What to do with branch dancer? [3.5, dragon magazine]

[Heavenblade]

Despite bad wording and seemingly weak-ish abilities, this neat prc from dragon is avtually pretty great for a mid-powered melee character.

You can qualify for it with two levels of ranger, and can squeeze in 4 levels before hitting 6 bab, when prcs start to come online. In 6 levels (twf ranger 2/Branch dancer 4), you get -

Poorly worded skill mastery on great skills (move silently, jump, survival, etc.) - which is amazing as a 3rd level ability, and in general great for low levels.
The main draw is the tree weapon - while many of the additional abilities require standing near an actual tree, just having a branch from a still living tree could give you a d10/d10 double exotic weapon with +1 enchantment bonnus - as long as you stand NEAR a part from a living tree, which means no hands.


Later you could probably make a case for entering exotic weapon master with the way the prc is worded, and get some sweet stuff like the flurry ability or some reach for your weapon.

Besides having a great build for an E6 martial character, where would you take this class? Specificallly

1. Where would you go class wise after EWM?
2. How would you use the ability to fight with a "slotless" weapon?
3. How would you manage to get a tree to go around with for your adventure, assuming you would want one?


Very interested to hear your opinions!

[tyckspoon]

That is a bizarre class concept.


3. How would you manage to get a tree to go around with for your adventure, assuming you would want one?

From least to most silly/RAW-abusing, just off the top of my head:

Lots and lots of Feather Tokens: Tree. Bonus if you can find a way to make one reusable.
Take Leadership, get a Treant or other tree-qualifying creature to be your cohort.
Get another kind of plant companion somehow (I'm sure there's a feat or Druid alternate class feature somewhere that allows this), make it a tree critter.
Animate Objects + Permanency a few trees.
Cast Changestaff.
Cast Treeshape, be your own tree. (Alternately, have a companion that has the Share Spells feature and turn your pet into a tree.)
Carry around a bonsai. You just have to be near a living tree, nothing says it has to be big enough to actually hit things with.
Cast Hallucinatory Terrain, try to convince your DM that illusionary trees count.
Carry around an Acorn of Far Travel. Hit things with the branches of and take cover behind the tree that you are always considered to be standing under, regardless of the actual physical distance to said tree.

Edit: wear an amulet of a tree carved of Livewood (Eberron Campaign Setting special material.) Livewood, as the name may suggest, does not die when it's cut down, and remains living wood when worked/shaped/manipulated. Tree, alive. Bonus if it's also an Amulet of Natural Armor or something.

[Heavenblade]

Congrajulations, I think you found the least-broken way to use the acorn of far travel (:

In general, thanks for the feedback - maybe a wild cohort with a template/feat could work, or perhaps one of the full BaB classes that give companions.

I really like the amulet idea, especially causw of the visuals I have in my head (you cause the amulet to create branches in the exact moment you need them, etc.)

[Khatoblepas]

A livewood elvencraft bow would give you a bow, a quarterstaff, and a tree to fight with, good if you want to use Instant Fletching. You can just reach into your own bow and draw as many arrows as you want.

[GrayDeath]

A livewood elvencraft bow would give you a bow, a quarterstaff, and a tree to fight with, good if you want to use Instant Fletching. You can just reach into your own bow and draw as many arrows as you want.

That, with an added Wood Elemental in it, is exactly my (different System) Elven Mages "Anybranch" of Wizardry as I called it.

[SirNibbles]

It says you have to be near a part of a living tree. There is no rule that says the part you have to be near to has to be living. Carry around a regular acorn or a stick from a tree and as long as that tree is alive, you're carrying a part of a living tree. That makes it pretty much free. If your tree dies, pick up another stick in the woods and you're good to go.

Another thing to note:




"Additionally, the branch dancer may use the tree as cover."

Dragon Magazine #310, page 71


Depending on how you manage it, this could be a permanent +4 AC and +2 to certain reflex saves. It also means you can hide anywhere if you always have cover, essentially giving you Hide in Plain Sight.

___

You also get proficiency with all bows, which includes exotic bows, which is nice.

[SangoProduction]

It says you have to be near a part of a living tree. There is no rule that says the part you have to be near to has to be living.

I love it. Plus one.

[Bronk]

Well, for your questions:

1: I'd become a tree based sniper, taking the Targetteer fighter variant from the same Dragon issue for a few perks like dex to damage.

2: I'd use the branch fighting as a backup weapon.

3: I like that acorn idea (acorns can be 'alive' too) and the Acorn of Far Travel idea as well:


It says you have to be near a part of a living tree. There is no rule that says the part you have to be near to has to be living. Carry around a regular acorn or a stick from a tree and as long as that tree is alive, you're carrying a part of a living tree. That makes it pretty much free. If your tree dies, pick up another stick in the woods and you're good to go.

