Shelzari Knife-fighter good or bad?

[Blazeteck]

The Shelzari Knife-Fighter is a class ive always liked. I like the concept of a knife fighter and i feel this class really did the best out of any available options for getting the most out of the concept. The thing im having trouble figuring out is if its better than other options for a dual wield class.

My dm was getting a bit burnt out on the traditional style D&D setting and wanted a change of pace so decided to run an Oriental Adventures game. He told us its lvl 14 gestalt. i figured it would be a good time to try the class out so i paired it with the Swordsage. On one side ive got Sword sage 6 - Blood claw master 5 - tempest 3. On the other side its Fighter 4 - Shelzari Knife-Fighter 10. Seems pretty good on paper but the thing is i have never really played a game that went past lvls 7-8 so i have no comparison for whats good at the mid teens. Also ive read before that daggers for a fighter type class just dont optimize well. I was thinking that the prestige kinda makes up the difference.

Its a bit hard to find the Shelzari Knife-Fighter online as its in an odd book, Shelzar: City of Sins

{scrubbed}

[Blackhawk748]

I've literally never heard of this class so congrats on showing me something new

[jdizzlean]

how do you qualify for it? requires BAB +6, and you're taking it at lvl 5?

[Venger]

It's from one of those sword and sorcery third party books. It is a really, really crappy prc. Five feat taxes for a couple of minor static bonuses, bonus feats, and weapon properties? Yikes.

Even if you want to stick to being a twfing knife fighter, you would probably be better off with something like invisible blade. If you're twfing, you want some source of precision damage. Overall what is your preferred combat style and what kinds of powers do you want your guy to have?

[Blackhawk748]

It's from one of those sword and sorcery third party books. It is a really, really crappy prc. Five feat taxes for a couple of minor static bonuses, bonus feats, and weapon properties? Yikes.

Even if you want to stick to being a twfing knife fighter, you would probably be better off with something like invisible blade. If you're twfing, you want some source of precision damage. Overall what is your preferred combat style and what kinds of powers do you want your guy to have?

Ah, that would be why. Yes, those are very, very hit and miss books. The good is great but the bad is truly awful.

If you want to TWF with knives either go Master Thrower, Invisible Blade, Assassin/Avenger, or go be a Warblade or Swordsage. Or mix and match a bit.

[Blazeteck]

how do you qualify for it? requires BAB +6, and you're taking it at lvl 5?

my DM lowered the rquirement to qualify for it. thats it.

[Blazeteck]

It's from one of those sword and sorcery third party books. It is a really, really crappy prc. Five feat taxes for a couple of minor static bonuses, bonus feats, and weapon properties? Yikes.

Even if you want to stick to being a twfing knife fighter, you would probably be better off with something like invisible blade. If you're twfing, you want some source of precision damage. Overall what is your preferred combat style and what kinds of powers do you want your guy to have?

i was trying to make a character thats more of the upfront fighter type. just a dexterous dual wielding fighter. i wasnt trying to be some roguish type coming in for flanking and backstabs. That stuff aint manly.

[Efrate]

If you are TWF without bonus dice, you need to make up damage somehow. Otherwise especially as a TWF in gestalt doing maybe 6d4 + 12 damage or so is not going to cut it.

You can go bonkers into iajutsu focus with a LOT of daggers I guess, or change to a DFI bard on some side. Or just bard, cause +x on all hit and damage will cover some ground. You need some source of extra damage on all those attack, which likely 4 of will hit consistently. Or stack bleeding, or negative levels or something, else like a level 1 barb/5 fighter fighter with power attack and a great sword probably outdamages you.

Blood storm blade and such might get you there. If your DM allows pathfinder deadly agility is a start so you can ignore strength and pump dex.

Dunno if it's in OA bit maybe in rokugon there might be a hare clan bushi that gets some knife stuff. Or a mantis or scorpion.

I played regular l5r not the dnd horribleness so IDK.

[Blackhawk748]

i was trying to make a character thats more of the upfront fighter type. just a dexterous dual wielding fighter. i wasnt trying to be some roguish type coming in for flanking and backstabs. That stuff aint manly.

Ok, then we got you several routes to go on this build:

Warblade specializing in Tiger claw. This is the most direct and simplistic, but it gets a bit boring.

Fighter/Rogue/Invisible Blade. This, while using Sneak Attack, is actually just feinting and doing other dueling tricks to make it work. It's reasonably frontline.

Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Fighter. Swashbuckler is for Int to Damage, Swordsage is for a Shadowhand Stance fo get Shadowblade for Dex to damage, and then with Fighter you can take Hit and Run from Drow of the Underdark for Dex to damage again vs Flatfooted opponents. Also you still have Strength to damage. Is this as good as Sneak attack? No, because you can do this AND have sneak attack, but this works fine.

[Blazeteck]

If you are TWF without bonus dice, you need to make up damage somehow. Otherwise especially as a TWF in gestalt doing maybe 6d4 + 12 damage or so is not going to cut it.

You can go bonkers into iajutsu focus with a LOT of daggers I guess, or change to a DFI bard on some side. Or just bard, cause +x on all hit and damage will cover some ground. You need some source of extra damage on all those attack, which likely 4 of will hit consistently. Or stack bleeding, or negative levels or something, else like a level 1 barb/5 fighter fighter with power attack and a great sword probably outdamages you.

Blood storm blade and such might get you there. If your DM allows pathfinder deadly agility is a start so you can ignore strength and pump dex.

Dunno if it's in OA bit maybe in rokugon there might be a hare clan bushi that gets some knife stuff. Or a mantis or scorpion.

I played regular l5r not the dnd horribleness so IDK.

how much damage per hit should i be doing before i am doing a good amount then? As it stands now I have 7 attacks per round each of them doing (after enhancements etc.) 1d4 + 12 + 3d4(Puissant Strike) + Flaming burst and shocking burst. i crit on a 9-20 so itll be 55% of the time adding the extra d10 from the flaming and shocking burst enhancements. along with 2d6 if i get rend by hitting with both weapons on the same target. is this still not a good amount?

[Blazeteck]

Ok, then we got you several routes to go on this build:

Warblade specializing in Tiger claw. This is the most direct and simplistic, but it gets a bit boring.

Fighter/Rogue/Invisible Blade. This, while using Sneak Attack, is actually just feinting and doing other dueling tricks to make it work. It's reasonably frontline.

Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Fighter. Swashbuckler is for Int to Damage, Swordsage is for a Shadowhand Stance fo get Shadowblade for Dex to damage, and then with Fighter you can take Hit and Run from Drow of the Underdark for Dex to damage again vs Flatfooted opponents. Also you still have Strength to damage. Is this as good as Sneak attack? No, because you can do this AND have sneak attack, but this works fine.

I have the tome of battle book and im just not seeing anything from the shadow hand section to give dex mod to damage.

[gorfnab]

I have the tome of battle book and im just not seeing anything from the shadow hand section to give dex mod to damage.
What you're looking for is the Shadow Blade feat, page 32.

Also here is my go-to dagger fighting build as it can function well in melee and range.


Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven (CoR), Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler - Arcane Stunt ACF (CM)
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade (ToB)
7. Swashbuckler - (For Insightful Strike)
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310) {Vital Aim}, Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DotU - if your DM is lenient and lets it mix with Targeteer),
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage - (for Assassins Stance)
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Palm Throw}
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower - {Thrown Weapon Trick: Two With One Blow}
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot}
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

*If you don't want or need Improved Precise Shot, you could potentially change the feat order by taking Rapid Shot at 9th level and take the Arrow Swarm ability of Targeteer. This moves Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 15th level and Great Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 18th. While this will make you initially a bit less effective in melee and range, once you hit 15th level it basically evens out especially when considering the Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot.*

For throwing builds you need to look into ways to either carry enough daggers (not so good option) or magically generate an infinite supply of daggers (better option). There are three items that can work well for dagger throwing builds with some minor DM tweaking. The first is the Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC). The main change being changing the javelins to daggers (with maybe a corresponding change in damage from d6 to d4). The second item is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC). It can produce daggers, but only 1 per round because of its Swift action activation. The change here would be changing Swift action to Free action. The third item is the Quiver of Anariel, posted in the spoiler below. The change here would be "quiver" to "bandoleer" and "arrow(s)" to "dagger(s)".

Quiver of Anariel

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

Thankfully the article is saved here https://web.archive.org/web/20070401150041/http:/ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats since WOTC decided to delete the original posting.


