Wild Shape or Archery

[ChaosStar]

So, for the Disney expies my 2nd one is Merida. Going Ranger for her but trying to decide between Wild Shape or Archery for her. what do you guys think?

[Nihilarian]

Merida doesnt shapeshift afaik so

[Psyren]

Yeah, it's actually her mom that transforms. And it's very much a curse, i.e. she is slowly losing her humanity over the course of the film while Merida is trying to save her. ("The trailer was very misleadin'!!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iJKKiTNJXQ)) So if authenticity is what you're after, go Ranger focused on archery and have her mother be the animal companion.

[ChaosStar]

Yeah, it's actually her mom that transforms. And it's very much a curse, i.e. she is slowly losing her humanity over the course of the film while Merida is trying to save her. ("The trailer was very misleadin'!!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iJKKiTNJXQ)) So if authenticity is what you're after, go Ranger focused on archery and have her mother be the animal companion.

Main problem with Ranger based Archery is its difficult in 3.5 unless you're doing Swift Hunter and I already have a Swift Hunter build, even though that one is High Seas based while Merida is Forest based. Also it's kind of a headcannon that after the film Merida starts to study the Curse and finds out how to do it without the losing humanity thing.

[Psyren]

Again though, Merida was never a bear, so I'm not sure what you mean by "studying how to do it without the curse."

As for the swift hunter restriction, sorry to hear that - I play Pathfinder primarily where archery is quite good, so I'm not the best at building one in 3.5 only.

I will say however that you don't need to be a ranger at all - be any archery class you want, and then take Wild Cohort for the scaling bear companion.

[ChaosStar]

Again though, Merida was never a bear, so I'm not sure what you mean by "studying how to do it without the curse."

As for the swift hunter restriction, sorry to hear that - I play Pathfinder primarily where archery is quite good, so I'm not the best at building one in 3.5 only.

I will say however that you don't need to be a ranger at all - be any archery class you want, and then take Wild Cohort for the scaling bear companion.

Archery's weakness in 3.5 is due to: 1. Prestige Classes based on Archery sucking. 2. Lack of Ranged Power Attack. 3. Prevalence of DR severely hampering the damage Archers put out. Archer's main source of damage is in number of attacks, so DR severely weakens them. Also already getting Wild Cohort.

In regard to studying the curse, IIRC it was due to a certain place, so she'd go there and study how the curse caused the change. I've seen the movie once and that was a few years ago. I don't watch movies much anymore.

[Psyren]

Well if you're getting Wild Cohort then, that means you can be any archery build you want if Ranger/Swift Hunter is off the table. I don't really have any better suggestions for a 3.5 archer besides that and cleric, but someone else might.

I would also highly recommend asking your GM if you can port in a couple of Pathfinder feats that address the archery weaknesses you mentioned, particularly Deadly Aim (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat/) and Clustered Shots. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat/)

[Ramza00]

1 level dip into Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, or wand with UMD allows you to do both with the great spell Blood Wind.

[ChaosStar]

Well if you're getting Wild Cohort then, that means you can be any archery build you want if Ranger/Swift Hunter is off the table. I don't really have any better suggestions for a 3.5 archer besides that and cleric, but someone else might.

I would also highly recommend asking your GM if you can port in a couple of Pathfinder feats that address the archery weaknesses you mentioned, particularly Deadly Aim (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat/) and Clustered Shots. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat/)

Alright I asked. I'll probably take the Mystic Ranger ACF instead if those feats get approved. Pathfinder stuff is on a case by case basis with him. I really dislike repeating a build. Oh well.

Cinderella was easy and didn't require asking you guys anything. Fey themed Warlock. Gave her the Fey Heritage feats and the Fey Bloodline. Massive DR/Cold Iron with the Warlock class. Not sure who I'm going to build next.

[bean illus]

Main problem with Ranger based Archery is its difficult in 3.5 unless you're doing Swift Hunter ...


