. Incapacitated, sure. Incapable of acting, right. But not necessarily unconscious as that word is used. Even if you have the unconscious condition mechanically. You can still see the world around you, you might even be able to gasp out a few words (but nothing that requires actual mental focus like casting a spell or triggering an item).

Under this model, 0 HP is just "out of combat"--they can't, under their own power, get back up and fight barring a stroke of luck. This applies to NPCs and PCs as well, although NPCs it usually just gets handwaved.

This solves the thread's issue while also doing a couple other useful (IMO) things:
* NPCs can get their dying curses (verbal only) in.
* PCs can try to encourage others or ask for help, letting them do something instead of just rolling death saves.

I like this, someone gets stabbed in the gut with a sword dropping to 0 HP, and they fall to the ground bleeding out, maybe trying to hold their hands to the wound but unable to really do much besides mumble a few words. It's only if they make their death saves that they finally fall unconscious.

I would maybe even allow them to take certain actions but at the cost of 2 death saves.

[Kane0]

Is one of the first NPCs they meet named Trask?

[Martin Greywolf]

This got me thinking about what it would actually be like for someone to get knocked out, then regain consciousness, while in the middle of a fight.

It's a doozy, I'll tell you that much. Not my proudest set of moments.



For starters, let's consider what it would be like if someone was asleep and managed to sleep through the first few rounds of combat, only to be awoken while the fight was still ongoing. Now, the person waking up would have no idea what was going on. Looking at the surprise rules, surprise doesn't actually need to happen at the start of combat, so it's entirely feasible to have the newly awoken character be surprised during their first round.

If you are expecting trouble, and didn't get drunk before falling asleep, you can be up and ready in a shockingly short amount of time. From the first guy screaming "ATTACK!" in the night to people swarming the pallisade outside, you have maybe a minute if they are particularly clumsy. Best I saw was about two seconds from a dude sleeping against a tree to being upright with a sword in hand.



Now, when people get knocked out, it's normal for them to lose their memory of the moments leading up to the knock out. When they wake up, they're usually confused and disoriented. I'm not sure where we got the idea that we could just heal someone up from 0 and have them spring back to their feet and act immediately. The moment of disorientation seems like it would warrant being surprised for that first round, before they're able to jump back in the fight. Maybe they don't quite remember what's going on, but they can quickly deduce that their friends are fighting.

Eeeeh, not quite. It depends on what knocked you out - if it was dehydration or heatstroke, you're not going to be able to do much of anything in a while. Maybe with a lot of adrenaline, you'll be able to stand on shaky legs and barely defend yourself. What I'm saying is that hydration is important in armor, and I only made this mistake once.

If what knocked you out was a blow, it depends. I got a few of those, the worst one was when I got slammed into the floor during grappling training - I remember how it happened (I got lifted about a meter and a half off the ground and then promptly unlifted on my back), but not the next five or so minutes, and I was pretty shakey. That said, I was apparently able to talk, I just don't remember it. When I came to, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to fight back if I still had adrenaline going.

The second case, and this one happened to me twice, once from a bad halberd hit and once from a fall, is a temporary blackout, maybe a second or two, than you find yourself on the ground and your first thought is "wait, how did I get here?" You can recover from that pretty easily and are good to fight right then (took about 5 seconds, both cases) - hell, I didn't even let go of my spear. If it happens to you though, you should absolutely find the local medical professional (if your "let's hit each other with metal swords" event doesn't have one, rethink your attendance) and tell them what happened. Just in case.


you can wake them up with healing magic.

See, there's the word, healing magic. Depending on how and how bad whatever dropped you was, you may not even register your brief stay at 0 HP-ville. If you got stabbed through the heart and healing fixed it, nothing even affected your head that much, so there's no reason for memory lapses. And if you get a memory lapse so long that you don't remember even generally how you got there, you probably have permanent brain damage.

That's not even going into what is happening during that healing action itself - part of that round could well be the patient getting up a bit and getting his bearings, and six seconds is enough time to get up, pick up whatever weapons you droped and get back to business.

[HappyDaze]

It probably doesn't come up enough to really matter. However, the wordings "carried in one hand" and "wielding a shield" emphasises it would work much like a weapon, wielded not worn.

Unless you are okay with a player wearing their weapon by duct taping it to their wrist, I'd think going to sleep makes you drop your shield and weapons for all intents and purposes.

It takes an action to doff a shield. An unconscious character can't take actions. Therefore a character that falls unconscious is still wearing their shield.

[Tvtyrant]

My rules are: Knocked to 0 or below you fall unconcious, gain a level of exhaustion and can't wake up until a long rest. You don't die until you lose negative your HP, so getting captured or dragged off by creatures is more common while getting knocked down has more force.

