Help me build a Greatsword GWM Padsorlock?

[Mercureality]

Hey all,

I'm new to the forum, so apologies if this kind of post is discouraged due to the abundance of guides. Speaking of those, I've read what feels like ALL of them, including all the major padlock/sorlock guides here, but I'm still torn on my build. I'm sure GITP is bored to tears of building padsorlocks, but I could really use your help.


Quick background: The setting is homebrew, but with very few or no homebrew class building rules. Let's assume no UA.

We're starting at 3rd level, my character is Paladin 2/Hexblade 1, will be going Vengeance as an oathbound follower of a goddess that's a variant on the Raven Queen.

Goal: I want to go for a crit-fishing greatsword wielding GWM. No PAM. I don't know how long the campaign will go on for so I want to be online by mid-levels.

Half-Elf

Point Buy:
STR 15 (for Plate)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 12 (for mild skill synergy and RP)
CHA 17

Current Plan:

1 - Paladin 1 Heavy Armor
2 - Hexblade 1 Hexblade features
3 - Paladin 2
4 - Paladin 3 Vengeance Oath
5 - Paladin 4 ASI - Elven Accuracy, 18 CHA
6 - Paladin 5 Extra Attack
7 - Paladin 6 Aura of Protection
8 - Hexblade 2
9 - Hexblade 3 Pact of the Blade, Greater Pact of the Blade

I'm confident that I'm happy with progression to level 9, but here's where the analysis paralysis sets in:

By level 10 or 11, my character will be doing most of what I want him to do in terms of generating advantage and swinging hard with GWM. Not sure where to go from here though. Do I take Paladin levels for my third ASI into CHA, and aim for IDS? I don't value the level 7 Vengeance oath feature very highly, but more spell slots and higher level spells are welcome.

10-Hexblade 4 ASI - GWM OR Paladin 7-11. Gets GWM a level slower, and IDS faster though probably at the end of the campaign.
11+ I can also sacrifice access to IDS and just take Hexblade 4 for GWM at 10, then Sorcerer 11-15+ for access to metamagic and more smite slots? Maybe give up on Sorcerer entirely since I'd be taking it so late and fill up on Paladin or Hexblade? Am I missing anything?

I thought about going Pal 6/Hex 3/Sorc X, but that delays ASIs too much for my envisioned build. I'd be surprised if the campaign goes much beyond level 15, so I'm not terribly concerned with levels or benefits beyond that.

Alternate build ideas are welcome too. I built the way I did because my priority features were: Hexblade 3, Paladin 3, Heavy Armor, Vengeance Oath, Greatsword + GWM. I'd very much like Extra Attack or Thirsting Blade . . . and Aura of Protection to be a team player and mitigate the lack of Warcaster.

[Darthnazrael]

Darkness + Devil's Sight/Shadow Sorcerer's Eyes of the Dark are both great ways to gain the necessary Advantage for this build while Vow of Enmity is down, so I think that's a strong inclusion. Remember that Eyes of the Dark only sees through Darkness if you spent Sorc points on that Darkness, though, so keep Devil's Sight.

Also, there's a lot of easy flavor synergy between a Shadow Sorcerer ("You are a creature of shadow, for your innate magic comes from the Shadowfell itself") and a Hexblade ("You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell").

Do be aware, though, that constantly dropping Darkness on fights can become really unfun for your party-mates, as most of them will usually be similarly screwed over. The more folks in your party with Save-based ways of fighting (Clerics, Bards, and Wizards will usually have a Save cantrip), the better this sort of build fits.

Since you're not spending a feat on PAM, I encourage picking up War Caster to make devastating Booming Blade OAs. War Caster will also help you keep up your Hex/Hunter's Mark.

On that note, there is some argument to be made for either of those two spells. Don't get me wrong: Hex is just plain better than Hunter's Mark in almost all situations, since it buffs your Eldritch Blast damage too (HM is 'weapon attack' only), and its ribbon comes up in more situations. But Hunter's Mark is almost just as good, and more importantly, is auto-prepared for you as a Vengeance Paladin anyways. So if you intend to avoid ranged combat where possible, you could forgo Hex in favor of a different Warlock spell, since you already bought the knock-off version at Paladin 3.