Archery's weakness in 3.5 is due to: 1. Prestige Classes based on Archery sucking. 2. Lack of Ranged Power Attack. 3. Prevalence of DR severely hampering the damage Archers put out. Archer's main source of damage is in number of attacks, so DR severely weakens them. Also already getting Wild Cohort.


Yes ... , and no.
It does depend on which sources are allowed. But if everything is allowed then you can do thousands of damage a round.

What are your source limits? Can you use 3.0 material? Unearthed Arcana? Dragon magazine?

If EVERYTHING is on the table, then shooting 8 shots, splitting them to 16, with a 13-20 x5 crit, all crit threats confiming, threatening in melee, AoO with a bow, ignoring armor, bypassing spell resistance, attacking at 1,500 ft without range penalty, and having an arrow for every occasion, are all possible on the same build.

Probably get 5th or 6th level spells too, if you try.

[Rebel7284]

Here is some Archery-related discussion that I started recently.

Never got to making any builds, but maybe it will inspire you as far as what archers can do in 3.5 with a bit of magic. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617695-Arrowsplit-optimization

[Bronk]

Cinderella was easy and didn't require asking you guys anything. Fey themed Warlock. Gave her the Fey Heritage feats and the Fey Bloodline. Massive DR/Cold Iron with the Warlock class. Not sure who I'm going to build next.

Wouldn't that be more for the fairy godmother? Even the Disney version of Cinderella can only talk to mice...

[ChaosStar]

Wouldn't that be more for the fairy godmother? Even the Disney version of Cinderella can only talk to mice...

The fairy godmother is who her pact is with.

[liquidformat]

I Actually have been playing an elven ranger 8/Arcane Archer 2 using Sword of the Arcane Order and Spell Smite feats, shooting Star, and Elven Ranger ACFs. DM let me use Magical Training feat as a wizard level. Knowledge Devotion does a lot for Archers in 3.5 and if you can get Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) you can power attack otherwise Peerless Archer 3 (Silver Marches) gives you power attack. If you can convince your DM to let you use 3.0 version of Order of The Bow Initiate it is way better and a pretty great class.

Otherwise going Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin) is quite good, so are Assassin/Avenger(non evil version), Deepwood sniper (Masters of the Wild) is another very good class choice.

(here is a list of cool bow and arrow (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gLFZfgS5Up_ih1IInYUwb-KJllVlmEVY7sd_lWK_GuY/edit?usp=sharing) stuff, still work in progress)

[Bronk]

The fairy godmother is who her pact is with.

Oh! Well, that does sound fun! I think I would have gone with either a dragon pact or some kind of ancestral heritage...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Artificer with spell storing aurorum dye arrows (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrows-common/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/#:~:text=Benefit%3A%20Firing%20a%20dye%20arrow,coa t%20about%201%20square%20foot.) to add healing and buffs to allies as ranged touch attacks, and regular spell storing arrows to fire at enemies? And instead of being limited to either arcane or divine spells 1/round, you get access to all of them at a rate equal to how many arrows you can put out per round. You just have to prep them beforehand.

And since they're aurorum (or shapesand, come to think of it), you can put them back together after they're fired. And you should be able to add returning, too, since raptor arrows are a thing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Archery's weakness in 3.5 is due to:

Being pretty scattered, source wise.


1. Prestige Classes based on Archery sucking.

Some do, some don't; same as any other archetype.


2. Lack of Ranged Power Attack.

Peerless Archer from Silver Marches gets it at level 3. There's also Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). If you can't get either of these though, that becomes valid. The rarity and obscurity of the ability is admittedly problematic.


3. Prevalence of DR severely hampering the damage Archers put out. Archer's main source of damage is in number of attacks, so DR severely weakens them.

Less so, this. Force from MIC explicitly bypasses DR for a +2 and specialty arrows are cheap. If you're an archer and you're dealing with DR problems, you're doing it wrong or the GM is screwing you on treasure.


