Zaq
2020-09-12, 01:57 PM
I make no secret about loving 3.5 and 4e. One thing I find kind of fascinating is that 4e has an absolute ton of game elements that reward you if your attacks do a certain type of damage (fire, cold, lightning/electricity, radiant, etc.). Like, it's really easy to optimize around a specific damage type, and there's just a wealth of cool toys (feats, paragon path features, items, etc.) that give you benefits if you do so. Whether just flat bonuses to damage, inflicting vulnerability (which does static extra damage every time the target takes damage of the type it's vulnerable to), rider effects (like 4e's Mark of Storm, which lets you inflict forced movement every time you hit someone with a lightning or thunder attack--3.5 would call that electric or sonic), bonuses to range/area, or whatever, it's just a big part of 4e optimization culture to dive into a damage type and roll around in it.
Accordingly, game elements that let you inflict even a minor amount of typed damage as a rider effect tacked onto an ordinary attack are valuable in 4e. The value of a theoretical item that let you do +1 cold damage with every swing isn't that it does +1 damage--it's that suddenly you get to use all of your cold-centric tricks on every affected attack.
Jump back to 3.5. There is... significantly less reward in using typed damage in 3.5 than there is in 4e. In fact, typed damage is usually a liability, since it's easier to resist (or be immune to) typed damage than to untyped damage, generally speaking, and it's also harder to get counters to such resistances. And that's fine. Just different zeitgeists and different system assumptions, after all.
However, because I'm me, I still like thinking about what game elements DO exist in 3.5 that reward you for using a specific type of damage. Feats that trigger when you deal damage of a specific type, or class features that do so, or whatever. (Simply discussing "how do I add a type of damage to an attack or a spell that wouldn't otherwise have it?" is a related but separate topic. Right now I'm more interested in why you'd WANT to add specific damage types.)
So let's brainstorm and just talk about it! Not going in any specific direction with this and not building any particular characters--I just like discussing this stuff. (Big surprise.) Let's start one of my good old stream-of-consciousness lists...
Blistering Spell, PHB2, lets you add extra damage and a penalty to attack rolls and checks to any spell that already has the fire descriptor. (Just gonna say this once: I'm aware of the fact that because of a potential dysfunction in the rules, there is not actually a hard-coded connection between a spell having a given energy descriptor and a spell doing that kind of damage! It's entirely possible to have a spell with the fire descriptor that doesn't deal fire damage and vice versa.)
Flash Frost Spell, also PHB2, deals extra damage with a spell with the cold descriptor and it also turns it into a crowd-control zone.
The Energy aura, Dragon Magic, increases the save DC of your acid, cold, electricity, or fire effects, chosen when you gain the aura.
(Greater) Cold Focus, Frostburn, increases the save DCs of your spells with the cold descriptor.
Frozen Magic, Frostburn, makes spells with the cold descriptor cast at higher CL when the ambient temperature is very low.
Piercing Cold, Frostburn, is kind of an honorable mention because it makes cold spells better, but it actually only removes a weakness of the spell rather than adding a new separate benefit (unless the target is specifically vulnerable to cold).
Snowcasting, Frostburn, can apply the cold descriptor to a spell but can also increase the CL of a spell that already has the cold descriptor (before you use Snowcasting).
Searing Spell, Sandstorm, is the fire version of Piercing Cold (it's technically a little different, but it's the same for the purposes of what we're talking about here).
Fiery Spell, Sandstorm, straight up increases damage dealt by fire spells.
Creaking cacophony, SpC, inflicts vulnerability to sonic damage, thereby making sonic damage more valuable.
Dazzling Energy, Complete Psionic, tacks the dazzled rider onto any single-target power you use that has a specific energy type.
Privileged Energy, Complete Psionic, increases damage dealt by your powers that deal (your choice of one of) cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.
Envoy Cognizance, Complete Psionic, gives you +1 ML when you manifest an energy power matching that of your chosen elemental envoy.
Argent savant, Complete Arcane, gets bonuses to hit and to damage when casting force spells. The class also gives increased AC from force spells that grant AC and grants increased duration with force spells that have a duration. (Honestly it's about the purest example I can find of rewarding you for using an energy type.)
Elemental savant, Complete Arcane, gets bonuses to spell penetration and to save DCs when using their chosen energy type (electricity, acid, fire, or cold).