Another thing to note: (snip)

Depending on how you manage it, this could be a permanent +4 AC and +2 to certain reflex saves. It also means you can hide anywhere if you always have cover, essentially giving you Hide in Plain Sight.


It's even better than this! Cover gives you the +4AC and +2 to reflex saves, and protection from attacks of opportunity, but you also get an additional stacking +2AC and +1ref from just being in the same square as a tree.

"Massive" trees already grant cover, and if that counts as improved cover for the Branch Dancer, the cover bonus doubles, you get evasion, and a +10 to hide.

Plus, if you're in the branches of a tree, you gain concealment from those underneath you, granting a +20% miss chance and the ability to make hide checks.

I like the 'bring an acorn and branch with you' ideas because they would let a flying character take advantage of all of these at once...

[lylsyly]

You can qualify for it with two levels of ranger, and can squeeze in 4 levels before hitting 6 bab, when prcs start to come online. In 6 levels (twf ranger 2/Branch dancer 4)


A livewood elvencraft bow would give you a bow, a quarterstaff, and a tree to fight with, good if you want to use Instant Fletching. You can just reach into your own bow and draw as many arrows as you want.

I now know my build for the next E6 game we run. Except I'll be doing Mystic Ranger and not worrying about combat style ;-)

[SirNibbles]

Well, for your questions:

1: I'd become a tree based sniper, taking the Targetteer fighter variant from the same Dragon issue for a few perks like dex to damage.

2: I'd use the branch fighting as a backup weapon.

3: I like that acorn idea (acorns can be 'alive' too) and the Acorn of Far Travel idea as well:



It's even better than this! Cover gives you the +4AC and +2 to reflex saves, and protection from attacks of opportunity, but you also get an additional stacking +2AC and +1ref from just being in the same square as a tree.

"Massive" trees already grant cover, and if that counts as improved cover for the Branch Dancer, the cover bonus doubles, you get evasion, and a +10 to hide.

Plus, if you're in the branches of a tree, you gain concealment from those underneath you, granting a +20% miss chance and the ability to make hide checks.

I like the 'bring an acorn and branch with you' ideas because they would let a flying character take advantage of all of these at once...




Cover can be better or worse than described in Effects of Cover. Other forms of cover are detailed here. Regardless, multiple forms of cover don’t stack—only the best form of cover applies.

Limited Cover
Some objects that don’t occupy a whole square, such as tree trunks and pillars, provide limited cover. If you’re standing in the same square as such an object, you gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves. The presence of such an object doesn’t otherwise affect your fighting space, because you’re using the object to your advantage when you can.

Rules Compendium, pages 38-39


Normally, you need to be in the same square to gain cover, and that cover is limited. Does Branch Dancer's Branch Fighting allow you to gain cover or limited cover by being within 5 feet of a tree?




"As long as she is within 5 feet of some part of a living tree... the branch dancer may use the tree as cover."

Dragon Magazine #310, page 71


It depends on how you read the ruling. If cover means cover, it's +4 AC. If cover means 'some degree of cover' and that ends up being +2 bonus for fighting near a tree, it's +2. I don't see any way of getting both due to it explicitly not stacking.

I'm not sure you could make the argument that the tree could qualify as Improved Cover, regardless of size.





Medium and dense forests have massive trees as well. These trees take up an entire square and provide cover to anyone behind them.

Dungeon Master's Guide, page 87

[Bronk]

Normally, you need to be in the same square to gain cover, and that cover is limited. Does Branch Dancer's Branch Fighting allow you to gain cover or limited cover by being within 5 feet of a tree?


In this case though, you get both cover, and a separate non-cover related bonus just from being in the same square as the tree. They stack because they're both from the tree.



If cover means cover...


Yeah, you can't split too many hairs here.



I'm not sure you could make the argument that the tree could qualify as Improved Cover, regardless of size.


Not much ever indicates 'improved cover' except that it's better than normal cover. With a massive tree, a Branch Dancer gets cover from two sources, can be behind a trunk, isn't impeded by all those branches, and also gets the normal tree bonus. That seems better than normal cover to me. It's really up to the DM though.

[bean illus]

Well, if we go RAW, and don't mind cheese ...

Going past e6.

Elvencraft Bow/staff is a melee weapon. Pick up Ordained Champion 3 to channel any spell with a target that you know. Now you can make trees (no save or resistance) wherever you go, as a ranged attack.

This works even if the DM insists you need to be next to the tree in question. Just make trees.

[SirNibbles]

In this case though, you get both cover, and a separate non-cover related bonus just from being in the same square as the tree. They stack because they're both from the tree.



Yeah, you can't split too many hairs here.



Not much ever indicates 'improved cover' except that it's better than normal cover. With a massive tree, a Branch Dancer gets cover from two sources, can be behind a trunk, isn't impeded by all those branches, and also gets the normal tree bonus. That seems better than normal cover to me. It's really up to the DM though.