I think there was an archery handbook floating around either here or the minmax forum with some pretty good tips. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit:

Pretty sure this was the one I was thinking of: http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=642.0

Although this one also looks okay at a glance: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?269705-Toxophilite-The-Archery-Handbook

[Psyren]

Less so, this. Force from MIC explicitly bypasses DR for a +2 and specialty arrows are cheap. If you're an archer and you're dealing with DR problems, you're doing it wrong or the GM is screwing you on treasure.

It might be a bit harsh to call it "GM screw" if, say, they're running a module with fixed treasure (or low wealth) and little downtime for crafting specialty items.

But one thing you always have control over is your character's feats, which is why Clustered Shots being an option (in PF) is nice.

[Crake]

It might be a bit harsh to call it "GM screw" if, say, they're running a module with fixed treasure (or low wealth) and little downtime for crafting specialty items.

But one thing you always have control over is your character's feats, which is why Clustered Shots being an option (in PF) is nice.

Definitely recommend clustered shots if you're playing 3.pf (and why wouldn't you be leveraging all of that juicy pathfinder content in your 3.5 games and vice versa).

[ChaosStar]

Just going to mention that my DM isn't sticking to WBL, not even half. My current character has a +1 Breastplate, masterwork Shield, a regular Longsword, and a regular Morningstar. We got to Level 5 recently, which allowed me to upgrade my armor and shield from being regular versions. He allows WBL at character creation, but doesn't stick to it during the campaign.

[Rebel7284]

With the right build, you can Wildshape INTO an archer. Planar Shepherd -> Outside Wild Shape -> Arrow Demon

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Might I suggest taking Ancestral Relic ASAP and going for an elvencraft bow of the wintermoon as the base weapon?

Clear out old evil temples and stuff, then sacrifice them with your portable altar.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Crake
Definitely recommend clustered shots if you're playing 3.pf (and why wouldn't you be leveraging all of that juicy pathfinder content in your 3.5 games and vice versa).

My last Pathfinder GM banned Clustered Shots outright. Kind of sucked the fun out of playing a Zen Archer monk.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It might be a bit harsh to call it "GM screw" if, say, they're running a module with fixed treasure (or low wealth) and little downtime for crafting specialty items.

Adamantine; 60gp each
Cold Iron: 40gp each
Alc Silver: 2gp each
Serren: 80gp each
(Un)holy/ anarchic/ axiomatic: 366gp each (okay that one stings a little)
ghost touch: 166 each (if serren isn't available for some reason)

All of those can be found in a village or smaller. Most can be found in a hamlet. It's an odd module that doesn't see a settlement of even that size for huge lengths of time.

"How do you justify such things being in these tiny settlements?" I hear you ask. You don't. Gold caps and settlement liquid assets are part of the game's abstraction. You don't have to justify how a halfling rogue can kill a beast the size of Godzilla with a dagger that's only 4 inches long, you don't have to justify this.



But one thing you always have control over is your character's feats, which is why Clustered Shots being an option (in PF) is nice.

If the GM allows the appropriate source and that feat in particular, sure. The GM reserving veto power over feats is a lot more common than him requiring approval for each one but it's still, ultimately, his call whether -any- option is allowed in the game.

The power shot feature and sneak attack dice from peerless archer really goes a long way on this particular front though. Deepwood sniper and crit-fishing for big damage is another option. These two are not mutually exclusive although power shot and large volleys do require a bit of balancing on the players part.



Just going to mention that my DM isn't sticking to WBL, not even half. My current character has a +1 Breastplate, masterwork Shield, a regular Longsword, and a regular Morningstar. We got to Level 5 recently, which allowed me to upgrade my armor and shield from being regular versions. He allows WBL at character creation, but doesn't stick to it during the campaign.

Oof. That sucks for any character but particularly for archer build. Maybe give him a gentle nudge or offer to roll the treasure tables for him so he only has to figure out where to put it? I roll the treasures for one of my buddies when he GMs because it's such a PITA and he's still fairly new to 3e.