[Mercureality]

Darkness + Devil's Sight/Shadow Sorcerer's Eyes of the Dark are both great ways to gain the necessary Advantage for this build while Vow of Enmity is down, so I think that's a strong inclusion. Remember that Eyes of the Dark only sees through Darkness if you spent Sorc points on that Darkness, though, so keep Devil's Sight.

Also, there's a lot of easy flavor synergy between a Shadow Sorcerer ("You are a creature of shadow, for your innate magic comes from the Shadowfell itself") and a Hexblade ("You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell").

Do be aware, though, that constantly dropping Darkness on fights can become really unfun for your party-mates, as most of them will usually be similarly screwed over. The more folks in your party with Save-based ways of fighting (Clerics, Bards, and Wizards will usually have a Save cantrip), the better this sort of build fits.

Since you're not spending a feat on PAM, I encourage picking up War Caster to make devastating Booming Blade OAs. War Caster will also help you keep up your Hex/Hunter's Mark.

On that note, there is some argument to be made for either of those two spells. Don't get me wrong: Hex is just plain better than Hunter's Mark in almost all situations, since it buffs your Eldritch Blast damage too (HM is 'weapon attack' only), and its ribbon comes up in more situations. But Hunter's Mark is almost just as good, and more importantly, is auto-prepared for you as a Vengeance Paladin anyways. So if you intend to avoid ranged combat where possible, you could forgo Hex in favor of a different Warlock spell, since you already bought the knock-off version at Paladin 3.

Thanks for the reply, and I appreciate the tips, especially the distinction between Hex and Hunter's Mark! I completely missed that Hex didn't apply to spells and I'd originally planned to forgo Hex until I picked up more levels in Hexblade since HM is prepped for free. I might reconsider that now since I'll likely be taking Agonizing Blast for lack of a more appealing option.

I'll probably depend mostly on flanking and VoE for advantage initially, so as to avoid irritating my party mates--we have a sword and board fighter, monk, rogue, and bard so there's a lot of melee synergy. Too much maybe, we'll see. I like Devil's Sight + Darkness combo more for blaster locks who can tuck themselves out of the way of the party to unleash their shenanigans.

Warcaster was going to be my ASI after 20 CHA if we leveled that high. I de-prioritized it for this build because without PAM and possibly Sentinel, OAs prooobably won't be as common.

If I end up going Sorc at all, either Shadow or Divine Soul will basically be mandatory since all this power spills forth directly from his goddess. He was a relatively unremarkable, broken shell of a man who'd failed his people and lost everything. She took a personal interest (or took advantage, depending on your perspective), picked him up and is forging him into an instrument of her will. For better or worse.

What would you do with levels 10+ for this build? Would you bother going to 11 in Paladin for IDS or dive straight into Sorc after that last level of Hexblade?

[Skylivedk]

Thanks for the reply, and I appreciate the tips, especially the distinction between Hex and Hunter's Mark! I completely missed that Hex didn't apply to spells and I'd originally planned to forgo Hex until I picked up more levels in Hexblade since HM is prepped for free. I might reconsider that now since I'll likely be taking Agonizing Blast for lack of a more appealing option.

I'll probably depend mostly on flanking and VoE for advantage initially, so as to avoid irritating my party mates--we have a sword and board fighter, monk, rogue, and bard so there's a lot of melee synergy. Too much maybe, we'll see. I like Devil's Sight + Darkness combo more for blaster locks who can tuck themselves out of the way of the party to unleash their shenanigans.

Warcaster was going to be my ASI after 20 CHA if we leveled that high. I de-prioritized it for this build because without PAM and possibly Sentinel, OAs prooobably won't be as common.

If I end up going Sorc at all, either Shadow or Divine Soul will basically be mandatory since all this power spills forth directly from his goddess. He was a relatively unremarkable, broken shell of a man who'd failed his people and lost everything. She took a personal interest (or took advantage, depending on your perspective), picked him up and is forging him into an instrument of her will. For better or worse.

What would you do with levels 10+ for this build? Would you bother going to 11 in Paladin for IDS or dive straight into Sorc after that last level of Hexblade?


You can get double smites and auto prone with hex 5.