Other magic items you may want to look into:
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX)

Here is some light reading that may help you with the more Rogue based parts of the build.
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

[Efrate]

I believe your crit multipliers are off, assuming keen or imp crit since you cannot do both, you get a 3 from knife fighter which either is a static reduction after improved crit or takes an 18 to 20 kukri to 15 to 20, then drops that 3 to 12 to 20. Or reduce then doubles that to 10 to 20. Not sure how you getting 9.

Your 3d4 only applies vs. sneak attackable targets and is merely and average 7.5 damage. Tempest merely gives you a tiny amount of AC, your -2 from knife fighter is not reduced by bloodclaw nor tempest. You are full BaB already so it does nothing for you.

Crit fish with energy damage isnt great, resistances hurt a lot, there are better things on crit. The brilliant energy bit is nice so you have a good chance to hit on most attacks. However at a gestalt that high I imagine cr 17 is the lowest fight you will face, I would expect 19 or 20. DR is also going to be highly specific and negate a lot of damage since it's a bunch of small attacks and DR applies to each one separately, same with your rend.

As for damage you should able to drop an appropriate CR (17ish or higher) in two rounds. By yourself.

[Thurbane]

Here's my quick-and-dirty home-brew PrC, condensed down to 5 levels. I've tried to make it appealing to rogues, fighters and/or martial adepts.

Knife Fighter

Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Weapon Focus (any knife-like weapon*), Two-Weapon Fighting
*Knife-like weapons include: barbed dagger, dagger, desert throwing knife, drow long knife, gehennan lancet, gnome quickrazor, punching dagger, jambiya, kukri, ocanthus knife, panther claw, stump knife, and triple dagger.
At the DMs option, he may expand this selection to include the siangham, sai, or other light weapons similar in form or function to knives or daggers.

Hit die: d8

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Listen, Martial Lore, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope.



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
Dagger defense, damage bonus +1d6


2nd
+2
+2
+2
+0
Bonus feat, magic weapon


3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Damage bonus +2d6


4th
+4
+4
+4
+1
Bonus feat, greater magic weapon


5th
+5
+4
+4
+1
Damage bonus +3d6, phantom knife




Class Features

You add your full knife fighter levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known.

Dagger Defense: While wearing light armor or no armor, and wielding either a knife-like weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, or a knife-like weapon in each hand, the knife fighter adds his intelligence bonus to his armor class (up to a maximum bonus equal to his class level).

Damage Bonus: At 1st level, the extra damage you deal with your sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike ability increases by 1d6. If you have more than one of these abilities, only one ability gains this increase (choose each time you gain this benefit). Your sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike damage increases by another 1d6 at 3rd level and 5th level.

Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, and again at 4th level, the knife fighter may select a bonus feat for which he qualifies, drawn from the fighter bonus feat list. His knife fighter levels stack with fighter levels (if any) to determine what feats he can select. For instance, a Rogue 7/Knife Fighter 4 could select Weapon Specialization as his 4th level bonus feat.

Magic Weapon (Sp): Beginning at 2nd level, once per day per class level, the knife fighter may use Magic Weapon on any knife-like weapon he holds. Caster level is equal to his class level +5. At 4th level, the effect becomes equivalent to a Greater Magic Weapon spell.

Phantom Knife (Su): At 5th level, the knife fighter can temporarily imbue any knife-like weapon(s) he holds with the ghost touch and brilliant weapon properties. This ability functions for a total of 5 minutes per day, and can be broken up into 1 minute increments. If the knife fighter drops, releases, stows, or throws any weapon under this effect, it loses this property at the end of his turn.

[Venger]

I have never heard of any of those exotic weapons. I checked most of them but could not find stats for the close fighting blade, panther claw, or triple dagger. Do you have sources so I can satisfy my curiosity?

[Thurbane]

I have never heard of any of those exotic weapons. I checked most of them but could not find stats for the close fighting blade, panther claw, or triple dagger. Do you have sources so I can satisfy my curiosity?

RotW (close fighting blade - which is actually a weapon mod, rather than its own weapon now that I double check), and A&EG (panther claw & triple dagger).

[gorfnab]

I have never heard of any of those exotic weapons. I checked most of them but could not find stats for the close fighting blade, panther claw, or triple dagger. Do you have sources so I can satisfy my curiosity?
Those blades and many many more are listed in this Dagger specific handbook: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger
(https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810-The-Subtle-Knife-Options-for-Players-and-DMs-using-the-Dagger)