[Soranar]

While arrow demon is a very good way to optimize archery, just wildshaping into a legendary ape isn't half bad either because of the insane STR (30) and you can stay ranger the whole time

Volley archery only requires point blank shot and rapid shot anyway, manyshot and improved manyshot is only necessary if you intend to go the swift hunter route and you don't have a better way to trigger skirmish damage

If you combine this with education + knowledge devotion, you get a more versatile character that can have decent melee in wildshape and retain the ability to wield a bow properly while not wildshaped.

And even education is not strictly necessary

knowledge devotion only needs a few knowledges to work against most enemies, you don't really need them all

nature (you already have it, covers 6 creature types)
dungeoneering (same, covers aberration and oozes)
arcana (you can get it from being a shooting star ranger, covers dragons constructs and magical beasts )

religion (undead)
planar (celestials and fiends)
local (humanoids)

of those last 3, only humanoids show up all the time so I'd pick that one as the knowledge devotion freeby and just put 1 rank in the other 2.

[ChaosStar]

Adamantine; 60gp each
Cold Iron: 40gp each
Alc Silver: 2gp each
Serren: 80gp each
(Un)holy/ anarchic/ axiomatic: 366gp each (okay that one stings a little)
ghost touch: 166 each (if serren isn't available for some reason)

All of those can be found in a village or smaller. Most can be found in a hamlet. It's an odd module that doesn't see a settlement of even that size for huge lengths of time.

"How do you justify such things being in these tiny settlements?" I hear you ask. You don't. Gold caps and settlement liquid assets are part of the game's abstraction. You don't have to justify how a halfling rogue can kill a beast the size of Godzilla with a dagger that's only 4 inches long, you don't have to justify this.

Oof. That sucks for any character but particularly for archer build. Maybe give him a gentle nudge or offer to roll the treasure tables for him so he only has to figure out where to put it? I roll the treasures for one of my buddies when he GMs because it's such a PITA and he's still fairly new to 3e.

My DM is decently experienced. We're technically playing in Spelljammer, but without access to other planes. Our starting town was a hamlet that didn't have access to anything like that. It mostly had regular stuff and very little masterwork. We've been in the capital since 4th level and what we can buy is limited. He says we're limited to Early Middle Ages tech level.

It's kind of weird for me since this is my first campaign in actual D&D and not a video game. Plus were not being told how much experience we're getting, he just tells us when we level up. He's also said that the game is more exploration focused instead of combat focused. Still I feel we aren't getting enough treasure. The most expensive thing we've found are a pair of marble dice costing 400GP, which I refuse to sell cause I like the idea of my character collecting dice. We've also only really been in three dungeons so far.

Sorry I got kind of rambly.

[Psyren]

If the GM allows the appropriate source and that feat in particular, sure. The GM reserving veto power over feats is a lot more common than him requiring approval for each one but it's still, ultimately, his call whether -any- option is allowed in the game.

Restricting items (or heck, just using random loot tables) is a lot more common than restricting feats though. And setting-specific, 3.0 PrCs would be the least common of all.

[bean illus]

My DM is decently experienced. We're technically playing in Spelljammer, but without access to other planes. Our starting town was a hamlet that didn't have access to anything like that. It mostly had regular stuff and very little masterwork. We've been in the capital since 4th level and what we can buy is limited. He says we're limited to Early Middle Ages tech level.


Where are we with this project?

What class, level, abilities do you have? What sources are allowed? What level will you be playing to? The ability to attack multiple times at range can be quite effective, and with a bit of spell / item support even more so. But you do need to cherry pick class levels.

If you can get the DM to allow mystic ranger and complete adventurer, then you can do some pretty cool stuff almost immediately.



Arrow Mind, CAd, p. 143) Divination
Level: R 1, V, S, M, 1 immediate
1 minute/level (D)
Threaten within your melee reach with bow. AoO with bow. You do not provoke AoO.