So Pala 6, Hex 5 and by then I'm not sure Sorc is worth it... You get haste from Vengeance anyway at 9 and you can already have Shield and Mirror Image from Hex. 10 is Aura of Courage, 11 is IDS, 13 is Greater Steed... In my experience, movement is your great limiter in tier 3 and 4 with GWM. If magic items are abundant this is naturally less of an issue.

What do you want from Sorc? I went through similar considerations when I played my Hexblade, but didn't really find Sorc worth it before 18-20. Of course, I couldn't smite with those slots. Quicken is pretty expensive and you have quite a lot of bonus actions already (Hexblade's Curse, Hex/Hunter's Mark, GWM proc, misty step).

[ThatoneGuy84]

I only really love Sorc for quicken. But Crit-Fishing Nova build I much prefer Whisper Bard.
5 levels Of bard will give you Short rest recovery Inspiration, which can fuel Mini-smites for 3d6 Dmg.
(Long rest smites from 3-5)
Really depends on the Partys adventuring days ect.

Everything else seems good to me in your build.

[bid]

You realize your greatsword cannot use Cha until level 9, right?
Hexwarrior doesn't work for 2-handers without pact of blade.

[Mercureality]

You can get double smites and auto prone with hex 5.

So Pala 6, Hex 5 and by then I'm not sure Sorc is worth it... You get haste from Vengeance anyway at 9 and you can already have Shield and Mirror Image from Hex. 10 is Aura of Courage, 11 is IDS, 13 is Greater Steed... In my experience, movement is your great limiter in tier 3 and 4 with GWM. If magic items are abundant this is naturally less of an issue.

What do you want from Sorc? I went through similar considerations when I played my Hexblade, but didn't really find Sorc worth it before 18-20. Of course, I couldn't smite with those slots. Quicken is pretty expensive and you have quite a lot of bonus actions already (Hexblade's Curse, Hex/Hunter's Mark, GWM proc, misty step).

Reasons for Sorcerer: faster spell slot progression and Font of Magic for more smites. Quickened Spell for emergencies and either Twinned Spell to make my buffs more valuable to the party or Extended Spell to make my spell slots stretch a little further. A more diverse spell list, especially stuff like Spirit Guardians if I go Divine Soul. Some AoE capability from higher spell slots. Sorcerous Origin features aren't a priority, but some of them are quite good.

It seems to offer a lot, but I haven't played at tier 3 in 5e yet so your hands-on experiences are informative.

I am worried that I'd be close to the level this game is going to end up terminating at before I get most of the features that make Sorcerer compelling. If I abandoned Sorcerer completely, is Paladin 11 for IDS worth it? Would it make more sense to stop at 6, and just keep taking Hexblade levels?

Hex Armor and the extra invocations start to look pretty attractive, especially stuff like Relentless Hex. I'd probably never get high enough for Lifedrinker though.


I only really love Sorc for quicken. But Crit-Fishing Nova build I much prefer Whisper Bard.
5 levels Of bard will give you Short rest recovery Inspiration, which can fuel Mini-smites for 3d6 Dmg.
(Long rest smites from 3-5)
Really depends on the Partys adventuring days ect.

Everything else seems good to me in your build.

That's an awesome suggestion. I'll give this approach more thought, since it can work with who this character was before their divine transformation.


You realize your greatsword cannot use Cha until level 9, right?
Hexwarrior doesn't work for 2-handers without pact of blade.

I'm aware. I'd be sword and board until 9. Planning to make graduating to the pact weapon greatsword an RP milestone. I know this is an 'optimization' thread, but I'm making the choice to go greatsword/GWM for flavor and fun. I know either staying sword and board dipping only 1 level of Hexblade or going PAM are probably better choices from a raw power perspective.

[bid]

I'm aware. I'd be sword and board until 9. Planning to make graduating to the pact weapon greatsword an RP milestone.
Nice.

Will you take defense style at paladin 2, or you don't care to lose dueling style's bonus?

[Mercureality]

Nice.

Will you take defense style at paladin 2, or you don't care to lose dueling style's bonus?

Defense seems like the most viable option. It's either that or Great Weapon Fighting. With a relatively high crit rate from Hexblade's Curse and Elven Accuracy, GWF becomes slightly more attractive than it usually would be, but I wouldn't get any benefit from it until 9, and I think the consistent, reliable +1 AC is always good.

