Arcane/divine crossover themes

[MrStabby]

So we have had, either in books or UA, arcana cleric, divine soul sorcerer and the Theurge. Each representing a thematic take on a divine/arcane hybrid.

To be honest I never thought that thematically it was that rich a niche anyway, but that aside...

Which of these do you think is thematically stronger - and which do you think is mechanically stronger?

Also, why do you think this theme is so common compared to other class hybrids? Why not a druid class with access to some bard spells? An eldritch wizard with a warlock theme overlap?

For the others... nature cleric is a thematic overlap between druid and cleric. I get that there are things like certain domains that draw heavily from the spells of other classes, whilst having a bit of a different theme.

[Waazraath]

So we have had, either in books or UA, arcana cleric, divine soul sorcerer and the Theurge. Each representing a thematic take on a divine/arcane hybrid.

To be honest I never thought that thematically it was that rich a niche anyway, but that aside...

Which of these do you think is thematically stronger - and which do you think is mechanically stronger?

Also, why do you think this theme is so common compared to other class hybrids? Why not a druid class with access to some bard spells? An eldritch wizard with a warlock theme overlap?

For the others... nature cleric is a thematic overlap between druid and cleric. I get that there are things like certain domains that draw heavily from the spells of other classes, whilst having a bit of a different theme.

Interesting questions.

To start, I often skip UA, so don't know the Theurge. For the other two: thematically they are both cool afaic. Both a cleric of the magic gods as a sorcerer with powers from divinly connectet ancestors makes sense. Mechanically: Arcana cleric, easily. Cleric is a wonderful chasis, this is an above average subclass with nice features, interesting new spells and options. The lvl 17 feature is almost broken good, add a wizard level of 6 7 8 and 9th level to spells known - with wish you can suddenly get a greater steed, simulacrum, and whatsnot. While the divine soul sorcerer - well, it has been discussed on this forum a few times last weeks. I'm solidly in the camp that says "lots of extra spells on your spell list" is of little worth when your spells known is fewest in the game. Yes, you get nice new options, but at the cost of other very good options.

What I miss in your post: the bard. In 3.x, the bard was arcane, but had a bit of a hybrid spell list, between divine and arcane. In 5e, the difference between arcane and divine as good as dissappeared from the fluff, so the bard, who kept his hybrid list, is a nice go between. Furthermore, the celestial warlock fills a similar niche in my opinion.

As for what hybrids are most common: I think the gish wins hands down, in older editions but definitely in 5e, with a number of fighter/caster hybrids out of the box (from EK being a martial with a little casting till bladesinger being a wizard with a little fighting). Next to that, there are indeed the cleric subclasses (and land druid variants) that give wizard spells, and there is as mentioned the bard that overlaps. Of course, 3.x had a gazillion prestige classes that crossed druid/bard, psion/wizard, wizard/cleric, binder/wizard, warlock/wizard, etc. etc. etc. They were all pretty common, and aside from the gish, I don't think the Theurge was more common than any of the others.

[Unoriginal]

So we have had, either in books or UA, arcana cleric, divine soul sorcerer and the Theurge. Each representing a thematic take on a divine/arcane hybrid.

There's also the Celestial Warlock.



Which of these do you think is thematically stronger - and which do you think is mechanically stronger?

Thematically I love the Divine Soul Sorcerer and Celestial Warlock.


An eldritch wizard with a warlock theme overlap?

That would be arcane/arcane, though.

[ImproperJustice]

I think it’s a nice idea that a Cleric dedicated to truth or knowledge would want to unravel arcane secrets via magic.

Or alternatively, a scholar or student of magical science see that Divine power is real and bears further study, would dive headfirst into a relationship with Mystra per se.


Bard magic could mix with anything, and kinda already does.

Substitute an interest in natural law, for divinity in the thought process above for combining Druid magic and Arcane.

Sorceror / Wizard makes sense that someone from a magical bloodline wants to know more about their natural gifts and wants training or decides the training is holding them back.

Fun food for thought all the way around.

[Man_Over_Game]

So we have had, either in books or UA, arcana cleric, divine soul sorcerer and the Theurge. Each representing a thematic take on a divine/arcane hybrid.