Guided Shot, CAd, p. 150, Divination
Level: Ranger 1, V, swift
1 round
Ranged attacks take no penalty due to distance, and ignore AC by anything less than total cover.

Listening lorecall CAd, Divination
R 2, V, S, DF, 1 stand
10 minutes/level
+4 insight to Listen. 5 ranks you gain blindsense 30’, 10 gain blindsight instead.
Silence spell or effect negates blindsense or blindsight granted by listening lorecall.



Master of Many Forms has a handbook (https://www.enworld.org/threads/updated-master-of-many-forms-bible-official-wild-shape-rules-may-2006-harzerkatze.471903/), and is also in CAdv. You can get Fly while casting spells and shooting, or high dex / armor class, etc.

You can qualify for MoMF with wild shape ranger, which is in Unearthed Arcana, and can mesh with mystic ranger.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you could get yourself an elvencraft bow of the wintermoon, strength of my enemy (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm#:~:text=Psychometabolism&text=You%20gain%20the%20ability%20to,bonus%20to%20 your%20Strength%20score.) is a fantastic power to keep on it. Strength damage with every hit, and you get up to a +8 enhancement bonus to your Str as a result? And it's only a level 2 power, so having it always activated on your bow would be a fantastic boon, for cheap. And you can always spend more resources later on to boost the manifester level to gain even more Strength. And then you add sizing and morphing to it so it takes the form of a poison ring (Dragon Compendium) when not actively in use, so you keep that enhancement bonus permanently.

[Darg]

Cinderella was easy and didn't require asking you guys anything. Fey themed Warlock. Gave her the Fey Heritage feats and the Fey Bloodline. Massive DR/Cold Iron with the Warlock class. Not sure who I'm going to build next.

While I agree that DR of the same type should stack (absolutely silly that adamantine and armor specialization wouldn't stack for example), the fey bloodline in most circles wouldn't stack with the warlock damage reduction. Unless the group reads Fey Skin as combining them all together. Can it be read like that?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Restricting items (or heck, just using random loot tables) is a lot more common than restricting feats though.

I'm aware. Even acknowledged it to a certain extent.

Random loot isn't really much problem. You hawk it and buy what you want/ need. That game-play loop exists in modern CRPGs, why would anyone expect it to not be a thing in P&P.

In fact, SKyrim does a pretty stellar job of illustrating it.

Go to the "dungeon," kill what's there and take its stuff

Bring that stuff back to town and hawk it; selling different types of loot to different merchants, no big Magic MartTM

Buy what you need from the appropriate merchant; even if it takes weeks of in-game time, checking various merchants over and over until one gets it in

Rinse and repeat ad-nauseum.




And setting-specific, 3.0 PrCs would be the least common of all.

To be fair, peerless archer is in a setting book but is not, itself, tied to the setting. Deepwood sniper is in Masters of the Wild, which is setting agnostic.

Restricting 3.0 content is not unheard of but I don't think it's that common either. 3.0 and 3.5 are fundamentally the same game and the 3.5 DMG advizes just making the small changes necessary to update anything that hasn't been officially updated.

I know essentially nothing about PF source obscurity or the clustered shots feat but apparently at least somebody thought it was too much, judging by Palanan's post.

That's the one where you get to give up all your iteratives for a bonus to attack and damage on the primary one, right? Or you rolled them all but treated it as a single attack and used the number of "hits" as part of the damage calculations?


My DM is decently experienced.

Unfortunately, time spent GMing doesn't do much for easing fear of player agency or discouraging laziness with the more tedious parts of the system, like treasure generation. Not saying that either of those is definitely the problem, as ignorance of WBL's importance to -all- characters is also pretty common.


We're technically playing in Spelljammer, but without access to other planes.

I'm not the foremost expert on Spelljammer but I don't think that works. The astral sea between the crystal spheres is the same thing as the astral plane. I'm not 100% sure that even the phlogiston filled void doesn't count as being a separate plane to the material either.