Most or all reserve feats (mostly Complete Mage) provide +1 CL when casting spells that have a specific descriptor, many of which are related to energy.
Raging flame, SpC, makes fire in the area do more damage, including both nonmagical fire and magical fire.
Slow burn, SpC, makes fire in the area harder to extinguish, though magical fire (not nonmagical fire) deals less damage.
A favorite weird one for me: the dragon spirit cincture, MIC, increases the save DC of your breath weapon if you're holding a magic weapon that deals the same type of damage as your breath weapon.
Instill vulnerability, Dragon Magic, forces a creature to become vulnerable to your choice of acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. (Shame that it's waaaaay late in the game.)
There's a very small number of printed creatures with vulnerability to a specific energy type (mostly cold for things with the fire subtype and vice versa).
Running out of steam here, but I think we've got enough to get started. Some observations:
That's mostly fire and cold. Somewhat disappointing, but not in any way surprising.
That's almost entirely magical and/or psionic. Not a whole hell of a lot to benefit folks who aren't casting. Mostly the Energy Aura in DrM is about as good as it gets, though as I read it, if you're (for example) affected by a cold Energy Aura and using a martial maneuver while wielding a frost weapon, as long as that martial maneuver involves making a normal attack, it would have its save DC increased by Energy Aura, and I'm 100% in favor of that. That's honestly the kind of thing I want.
There are some things that LOOK like they're related, but they're not. Elemental warrior, for example (Planar Handbook), gives you a favored energy type, but it doesn't actually reward you for using it. It makes you resistant to it, lets you add it to your attacks, and so on, but it does NOT give you benefits when you're already doing that type of damage. (Elemental warrior is not the only example; it's just a convenient one.)
While the vulnerability rules exist, they're honestly very hard to invoke in a player-controlled manner. They don't come up frequently and it's very hard to force vulnerability onto someone, mostly requiring high-level magic with very few exceptions.
I left off game elements that trigger when you take damage of a specific type, since that's harder to control unless you're doing a goofy self-harming build.
I'm honestly disappointed by Privileged Energy and Dazzling Energy. They're close to what I like to see, but they're so... underwhelming. Privileged Energy is I guess kind of okay, but Dazzling Energy is just so weaksauce. I was hoping for more like it. It'd be funny if it were part of a package, but standalone, it's one of those "literally no one in history, including the devs when playtesting, has ever spent two feats on this" things.
What else can we dig up? Any cool combos worth pursuing? Any neat tricks or weird interactions out there?
Accordingly, game elements that let you inflict even a minor amount of typed damage as a rider effect tacked onto an ordinary attack are valuable in 4e. The value of a theoretical item that let you do +1 cold damage with every swing isn't that it does +1 damage--it's that suddenly you get to use all of your cold-centric tricks on every affected attack.
Jump back to 3.5. There is... significantly less reward in using typed damage in 3.5 than there is in 4e. In fact, typed damage is usually a liability, since it's easier to resist (or be immune to) typed damage than to untyped damage, generally speaking, and it's also harder to get counters to such resistances. And that's fine. Just different zeitgeists and different system assumptions, after all.
However, because I'm me, I still like thinking about what game elements DO exist in 3.5 that reward you for using a specific type of damage. Feats that trigger when you deal damage of a specific type, or class features that do so, or whatever. (Simply discussing "how do I add a type of damage to an attack or a spell that wouldn't otherwise have it?" is a related but separate topic. Right now I'm more interested in why you'd WANT to add specific damage types.)
So let's brainstorm and just talk about it! Not going in any specific direction with this and not building any particular characters--I just like discussing this stuff. (Big surprise.) Let's start one of my good old stream-of-consciousness lists...
Blistering Spell, PHB2, lets you add extra damage and a penalty to attack rolls and checks to any spell that already has the fire descriptor. (Just gonna say this once: I'm aware of the fact that because of a potential dysfunction in the rules, there is not actually a hard-coded connection between a spell having a given energy descriptor and a spell doing that kind of damage! It's entirely possible to have a spell with the fire descriptor that doesn't deal fire damage and vice versa.)
Flash Frost Spell, also PHB2, deals extra damage with a spell with the cold descriptor and it also turns it into a crowd-control zone.