Regardless of how much cover it provides, it cannot possibly stack because "multiple forms of cover don’t stack—only the best form of cover applies." You can have Limited Cover, Cover, Improved Cover, or Total Cover from an attack. The highest one applies and, as the rules say, they don't stack.

You get cover just from holding an acorn- because branch dancer says you do- but you can't really get anything more because the tree isn't actually between you and the attack.

If you actually do have a tree between you and the enemy then of course you can get better cover. Being within 5 feet of a tree that gives improved cover doesn't give you any more bonus than a smaller tree based on the way Branch Dancer is written.

[Bronk]

Regardless of how much cover it provides, it cannot possibly stack because "multiple forms of cover don’t stack—only the best form of cover applies." You can have Limited Cover, Cover, Improved Cover, or Total Cover from an attack. The highest one applies and, as the rules say, they don't stack.

However, for trees: "these bonuses don’t stack with cover bonuses from other sources". Luckily, all of these cover bonuses can come from the same tree.



You get cover just from holding an acorn- because branch dancer says you do- but you can't really get anything more because the tree isn't actually between you and the attack.

If you're holding a stick, however, you'd also get branch fighting.

You would get the rest if you were holding an Acorn of Far Travel as well. It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense.



If you actually do have a tree between you and the enemy then of course you can get better cover. Being within 5 feet of a tree that gives improved cover doesn't give you any more bonus than a smaller tree based on the way Branch Dancer is written.

That's when the regular tree rules kick in. Trees are actually pretty amazing in 3.5...

[SirNibbles]

However, for trees: "these bonuses don’t stack with cover bonuses from other sources". Luckily, all of these cover bonuses can come from the same tree.

It doesn't matter if they come from the same tree. The rules are clear, multiple types of cover don't stack. You can get Limited Cover, Cover, Improved Cover, or Total Cover. The highest one applies.

https://i.imgur.com/QiGmQpH.png

Let's explore all the situations and possibilities.

1. There's a massive tree in the way; you have cover with or without Branch Dancer.

2. The massive tree doesn't provide cover because a line drawn from either of the top corners doesn't cross a square or border that provides cover. Branch Dancer gives you cover.

3. Being in the same square as a tree gives you limited cover.

This is where we start having to interpret readings of the rules. The first reading is the simple one: Branch Dancer says it gives you cover for being near a tree so you have cover.

The second reading is that branch dancer gives you the amount of cover a tree would provide for being in the right place, simply by being within 5 feet of that tree. Since this is a small tree which provides limited cover, a Branch Dancer would get limited cover.

The third reading is that branch dancer always gives you limited cover, as is standard for a tree. This is the least-acceptable reading because it doesn't make sense from either RAW or RAI, but it is nonetheless an option.

4. In this situation a normal person gets no cover. A Branch Dancer would get either Cover or Limited Cover, as explained in #3.

5. Again, a normal person gets no cover. Normally, a Branch Dancer is too far away to benefit, so this is where we need an acorn or stick. A Branch Dancer either gets Cover for being with 5 feet of a tree, or Cover for being with 5 feet of a massive tree (if holding a part of a massive tree), or Limited Cover (if holding part of a normal tree), or Limited Cover for being within 5 feet of a tree.

6. No matter what, you end up with Cover in this situation. Massive trees provide cover, and any corner the attacker chooses will make a line that crosses a border which provides cover.

7. Branch Dancer doesn't apply here, but I'm including this scenario for completeness. If the trunk really covers the entire square and there are no bends that open up gaps, there is no line of sight, no line of effect, and thus there is total cover. If there are gaps, it could result in either Cover or Improved Cover, depending on those gaps. It depends on where the trunk begins to narrow or whether it splits. In order of likelihood, I'd say Improved Cover, Total Cover, and finally Cover would be the order.

For example, this tree would probably provide Cover:

https://i.imgur.com/QpdK2E9.png

This one would probably give Improved Cover:

https://i.imgur.com/lCzXmpG.png

Trees with small gaps would give Improved Cover, and trees with no gaps would give Total Cover. Remember that a 1 square foot gap in the 25 square foot plane prevents you from getting Total cover and instead gives you Improved Cover. With a tree narrowing as it goes up, this is easily achievable even with it being 5 feet wide at the base.

[Bronk]

Whoa! That's a giant wall of text. Aside from not taking magic into account and overlooking the possibility of more than one tree at a time, you're missing the main thrust of the rules for improved cover... that it's always a DM's ruling, not something a player can control.

[Blue Jay]

I've always tried to combine branch dancer with te Plant Companion feature from one of the later Dragon issues (I don't have my files at the moment). It requires your DM to buy in with the idea that your plant companion can count as a tree, but then you just use its branches and stay close by to get cover.

One shortcoming is that the text doesn't seem to define your reach with the branches, so it seems like some oddness might need to be ironed out.