I get not wanting to deal with the inner and outer planes and their weirdness but if you're not sailing from one world to another at least a little then you're not really playing spelljammer.


Our starting town was a hamlet that didn't have access to anything like that.

It should've. Not a lot of them, necessarily, and not the magical ones but they were below the GP limit and should have been available.


It mostly had regular stuff and very little masterwork.

See now, that makes sense. The 150 for masterwork armor and the 300 for masterwork weapons would've been past the gold cap. Masterwork tools should've been available. Hamlets really are pretty limited in their resources.


We've been in the capital since 4th level and what we can buy is limited.

Here's where I call shenanigans. Nothing that can justifiably be called a capital should lack much of anything within the WBL of 5th and 6th level characters unless the GM bars that thing specifically. It'd be one thing to say you can't find a planar sextant or a bow with three specific, flat-cost enhancements but it's quite another to say you can't get a hold of special material arrows when they're chump-change to the local, presumably fairly cosmopolitan economy.


He says we're limited to Early Middle Ages tech level.

The spelljammers better be awfully tiny ships then. Deep-sea faring vessels, like you'd expect a jammer to be based on, didn't start popping up until the late medieval period, if I'm not mistaken.

I also don't see how that would have any noteworthy effect on special material, alchemical, and magical gear options. None of those things really exist in any historic period.



I'll be the first to admit that the more complex the PCs get the harder it gets to GM for them and that a kitchen sink approach to char-gen can make for some awfully complex characters but just buying some basic magic and special material weapons shouldn't be a concern for any experienced GM.


It's kind of weird for me since this is my first campaign in actual D&D and not a video game.

It's a pretty stark difference, innit? :smalltongue: Lot of fun if you have a good group and don't mind the paperwork though.


Plus were not being told how much experience we're getting, he just tells us when we level up.

Milestone leveling is a thing. I don't care for it but I won't grudge anyone that does. Does cause an issue for certain spells and item crafting. That's easy enough to fix and/or avoid though.


He's also said that the game is more exploration focused instead of combat focused.

That can be done with 3e but it's a curious choice. The lion's share of the rules revolve around the game's combat and the whole of the rules is an utterly massive beast. I wonder if he's tried 5e? It's my understanding that it keeps a lot of the good of 3e but heavily streamlines things.


Still I feel we aren't getting enough treasure. The most expensive thing we've found are a pair of marble dice costing 400GP, which I refuse to sell cause I like the idea of my character collecting dice. We've also only really been in three dungeons so far.

You're definitely not. You're likely to hit the wall soon too. Transitioning from low-level to mid-level, which you'll be doing over the next level or three, you hit the point where meeting system expectations wrt your character's numbers requires level appropriate magical equipment. Has he ever mentioned the term "E6"?


Sorry I got kind of rambly.

's alright. Happens to everybody around here. If I'm known around here at all anymore, it's for great walls of text as I argue my positions on various matters.

[Psyren]

Random loot isn't really much problem. You hawk it and buy what you want/ need. That game-play loop exists in modern CRPGs, why would anyone expect it to not be a thing in P&P.

The LOOP, sure. But magic-mart/material-mart, not always.
And even in Elder Scrolls games, not every town (even every town of a given size) has everything available for purchase.


I know essentially nothing about PF source obscurity or the clustered shots feat but apparently at least somebody thought it was too much, judging by Palanan's post.

It's in Ultimate Combat, which in 3.5 terms would be analogous to Complete Warrior - i.e. setting-agnostic, and pretty expected at any table that's running the game to begin with.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The LOOP, sure. But magic-mart/material-mart, not always.
And even in Elder Scrolls games, not every town (even every town of a given size) has everything available for purchase.