The Energy aura, Dragon Magic, increases the save DC of your acid, cold, electricity, or fire effects, chosen when you gain the aura.
(Greater) Cold Focus, Frostburn, increases the save DCs of your spells with the cold descriptor.
Frozen Magic, Frostburn, makes spells with the cold descriptor cast at higher CL when the ambient temperature is very low.
Piercing Cold, Frostburn, is kind of an honorable mention because it makes cold spells better, but it actually only removes a weakness of the spell rather than adding a new separate benefit (unless the target is specifically vulnerable to cold).
Snowcasting, Frostburn, can apply the cold descriptor to a spell but can also increase the CL of a spell that already has the cold descriptor (before you use Snowcasting).
Searing Spell, Sandstorm, is the fire version of Piercing Cold (it's technically a little different, but it's the same for the purposes of what we're talking about here).
Fiery Spell, Sandstorm, straight up increases damage dealt by fire spells.
Creaking cacophony, SpC, inflicts vulnerability to sonic damage, thereby making sonic damage more valuable.
Dazzling Energy, Complete Psionic, tacks the dazzled rider onto any single-target power you use that has a specific energy type.
Privileged Energy, Complete Psionic, increases damage dealt by your powers that deal (your choice of one of) cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.
Envoy Cognizance, Complete Psionic, gives you +1 ML when you manifest an energy power matching that of your chosen elemental envoy.
Argent savant, Complete Arcane, gets bonuses to hit and to damage when casting force spells. The class also gives increased AC from force spells that grant AC and grants increased duration with force spells that have a duration. (Honestly it's about the purest example I can find of rewarding you for using an energy type.)
Elemental savant, Complete Arcane, gets bonuses to spell penetration and to save DCs when using their chosen energy type (electricity, acid, fire, or cold).
Most or all reserve feats (mostly Complete Mage) provide +1 CL when casting spells that have a specific descriptor, many of which are related to energy.
Raging flame, SpC, makes fire in the area do more damage, including both nonmagical fire and magical fire.
Slow burn, SpC, makes fire in the area harder to extinguish, though magical fire (not nonmagical fire) deals less damage.
A favorite weird one for me: the dragon spirit cincture, MIC, increases the save DC of your breath weapon if you're holding a magic weapon that deals the same type of damage as your breath weapon.
Instill vulnerability, Dragon Magic, forces a creature to become vulnerable to your choice of acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. (Shame that it's waaaaay late in the game.)
There's a very small number of printed creatures with vulnerability to a specific energy type (mostly cold for things with the fire subtype and vice versa).
Running out of steam here, but I think we've got enough to get started. Some observations:
That's mostly fire and cold. Somewhat disappointing, but not in any way surprising.
That's almost entirely magical and/or psionic. Not a whole hell of a lot to benefit folks who aren't casting. Mostly the Energy Aura in DrM is about as good as it gets, though as I read it, if you're (for example) affected by a cold Energy Aura and using a martial maneuver while wielding a frost weapon, as long as that martial maneuver involves making a normal attack, it would have its save DC increased by Energy Aura, and I'm 100% in favor of that. That's honestly the kind of thing I want.
There are some things that LOOK like they're related, but they're not. Elemental warrior, for example (Planar Handbook), gives you a favored energy type, but it doesn't actually reward you for using it. It makes you resistant to it, lets you add it to your attacks, and so on, but it does NOT give you benefits when you're already doing that type of damage. (Elemental warrior is not the only example; it's just a convenient one.)
While the vulnerability rules exist, they're honestly very hard to invoke in a player-controlled manner. They don't come up frequently and it's very hard to force vulnerability onto someone, mostly requiring high-level magic with very few exceptions.
I left off game elements that trigger when you take damage of a specific type, since that's harder to control unless you're doing a goofy self-harming build.
I'm honestly disappointed by Privileged Energy and Dazzling Energy. They're close to what I like to see, but they're so... underwhelming. Privileged Energy is I guess kind of okay, but Dazzling Energy is just so weaksauce. I was hoping for more like it. It'd be funny if it were part of a package, but standalone, it's one of those "literally no one in history, including the devs when playtesting, has ever spent two feats on this" things.
What else can we dig up? Any cool combos worth pursuing? Any neat tricks or weird interactions out there?