[Skylivedk]

Reasons for Sorcerer: faster spell slot progression and Font of Magic for more smites. Quickened Spell for emergencies and either Twinned Spell to make my buffs more valuable to the party or Extended Spell to make my spell slots stretch a little further. A more diverse spell list, especially stuff like Spirit Guardians if I go Divine Soul. Some AoE capability from higher spell slots. Sorcerous Origin features aren't a priority, but some of them are quite good.

It seems to offer a lot, but I haven't played at tier 3 in 5e yet so your hands-on experiences are informative.

I am worried that I'd be close to the level this game is going to end up terminating at before I get most of the features that make Sorcerer compelling. If I abandoned Sorcerer completely, is Paladin 11 for IDS worth it? Would it make more sense to stop at 6, and just keep taking Hexblade levels?

Hex Armor and the extra invocations start to look pretty attractive, especially stuff like Relentless Hex. I'd probably never get high enough for Lifedrinker though.



That's an awesome suggestion. I'll give this approach more thought, since it can work with who this character was before their divine transformation.



I'm aware. I'd be sword and board until 9. Planning to make graduating to the pact weapon greatsword an RP milestone. I know this is an 'optimization' thread, but I'm making the choice to go greatsword/GWM for flavor and fun. I know either staying sword and board dipping only 1 level of Hexblade or going PAM are probably better choices from a raw power perspective.

I ended up going pure Hexblade, but otherwise I think 13/14 Hex is a good option. Forcecage and Master of Hexes are both worthwhile capstones. One is one of the best combat spells in the game and the other keeps your crit fishing and damage reducing Hexblade's Curse up all the time.

I ended up deciding to go for Sorcerer for the last 3 levels so I could get Extend and Distant. Distant mostly to cancel dispel magic (losing Foresight/True Polymorph really hurts) and extend to have Foresight last all day/make some Planar Binding easier. The 3 SR slots at level 11 are a very serious buff

[Mercureality]

I ended up going pure Hexblade, but otherwise I think 13/14 Hex is a good option. Forcecage and Master of Hexes are both worthwhile capstones. One is one of the best combat spells in the game and the other keeps your crit fishing and damage reducing Hexblade's Curse up all the time.

I ended up deciding to go for Sorcerer for the last 3 levels so I could get Extend and Distant. Distant mostly to cancel dispel magic (losing Foresight/True Polymorph really hurts) and extend to have Foresight last all day/make some Planar Binding easier. The 3 SR slots at level 11 are a very serious buff

I like the idea of many smites too much to go full Hexblade, but I thought about it. Everyone makes much of how front-loaded Hexblade is (and it definitely is), but there's so much fun, cool stuff packed into that class the whole way up. The levels of Paladin work better for the RP in this case though, and, as the victim of having failed so, so many high likelihood saving throws, I want to experience the majesty of Aura of Protection.

I'm surprised by Distant though. Did it work the way you'd hoped it would?

[Skylivedk]

I like the idea of many smites too much to go full Hexblade, but I thought about it. Everyone makes much of how front-loaded Hexblade is (and it definitely is), but there's so much fun, cool stuff packed into that class the whole way up. The levels of Paladin work better for the RP in this case though, and, as the victim of having failed so, so many high likelihood saving throws, I want to experience the majesty of Aura of Protection.

I'm surprised by Distant though. Did it work the way you'd hoped it would?

You can also definitely go Paladin 11-13. IDS is slightly better than life drinker since you have Elven Accuracy. Personally, I just really like Forcecage and Soul Cage combined extremely well with Synaptic State (no line of sight requirement meant I could have enemies start bleeding brains with walls in between us).

Sadly I didn't get to use Distant Counterspell because the campaign ended and one of the players didn't enjoy high levels so we decided to try something new in that group (Sci-Fi with Fate Core). I was challenged by Dispel Magic in our last encounters so I could definitely see the use. I wasn't sure about Extend vs Quicken either. Dropping Synaptic State/Dimension Door/Forcecage/Banishment and a full Attack in the same round did have its own appeal and due to our grittier rest rules, Foresight was less strong and I might have opted for True Polymorph to build a dragon army.