[Greywander]

For a bunch of reasons, I've considered changing the wording of what happens to when you go to 0 HP. Not the mechanics, just the wording.

No longer are you actually unconscious. Incapacitated, sure. Incapable of acting, right. But not necessarily unconscious as that word is used. Even if you have the unconscious condition mechanically. You can still see the world around you, you might even be able to gasp out a few words (but nothing that requires actual mental focus like casting a spell or triggering an item).[...]
This is also a good way to do it. In fact, getting out some last words is a very good reason not to have a dying character be knocked out. That said, being awake and aware is, to a degree, a mechanical effect. You can notice things, you can remember what you see or hear. You can even talk, to pass along information. It's not a huge thing, mechanically, but it's not quite nothing.


See, there's the word, healing magic.
Although not quite the point you were making, pointing out that most methods of restoring HP are, well, magic, adds merit to the idea that the character would be able to spring back into action immediately.

Also, thanks for the insightful post. Nothing like getting a first hand account of what some of these types of things are like. Not many people do the things adventurers do regularly, so it can be hard to know for sure what is "realistic".


It takes an action to doff a shield. An unconscious character can't take actions. Therefore a character that falls unconscious is still wearing their shield.
Indeed, a shield is worn, not held. This is the difference between wielding a shield and carrying a shield. You don't get the AC bonus if you're just holding it in your hand, it has to be strapped onto your arm.

[Asisreo1]

It takes an action to doff a shield. An unconscious character can't take actions. Therefore a character that falls unconscious is still wearing their shield.
That's because you didn't doff your shield, you dropped it. The same thing occurs when you drop your weapon rather than sheathe it. It takes an interaction to sheathe but it takes nothing to drop it and you can be forced to drop it.

Dropping something, or having it removed via special means, is not the same as unequipping. Your armor can also be removed without it being doffed via Telekinesis. It only takes an action to remove the enemy's armor since it's an object being worn.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is also a good way to do it. In fact, getting out some last words is a very good reason not to have a dying character be knocked out. That said, being awake and aware is, to a degree, a mechanical effect. You can notice things, you can remember what you see or hear. You can even talk, to pass along information. It's not a huge thing, mechanically, but it's not quite nothing.


Generally, NPCs aren't going to be very aware--their focus is on holding in their guts and trying not to actually die. But yes, they'll know something and might be able to pass it along, if anyone comes in time. Hasn't really come up at the table, though.

At the level I care about, that's a feature not a bug. In fact, for NPCs I even fudge the timing on when they exactly "die". Specifically, "dead" doesn't always mean "spirit's departed, need speak with dead". For me, "dead" means "incapable of being healed, true death is inevitable". But the timing's a bit squishy there. So they can run into, say, the remains of a skirmish and get (minimal) information out of one of the dying people, without necessarily being able to just pop them up to fully-awake-and-aware. The "dying report" or "soldier dying in the medic's arms but gasping out a few last words of warning" is one of those fictional scenarios I like to have in my quiver. And having a hard "1 HP = just fine, 0 HP means dead dead" line makes that impossible. I don't use it very often, and I'd allow a PC who failed all his death saves and wanted to pull something like that (like in the wake of a TPK) the same privilege as long as it made fictional sense.

[Astral Avenger]

It's not strictly relevant to the question, but the title of tbe thread made me think of the Zulu war (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kYC47DYLq2I) part of Monty Python's The Meaning of Life.

More related to the topic at hand, I'd imagine that whatever healing magic was used to revive them would help with their mental state too, thus back in the fight instantly.

[Witty Username]

I don't think disorientation would last very long, maybe a round. I would use blinded or incapacitated(allow movement though) and treat it like a fresh concussion( blurred vision, poor memory of what happened). I think the bigger issue is the lack of any healing options other than pop up healing though. Something like this might make people just not use it, at least in combat.

[Kurt Kurageous]

My personal solution to yoyo healing is the exhaustion mechanic: If you go down and get brought back up you have one level of exhaustion that will go away on your next short rest. If you are brought down multiple times before your next short rest then you keep accruing levels of exhaustion but starting with the second level, they now all (inc. the first) need to be slept off conventionally or Greater Restoration needs to be burned. You can feel heroic without the very gamist issue of yoyo healing.

I briefly used the level of exhaustion thing before, and it was annoying to the players and kinda deadly as well. I really like your take here, a level that can be removed (mercifully) by a short rest. That mercy that gets revoked if you drop twice in the fight. That extends it out a bit more so that getting dropped twice in the adventuring day doesn't carry over into the next. So what if it isn't RAW, maybe one day it will be.

Because of you, I'm bringing it back and doing it your way. I will be waiving the exhaustion for halforc's relentless endurance (among others).