To be honest I never thought that thematically it was that rich a niche anyway, but that aside...

Which of these do you think is thematically stronger - and which do you think is mechanically stronger?

Also, why do you think this theme is so common compared to other class hybrids? Why not a druid class with access to some bard spells? An eldritch wizard with a warlock theme overlap?

For the others... nature cleric is a thematic overlap between druid and cleric. I get that there are things like certain domains that draw heavily from the spells of other classes, whilst having a bit of a different theme.

I feel that the difference between "Magic" and "Religion", from the DnD universe, is understanding vs. willpower.

And a Wizard knows that a Cleric can use magic from a God. There is a reason that that is happening, and that reasoning could be translated into something resembling an understanding.

However, can the reverse also be true?

Does an Arcana Cleric understand how a Wizard tugs on the aspects of magic to warp it to its will? I'd probably say "No", as 'understanding' isn't a Cleric concept of magic.



So, for me, it makes more sense for a Wizard to cast Cleric magic than it does for a Cleric to cast Wizard magic.


You can "understand" Willpower as a cosmic force, but can you "Will" the power of understanding? Technically, this is done as a Knowledge Cleric, but I'm not sure if that's the same concept an Arcana Cleric is going for.

[Unoriginal]

I feel that the difference between "Magic" and "Religion", from the DnD universe, is understanding vs. willpower.

And a Wizard knows that a Cleric can use magic from a God. There is a reason that that is happening, and that reasoning could be translated into something resembling an understanding.

However, can the reverse also be true?

Does an Arcana Cleric understand how a Wizard tugs on the aspects of magic to warp it to its will? I'd probably say "No", as 'understanding' isn't a Cleric concept of magic.



So, for me, it makes more sense for a Wizard to cast Cleric magic than it does for a Cleric to cast Wizard magic. You can "understand" Willpower as a cosmic force, but can you "Will" understanding?

A Wizard learns how to "pluck the Weave"/affect a small part of the background fantasy field via cheatcodes in order to produce the desired effects. It's something that can be understood without being personally capable of the fact, like someone could understand what a surgeon needs to do to perform open-heart surgery even if they don't have the training to pull it off themselves.

Meanwhile, a Cleric is being allowed to perform miracles by something bigger than any mortal. Most of the time it is by an entity which gains power through worship, sometime it is a concept which people believes in, but either way understanding how said "something" works under the hood is much harder than understanding how a wizard's spell work.

And the Cleric being chosen is based on the entity or concept just... believing they're the right person for having those miracles. Which is a complex interpersonal relationship where one of the participant might not even be a person, yet has access to a cosmic perspective on the world and what is happening, sometime on several worlds at once.

I would say it's much more likely for an Arcana Cleric to understand how wizardry work, as they're generally pretty hype about the concept of arcane magic and are willing to study it, than for a Wizard to understand the details on how a god's influence on the world work and how it translates on someone being able to perform miracles. Especially because no one with a mortal's perspective quite understand how a god's influence work.

[Daracaex]

I think crossing arcane and divine is so popular because it's the least explored combination of the original four classes of D&D. The game started with only the fighting man, the magic-user, the priest, and only a bit later the thief. Since then, every new class has been variants or combinations of these. Looking at the modern base classes, Druids are kind of the class between wizards and clerics (divine caster but with a good selection of more damaging spells), but a very different flavor means there still feels like a hole.

[Waazraath]

I think crossing arcane and divine is so popular because it's the least explored combination of the original four classes of D&D. The game started with only the fighting man, the magic-user, the priest, and only a bit later the thief. Since then, every new class has been variants or combinations of these. Looking at the modern base classes, Druids are kind of the class between wizards and clerics (divine caster but with a good selection of more damaging spells), but a very different flavor means there still feels like a hole.

How about bards?

[Daracaex]

How about bards?

They've always been somewhere between everything, haven't they? If I remember correctly, when they were first introduced, you needed to be a bunch of classes to become a bard including fighter, thief, and druid. These days, nothing feels particularly divine about bards to me aside from them getting some healing spells, but they still range somewhere between rogues, fighters, and mages depending on build.