Not at any given moment. Wait long enough and it will show up eventually, most likely in Solitude. And TES' world is -way- less inundated with magic than a typical D&D world. Unique items exist and you have to make it yourself if you want certain combinations in the same item but all of the common items are available for purchase, provided you're of the appropriate level and at the right kind of merchant. Even outside of magic items, almost anything that isn't unique or part of a DLC pack is available if you grind against the shop and wait menus long enough. I've taken a week or two waiting in front of Balimund in Riften until he got those orcish gauntlets of major alchemy but he does eventually get them as long as you're level 36 or higher.


In any case, my point was more that Skyrim's shopping and selling setup is a good illustration of the fact that a large settlement doesn't have to have Magic MartTM to justify being able to buy or sell any particular magic item. If you want something in particular, you spend a little time going from one merchant to another looking for one that has or wants the thing and you'll eventually find one. In that game, you have to be beyond a certain level threshold for certain items and it may take several in-game weeks but you -will- eventually get it. In D&D you're still presumed to be going from one merchant to another and looking around town until you find the thing but you're not generally restricted by level or required to take massive chunks of in-game downtime to do it.

It seems to me that the fact that it all happens "in the background" confuses a lot of people and is a contributing factor to GMs that arbitrarily restrict item availability.

GM: There's no magic mart for you to sell stuff to or buy things from so you don't get a +1 sword unless it's in a treasure dump and if you get 5 of them you're stuck with them.

Me: So, in this entire town of 8k people, there's -no one- that might have a need for a +1 sword? Not a guard, not a soldier, not a mercenary, nothing?

GM: Well, sure but you don't know where to find them.

Me: Can I find a pawn broker who can sit on it until one of them comes to him? I'll sell it to him for half what it's worth. Maybe a quartermaster for the local militia? Same deal.

GM: Well, I guess that makes sense...? Okay, fine.

Me: How common did you say adventurers were again? I can't be the first guy to come up with this idea.

GM: They're pretty common but typically short-lived.

Me: So it's at least possible that same pawn broker may have, say, a +1 buckler that some other adventurer collected but didn't need?

GM: I'm not sure I like where this is going....

Me: I'm just saying, if adventurers are going into dungeons and bringing up treasure but can't sell it, why are they at all common? Seems like a lot of risk for fairly little reward. If they can sell it, why can't I buy it? Or rob a pawn broker to see what kind of magical kit he's got, even if it's not much?

GM: ... I don't have a good argument against that.

Me: I mean, we killed a -lot- of guys with magic stuff in that last adventure. Who's making it all? I know wizards get item crafting feats by default. That stuff's just in circulation in the economy now, albeit as pretty high-ticket items. If this has been going on in this world for a few generations, shouldn't there be a crap-ton of them in circulation from various fallen organizations and highway robberies and failed dungeon delves and all that?

GM: Yes, yes. I suppose that's logical.

Me: So there's no particularly compelling reason I shouldn't be able to buy all kinds of at basic +X to Y bonus items, right?

GM: :smallsigh: Yeah.

Me: Rather than go through this discussion every time we get loot, shouldn't we just use the abstraction suggested on DMG 137 to represent the party shopping around town for merchants and orgs to buy our stuff and sell us what we need? It even explains -why- stuff gets sold at half value, per PHB 112.

GM: ... yeah. Fine. I guess I never really thought about it like this. I'm still reserving the right to veto items that will cause a problem though.

Me: Fair enough.

At least that's how you hope it'll go. It -could- end with the GM just telling you to shut up and accept that magic item trade isn't a thing, logical consistency be damned.

[ChaosStar]

Regarding being limited in buying stuff here's what he said when I was looking for a +1 Heavy Steel Shield last session: you don't find any Heavy Steel Shields but you find a couple of Heavy Wooden Shields and Some light steel shield at +1. apparently the last heavy was bought yesterday. He also apologizes as events have disrupted anymore being made for at least a month even with guild backing.

This was the first time I could go shopping for Magical equipment because I kind of forgot about the 1200gp voucher we got after hitting level 3. Also he said the Spelljammer stuff was related to the origin of the plane we're campaigning in and very few people have knowledge of other Prime Material Planes. That's why I said technically Spelljammer.